Voting: An abdication of responsibility - Matthew Milioni 11-6-16

[@Noteworthy2024]

Here at 2024 so needed

[@mtngirlbunny9290]

Finally, we are hearing this from somewhere else!!! We have been going crazy in our world...no one ever listens to us about this in the churches we've been in. Thank You!!! Praise God!

[@cicirelliwrites]

So glad I found this channel!! Any fellowships in NJ?

[@followthewayTRUTHlife]

So glad you said it! It's just an extension of the roman empire. Roman icons can be seen everywhere.

[@SpencerLionheart-l9p]

America after all was founded by masons

[@mpenner2124]

So earthly governments were formed by the will of men for the purpose of collective violence against others motivated by greed? That's curious because, although that has happened in history, both the New Testament and the earliest common Christian writings teach that the governance of worldly kingdoms, to which Christians are to submit themselves, was divinely established and appointed for good (Rom. 13). The quote from Irenaeus is right on, and not concerned with how good or bad a particular government or its form, structures, and performance may or may not be. Rom. 13:3-4 is addressing Christians, not just those in the world. So is 1 Peter 2:19-20 and 4:12-19. That divine intent and design for good in earthly governance, however humans may corrupt it, is the very reason why Christians are to honor and submit themselves to such authorities when the authorities' expectations are not at cross-purposes with the values and governance of the Kingdom of God. But if we hold the first-half and last-half arguments presented here simultaneously, that would mean that what God established and appointed was fundamentally self-serving and evil in nature instead. 1 John 1:5; James 1:13; etc. It is not an "evil world" theory that has ever been the basis of Christian non-participation, even though Christians certainly believe that the world is in a fallen state. Rather, it is a different-kingdoms theory. Traditional Christians in antiquity did not serve in their countries' military for the same reason that Chinese soldiers do not serve in the American military. These same Christians who choose not to participate in politics and war today are hopefully making that choice because they regard themselves as strangers, foreigners, even ambassadors of the Prince of Peace, despite being in their own countries of temporal residence on earth.

[@SpencerLionheart-l9p]

We submit to God, the higher power. That's what Romans 13 is talking about, it is NOT an endorsement for Christians to go out voting. A government refuting to execute evildoers is not recognized by God. Which is still NOT to say we attempt to change it by voting for it, but God does give a sign what to obey and what a kingdom is. We do obey secular laws but only if they don't contradict with the Bible (like evolution). Fact is, a Christian who participates in voting remains a slave

[@dougklewin2782]

Don't confuse this group with The Way International. Way different. From their website: The expression "Followers of the Way" was perhaps the first title given to those who followed Jesus after His resurrection (Acts 9:2, 22:4, 24:14). Because Jesus taught that He was "the way, the truth, and the life," and that no one comes to God except through Him (John 14:6), this title aptly captures the exclusive truth claims of Jesus and the totalizing commitment of following Him.

[@arttyree4504]

Hi Doug! I'm pleased to see these teachings made available to the public. Hope all is well with you in Ellensburg. I am in southern CA for a while. Visited the saints in Las Cruces New Mexico a couple weeks ago. Blessings.

[@GebreMenfesKidus]

This is excellent!

[@jpcharlebois9681]

Any chance you still have the refs for the quotes? If not I can search them out.

[@karenbehymer3634]

TRUTH!!!!! THANK YOU!!!!!

[@josephgorscak5229]

AMEN !!!

[@austin6174]

I have friends who are losing friends and family, being ostracized because they believe the things preached in this sermon. Yet, they have never seen this video or had interactions with FOTW. This sermon is like having morpheus offering you the blue pill or the red pill. Time to wake up from the matrix. Ps it's a terrible movie that I don't condone, but there's many great books dealing with the philosophy of it.

[@johnplain1546]

You read books about the matrix movie? Wow. Incredible

[@SpencerLionheart-l9p]

AMEN

[@thedragonslay3r]

I love what you've done here. I really appreciate the view that you've put forth. This is how I have been feeling lately. I would really like to know how you deal with Romans 13 and 1 Peter 2, though. I have friends who stand by those religiously as their reasoning for engaging in politics. I'd like to know your thoughts on the matter.

