Virtualize vs. Containerize (Which should I choose?)

Should I virtualize this? Should I containerize this? These are great questions to ask yourself when spinning up self-hosted services in your Homelab environment. We'll review my previous video (20 Ways to Use a Virtual Machine (and other ideas for your homelab • 20 Ways to Use a Virtu... ) and decide which should run in a Docker container, which should be virtualized with Proxmox, and which should run on hardware as bare metal.
Video Notes: technotim.live/posts/virtuali...
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00:00 - Intro
00:32 - Why
01:19 - Definitions
02:35 - Should I Containerize this countdown
13:16 - My Choice
Still Want to Virtualize? - • 20 Ways to Use a Virtu...
Thanks AGAIN to these great products for existing.
Distrowatch: distrowatch.com/
Ubuntu: ubuntu.com/
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Wordpress: wordpress.com/
Kong: konghq.com/
Blue Iris: blueirissoftware.com/
ZoneMinder: zoneminder.com/
Plex: www.plex.tv/
pfsense: www.pfsense.org/download/
Unify: www.ui.com/
OpenVPN: openvpn.net/vpn-server/
Rancher: rancher.com/
Kubernetes: kubernetes.io/
Docker: www.docker.com/
FreeNAS: www.freenas.org/
Pi-hole: pi-hole.net/
NextCloud: nextcloud.com/
FileZilla: filezilla-project.org/
Grafana: grafana.com/
Backblaze: secure.backblaze.com/r/01vnb8
UrBackup: www.urbackup.org/
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⏯ Recommended Videos ⏯
► 20 Ways to Use a Virtual Machine (and other ideas for your homelab) • 20 Ways to Use a Virtu...
► Remote Gaming with Promox • Remote Gaming! (and Vi...
► Let's Build a Discord Bot Using DiscordJS - Moderator Bot • Let's Build a Discord ...
#Homelab #Containerization #Virtualization #SelfHosting #Proxmox #Docker #Kubernetes #Rancher
Thank you for watching!

[@TechnoTim]

Have you started containerizing your services? Or are you virtualizing them? BTW, if you're new here, welcome! Be sure to subscribe for more content like this! 🚀

[@jumpman1823]

I containerize qbittorrent. But I realize that it uses the web UI which doesn't have several features of the desktop version. Namely, renaming folders which is a deal breaker feature for me. Cheers Tim.

[@adimmx8928]

Hi, i just managed to install proxmox, had a little headake with it because it did not recognize network card, but all its solved. I did not containerized my apps, i need a sql server ,nginx with php, and a python enviroment. Right now for test purposes i install a ubuntu vm, with all my services on it. I was wondering if i can get better performance by splitting mysql in one lxc container and nginx&php in another, and python api in another. I found out that ubuntu in vm with liquorix kernel delivers bettter performance then stock kernel. Also i would like to passtrough the gpu for ML purposes and i guess for this i need a VM.

[@barefooter2222]

I apologize if you've already covered this elsewhere, but I love the idea of docker, but I try to segment my network such that my virtual machines are on different VLANs for DMZ, Lab, IoT, etc. If I'm looking to convert some services over to docker, how would you set this up? I have some existing pfSense VMs that will firewall off traffic from these environments, so I'd like to have docker containers running on those VLANs such that they are separate. Hopefully this all makes sense, but some services I just wouldn't like to containerize together such as an external SFTP server and an internal Gitlab instance where I have code. How would you tackle this? Multiple Docker VMs?

[@barefooter2222]

Also, loving your content so far. Just discovered you and you have some awesome videos!

[@Dorff_Meister]

I used VMs for my services for a while, but for several years have had a vast preference for containers. Using docker-compose has made migrations to new servers or even moving just a single container so easy - I generally just need the compose stanza(s) and the data folder.

[@Weirj]

You are making some of the best Docker / Container videos on KZbin right now

[@TechnoTim]

Thank you!

[@whylde7834]

Im a new homelab guy. And my head is spinning! I appreciate these videos very much

[@davidg4512]

The database docker images are so bomb. No longer do you need to install a sql front end or learn sql commands to make databases. Just add the config in the docker-compose and call it a day.

[@TechnoTim]

I totally should switch. Thanks for confirming!

