VO2max is Overrated. Myths and Realities for Longevity and Performance

[@SteveMagness]

Thanks for watching. If you'd like to go on a deeper dive, here are a couple resources. I cover a lot of the research in this free article I wrote years ago on VO2max and performance: www.scienceofrunning.com/2009/12/fallacy-of-vo2max-and-vo2max.html I also cover it in my previous book: The Science of Running. If you want to go deeper into the practice of endurance training for performance or health, I write about it frequently in my newsletter: thegrowtheq.ck.page/steve And...if you'd like to support my work, I've got a new book coming out soon called WIN THE INSIDE GAME. Check it out: www.stevemagness.com/win-the-inside-game/ Thanks for watching. I put out new videos on the science of performance every week! Consider subscribing.

[@lukepaulson3428]

Tadej Pogacar, on a recent interview with Attia, said he didn’t know his VO2 max and hasn’t tested it in quite sometime but he guessed it was probably “pretty high”. 😂

[@oneschance]

The algorithm was strong with this one.

[@adrenalinejunkie4788]

Thanks again Steve. Really enjoying this recent series of videos.

[@SteveMagness]

Glad you like them!

[@MrHenreee]

Started "Do Hard Things" recently. Amazing book. It has put a voice to things ive been feeling for years but have not quite been able to pin down.

[@SteveMagness]

Thanks so much. So thrilled that you found it valuable!

[@tak4043]

Long before this VO2 max means longevity became a thing I heard that quad strength was the best predictor. For multitude of reasons, like you're less likely to fall and hurt yourself.

[@lorenheal]

The same with grip strength.

[@lorenheal]

With all of these measurements, it's missing the forest for the trees if you don't remember consistency. Being in great shape for 3 months every year and sedentary the other 9 is not as good for longevity as being in good shape all the time. Walk every day. Practice laying down and standing up, pretending one leg is broken. Do pullups and pushups. Swim. A little variety will boost confidence, keep you interested, and even improve your running.

[@tak4043]

@@lorenheal I'd add as a person who cannot walk every day due to a hip injury that elliptical is a good option. Good elliptical ofc. It should weight over 80kg and have a stride length of at least 50cm. I bought one because I don't like going to the gym and it's the best purchase I've ever done.

[@lucalanz76]

And also Vo2max depends on weight, and weight is correlated with longevity

[@alfredvincent13825]

Great point.

[@ashleyspencer3664]

Correlation vs causation

[@MrSpecialized75]

Oh boy, Peter Attia going to have discussions with you!😅

[@SteveMagness]

Ha! I'd welcome a conversation.

[@andriiboik523]

@@SteveMagnessgreat Do it

[@fool9111z]

Attia is going to have a word with you. LOL

[@4plum]

Great video - during my lab test (inreasibg inclune and speed) my VO2 peaked, then fell, then the technician ended the lab test, not me. Heart rate was 95% of Max HR, not 100%. I really like the combo of sports science and running - just subscribed.

[@jmax9782]

Greg Lemond, who had a super high VO2 max, said it remained very high years after his career ended. He got old, gained weight but still had a high max, interesting. The right physiology coupled with excellent lactate clearing ability and just raw grit and competitive spirit allow the elites to push up such high VO2 max levels. Longevity? Does that mean per event, or career, or years of quality living? I have your book and it's great, nice to put a face to the name- I'm subscribed.

[@amedeocalandriello756]

Thank you for saying the quiet parts out loud. You got my sub. VO2 max is the most overhyped metric in all of sports. If Vo2 max was predictive we wouldn't run races we'd just test physiology and crown a winner. The ultra high Vo2 max guys never perform consistently at the top of the top level... and that's usually because they are lacking in other areas. Like efficiency at higher outputs because they can output aerobically at higher intensity even though they are moving inefficiently. If you are training for your sport property, your Vo2 max (which is predominantly determined by genetics and very slightly effected by training... hence why it plateaus on the longer studies) will land where it needs to be. If you are born with low capacity and can only train up to a Vo2 max of 40... you just weren't born to be an elite endurance athlete.

[@WadeHodges]

Everyone is still overthinking it….. You may have high Vo2, but how well can the rest of the engine use what’s available?

[@Avianthro]

Thinking holistically...Right on! The ultimate question is how well we use that O2 that we consume, and that involves ALL the components of our muscles' aerobic engine and its drive-train.

[@SteveMagness]

Exactly!

