I made this even more fun! - HermitCraft Vault Hunters

Iskall runs two Brazier Vaults to collect as much experience as possible for dolls of fellow hermits and gain reputation points in the process.
Check out the whole unedited VOD from this segment here: • BRAZIER AWAY on patch ...
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[@natncat]

i was someone who really hated scavs and had similar feelings to the ones you're describing; i felt cheated when i got scavs that were too difficult, and they made me feel panicky while playing. then the hermitcraft series started, and suddenly i was watching a lot more gameplay while not playing that much myself because december is a busy month for IRL stuff. i went back to my vaulthunters world this month, and suddenly im doing a lot better. it's difficult to describe what happened, but all i can guess is that i learned a lot by watching gameplay. one concrete thing i learned from watching was how to build better chest-breaking tools. another thing i learned was how to assess the quality of vault gear better as well. in combination, im stronger and faster in the vaults and that has made a huge improvement and probably is what made completing scavs easier. basically i was an omega-noob and had accumulated multiple stacks of noobiness that became super apparent when i unlocked the scav objective. with that context, what i really wanted to say is that i really don't like hearing that scavs would leave the rotation and become seal-only. i just got good at them lol. regardless of whatever you do decide to do, i think new players would benefit from a better tutorial for tools and gear. even just a link to a video tutorial would be great. that way when they unlock scavs, their skill issue won't be so apparent and they'll be less likely to form a negative association with scavs.

[@vodskall85]

I love to read a good story about someone developing and feeling the development, thanks for sharing!

[@MegaSamson13]

I really like the randomness of scavs and the challenge they bring, suddenly I have to focus and get sh*t done in the vault not just chill loot I really like that its in the rotation. Unfortunately you always also have to consider: Most people enjoy things silently, while some people hate things very loudly

[@The-World-of-End]

I think removing scav objectives from the random pool isn't a good idea. There's already so few objectives, it would just make running random vaults get stale fast. The only thing I hate about failing an objective is missing out on the experience from doing it, at least early to mid game. If you could move the experience you get from completing an objective to all the other tasks in the vault, and the only reward for completing an objective is the crate which guarantees gear, gems, other goodies, and a small chance to get an artifact, that would be great. I think the only change scav vaults need is a small increase in drop rate of the scav items across the board. They just seem kinda low from my experience.

[@sadlala64]

Maybe it should be a opt in feature, but I think I would appreciate it.

[@Karlyr_]

I don't think splitting the experience from vault completion is a good idea. Let me explain. If you failed a vault objective, that would mean that you either didn't focus enough on the objective or had problem navigating the vault right ? So you needed better gear for that vault level. Meaning you need more loot from that level. Meaning you shouldn't get to a higher level quicker or else you'll get stuck in a loop of having more and more problems clearing vaults. I know that logic doesn't hold true for vaults where you just didn't get lucky, like scavs, but at the same time... you probably would have had a better chance to finish the objective if you were quicker on vault navigation (killing mobs / being able to ignore them). Just my 2¢

[@The-World-of-End]

@@Karlyr_ That's a problem they already solved with the Plunderer's Pearl.

[@Karlyr_]

@@The-World-of-End adding loot is not solving the issue of getting higher level too quick. It's a crutch to get people that are too high level for themselves out of that situation. Honestly, plunderer's pearl, in my opinion, *shouldn't have to* exist.

[@samsam21amb]

I like scavs, but also never complete the majority of scavs I find it very rewarding and motivating when I finish one. For those people that don’t like scavs make a command or something like /the_vault randomobjective [add/remove/list] [objective] so they have the option to remove scavs, but idk.

[@Arcella1981]

OH! i also like this idea too! make a command so that way if people who love scavs ( like me ) can opt in to having them still be a part of the random rotation, because i HATE HATE HATE the idea of having them never be random and them being a seal only thing, IMO only the special seals should be out of the rotation like Cake vaults, chaos vaults although i did have the idea of having an omega low chance of a random crystal being able to roll on chaos xD

[@bartekzaw2]

Not sure if my addition to the idea would have any benefit or even sense but anyway. There could be quest for each type of the vault and after completing it you get an item "Book of [type of vault]". Then after the first one you craft some kind of library block where you put books with the types you want in the rotation. For me adjusting things without commands sounds more fun/interactive and fits the world better. Of course it doesn't have to be books and library block, just some physical way to decide on the types of vaults you want to run.

[@Arcella1981]

@@bartekzaw2 I love this idea, and yeah it doesn’t have to be books it could be crystals or scrolls or even vault seals

[@brampelberg9335]

I think changing nether damage, illager damage, undead damage and arthropod damage to assasin damage, tank damage, hoard damage and such is a great idea. Right now I don't even know if mushroom hoard mobs count as undead or something else. It makes a lot of sense to change it. Nether damage right now feels kinda weird and I don't see the advantage of taking it instead of say another level in undead damage cause you rarely have a nether theme vault.

[@erinkarp]

Yeah those would be way more generalized which would be good

[@GanjaCoyote]

Never would have thought of it myself but makes so much sense that way. As you say are the plant-hordes undead? Mushrooms? Gummy-bears? Something more generic makes way more sense except for the balance of chaining/AOE vs. single point damage and how that would be effected. Right now though you kind of get a 2 for 1 with Undead Dmg on both Zombie Hordes and Vault Dwellers though, and both Assassins and Tanks can be harder to kill, so specializing in one of them to offset that makes sense too. A really cool but difficult overhaul would be to have different theme's mobs be strong / weak to different damage types instead. It would involve so much work unfortunately but would add so much depth instead of just % bonuses you could have: Ice / Fire / Electricity / Sharp / Blunt / Piercing - Maybe a home for Axes as Blunt / Stun / Cleaving weapons and make Javelins always available and still/more customizable (or some other class of weapon such as a Spear for Piercing). Perhaps even with Javelins as Vault Gear or just aforementioned Spears/Pikes.