[@JasonTaylor-po5xc]

The answer is really both. The ironic thing about Docker (containers) is that technically it isn't virtualization, however you often need to run Docker within a virtual machine - if you run on Windows or Mac. Even in the web (cloud), the vast majority of Docker containers are running in a virtualized Linux environment in order to share hardware resources. Yes, technically you _can_ request a dedicated host, but those cost a lot of money and you lose the dynamic nature of cloud computing (they require a time commitment). Also, not everything belongs in a container - especially stuff that requires a lot of state changes (local storage). Yes, technically you _can_ do it, but you really introducing a lot of complexity for little benefit. Finally, I've moved on from containerization as my default approach for software deployment - instead, I consider cloud-native solutions like functions as a service (e.g. AWS Lambda) before containers. You need to have a compelling reason to use containers, just like a compelling reason to use virtualization, and even more so for bare metal. They are all tools and have their place.

[@gwojcieszczuk]

Containerisation is just a method of packaging and sandboxing software.

[@taqveerdoha3609]

Quality content! Your production levels are getting insane

[@TechnoTim]

Thank you so much!

[@OMGTheCloud]

I love this topic... thanks for covering it! Containers are so much easier to manage than people often give credit for. 👍

[@nyanates]

These virtualization vids are really helpful at explaining this stuff. I recently bought a beefy Synology NAS and, while maybe there isn’t the total flexibility that’s available in your topology, there sure is enough to apply the concepts you’re explaining here. Tnx much for these excellent vids.

[@michaelcooper5490]

Great Job Tim thank you for your time.

[@cryptolobo2273]

Great discussion that is still valid to this day. Trying to make a decision right now with 4 tiny form factor nodes.

[@JPEO]

Thanks for the informative notes.

[@scottgilsdorf2938]

You left me with so many fun things to consider! I've chosen to start virtualization and have just virtualized my 1st kali image. I ultimately am looking to find a way to isolate a system as securely as I possibly with minimal administration! Love the channel! Scott

[@TechnoTim]

Glad I could help! thank you and welcome!

[@_rainaa]

Can try Kasm Workspaces

[@quinncasey120]

I read the 9.2k subs as 9.2M and didn't think twice. Great vid, lots to binge through now.

[@TechnoTim]

Thank you so much! Maybe one day. I am still new!

[@lentilgod58]

This is EXACTLY what i was looking for!! Holy moly you're awesome!

[@stianberghansen]

Recently started my homelab journey with a mini-itx setup (city living is tough on space), and your videos has been a huge help. Appreciate you spreading the knowledge and that you took the time to share how you make decisions in your home lab. Super helpful!

[@TechnoTim]

Glad to help! Sounds like a great little setup!

[@LThiagoCampos]

Love the background music, so chill!!

[@NinjAaaron87]

Fantastic breakdown, and great video. Thanks!

[@calicomorgan2408]

I'm looking to migrate to a rack mount lab once money permits. Right now I'm running an unRaid machine that started as a NAS but now has so many Dockers doing all my media management and even some game hosting. I'm a complete and utter novice at this stuff and it's been my only experience so far. Excited and terrified to get a more organized home lab together, and add a seedbox and VM box! Only every ran Dockers through the unRaid GUI, and haven't played with VMs at all.

[@joshharding6925]

Thanks for adding the thought process with this video. I'm about to spin up a Plex server on Proxmox and pass thru the GPU for transcoding, but I'm thinking about running Plex as a container now

[@TechnoTim]

Glad it helped!

[@Lunolux]

great video, thx i start using VM just because i hated installing many developpement tool (visual studio, sql server, mysql, wamp, c#, net framework, python, nodejs etc) on my main computer that i dont use... when i'm not developping and dont like it, so when i hear about virtual machine, i try it and love it then i got a raspberry pi and install docker, and many thing become more easy, like installing database, mariadb, mysql etc it's just so easy that i can create a container just to test and delete it in the end of the day i hear about proxmox and it seem very interesting

[@sylvaindecrom]

Thanks Tim, I was just wondering if it would be best to virtualize my docker server, question answered. Your container > virtual > bare metal logic makes a ton of sense IMHO

[@JuanLopez-db4cc]

Really Enjoying your videos! Thanks for your effort and commitment. Great things will happen.

[@TechnoTim]

Hope so!

[@tahakatroussi2489]

أز غف 😬😈😉😡😠

[@NateSmithIsHere]

I use containers and virtualization together is most scenarios. Mainly virtualization for the infrastructure and containers for the apps. My home lab runs Server 2019 Datacenter S2D Hyperconverged Cluster. I use docker on linux VM's and Windows VM's for the apps.

[@sanjeewasamaranayake]

Another great video. You are clearing lot of confusion around

[@TechnoTim]

Glad to hear it!

[@groto27]

Great video! I am going to start using Docker for the first time. My question is - what is the overhead like if you are virtualizing Docker because then you have your hardware with hypervisor with a Virtual machine on top of that with the Docker administration on top of that with the actual container on top of that?