[@mmilioni]

Caleb this was a year ago. I don't know if you will get this response or if you are still interested, but it is a useful question. Rom 13 in particular is not hard to deal with if we start with context. The author of Rom 13 was writing explicitly about Nero, who would, not inconsequentially be responsible for the decapitation of the author of the epistle. So whatever theory we apply to Rom 13 has to fit as well to Nero as it does to George Bush. There is a book that I always promote in regards to this apparent conflict called "Anatomy of a Hybrid" by Leonard Verduin. Verduin describes the redemptive work of God falling into two mutually exclusive spheres of influence, namely Conserving and Redeeming grace. Conserving is the domain of civil structure. It uses explicitly coercive means (they bear not the sword in vain), and it is as I mentioned mutually exclusive with the concern of the Church, or Redeeming grace. Where one begins the other by definition ends. This is why Gentile authority is not just a bad idea, its not even a prohibition, it is an impossibility (it shall not be so among you). Wherever coercion begins (and voting is a coercive act) the church has stopped. We have no place in the machinations of state and the state has no place in the church. The function of conserving grace, and why they are ordained of God (including Nero, Nebuchadnezzar, Pharaoh, et al) is to reward good and punish evil. In other words their role is to use coercion to force unregenerate men to not act like animals. There is much that can be said in analyzing this premise but for space I will let it stand. Redeeming grace on the other hand is used by the church to call men from the necessity of state through baptism and new birth to a different sphere of authority where coercion is not necessary for the maintenance of his character and humanity. One other minor but not insignificant point is the use of pronouns in Rom 13 They (as opposed to us) bear not the sword in vain. This pronoun use is consistent through the whole text in making it clear that we (the Roman church in specific and the church proper generally) are not the power construct but "they" are. Which immediately reconciles the contradiction between loving our enemies and the state persecuting and prosecuting evil doers. The Protestant alternative is the spiritual schizophrenia of loving and killing ones enemies at the same time as either a power broker of the state or its agent (soldier, police, etc.).

[@daughterofgod3721]

@@mmilioni Out of curiosity, if a Christian is a victim of a serious crime like rape, do you believe they should not press charges?

[@christianmama2441]

@@daughterofgod3721 They can just report to the authorities the crime without pressing charges....in many cases the State will press charges on their behalf without them having to do anything other than report the event.

[@daughterofgod3721]

@@christianmama2441 I was curious what Matthew's specific belief was on the issue, though I appreciate learning yours as well (it's an interesting topic). I know there are crimes for which they specifically ask the person reporting if they want to press charges (I'm not sure how this varies by state or to what crimes it does and does not apply). God bless you!

[@christianmama2441]

@@daughterofgod3721 The District Attorney has an obligation to bring to court (they sue the criminals, literally) criminal cases, family violence cases, etc. If the offense is minor then you can sue to press charges, but if it is serious the DA doesn't ask the victim to press charges, they do it themselves and name the victim in the case and may ask the victim to cooperate (they may interview the victim, call them to testify in court or ask them to write under oath testimony, etc...) For this reason, at least here in America, I wouldn't press charges if the police was called and they got a report, the report is enough to trigger DA to press charges if they feel it is serious enough. As for what the Bible says about this subject of lawsuits....Matthew 5:40 "And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41 And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles." I think this means we are to suffer injustice and not pursue it in courts...Paul also says something similar 1Corinthians 6:1 "When one of you has a grievance against another, does he dare go to law before the unrighteous instead of the saints? 2 Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life! 4 So if you have such cases, why do you lay them before those who have no standing in the church? 5 I say this to your shame. Can it be that there is no one among you wise enough to settle a dispute between the brothers, 6 but brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers? 7 To have lawsuits at all with one another is already a defeat for you. Why not rather suffer wrong? Why not rather be defrauded? 8 But you yourselves wrong and defraud-even your own brothers!"......so lawsuits against believers is a no, no, rather suffer the wrong and if it is criminal, DA will deal with them without you having to press charges.

[@TheShadeTreeFixitMan]

Am I confusing this group with The Way International?

[@mmilioni]

We are not the way intl. I don't know if that group even still exists but there is no connection between Followers of the Way Boston and that group, ideologically or personally.

[@TheShadeTreeFixitMan]

@@mmilioni Thank you for that clarification.

[@carljones8334]

In Daniel 4:17 The Bible teaches that God raises up the BASEST of men. Is that who you vote for, if not why not? Do we vote for the BASEST of men, or do we go contrary to God's Word and His will? If you can't go along with voting for the BASEST of men, then simply abstain from voting and pray that God will raise up the BASEST of men, as He says He will. Do not confuse me asking if you will vote for the BASEST of men as asking you to vote, it is only to get you to think. God is the one who raises up men to rule in the affairs of men, and it is recorded that He raises up the BASEST of men.

[@citygirljace]

Direct action!

[@briansharp6805]

Anabaptists are very divided over that very matter. I however too must confess that in the past I have too often put politics over Christ :( Nontheless, being political cannot always be avoided. Being a Daniel is still possible, but in a different way. One can oppose injustice without being violent. Hans and Sophie Scholl have done so. Such is an example of NT nonviolence.

[@dorismahoney1440]

Do you folks elect your elders?