[@ImAdonai]

Regarding the scavenger, I do agree it's a fun objective, but RNG tends to be a bit brutal with it. There were multiple scavs that triggered a same idea in my brain - "Damn, wouldn't it be nice if it had a pity mechanic". And I do think it's a reasonable way to go about it, either make a scav item a forced drop every x chests looted, where x is significantly higher than expected number of chests needed to be looted to find a given item, or add an alternative way to "win" a scav by looting enough chests of kinds of your scav items, similarly higher than average number of chests needed to be looted to find all items. The way RNG currently work for scavs make it possible that you won't get a win even if you did everything right and played perfectly, and that aspect makes it uninteractive and basicially gambling with your time and resources. Knowing number of chests would also make for a nice indicator of scav difficulty for newer players, and wouldn't necessarily change any strats, just allow skill to speak for itself instead of pure luck.

[@trykan3190]

What if you made scav items exchangeable at exchange points Ie. 5 common -> 1 rare and 2 rare -> 1 common This way this will allow for you to not be punished cause you will usually get a drop from looting, but it might not be the right rarity. This way with enough looting of those chest types you should be guaranteed

[@ImAdonai]

@@trykan3190 Well, it shouldn't be too complicated either. Currently taking note of what you're picking up just to know more or less what's your progress is already somewhat taxing, having to have conversion rates in mind when doing that seems rough. I also feel converting scav items might impact the balance of the scav vaults, while having some safe pity option of expected chests to finish * 1.25 cracked would have no bearing on the scav vaults if actual drop rates converge with expected drop rates. That would change *just* the aspect of scav vaults that seems unfair without introducing too many balancing issues.

[@stefansauvageonwhat-a-twis1369]

Oh my goodness Etho is gonna keep having vault fun yay

[@impy695]

I was really hoping he'd do a KZbin series rather than the smp. I just don't have nearly enough time to follow a streaming based series, so it's been nice watching some KZbin focused vault hunters. I was most hopeful that he'd do a series, but maybe someone else will

[@stefansauvageonwhat-a-twis1369]

Iskall saw this comment (but didnt read) on stream yay

[@impy695]

@@stefansauvageonwhat-a-twis1369 what did he say?

[@stefansauvageonwhat-a-twis1369]

well, he didnt read it, but he was going through the comments and since this is near the too it was on screen while he was reading another lol@@impy695

[@dox5634]

Maybe an alternate path would be to unlock different vault types in the rotation with 'Tomes' that you could sacrifice to the vault alter. You could have the tomes be unlocked through the questline and the quest should suggest using a seal to test the vault type. Or you could use 'a charm of illiteracy' to remove certain vault types from the pool.

[@JohnAw3som3]

The only way to appease everyone is...wait a minute that doesn't exist. This is your project and your baby. I understand wanting to please a large portion of the community but in the end, if you are sacrificing the aspects of the game that you created and love, is it worth it? Are you making the game better or are you giving people that whine too much what they want?

[@cliffyang7687]

I disagree. There is a way to appease everyone, which is to equally annoy every single person :D

[@katiemiller8313]

I love that Iskall often sticks with his gut on game design issues. Ex: Am I sad to see relics not adding extra time in the future? Yes. Is a lot of the community vocal about their disappointment? Yes. Do I trust Iskall to be updating relics in a way that works best for the overall enjoyment of the game? Yes! While my gut reaction is frustration, Iskall has only proven again and again that he cares deeply for the game and would not make a change simply for the sake of change.

[@aligalad9907]

Totally agree - as I said I find them hard but I’m a NOOB!! & They are supposed to be hard - if it’s always easy you get bored - I know Xb & Hypno used to want Elixer vaults over scabs - but they got good and soon groaned upon entering an Elixer. 😊

[@katiemiller8313]

​@cliffyang7687 That appeases no one. Everyone being upset is much different from no one being upset, even if everyone feels the same. Equal and fair aren't synonyms.

[@carlbenjaminjr7087]

Ah, the mindcrack mentality. "If you don't like it, leave!" "....where did everybody go?"

[@karhall1635]

I appreciate hearing that you took the comments about scavenger vaults into consideration and are trying to implement something that can address them. Doing that for something you greatly enjoy personally can't be easy, but for myself and many other players that had problems with the way scav objectives work it means a lot to be heard. As I've commented before, the thing I would really want to see in scavs is the perceived difficulty to be separate from the randomness factor. Having to get 2 Omega items doesn't mean the vault is inherently any harder than another, it means your objective requires more luck. If you could perform more dangerous activities within the vault to increase your odds of getting an Omega item, that would be real difficulty to the objective. I would go take on a Challenging Living dungeon if it gave me a Scav Item Rarity bonus, my skill as a player would then directly help me to get a Creeper Eye to complete my scav, rather than the indirect path of just looting more chests overall. And if I still didn't get it at that point, and my time is out, then I fail. And it's fine to fail in that way, what I struggle with is failing when I don't have control of the odds. I hope that you continue to listen to feedback on this objective, I look forward to these videos and to information about new changes. Vault Hunters has been so much fun to play, I'm glad this challenge series got me to finally start.