[@randleqgod]

Thank you for the Docker content. I containerized Sab, Sonarr and Radarr. No need for Mono dependencies either. The deployment with Rancher is wayyy better. Now i'm wondering what else I can do lol.

[@TechnoTim]

Thank you! I've got a whole list of content for containerizing :)

[@Dorff_Meister]

Can I run it in a container? Run it in a container and always with docker-compose. Thanks for sharing your thought process, helpful!

[@sawwwru]

This is the best channel on KZbin. Learned alot from you boss!

[@TechnoTim]

Thank you!

[@kyleleblancvlogs3820]

This helped a TON thanks

[@buyminers7450]

Great video, thanks for the tips!

[@TechnoTim]

Glad it was helpful!

[@ejbully]

Damn. Thank you well organized source of ideas

[@TechnoTim]

Thank you!

[@whatwhat-777]

man you really tell everything with great value and information....you deserve 1 million subscribers......love you man.....love from India

[@TechnoTim]

Thank you so much 😀

[@DJgregBrown]

I been thinking of turning my mini-micro itx size PC to a on all the time server I can watch media on as well and gain access to my file out side of home. As well as cloud services like a nextcloud instance so I can work outside of home on travels. It made it simple if it can be Containerised do it, if it run on it on kernel/OS VM it, an only baremetal if it need direct barebones hard ware. Logic I can get. I mostly going to podman for my containers. I never know you could do that with the nic for Pi hole filtering, this is something I need to look more into as great way of network monitoring as well.With sending out on a small device to run a server running such a light task.

[@BigBoiBalu]

Thank you 😊

[@ramhee2789]

Cool video. I mostly agree but for security reasons I'd go for Bare Metal Firewall when possible. I personally run a Dell R620 for my pfSense.

[@TechnoTim]

Thanks for the comment! I have a Dell R710 and love it. Curious to know why bare metal would be more secure? At the end of the day, they are running the same OS (bare metal vs. guest os)

[@igordasunddas3377]

Great! My requirement is to have a NAS that I can tinker around with, but I want a bit of storage managed and Docker for the most part. Since my server is rather slow, I won't need to ever passthrough a GPU. But I figured, that while I might achieve all I want using Ubuntu Server (which I am kinda the most familiar with), I could use Proxmox for VM and containers, though it's a bummer, that Proxmox only supports LXC containers out of the box, because wouldn't really want to spin up another machine just for Docker containers. My main issue with all that is, that if I use TrueNAS (Scale), I'd get most of what I need, but would have to reformat everything (I currently have a software RAID and a backup HDD and the latter is in XFS). And my main issue with Ubuntu is, that I usually need to do stuff using SSH, because e.g. Cockpit is somewhat not as integrated as the UIs of dedicated distributions such as unRAID and TrueNAS. So I am kinda stuck trying to figure out what I am okay with using...

[@julianlemmerich1732]

I am now getting around to looking into docker. But since I have the horses to not have to worry about the performance overhead of Virtualizing, now containerizing my services seems like a lot of work for not much winning. Also restoring, checkpointing and moving around the VMs works right now.

[@TechnoTim]

use what works best for you! containers use a lot less resources and less operating systems to manage. With VMs is 1:1 and with containers it's 1:many.

[@chromerims]

Jolly divine. Thank you. 👍 Among just the things mentioned in this video, I heard that the sole bare metal item you have is Proxmox. I wonder, is that correct? Cordially yours.

[@Alan-ps5iv]

Virtualizing the firewall and using a PCI dual nic card worked great !

[@TechnoTim]

Very nice! Great work!

[@JamesMyatt1]

Great video. Do you have a video on where LXC fits into this?

[@salaciouscreations4323]

I went down the proxmox route. And built a server and thought oh I might be able to have 2 VMS. It's just used for storage or functions for the house. To my amazement the 3rd gen i7 supports vts-d immou numa aesni. And it barely sweats with Pfsense Open media vault Pihole Pia gateway Deluge using pia gateway Openvpn server Postgresql davinci resolve Mariadb Plex Airsonic I still got an easy 16gb left. All the containers mount folders in open media valut on boot so it's a self contained eco system. Even the wife is happy at how much function it's given us. Thank you for your videos.

[@TechnoTim]

Thank you! Sound like a sweet setup!

[@skethvagabond723]

Mind blown 🤯

[@YannMetalhead]

Good video.

[@djKenpLan09]

Another great video!

[@fabsync]

Tim thanks a lot for your vídeos man! I have a situation.. I am planning to set up a website from a home server (on a 1 gbs) to perform machine learning.. with s3 bucket to backup files.. I am trying to decide if I should use proxmox or just ubuntu server .. what would you recommend..?