[@jeremyleake6868]

I agree VO2 max is over emphasised but important to note it is the maximum oxygen that the body can use. Ie the definition includes usage not just collection and transmission of oxygen. This is why prolonged Z2 workouts that target muscle take-up and usage of oxygen can improve VO2 max as well as Z5 which primarily targets the central system. That said it seems some athletes can sustain output at higher % of.VO2 max and some can get more power out for a given VO2 max. Which is why some pro athletes can compete well with relatively low VO2 maxes (though still much higher than the general population).

[@gracewhite1601]

Interesting, Im doing a cooper test tomorrow. As an older middle distance runner, keeping my vo2 max higher is important as I have seen that it correlates with a faster time. I hit all the work outs for this, speed, races and with a longer time in zone 2

[@MrDjhealth]

The late George Sheehan MD and running guru points out..."You might suspect from the emphasis on cardiopulmonary fitness that major effect of training is on the heart and lungs. Guess again. Exercise does nothing for the lungs: that has been amply proved...Nor does it especially benefit your heart. Running, no matter what you've been told, primarily trains and conditions the muscles. Also "fit" does not mean healthy. Jim Fixx died from a heart attack while jogging at fifty-two. Certainly he was fit. But was he healthy? No, his autopsy revealed coronary arteriosclerosis He ran 37,000 miles and completed several marathons, ran 60 miles per week. Compare jim Fixx to Winston Churchill, who was obese, smoked, overate, and drank excessively yet lived to 91,. No one would describe Churchill as fit, but he was certainly healthy. jim Fixx could run circles around Churchill, but Churchill lived 40 years longer. Health is a state in which all components of the body are functioning properly and there is an absence of disease. Fitness is the ability to perform strenuous work or exercise. Clearly, it is possible to be healthy without being fit and vice versa

[@aieahi1]

Recommend checking out Tim Noakes videos. He’s a proponent of low carb diets for endurance athletes. Despite the time spent training, there are Ironman triathletes who are having heart disease issues. Noakes (and I think the athletes themselves) think it was related to the high carb diets. Many would have competed in the era of the sports bars and other processed foods.

[@kmarech1645]

commenting to save this comment. amazing stuff

[@UCIBME]

The lungs need training for autonomic processing of oxygen.

[@sephiroth127]

The cherrypicking is strong with this comment. You'll always find cases that seem to contradict the studies, what we care about are the numbers. With your logic, you could say that smoking is not bad because there is a smoker who lived until 95.

[@aieahi1]

@@sephiroth127 if n=1, it’s not a study.

[@kwikstep-1]

I am 86 yrs old, male. I never was tested for VO2 max, nor do resistance, nor do any running., nor go the gym. I reach this old age, doing my own exercise of choice. My exercise put emphasis on brain stimulation, socializing and most of all enjoying life exercising. It works for me over the yrs and probably will not work for most of the male population.

[@MD-tx8se]

Hi, enjoying your content here👍 Can you please make a video of how mortal non elite adulst (30 to 50 years old) can improve running performance. One week for example with key structure workouts (for 5km race)🙏 Speed: key workouts for 5km Lt: key workouts... Long runs and anything else as main part of such program?

[@SwimrunFrance]

always super clear Steve , thanks

[@SteveMagness]

Glad you think so!

[@simondavies6270]

Thanks you for putting into context the relative importance of V02 Max, which I agree is often over enthusised has a matker of health far beyond other measurable factors and considerations by longevity experts.

[@SteveMagness]

Thanks! Glad you found it useful.

[@simoneleandro_coach]

absolutely enriched as all i am hearing from you :)

[@SteveMagness]

Wow, thank you!

[@WilesPalladino]

Home run, Steve! The best measure of performance is performance itself.

[@SteveMagness]

Thanks a lot!

[@jyalpert]

The people in the studies with the good vo2 and good longevity were just normal athletes training for performance. I don’t get why the conclusion wasn’t “be an athlete at a healthy weight”

[@pscoop]

Great insight as usual. I also like the light effect from the blinds.

[@SteveMagness]

Awesome, thanks a lot!

[@D56t37-cu7ol]

It isn't about running or general fitness. It's about preventing the age related loss of your micro vascular architecture. Working yourself into hypoxia to stimulate HIF1a and VEGF .... Microvascular disease effects 5% of people age 50 and 100% of people by the age of 90... It also catches the blamb for 45% of dementia ...