[@DaveTpletsch]

I like this idea, especially because it feels consistent with a lot of the recent changes that've taken place, like the Brassiere's, the Ven-doors, the Plunderer's Pearls, the announced changes to seals etc. which have all been about putting more power back in the player's hands to modify the base games RNG. I hate lazily implemented RNG in games, and one of my favorite things about VH has always been that Iskall seems to understand that RNG can be great when implemented well. I really don't want to see Scav objectives removed from the random table of unmodified crystals because I think the game actively benefits from having Scavs in the rotation, the increased diversity in objectives makes the game better, easier to play for longer, more challenging, and with more replayability. With so few Objectives removing scavs actively makes things worse over all, even if it also makes things easier for a large number of people under one specific circumstance. Thank you for trying to help fix the problem with scavs instead of just complaining that it's too hard.

[@GanjaCoyote]

I too have a problem with not being able to do enough to swing the odds in my favor. We already rely too heavily on the Hunter Skill in this regard. Casual players should just be able to opt out or lower the scavenger difficulty. I think I would personally like them a lot more if I could play with friends. In single player I give it my best shot but mostly fail. I still really enjoy the game but between this and high-level god alter requirements I feel like it is not accommodating enough play-styles at the moment. You are either a fast moving, chest detecting, killing/evasion machine; OR you struggle to do things fast enough to complete the objectives. Even still I think that Scavenger Hunt is maybe the necessary opposite to Elixir Rush and that is a good thing. Heck, now Monoliths are perhaps the most guaranteed completion, followed by Elixir (bad rolls sometimes), and then Scavenger. Having that difficulty curve isn't so bad either. As some people have said it makes you sit up and try to up your game for those runs, and you have the others to relax and loot in between. I feel like as long as nothing is completely gated behind completion crates, and you can just run quantity over quality, until you become a rich boy instead of a lucky one, then all is good and we can choose our path depending on how try-hard we are capable of being.

[@virtcreates]

Id love to see a “Iskall mode” with the balancing you would most like to see, once the game is in more of its final state perhaps. As a scav lover and someone who has been trying to keep up with you and etho in the vaults, yes please HE would like to join! HE!!!! 🎉🎉🎉

[@lydiaschuller8059]

I think it's a good thing for peope to fail scavs and have to deal with that. Having the game actually be a bit hard and knowing that you're not guaranteed to win every time makes it more valuable when you do complete a vault. If people don't like that then there should be an option to opt out of scavs. But I like being surprised with scavs and having to try a bit harder that vault run to succeed.

[@Nameless_Sky]

Would it be a good option to make scav objective possible only for hard vault difficulty? Like... People who don't like hard game can choose to not play hard game....

[@GanjaCoyote]

I think they should stay in the rotation but have option to make them 'IN or OUT' depending on your preference AND/OR 'Reduced Probability of Epic/Omega Items' with perhaps Normal/25% Less/50% Less/75% Less/100% Less all being options so that you can dial it in for your skill level... Game Balance has to be the toughest thing to get right. Everyone wants to be challenged but not feel like they are being punished by it either. I went from surviving but not completing about 80-90% of the time pre update 9, to practically the opposite of that, and completing at least 90% of the time (scav hunt is probably much worse). I have a love/hate relationship with the Scavenger Hunt. The concept is great. I just have the worst luck most of the time. Case in point I have only managed 1 Reputation Point total so far at level 91 and this mans is getting two of them in one Vault. 🙄

[@nielskeller1734]

Idea: Seal of the historian. Is crafted by surrounding a blank seal in 8 Bookshelves. Creates a vault with a random achievement, that contains rooms from older versions like the end room, the omega-tree, the old village rooms and such. Loot would be the same, it would be more like an easter egg for long time players

[@kroznick1011]

One good change you made for not completing vaults not feel as bad was changed "Bailed" to "survived"

[@nathangifford897]

I think I understand the perspective on vaults as a resource. Its the same view that sees death as failure in D&D rather than an opportunity for drama or new experiences. Yes, there may be frustration or anger around the initial circumstance, but death isnt the end. Just as every vault is a new opportunity. Not acing that one doesnt mean the end of your adventure.

[@238Hero238]

I think maybe there should be some assist mechanic for Scavs, where you get just a liiitle bit of loot radar for every item you complete, so by the end if you're just oh-so-close and need like a cracked pearl, you can see coin piles through walls from like twelve blocks away. That way you still have to put in about the same effort for most of the vault, but you won't feel "cheated" because you found everything but never any of the last thing you needed. This also allows people to still play it exactly the way it is right now, by not turning in any items until the end.

[@Dysonsfear771]

You could interpret the scavenger hunt objective similar to the reason why you're changing catalysts. You're changing catalysts because you're progressing something but by random chance it can fail. You don't have that in control. The same thing happens with failed scavenger hunts. You have a goal, try as hard to achieve it only to have it fail because of random chance. Something you have no control over

[@loumardesplayer2989]

To you it's obvious that the vault you designed full of ressources and named as such is meant to be plundered while trying to survive it But when new players discover this new dimension for the first time, they assume the prominent goal constantly displayed top center of their screen is their purpose there, hence why they feel bad dor not being able to follow that instruction In the end, the problem is the usual communication of the game's principles and expectations, you got this :)

[@ArkenStorm7]

"Fix one bug, 2 more shall take its place; Hail Hydra!" Gotta love development lol I'm always pumped when I get a scav in a random vault, and I don't usually complete them. It gives extra challenge and changes my focus a lot of times, gives me a little extra drive. Could you just have a command or config that allows you to mess with the random vault rotation? That way the base game could be as you want, but if people really hate it they can change it.

[@m.k.outlaw3198]

i like the amount of updates you give us Iskall. rly feels like beeing a part of it all in a way :) #giveStressFlowers

[@mickus85]

An alternative solution for scav would be to have it similar to cake vaults. You get a crate for submitting anything however if you don’t finish it you must leave by the vault door and not the scav altar. In order to get a full crate you need to eat 100% or you get a % of loot based on what you submit.

[@jophmac]

I really like that idea, and it seems align with the change of monoliths to braziers. Players can choose to tap out or greed out.