[@esra_erimez]

How does this channel not have millions of subscribers?!

[@TechnoTim]

Maybe one day!

[@jeffreyplum5259]

There is a hole in the container management on Ubuntu's Cockpit server management system. Ubuntu removed the prior container control module from Ubuntu 20.04. The podman based replacement is not ready for use. One may use the ubuntu 19.10 package, but that will have a limited support lifetime. Cockpit on 20.04 does have VM control abilities. A Cockpit ubunu VM can a container management system. Docker /Rancher, etc. Here you mix a VM with a container system because a pure container system is just not ready yet. Containers seem to stretch the limited thread count on older desktop/laptop systems. I find 4 real cores with no hyperthreading is the server sweet spot for my budget. SSDs and full Ram loads work around my limited thread budget. The Pi 4b 8GB version seems a nice container platform, using my techniques. I can see a Pi replaxcing some of my older systems, either directly or via emulation.

[@lidbergtech]

GOAT! Thanks!

[@dukeofearl8078]

The topic of LXC vs Docker would be interesting.

[@akidone]

Second that, would love to hear your thoughts

[@SchoolforHackers]

Brilliant.

[@mauricioocampo8957]

Thanks for the video and explanations. I am still confused when you say containerize because if you don't say docker, I don't know if you mean a container in proxmox with ubuntu in it and then what you need on top. For example, how would you containerize Nextcloud, a web server, and a VPN server? that is what I need to create and seems I can containerize all but I am not sure if using docker in proxmox and can I run them all in the same container? Thanks in advance

[@adimmx8928]

Hi , thanks for this quality content, im in the process of building a 12/24 core pc (3900x) 16g rams, and i need to run nginx,php, sql server, a custom api writed pyhton3 , and a win 10 machine and a win7 machie. How would you o this for maximum performance? Thanks!

[@fmj_556]

Great advice! Thanks! I’m just learning all this virtualization stuff. I have 2 old hp servers and picking up a better one tomorrow with virtualization in mind. Thanks again?

[@TechnoTim]

Good luck with the new server! We’ll be here to help!

[@fmj_556]

Techno Tim actually the other day I picked up a Supermicro SuperServer 4029GP-TRT2 Server that handle 10 gpu’s and dual xeon e52620 scalable CPU’s with 8 cores each. Let’s see how this turns out.

[@axelolaussonholtenas5087]

@@fmj_556 Waaaww that's something i hope i have money for

[@fernounyabdelbasset2912]

Thanks for the video , but 1:50 isn't proxmos a bare metal hypervisor that run on top of host machine directly without host os between ??

[@hilkomenke8340]

Thanks for your video's. Makes things very easy to understand! Maybe it's already mentioned and answered but I didn't find it in the comments below, but I didn't understand No. 10 Docker Rancher Kubernetes unfortunaly. Did you make a separate video on that, or answer a similar question? If not can you maybe try to explain once more? Do you have two physically different devices, one with virtualized Ubuntu with Docker on top of it, and one with Ubunta bare metal with Proxmox installed on it? I did try to read into this online and found the following but I also do not understand what they try to say ... "Docker aims at running a single application in an isolated, self-contained environment. These are generally referred to as “Application Containers”, rather than “System Containers”. You manage a Docker instance from the host, using the Docker Engine command line interface. It is not recommended to run docker directly on your Proxmox VE host. Note: If you want to run application containers, for example, Docker images, it is best to run them inside a Proxmox Qemu VM."

[@TechnoTim]

Hi! I always start with an Ubuntu machine and install docker and kubernetes from there. I never install or run anything directly on my hypervisor. I just let my hypervisor be a hypervisor. See my docker rancher video!

[@davidg4512]

Perfect video.

[@TechnoTim]

Glad you liked it

[@AyoolaBoyejo]

This is awesome, I'm wondering if there is a VoIP app that could be containerised for a simple home intercom system.

[@TechnoTim]

Great idea! I think so!

[@AyoolaBoyejo]

@@TechnoTim 3CX seems great but I doubt it's docker compatible. It would be nice if you could find one.

[@leamon9024]

Hello Tim, awesome video! I have a similar question. I would like to set up a 5 nodes kubernetes cluster for "production environment", for example, I have one bare metal, and I would like to run 2 master nodes and 3 worker nodes on top of that physical machine. But I'm hesitating whether I should virtualize the nodes by using vagrant or containerize the nodes by using lxc/lxd. After the nodes are ready, use rancher or rke to set up the kubernetes environment. Could you give me some suggestion? Thanks

[@ALN2006]

nice fresh channel, subscribed clicked the bell icon, but content and postproduction is PRO, i`m interested in containerization vs virtualization vs bare metal, if docker share os and VM don`t maybe most of the things should go for containerization if it is possible, rest VM and some BM, i`am just a newbie and i need to learn more but latest and greatest technologies to get to IT

[@TechnoTim]

Thank you so much! Welcome! You can do it!