[@lsantilli]

Physiological uptake of oxygen by muscles is the best measure, it’s just harder to measure. Two athletes: one has a VO2 max of 80 and one does of 70, but if the oxygen that is being uptakes by the muscles is 25% higher in the 70 VO2 max person you’re going to get a functional outcome that is significantly more. This comes down to numerous things, primarily involving lactate production, utilization and metabolic function that can be influenced by many things (nutrition, genetics, mitochondrial density, etc).

[@geoffreymccann2841]

So ironic I've just dug out Tim Noakes book Lore of running again and are upto that point about V02 max .

[@philipmartin3902]

I've been skeptical about vo2 max, but I'd say the fitness tracker VO2 max numbers are even worse if you play sports or hike with your fitness tracker for the majority of your workouts.

[@LuckyPandaX]

How do we know longevity is not correlated to what VO2MAX is measuring but is correlated to performance?

[@fool9111z]

I kind of agree to some degrees. VO2max is just one biomarker for good health, much as good skin and hairs not turning white. The VO2max-longevity study is all observational study, not intervention study. It's the same as observing the people who live long tend to have good skin and hair greying more slowly. Does it mean if you aim for skin health and hair health, you can improve your life span ? Probably not, if you use skincare products to achieve that. However, I'd say it's still useful. VO2max is just a proxy for run fast. And most people will also rely on running performance to estimate VO2max (12 min cooper test for example) than actually going to the lab to get VO2max measured. That said, even running performance is a health proxy. It's not necessarily can improve your longevity. We have to remember, there is no single biomarker, or a collection of biomarkers can measure the biological age. Biological age is just a concept, unlike the chronological age. And when people die, most of the cells are still alive. And it's that these living cells can no longer function as a whole. The conclusion: yes, still run and do physical exercise. But recognize your run performance and longevity is only associative. There are still a lot of unpredictable factors affecting your longevity, beyond our control in a complex biological system like our body.

[@Slideglideride]

I want to plan out a base running/cycling block for the winter and had a weekly vo2max session planned, but instinctively i just want to ride endurance or tempo, and a lot of volume of it… i dont need to perform for an event, just really enjoy the training. Feel like that session will just hinder my recovery and not really benefit me in this block

[@gracewhite1601]

So, Im competive so will focus on vo2 max training…

[@PerryScanlon]

Wouldn't LT1 and LT2 correlate better with health benefits?

[@gerrysecure5874]

Correlation is not causation. Longevity is caused by balanced health. Maximizing anything including vo2max is not balancing health.

[@sephiroth127]

I guess that's why the biggest boost in longevity is being in the top 25% of VO2Max, because it stagnates after a certain level.

[@gracewhite1601]

Studies prove that a higher vo2 max correlates to longevity as we lose 10% every decade so keeping it higher when younger has it slow down slower when older. Higher vo2 max means more oxygen, better metabolic efficiency, less disease. Its good to know thou that my running can improve at my plateaued VO2 max

[@SteveMagness]

It's not VO2max that is the best correlate to longevity...it's the speed we reach at the end of the test...in other words studies show it's aerobic PERFORMANCE that correlates with VO2max. What this means is it's not just maximum oxygen consumption, it's our running economy, lactate threshold, critical power, and on and on that all add up to contribute. And that's good news. Because while performance declines with age...we can greatly slow the decline with training. Vo2max you can slow too, but it's more fixed than performance.

[@gracewhite1601]

Simland does look at the number in his book, Longevity

[@rly1977]

once I heard the claim that high vo2max is a causal factor for longevity my skeptic alarms went off. first, why do women generally live longer than men, when women also generally have lower VO2maxes? And secondly when you compare animals by VO2max and longevity, it almost seems like an inverse correlation. Also the correlation in these studies doesn't necessarily mean causation. Maybe there is some other factor that contributes to both longevity and high VO2max.