[@BelacDarkstorm]

As someone who loves scavs, I really don't want to see them removed from the random rotation. I think a better option would be an gamerule for those who don't like it. Another thing is that I think it would make sense for scavs to move to a partial completion based on total completion of items (so partially completing an item doesn't count). Maybe something like if you complete all but one it's equivalent to an elixir vault crate. Of course if you only partially complete you'll have to exit to get your crate.

[@TakoArishi]

I think it's worthwhile to have a variety of vault types in the random rotation. It keeps people on their toes, but also gives them a baseline of what to expect. I enjoy Scavs as a special thing; a spicy part of a meal, for example. I find that when it doesn't appear as often as the "basic" type of objective, it makes the vault unique, and makes me consider it a special challenge... as long as it doesn't happen too many times in a row. The natural issue is that RNG hits differently for different people, so you'll naturally get the person that only gets Scavs, and they end up hating things, but that's what Seals are for, right? Maybe Seals are something that should be incentivized and put in your face more for those people that have those kinds of issues... though idk how, since the modpack's quests make that pretty explicit in their way.

[@patrickmileski7543]

For what you said about not knowing how to implement partial completion, I would say you already have with cake vaults. As in you don't get normal loot until 40 cakes, but you can stop sooner and have a scaling lower amount. The one thing I would say about this is cake vaults always feel "complete" because there is no progress bar or X/Y. It is just a number.

[@Waffles17643]

ETHO CONFIRMED EVERYONE FREAK OUT AND GRAB YOUR DAMN SNACKS

[@natashadolgih926]

I’m not a stream watcher, but I really enjoy this vault runs of this series!! Really hope that new season of vault hunters would also be uploaded to KZbin in some form!

[@thexanderthemander]

Idea for another trapped chest. At high levels there is a chance a trapped chest turns into a void liquid source when triggeres. (Instead of poison or spawning mobs)

[@mollymiccee]

I’d love to continue to watch Etho/Iskall/Stress/False vaults into the VHSMP (or any collab vaults, tbh) cut down on vodskall. I don’t watch many streams live anymore, but I do watch vods on youtube and the cut down ones are fantastic!

[@Rahl692]

I agree with you iskall; The fact you can fail an objective and still leave with all the loot you gained is more than enough to feel like I didn't hard fail the vault.

[@Danouement42]

I really like this format for the vod channel. I can't often watch the livestreams, probably wouldn't more than a small portion of an hours-long vod, but these vod highlight segments are great for me

[@thechartech]

The potion bug reminds me of when blizzard changed bag sizes in WoW and it broke the game authentication completely lol. Seemingly completely unrelated things haha

[@Connor_Conntroller]

Thinking about the Herold i kinda miss the old fault Hunter bosses, they were great fun

[@Dadel2400]

I'm not worried about not completing vaults but the nice thing about the scav change is I won't have to take in a scav bag to every vault just in case.

[@eddie_the_underlord_cow3459]

There could be a gamerule to turn on and off scavs being in the random objective pool. at least later in the game (I like having customizability of the game no matter the pack I'm running and I will definitely turn scavs on. It should probably start off as default to not upset those who don't like the random scavs if it does get implemented)

[@Unbound_Shadow]

With the changes to brasier vaults, it looks like you don't actually get to do much pillaging because you spend so much time looting and looking for modifiers that don't ruin your vault. And basically any brasier that shortens the time in the vault looks like a dead brazier that has to be skipped, especially if it comes up during the last 5 minutes or so because it'll just end your run early, leading to your death. Especially because that last five minutes, when it's especially deadly to give up time, is exactly when people will actually be looking for their brasiers and trying to complete. The experience modifier is a really interesting one though, does it change the total exp for the run or just the exp for objectives you accomplished past its acquisition? Because if it's the first one that seems really strong.

[@Connor_Conntroller]

That Damage attribute change sounds great, i think that may be used a bit more than nether or illager damage

[@MrMcturtle01]

I think the crystal crafting ststem should be something of a map layout, where you can choose where to put specific rooms. However, to avoid crystals where you just have really good rooms right next to the start, you have some sort of system where different rooms have different proximity values.

[@daviscalledfred]

tbh I consistently fail the scavs when I get them, but I do still like the random scavs occasionally to mix it up. loss is just a learning curve

[@zacaryhellings9507]

I like vodskall cause i get to enjoy more iskall vault runs while not having to sit through a stream which i often dont enjoy watching streams in general even from my favourite creators

[@LambiPlays]

I am itching to get my hands on update 13 ... the way you've shared so much info about it and keep giving dev insights on these vods makes my heart happy ... but like, my hands be itchy dude

[@Starhunter1975]

I like this new channel of yours and it’s not a surprise that Vault Hunters is Etho’s new obsess.

[@isobarkley]

absolutely absolutely absolutely the vod edits you've been posting here. i don't have the patience nor time to be able to watch the multi hour streams, even as vods, and seeing you vault more (even unedited!!) is lovely. going to try to start a trend here, piggybacking from twitch: #NeverEverLeaving

[@marniejane11]

16:30 I wondered if Etho was going to be invited to join VH!! Seems like a match made in heaven! I love how Iskall just referred to him as "He" at first. 😂

[@StephanieOrta]

I love scavs the way they are. I agree with a lot of the comments I see here that they should stay how they are. Speaking as someone who completes about 1/10 scavs, from what I’ve experienced it feels a lot worse to plan for a scav and not completing it then just getting one randomly and not completing it.