[@thomasschneider5983]

Can you please share some info regarding the containerized home network solution with UniFi Network?

[@dinkidink5912]

I have a NAS running a barebones Debian install, soon I'll get a bit of a homelab up and running, I considered consolidating the NAS into it but decided against it. You said you have had no issues running ZFS inside a VM but I think ZFS should probably be run bare metal, this means I can also use an existing mATX mobo for the new server and not use up one of the few pcie slots for the SAS card currently in the NAS. I've also been curious about TrueNAS but it's honestly a bit overkill for a basic file server, a while ago the OS SSD in my NAS died. I'd fully documented setting up my NAS the first time and it took me about 1 hour to reinstall Debian and get everything set up again. I wonder with your extensive homelab setup what you actually need from TrueNAS?

[@Geek_Chef]

Fantastic content....Just amazing! Question....I only have one server... 6 cores 32 gig ram....so I put proxmox on it and installed Home Assistant in a virtual machine. So if I wanted to add more items that are docker based....I would need to install a lInux VM and install Docker and then install docker containers in that VM under docker....correct...?

[@TechnoTim]

Geek_Chef thank you! That’s absolutely corect! If you want to try Rancher to manage docker, check out that video!

[@axelolaussonholtenas5087]

You can also install it on "proxmox" cause it's debian but it will maybe not be as secure as in a vm

[@bertnijhof5413]

I virtualized everything with Virtualbox and if I want to containerize, I look for a snap. I can afford "overhead", because I run a modern Ryzen PC. My PC is based on the 2nd slowest Ryzen ever (Ryzen 3 2200G) and it has a whopping 16GB of DDR4 (3000MHz). The host OS is a minimal install of Ubuntu 22.04 LTS running on OpenZFS 2.1.4. I have 6 main VMs for the following areas: Communication; Banking & PayPal; Multimedia; Experiments & Try-out; Jukebox and Windows stuff. It is fun, because I run e.g: - An encrypted version of Ubuntu 16.04 ESM till Apr 2026 with 2 containers (snaps) with the newest stable versions of Firefox and LibreOffice. - I installed and activated a VM in March 2010, that same Windows XP Home VM is still running as my jukebox, it survived 3 PCs and 4 CPUs :) - Performance e.g. Xubuntu 22.04 LTS boots in

[@victorauyeung9057]

Just discovered your awesome videos and starting out on virtualization at home with Proxmox. I already have HassOS as a VM and PiHole as a LXC. Working on Plex (from one of your videos) and installed Ubuntu (from one of your previous videos). I was wondering why didn't you go with LXC instead? Wouldn't it be easier to manage backups of containers via Proxmox? I do that with HassOS as a VM into my NAS. Also, I need a place to run backups between 2 NAS, do you have any recommendations on good open source freeware backup software for Linux? I would like to turn off one of the NAS after the backup is done to isolate it from the network in case of ransomware.

[@TechnoTim]

This is a great question that comes up in my live stream a ton, join sometime and ask me there!

[@ayas007utube]

would be good if you can share how much compute these apps/pieces of software take from your CPU i.e. CPU Geekbench score of 10000 pfsense would take ~ 2000, NAS would take 2000, containers would take xxx and so on. This gives visibility of typical requirements of apps as well as helps decided how much horsepower is needed in one server.

[@radunastase1865]

Hi, I am trying to virtualize pfsense in proxmox and use the homelab server as a router, nas, etc. My main concern is how to change the proxmox host to be accessible only in the LAN network of the virtualized pfsense. So the setup will be like this ISP -> Proxmox Machine that will have Pfsense, TrueNas, etc as VMs. I have a 10gb intel x550-t2 network card so I can plug the ISP into one nic the then via pfsense provide access to the home network through the other nic.

[@balsalmalberto8086]

I have Pi-hole on a raspberry pi zero that's connected with ethernet for many years but I added a secondary Pi-hole lxc on proxmox and also AdGuard on proxmox lxc because why not.

[@khaledbalharith953]

شكرا على المحتوى المميز 🌹❤️

[@TechnoTim]

Thank you!

[@alexmih6641]

I have PiHole container on Pi4 toghether with Deluge and minidlna with a 3Tb usb3 drive. It works flowless!(I have active cooling )

[@TechnoTim]

Nice!