[@radmehrabdolahi1346]

No one said VO2 max is the strongest and single causal factor. What determines women’s longevity is confounded by factors unrelated to VO2 max. And you can’t bring the animal argument here as it doesn’t pertain to humans. What leads to longevity in animals is different to humans as they’re killed by acute triggers whereas most humans today die by chronic diseases

[@tylerbruce5731]

​@@radmehrabdolahi1346 Yes. And women live longer in part due to not engaging in risky activities vs men. Think workplace accidents etc

[@gracewhite1601]

@@radmehrabdolahi1346especially the jabbed

[@glidercoach]

But everyone is different. It takes forever for me to truly warm up. 6 to 7 km for me. If I tried before this I would peak early. Note: I'm a total novice and trying to get super fit. I run about 55km a week and I'm a heart patient (cleared by my doctor). All my times are slow but I don't know if I'm training right. I feel ok. 😊

[@azdhan]

I don’t understand bro! Why did my vo2 max decline despite my physical fitness and cardiovascular fitness, including resting heart rate greatly improve. Also, according to Dr Peter Attia, who is one of the most world renowed and reputable doctors on all things diet, fitness, longevity, exercise and health span, V02 max is one of the best predictors/indicators of healthy lifespan and longevity

[@wagvice1]

Yea and how many studies really test 70 + year olds for MVO2 max if you want to test for "longevity"??

[@PatrickDelorenzi]

“Joe the Jogger” lmao

[@kurthanson7522]

100% having a huge engine is great but it’s not everything.

[@RonnyC98]

I see advice that before a race it’s good to do some VO2 max workouts once a week, 6-4 weeks before a race Is this basically just peaking?

[@bryanspencer4856]

Muscle is a better predictor of longevity. Muscle is medicine

[@SteveMagness]

It's actually not. Depending on what you mean by muscle... Of course we need a baseline of strength to prevent falls, etc. while older. It's important. But cardiovascular fitness is a better predictor.

[@wmp3346]

Matters to me

[@johningham1880]

Fascinating stuff! I am subscribing and going to check out your other stuff. A few thoughts: 1) I did not know the thing about the thing about some people not plateauing. Presumably that 47% of pro cyclists had trained the aerobic function of their muscles to the point where they could use more oxygen than their heart and lungs could deliver. 2) I would have thought LT would have been much more important to Paula for the marathon. I would be interested to know if the same study looked at this, although LT seems like an even more slippery concept the more I look into it. 3) Even if they were testing actual V̇O2 max in the longevity studies, teasing out all the presumed correlations between longevity, biological age, functional performance, comorbidities, and all the possible measures of fitness would be next to impossible in what I presume were observational studies. Very similar to the findings that (off the top of my head) strength/lean muscle is associated with longevity, but spending more than 40 minutes a week on resistance training is negatively correlated.

[@mrjoshuagordon]

vo2 peak (not max) and fractional utilization are very important

[@SteveMagness]

Vo2peak isn't that important in the grand scheme of things, for reasons outlined in the video. It's fine to have the #. But it makes little difference in your training or preparation. Fractional utilization is more useful. But I'd argue you can get the same or better info simply by comparing race distances, or a lactate test. It's even what researchers have moved to when looking at velocity curves/critical velocity testing.

[@olivervarney2032]

Mic clipping sound in all your videos

[@defining.vitality]

I heard it's another scam too.

[@xtrwq]

As an aside, I wonder how do you view running performance nowadays compared to when you wrote Science of Running?

[@SteveMagness]

That's a big question! I think the main thing that has changed is the shoes. Both from a racing and training standpoint, it's shifted performance a bit.

[@toddapplegate3988]

Pull

[@marktapley7571]

Patrick, Attia, Land, Huberman all beat the VO2 horse all the time. Now they will have to come up with a new magic longevity rule

[@defining.vitality]

They are all social media content creators.

[@jamesc6137]

I’m going to trust the data. What is your level of expertise?

[@SteveMagness]

I'm explaining what the data, science, and practice says. I wrote a book on it, if you'd like to go more in depth. My expertise? I'm an exercise physiologist with both my undergrad and graduate degrees in the field, and wrote the book The Science of Running. I've also coached for nearly two decades, including over two dozen Olympic Trials qualifiers and people who have made the Olympics, world championships, etc. I've had runners finish top 10 at Boston, NYC, Chicago, and the world champs marathons. And lastly, I was a solid runner myself. I could go on. But I can pretty dang confidently say that I've got more expertise than any of the podcasters out there telling you the opposite.

[@brendandunn6331]

I've been running for 16 years and have devoured tons of running info. Can't recommend Steve enough. One of the great thinkers in our sport. Have learned so much from his articles, podcasts, videos and his book Science of Running. I've referred to my copy so often it's gotten pretty worn and dog eared (well loved). Please make the second edition a hard cover, Steve ;) thanks for everything, man. You're a legend.

[@adrenalinejunkie4788]

@@brendandunn6331+1