[@scaptal]

kinda sad that scav is getting removed from the random rotation... cause, I ofcourse don't fully know, but it feels like a case of the loud minority. Wouldn't it be a better solution to have a command to disable scavs for the people who don't like them? cause it feels like a fun option, maybe just make sure that the chances are lowish (10% or smth) but taking it away (out of the standard rotation) feels kindof like taking a fun and interesting mechanic away from everyone because a few people yelled loudly enough about it. Couldn't you just make it an opt out (with a command, or with a capstone, or whatever) for those who truly dislike it?

[@ellemdraws]

or an inventory item that blocks certain objectives from appearing.

[@Bendzsike]

Exactly, I love to randomly realize that the random vault I just started is a scav. It definitely should be an opt out command, rather than a default setting.

[@fada840]

True, I dont have time for Stream, but I realy realy enjoy the format of vodskall85! Thank u mister content creators!

[@FunFun123]

about the trap build, what if adding a perk in experties to make traps also benefits you while the vault gods reputation points are high enough? like when you have at least 10 Velara reputation, makes that the poison traps also do damage to mobs, and when the reputation goes higher, make their radius or damage scales with it, or even just to hurt mobs? the Dweller traps on the other hand, could be minions of gods sent by them kind of things, like if you got 10 Velara reputation points or higher, then there would be a chance instead of summoning three regular dwellers to hunt you, summoning a temporary minion to assist you.

[@sfrausing80]

An idea for a random negative modifier. “All liquid is void water”

[@carolinekreiner971]

Honestly, listening to Iskalls thoughts on completion has been the biggest changer for me. It took a huge pressure off me struggling for completion, especially scavs. Ive since practiced a lot, and I enjoy scavs now! I DONT feel pressure to finish because I know its fine to Loot and Scoot (which is what I always think of instead of survived)

[@analogbunny]

For the Scavs... Could you use the base stats of the vault as a seed for the scavs? As an example; let's say that in vault theme X there is a 20% chance that a given POI will be living chests. Why not take those values as a base for when you roll the scav requirements? This means that vaults where coin piles are rare because of the theme, coin-based scav items are less likely to show up. If you tweak the balance of the tiers, and make common more common and omega more rare (even if only by a bit), then scavs will naturally be "easier". Rare POIs with rare scav items *for that vault* will be less likely to show up. For solo vault runners, being far less likely to worry about ores in a vault that naturally spawns fewer ore POIs will just ease the difficulty, even only a little.

[@user-tv6gm2wf6z]

As someone who really dislikes scav vaults, and frequently fails at completing them, I still think you should keep them as part of the random rotation. You’ve said from the start players shouldn’t expect to always complete everything in a vault and part of the game is choosing what to focus on. When I do complete one it’s all the more satisfying.

[@randomgreatness5245]

@Iskall85 says 32:26 and 34:53 but remember all start of episode and many times in other videos "it's not important if you complete or not"

[@SilverTao]

It's important if you're maxing exp/loot gain, but it's not necessary. Iskall is trying to gain as much vault experience as possible, but any other player can simply progress slower if they feel like it. Min-maxing is an option, not a necessary feature.

[@Rosa-xg8tb]

I like how many things are named after League of Legends in this modpack lmao (ability power, grevious wounds)

[@Xigzagamer]

Looking at the comments, I'm going to consolidate a few of the ideas I read into one MEGA idea for how to (hopefully) make scav vaults feel more fun and a fair for players. I included the names of the people who wrote the comments that inspired me at the end off my comment. I simply refined and explained how I think these ideas could work. First, scav rolls depend on how many of which chests are available in the vault, the more chests of that type the more items you'll likely need from it. This can make scavs feel more unique to the vault and scale the difficulty accordingly. This can make scavs easier or harder, scavs that might have been "free" in the past will be harder, impossible scavs will be made doable. Second, you should be guaranteed to get a scav item you need after looting a certain amount of chests/coins or killing a certain number of mobs. You can get the item earlier, but you may need to loot like 40 chests to guarantee that you'll get it. This isn't meant to make the scav easy, it is to make it doable even with the worst luck for getting a specific drop. Third, rarer scav items could be found more commonly in dungeons, especially higher difficulty dungeons, adding a risk reward element where the vault objective can be "easier" to complete by taking on a harder challenge. This may also help motivate players to take on tougher dungeons they might pass by otherwise. I'm not sure how feasible these ideas are to implement, but I think if done right you can keep the challenge, increase the strategy of scavs, and make them more accessible. The idea behind consolidating these ideas in particular is to increase the strategy of scavs and try to make the objectives feel more fair. You could try your luck just going about the scav like you would before. You could also try to loot as many chests of a certain type as possible to get a rare item. You could even risk taking on a dungeon if you want to ensure you have a good chance of getting a certain scav item. The whole idea is to give players more options so they feel like they are in control. The commenters that came up with the ideas that inspired me. @analogbunny @ImAdonai @karhall1635

[@fazljr9349]

Just ask spiffing brit, he get's all of the, "perfectly balanced" features of this game out of their hiding spot.

[@tylermccormack1932]

Scavs will always be my favorite because of the RNG and challenge they bring, completing a scav is always satisfying and makes you feel like a true gamer :) Although I personally would like to see them remain in the random rotation, that solution does seem like the best compromise. Can’t wait to try out the Brasiers and definitely looking forward to the new crystal system. You and your team are amazing

[@Ithenna]

I think a large part of why people feel like not completing the objective is a failure is because of 2 things. Firstly, back in the early updates of the game, not completing a vault was a massive setback because it was so difficult to acquire gear, and if you failed to acquire gear, then you basically were doomed to struggle in a vicious cycle of no gear, almost no loot because your gear sucks, and therefore no completion because you can't loot to complete anything beyond a monolith objective - which also had the worst loot in the crate, and barely anything to help get you by. (That has changed drastically in the more recent updates, to the point that I can run a vault and completion has no effect on my ability to maintain a decent build and tools.) The second reason is that crates and treasure chests are the only method of obtaining artifacts (besides the paradox which is seriously late game and didn't even exist until quite recently), and since objectives are far more common to come across than the right treasure room door, it makes people feel like they are losing a ridiculous amount of chances to get an artifact, and as such, makes them feel like they will never complete the game/unlock the final boss. So while the vault is just a massive resource, gating the majority of artifact system behind completing its objectives will generally feel bad for people who can't complete at least half of them. (And on that note, I do like the idea of having a separate difficulty for objectives - even if it were only for scavs since that is what people struggle with the most, myself included. I can complete (with some relics, by the way) about 80% of elixir, 50% of guardians, and 90% of monoliths, so those don't feel bad to me (until relics get removed), but my completion rate for scavs is like... 2%... even with 6 relics.)