[@alexmih6641]

@@TechnoTim I had a wierd issue last week, somhow docker got updated automaticaly with ubuntu updates and reset to default the path to containers/images of docker. Previously I have set the path to the usb3 hard drive because the sd card is to slow for docker. It took me sme time to figure it out. :) I thought that someone deleted all my containers, images, evrything docker related. :)

[@MrJosch700]

As an IT admin I would strongly disagree with a lot of choices. Docker isn't the be all and end all. Basically if it needs persistence use an VM or an LXC much better for those needs. Docker is good for some things but not for something like databases, especially if it's gonna be high available. Webservers are kind of in between. More or less down to preference. I would prefer an VM or LXC because it's much easier to change something on the fly. What I would basically always run on Docker are special Java Services for example. Other than that you know that proxmox can handle zfs by itself? Or other way around you can use TrueNAS to virtualize?

[@TechnoTim]

Thanks! I’ve never heard of any company using LXC in their environment 😀. Not saying there aren’t but most companies containerizing are using that or containerd with kubernetes

[@MrJosch700]

@@TechnoTim LXCs are great. It's basically an VM but much more light weight. I would love to use it more but as it always is you are stuck with old stuff. Nowadays it makes much more sense to just setup proxmox and use that as an hypervisor than even vmware I would argue. Lots of great clusterin options an GUI for ZFS and Ceph. And I love LXC. Much more flexible than Docker. I would never determine a database on docker production ready for example.

[@donnieb390]

Really enjoying your presentation in the videos. You are superrrrrr comfortable to watch. Good vibes!

[@TechnoTim]

Thank you so much! Got something coming soon that’s awesome!

[@janosekadam]

Hi, really good video :-)

[@davidg4512]

4:37: threads and cords, lol

[@TechnoTim]

lol I meant cores and I had a subtitle fix for it but I ended up putting B Roll over it

[@nicolasvillafan]

Tim May I ask you; Do you recommend having a limit amount of containers per disk? What I mean is if is better having a 500GB SSD for all our docker services or is better to have 4 120GB SSD and split the services across those Disks?

[@TechnoTim]

Why not both? Redundant fast disks.

[@geterdnboy]

Do you run all your dockers on one vm? What flavor ? Im just getting in to home lab and starting with unraid because it seemed easy to use docker but am now looking in to proxmox but it seems dockers are a little harder to use with proxmox. I dont even know if i will need to use dockers because my main goal is gamming servers with some other functions on the side.

[@TechnoTim]

Thanks! I use Ubuntu for almost all of my VMs! I have lots of videos on this stuff! If you're new with Docker, check out Portainer too!

[@skalif8469]

Good luck applying it on enterprise environment

[@TechnoTim]

Most enterprises I’ve worked at have been containerizing with kubernetes for years!

[@EmilePolka]

im actually virtualizing my firewall in the past, but doing certain things on the host machine can severely effect your firewall (thus cutting access to internet and your wife and kids will be angry at you). me here running baremetal, to be honest, after I offload it, the CPU usage on my host VM severely decreased. and for some oddball reason, my power consumption is actually 30watts lower despite running another rack to run dedicated pfsense firewall (r210-ii).

[@TechnoTim]

I totally agree, that's why I try not to reboot this machine.

[@AyoolaBoyejo]

Exactly my point too. In my own case, I run multiple VLANS and each terminate on separate nic on pfSense for insane DMZ setup. It's just best to have a separate low powered device for pfSense.

[@davidg4512]

Well, I run all my docker containers on VMs, on proxmox. It's awesome.

[@longnamedude3947]

Docker containers inside of a Virtual Machine running on top of Proxmox.... My only question is, what is the performance like? Most people would question why, I'm not asking that question because I assume you've done so for security reasons?

[@longnamedude3947]

@Sussudio Gaming So, You run Proxmox as your "Host OS" and then you run a variety of virtual machines for the various tasks and utilities that you wish to run on that hardware. pfSense for your networking requirements with a Network Card passed through from the Proxmox "Host OS". Windows (10?) virtual machine with a GPU passed through from the Proxmox "Host OS" for gaming. Ubuntu Server virtual machine with Docker installed onto it for running all of your containers (This is also running on top of the Proxmox "Host OS" just like the other two previously mentioned VM's) I'm actually really interested in VM's, containerisation and overall consolidation of many sets of hardware into one system. In my personal experience I've always had performance issues with Virtual Machines and I've been trying to find someone or somewhere that can help me out with those issues. For reference the systems I've tried VM's on are powered by either Dual Intel Xeon X5650's with 48GB of RAM, or, AMD Ryzen Threadripper 1950X with 64GB of RAM. If there's a way to consolidate my various physical machines to just these two sets of hardware then I'd love to find out more information. If you are willing to reach out to discuss this further then reply here and I'll provide my discord username so we can discuss things in more detail if at all possible :)

[@longnamedude3947]

@Sussudio Gaming I'll drop by :)

[@tbhinteractieve]

Why? You can run containers in proxmox.

[@longnamedude3947]

@@tbhinteractieve Isolation, depending on what your use case is, how you have it all set up, and what your intended hardware is it may make sense to add an additional layer of isolation and obfuscation. It isn't a bullet proof solution, and it has drawbacks, but it's always better to be safe than sorry.

[@fitlikeaglove7396]

Can you explain a little on backing up using backblaze? I've wanted to do this sort of setup but Backblaze has actually stopped me as I use it for my backups and it only runs on windows for local disks. How did you get this to work in a VM? Are you just duplicating the files to the Windows VM and Backblaze just uploads this? That would get rather expensive local storage wise, basically a super crude RAID 1.

[@TechnoTim]

You could set up ISCSI on Windows with FreeNAS. I might even have a video ;)

[@kylecurry6841]

Tim I know this is an older video, but I don't think that makes any difference to the concepts discussed here concerning PVE, but did you highlight Docker (over LXC) due to it's streamlined popularity with many of the ready to go services vs LXC? I would agree LXC vs Docker tends to be more hands on, but I've come to use it quite a bit since having PVE at home and work. Because LXC is an extension of the host OS, I tend to use LXC for local network single service applications (or when I need a guest system to have direct file access with PVE), and even though I do spinup full VM's for single service applications, I usually go for a full VM if the application is web facing given the potential for container security has less isolation in theory (at least with LXC) vs VM's ..I know Docker is a slightly different kind of containerization compared with LXC so you can't compare them whole handedly.

[@TechnoTim]

Thank you for the comment and I agree! I do see a use case for using LXC over virtual machines. I have been kicking the tires on using it instead of a VM in some cases! Thank you for stopping by!

[@tannerpinney3608]

So all the things you choose to containerize, are still running on a proxmox OS? So it's Proxmox-Ubuntu-Docker(KuBernetes+Rancher) on same ubuntu install? So all of your containerization exists on a single ubuntu instance within proxmox? Great videos, just trying to plan a good strategy to install Proxmox on my old PC for a server + other stoof. You've done a great job of spreading solid info for us noobs!

[@TechnoTim]

Proxmox->ubuntu->docker/rancher/kubernetes

[@kickstartnetworking3347]

Given the low prices of hardware and the fact that I can run multiples os such as windows server 2019/2022 windows 10/11 and Linux in my home pc, which is not that powerfull as a server, I'd rather virtualization and the full control that a virtual machine provides, what if you need ADDS or GPOs, what if you have an application that runs only in windows, will you implement both?, containers and virtualization?

[@piotrwojcik9112]

VM for games (let's say for steam's remote play) may not be sometimes the best idea. Anticheat protected games do not like hypervisors and have valid arguments for doing so. Recipe for instant ban. Except for that, congrats - really useful for people planning to rebuld their it gears

[@hydrokat143]

You should be fine with single player games. It's not the best experience to play online games especially the competitive ones through remote play anyway. The added latency - both network and input latency - will put you at a disadvantage.

[@piotrwojcik9112]

@@hydrokat143 Remote play seems to be bad example here - as it is rather consistently outperformed by other streaming solutions (e.g. Parsec or nvidia gamestream-based ones). Nevertheless, latency will always plague network-based remote streaming at some capacity. Speaking of gamestream, I would now consider just contenerizing Sunshine for remote linux-based gaming if somebody is willing to accept only Proton-compatible titles.

[@hydrokat143]

@@piotrwojcik9112 i have only tried remote play. It’s more like a glorified livestream to me. Frames are okay but the input lag is too much to be playable. I have not tried anything else since. maybe because I have no use case for it personally.

[@estebansierra934]

You make such amazing and informative videos. Please keep making videos, do you have patreon?

[@TechnoTim]

Thank you! I do! www.patreon.com/technotim

[@apathyzen9730]

You haven't mentioned virtual machine's ability for live migration between physical servers, for example with PVE/QEMU. Obviously it may be critical for production environments. Guest escape is a bigger security concern for containers than virtual machines. Also virtual machines provide better guest performance isolation if, for example, you sell host resources to different clients and don't want one of guests heavily affect your server and other guests performance-wise. And, as I've mentioned in the comment to one of your videos on Proxmox initial setup, containers are hands down better for IO-heavy applications.

[@TechnoTim]

Thanks for the tips!