[@LaughCappp]

At the beginning, I got so frustrated with scavenger vaults because I never completed them, but now they are my favorite too! I still only complete around 30% of them because I have a skill issue, but I do love them still

[@theonetruespry783]

Another Comment, I am so glad you brought enigma chest scrolls over!!! They are my absolute favorite chests.

[@galleryghost]

I don't know if you will see this, But you could make the random vault be a config option, so there would be an option to pick what you want the random vaults be. So if the player doesn't want scavs on randoms they can remove it from the config. Or a command to make it easier

[@theonetruespry783]

Iskall, I will always believe that you know what is best for the success of your game. I really do think that it would be amazing to keep scav included in the rotation of vaults even though Im bad at them. One, yes I know when you loose it hurts your pride in the game however when you when it makes you feel so much more accomplished. I believe that maybe having a way to mark what vaults you would like in rotation using skill points or something would be cool but I do not wish for the rotation of Scav vaults to go away especially if you are using soul flames.

[@lawlietgaming9621]

Also iskall add a curse that reverse the trap disarm. Also add some brazier objective which are buff and debuff on itself. Like more mobs with no other buff or debuff. People can decide themselves if thats buff or debuff for them

[@ColeCorvin]

Surviving the Vault is always my goal.

[@Jakedaniels3914]

I feel like finding unique ores to make pogs is the hardest thing very casual players like myself.

[@avi9720]

Everyone being wholesome in the comment but the only thing I keep thinking about is how he knows exactly which update had which change, even this far in the development.

[@sathya4386]

Here is a clean way to scale scav difficulty iskall (if you ever wanted to do that) , in easier difficulty, every chest has more odds of having scav items .. like 75% or even 100% rather than the 50% atm (iirc) .. so essentially players get 1.5x or 2x of scav items than they usually get making it easier for them to complete the same scav goal

[@drdeeglaze]

This is the only vod channel I like to watch. You’re doing a great job.

[@erinkarp]

You should definitely do the tank/hoarde/etc damage change, that'd make them a lot more useful in all vaults

[@Bob_Smith19]

Game rule to scale scavs w/ difficulty settings, or just manual scaling, would be a better option than removing it from random rotation. I dislike scavs a lot but still don’t want to see them removed from randomly popping up. Changing their weighting is another option. Just have them show up less. I will say the more things are configurable the better. Let the players choose how they want Scavs to work.

[@greasho]

I feel like part of the problem people have with not completing vaults, is that the mod-pack is called Vault Hunters, which implies that hunting vaults is one of, if not the most important parts of the pack. So when people can't finish it's like they're failing at a base level in playing (imagine looking for diamonds or even iron in extreme cases in vanilla but you keep dying before you can find them) it's frustrating to be unable to utilize core game mechanics. There will obviously be the problem of bounties, maybe someone finds a great bounty reward but it's tied to a scav vault, so they don't go for it, there are plenty of ways to design around this (disclaimer I have no idea what development in Minecraft is like), adding difficulty levels on a vault by vault basis, so when someone makes their scav seal they can craft it as an easy mode vault, so they won't have to find any rare items, mobs will be easier, but there will be less loot in chests, and higher rarity items will be less likely to drop. You can also go in the opposite direction, people don't need to be incentivized to do different content, maybe you can make it so people can keep the rewards for a bounty, but re-roll the task so they can get something they're more comfortable with, or even add a skill that allows people to completely evade different vault types entirely when running a standard crystal, if you're not entirely on board with making scav vaults seal style vaults rather than a standard style. I'm sure you and your team have lots of good ideas and have a good feel for what people want in your community, just thought I'd throw in my two cents.

[@tricmagic]

With catalysts changing, might make those modifiers affect crystal slots. If you want an easy Scav, just make a seal for it that affects things. If you want the plunder, have it take up a lot of crystal slots. Same with warden I suppose. RNG on crystal modifiers is certainly a mess when you have plan in mind but have to pray to RNGesus. So slot system fits in with the minigame aspect of jewel and gear building.

[@diphinius9713]

I think the idea of having scavs be only seals is good, but I think that when you put an ember on a seal there is a chance of getting a scav, because if the embers are suposed to be a challange scavs should be there Edit: also i think that if scav stays in the random rotarion there should be a partial completion, like if the vault has 2 omegas, a rare and a common and you onlu get 1 of the omegas and the rest you should get xp based on that, but I also think there should be a partial completion crate, but unlike the xp there should be only the full completion and a 50% completion crate, so if the player get 50%+ completion they get this half crate as an reward

[@bwjclego]

Regarding how to talk on stream when it is also made into a video: At least with vodskall (and in general as long as it is communicated that it taken from a stream, either explicitly or because it is on a vod channel), as a video viewer I expect you to be talking to stream chat, etc. I get that there is more to it than just that, but I sort of expect to be a "second class citizen", if that makes sense, because I'm not in chat live. Loving the little bit of editing in all these vods! Definitely makes these more digestible.