[@PC_CERTIFIED]

Well you said it for me I was looking for a comment yours fits the bill My biggest concern was backing up data and migration The way I look at containers as I look at them as a ship on the water considering I do a transportation nowadays that if the ship has a hole in the haul AKA a physical hardware failure everything is going down and I haven't seen anything about high availability or offline storage to bring it back up quickly Kind of the same thing with software if the operating system goes bad or has a bug that's not docker's fault you're still going down pretty much ships today or run by software My biggest thing was why are we going backwards we got away from offering systems on one machine not only to save resources such as space and inventory but also money for the power bill as an example and the ability to move stuff over and back up in real time From my understanding docker runs on top of an operating system which then that is on top of your hardware I understand that they might be higher speed but for what I know it can't back itself up it's not like it's going to say hey we're having a problem or I'm overloaded spin up another server turn it on boot it up let's move this virtual machine over there and while you're doing that I'll start backing up my data to the SAN and or NAS And the last part is I tried to get doctor to run on a raspberry pie it wouldn't do shit whereas with a VM it's a little bit different I believe I've gotten proxmox one time to install on arm which yes I know is not the correct thing to do😂 But now I've seen orange pie five and you can put a 2242 non bottle memory express on them so there is potential especially with eight cores and 16 GB of memory eventually they'll be making 32 they also have a GPU on it and a neural processor for AI stuff and it supports 8K video output I'm assuming that there is some sort of encoding stuff it has for the GPU to do that

[@ejkeebler]

containerizing a lot of stuff, do you just have 1 vm for all of those docker containers and send all your cpu/cores to it? or do you try to separate them out over a couple of vms?

[@chromerims]

Dear friend, TT gives an answer to another commenter named 'Humping Mushroom'. Kindest regards.

[@maherkhalil007]

Hello, Is it safe to offer container VPS to my customers?

[@MatthewHartsuch]

awesome video👍👍

[@TechnoTim]

Thank you!

[@bopal93]

Containers are great except when you have to mount NFS or CIFS on a container. You can't do with that with an unpriviledged container. One solution would be to use privileged containers which I do not know how much secure they are. Can you make a video on how do you handle such issue?

[@jirkav]

Mount it on your host machine and pass it as volume

[@ga_ty5355]

didn't know Jonny Depp can code - what a brilliant actor!

[@rahultech77]

By containerize it, do you mean run docker container, create a deployment inside a kubernetes cluster (which runs a docker image)?

[@blainescroggs9268]

You should do a video on Shinobi! It's so much better than Zoneminder.

[@TechnoTim]

I'll check it out!

[@rashie]

👍👍

[@7MBoosted]

What is your virtualization hardware? If you have one machine its like it has to be some exotic Epyc or Xeon high core count, high pci-e lane setup.

[@TechnoTim]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/aGTNk5atlNNlZqs

[@7MBoosted]

@@TechnoTim that is really nice. Are dual x5870s power hogs? Their so old. But 24 threads can obviously run a lot of services.

[@timtrainage]

Awesome video

[@TechnoTim]

Thanks!

[@default_youtube_profile]

How do you passthrough a GPU to a virtualbox or proxmox running a vm ?

[@TechnoTim]

Check out my GPU passthrough video on proxmox

[@flyby6417]

IF I wanted to build a Proxmox machine that would run all twenty of the containers/VE you mentioned what would be the minimum requirements?

[@TechnoTim]

It depends on what those containers are and how much load they add. I's take a look at this and go form there kit.co/TechnoTim/performance-virtualization-nas-server

[@humpingmushroom2658]

So do I understand correctly that for all your containers you have a single?/dedicated? VM which runs them?

[@TechnoTim]

Hi! I use to, but now I use Rancher and Kubernetes. All containers on one VM is a great start and a good first step into containerization. After that you might want to look into kubernetes! kzbin.info/www/bejne/pXqvlGOvrKmJis0

[@anlongdus]

OT question: what software do you use to blur the background?

[@TechnoTim]

No software, all hardware! kit.co/TechnoTim/4k-youtube-kit

[@davidg4512]

Can I get your input on why you chose not to use zfs baked into proxmox and instead used a freenas vm? It seems like a huge overhead.

[@Alphahydro]

I run my FreeNAS on top of ProxMox. It seems FreeNAS has more of a granular control of the ZFS file system.

[@TechnoTim]

FreeNAS is a NAS first and I need some of the features it provides without hacking at my proxmox server (like iSCIC). FreeNAS makes it easy to set up shares, manage accounts, and even back up my Macs using Time Machine.

[@Alphahydro]

@@TechnoTim Pretty Much