[@BackyardFilms2]

Also a rare brazier effect could increase dungeon alter chance. That way brazier would not be horrible for treasure hunters

[@astrogamer158]

Just add objective difficulty and objective types as 2 different options. Objective types could be normal, no natural Scav, chaos(every objective, including cake and maybe paradox(removes normal paradox explore seal so its random only to get, but no once a day limit, max 1 crate tho. Disabled if no paradox is created), is available to be rolled on a random one.), Pure Chaos(Same as chaos, but no seals are allowed, except architect and maybe paradox creation. Crate loot is increased, and acention has an extra reward maybe since paradox is hard to complete.) Then, for Objective Difficulty, there's easy, normal, hard, challenging, and impossible. Same as dungeons.

[@Admiral_Lynx89]

The Guardian fights that replaced the old vault boss mechanic need some love in terms of variability. They _are_ viable as straightforward vault progression, but feel like a placeholder mob. They've got two major variants in the melee, and the ranged meanies, but...they're currently sized-up magmatic pig brutes. Modelling new mobs is absolutely hefty work, and I appreciate that they take a long time to design, develop, and (because of debugging) program. Still, the 'fight the guardians' objective could be more fun even if it remains mostly "as is" Though to be fair, what I'm saying is mostly colored by missing the old boss fights. 😅 I can appreciate how S1's and S2's boss seeking method could be a little tedious, but it also made the actual run more thrilling rushing around to unlock a chance at the win condition of the objective. Like Scav, it wasn't necessarily a guaranteed fight, but it sure was neat watching everyone running for the fastest boss slay record. It was a show (and test) of how good your current loadout is. Downright fantastic! And it makes the objective style it got replaced with all the more, well not 'boring', but it almost feels _more_ tedious in the current form. A sort of "yeah, yeah... [poison go biffin' _BRRR!_ ] the chore is done. I got the crate, and it is... mid." Granted, The Herald is the first really complex boss your team has developed to be as interesting as it is, but it _does_ show you've all got it in you. 'Course, if you're worried about the battle AI in just any old vault room, you could just have a special room that spawns in a boss fight objective vault with a guaranteed arena for the fight itself. Whether the player can fight immediately, or after completing a requirement, a boss fight objective type with a much tougher than average mob would be cool. Maybe even some Vault God themed bosses for Divine Paradox if you build up to a boss fight objective in DP. They could be mini previews of The Herald, though obviously nowhere near as powerful, given they should probably only represent one per vault instance.

[@erikswanson4338]

I am pretty new at vault hunters, and my first few scavs were frustrating because I didn't complete the objective, but as I've run more I've gotten a lot better at them, and now am completing more than half, which I think is a sweet spot, and makes it feel like an exciting challenge. To your point in the video, I think maybe it's worth doing more to emphasize in game that survival is still a "successful" accomplishment. I would agree with other commenters as well that you should rely on your intuition for what makes the game fun. It's going to be a better game if you make decisions that you find fun.

[@TheLightLOD]

I would almost expect something like 4 or 5 difficulty tiers: - Easy mode (weaker enemies, easier tasks for scavs etc) - Story mode (weaker enemies) - Normal mode - Omega (stronger enemies, harder tasks) - Hardcore/Ironman mode (only 1 life, death ends the game)

[@apersonwhomayormaynotexist9868]

Story mode is usually easier than easy mode

[@DylanSampson]

I have a legendary scav bounty and I've failed like 10 of them in a row. Part of me definitely wants them to not be as hard but I get that my play style is more "I wanna have fun with little stress" where a lot of people like the stress as it does add excitement when you do complete it.

[@giladmoshenson8728]

I’m not sure if you’ve already added it but cooldown reduction could be an interesting brazier modifier as well as maybe cooldown increase

[@arandomdiamond2]

5:50 I actually had just a vault yesterday were I needed 6 bones from ores and I searched the entire vault and there was only one good ore POI and then one ok ore POI in an ore room and no other ores. I even confirmed it in spectator mode afterwards and I am pretty sure there were only a dozen or so ores to be mined in the whole vault which is not enough to complete the objective.

[@aegelotte]

I like how you describe vaults as a way to get resources. Maybe add a quest to enter and survive rather than complete to help explain this? I would rather not see Scavenger vaults leave the rotation, not completing some means it's more satisfying when you do complete, a % complete seems like a better solution.

[@DaveTpletsch]

Having Scavs, having a wider diversity of different vault types, actively makes the game better. It decreases the monotony that can build up in any game where you have to grind a lot for resources by forcing your brain to rethink your strategies for how you're approaching a challenge. If people find Scavs challenging and frustrating that's valid. It's also by design. I'm frustrated that people who refuse to understand the challenging nature of a Roguelike are throwing such a tantrum that Iskall feels he has to make the game worse to accommodate them. I thought that the nature of the game itself would've made it obvious that this isn't a "I'm a super powered god who always wins" type of game. Maybe I'm being unfair to the anti-Scav-ers, but they've been so unfair and so insistent on throwing a tantrum over this, so determined to never hear any argument to keep scavs, that I don't care anymore. There's already a way for them to opt out, they can just walk out of the damn scav vault. Or you know what, maybe they just shouldn't play VH.

[@GanjaCoyote]

I am fine with this interpretation as well and seeing how you have to rely on the Vault for just about everything in Sky-Vaults drives that concept home even more for me. If I am not mistaken there are some items which do not appear in regular loot and only in completion crates (and perhaps Treasure Chests as well). This goes somewhat against the idea that they are simply a bonus resource. You will have far less of these items if you have to rely more on rare Treasure and/or Black-market / Bounties to get them. Maybe there are enough ways to get them though and their rarity could be re-balanced in the event that vaults become harder to complete again.

[@erikthep6308]

I love the idea to change the talent group to extra horde, assassin, tank, or dweller damage instead of extra damage to vanilla mob classes. I think that makes those talents a lot more intuitive to new players, since it can be hard to determine which vanilla class some of the mobs fall into. Like, the mossy horde guys or the mushroom tanks, do they even fall into any of the vanilla classes of undead, illager, nether, or arthropods? I'm at vault level 100 in my single player world and I still don't know.

[@maknu]

I really like the random objective stuff, and failing a scan when you just can't get that 1 drowed honestly sucks but that's just how it is you decide to do hunter or not and you decide to push with fruit or not, scavs are great they are awesome challenges - that said I really like the the change idea - People need to stop crying and learning to deal with failure it's part of life a challenge feels good only because you can fail.

[@squigglysailor6261]

No wayyyy Etho is joining Vault Hunters SMP season 4!!

[@Lev1athan007]

I wonder how useful a bestiary would be. I didn't know that they are tank mobs. A bestiary could help with this and show you what spans in what type of vault as you kill and visit diffrent vaults. You can also have fun little descriptions for mobs as well, as well as explain what champians are, to my knowledge you can't find info about champains in game.

[@plantcraftie4141]

The reason I love this game is mostly because of the RNG! That's why I love scavs. Also I'm sad that the catalysts will be less randomised now. I laugh when my crystal gets unmodifiable fast and I love the bonus of a ton of catalysts on my crystal

[@ШонДейл]

Id love to have some kind of "new game+" mode in Vault Hunters. Like, if you wish to keep playing, but not at level 100, you could reset your level to 0, getting harder Vaults, but also gettting a choice of one of the base stats to get an upgrade, like bass mana, damage, or regen or stuff. Doesn't even need to be too balanced, its just to keep going forever without loosing sence of progression. Altho i dont know what to do with hoarded resources and mods...

[@Arcella1981]

I LOVE scav vaults they are my favorite objective by far, and i have to say that taking them out of the rotation completely i don't think is the answer, because now it means i will have to always use a seal for it and i absolutely HATE that idea, if you HAVE to change scav vault things just maybe change the weight of it, so that it doesn't show up as often, don't remove it completely from the rotation, that is never a good design, i think what would be better is have it tied to vault difficulty, so for example if you are on piece of cake then make it that you will only have 2-3 items then easy would be 3 thn normal would be 3-4 then hard would be normal, or make a new command that anyone can do like "/the_vault Scav_difficuly easy " and have it change it that way

[@TrixieJLulamoon]

I was searching for Biffa and found myself here.

[@thexanderthemander]

Biffa deez nutz, gottem

[@phatwizard]

#nevereverleaving don't catch you on stream but am so glad you have the vodskall to keep your viewers in the loop

[@AlyssonAzevedo]

No scav on plunder is good. I usually run plunder to recover gold to buy my items back after dying. Not having to worry about a hard scav when i am on my spare set is good.

[@oliveroest1070]

I know you tend to read the comments on here iskall-MAN. Just wanna say the scavs being part of the rotation is very much a positive to me and the people I play with. I feel like an opt out features would be better than making everyone need to opt in

[@BEETLEDJUICE]

I remember when play testing for a game in the 2000s they did an update that broke the reloading animation, later got added as a feature of realism, ie Gun Jamming.

[@Willd_Hunt3r]

For the scav situation, What if you add seal tiers? Tier 1 seal is easy and require less item deposits but tier 3 is harder and always need at least one omega item but gives more vault XP. But in general I think scav is fun and it's in a pretty healthy spot.

[@justicefool3942]

The main issue I have had with scavs is that they have always felt like the one vault type where your skill doesn't matter, or matters the least. I mentioned on past videos that I have had multiple scavs where an objective was basically impossible to complete, like when I was around level 35 or so, I had multiple in a row where I had to collect large quantities of epic items, such as one where I had to collect 6 zombie brains and I looted something like 150 living chests and only got 1 brain. Then, on the other side, I have had numerous scavs where I completed all the objectives in 1 room in like 2 minutes. Neither one is fun. The scav ends up either being impossible, or handed to you on a silver platter. There is no skill or technique to them. You are completely at the mercy of RNG. While I have been very critical of scavs in the past and now, I do think it has the possibility of becoming a great Vault objective. I think the easiest thing to do is make it so scavs unlock around level 50 or so, instead of level 20. The unforgiving RNG can be somewhat negated by better vault gear and having more talents unlocked at those higher levels, making them more skill based rather than luck based that you get at low levels. Another possibility is having a special scav chest that only contains the scav items you or your group need. This chest is hidden to trinkets and hunter talent and will be placed in 1 POI in every room. The chest contains random quantities and rarity of items that you need.

[@irishgamermc7253]

Man the one strem I catch I thought wasn't going to be a vodskall vid 😂

[@owen_brady]

I think it could be a fun idea to have the chance for a random secondary effect added to your potion when using the alchemy table. Maybe its an expertise like extra legendary percentage. I'm not sure what would balance it though, maybe the amount of gold and vault diamonds needed to get a potion with the right combination of perks? I'm a fan of immortality, but like to use the mana or frost nova effect as well from time to time.

[@karpyy24]

For the discussion at 5:04 that talks about mob difficulty and objective difficulty, I personally am in that boat. I like playing with easier mobs so I can enjoy it, but also like going for the difficult objectives within vaults. Making vault objectives change with set difficulty in my opinion would be a big mistake, but that's just me

[@Missmori]

*to the tune of 99 bottles of beer* 99 messed up bugs in the code. 99 bugs in the code. take one down, patch it around 173 bugs in the code.