[@fotwboston]

You can watch our last two videos on church leadership to better understand how we do that.

[@dorismahoney1440]

Thanks Was wondering. I have a disability and get help frm the gov. What about those situations?

[@glennbalkin8247]

As much as I respect Donald Trump, in the end, only Jesus will win that fight. No one else will

[@SpencerLionheart-l9p]

Politics is a worthless game.

[@dansw0rkshop]

Whoa I don't buy that about U.S. presidents being a family line. Bush senior and junior would be the only exception I can think of, and Bill Clinton was the only president of his family (Hillary was a senator, not a president) that I know of. And who is Barack Obama related to? Maybe I'm just ignorant...

[@dansw0rkshop]

But yes the elite end up as presidents, I can see that. Great message BTW.

[@jeanpaulgartier3404]

They're all related to MOLOCH and chiun

[@Vettel2011]

Hello Matthew. I used to share your position, but again, voting of itself is not the sin. In fact, we must make choices in life. Christ said whosoever is not with him is against him. Is it wrong to vote for Trump? He sadly is an adulterer - now he cannot return to his first wife anymore tho due to her having passed - and very proud, but he did do things in God's name. He did not start any wars either. Pray that he may repent and get saved. Like it or not, those who did not vote for him, knowingly or not, would help electing Biden. Are we not to affect other people? I think we are. For Romans 13 shows that while we cannot serve the government, we still are to pray for them☺

[@christianmama2441]

@Vettel2011....those who serve Jesus belong to His kingdom and have no business promoting any other kingdoms that they happen to live in....I no longer vote and never will again, the kingdoms of this world will perish and it is a real distraction from godly living and doing what Jesus commanded us to do (ie love our enemies and overcome evil with good.) Voting for the lesser evil is still evil and not ok for christians.

[@Vettel2011]

@@christianmama2441 Scripture? If you feel like it is wrong to ever vote, alright so, but do not force your conviction on others. Sometimes, not being political is impossible. Preaching the gospel is the most political thing one can do.

[@christianmama2441]

@@Vettel2011 Preaching the gospel is telling others about a very different kingdom than the kingdoms of this earth....it is not politics of this world, but in fact it destroys all the kingdoms of this world in the end....Have you read Daniel's description of the Kingdom of God and what it does to earthly kingdoms? Daniel 2:31 “You saw, O king, and behold, a great image. This image, mighty and of exceeding brightness, stood before you, and its appearance was frightening. 32 The head of this image was of fine gold, its chest and arms of silver, its middle and thighs of bronze, 33 its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay. 34 As you looked, a stone was cut out by no human hand, and it struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold, all together were broken in pieces, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away, so that not a trace of them could be found. But the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth." Christians got no business with earthly kingdoms, we obey them as we are told but certainly they are not what we bleed and die for and our allegiance belongs to Jesus not to them. We are good citizens of earthly kingdoms because we don't kill, still and commit adultery and for these things we actually are a benefit to earthly nations...but other than that we live as strangers and pilgrims here on this earth looking for the promised resurrection.

[@Vettel2011]

@@christianmama2441 Voting for someone =/= killing people. You are right, we are not to fight in wars, you are right, we are to obey things that are not contrary to God, but where is the logic in saying we are not say anything that may be political? Christ Himself offended more than anyone else. I also disagree that we may be "good citizens". Yes, in God's eyes certainly, but not in man's. The world hates Christians. We are to call people to repentance and out of the world, therefore making an impact is not a sin. How could it be? As for Daniel 2, amen, but there is nothing that says Christians were to be "neutral". Now, if both candidates are ungodly - like Romney, Obama, McCain, Bush etc. - then not voting is the only right thing. But to deny brethren of having any impact is at no point taught in scripture. You are right, we are as strangers, but we are still to pray for our leaders to repent. We are to be the salt of the world and not just to look good for ourselves, but towards others. I have noticed that when the Amish have shown support for Trump some other Anabaptist groups have attacked them, even though the Amish are 100 %ly nonresistant. I believe a seperation debate is in vain, for the Amish do not condemn Anabaptist groups for using electricity despite their own belief that using technology equals being dependant on the world's system. God bless you sister.

[@Vettel2011]

@@christianmama2441 A great quote from a fellow Anabaptist called Stephen Wipf who made me rethink my position: "Many Anabaptists assert that voting is intrinsically immoral. To them, it is the equivalent of engaging in institutional violence, an act that IS clearly forbidden by Jesus’ teachings. Rome was not a free society in the way that we define a free society in our era and thus, voting is obviously not mentioned by the New Testament. The question is, is voting-something not even mentioned in the New Testament-an essential or non-essential condition of being a Christian? Assuming you believe the black race should be on equal standing along with all others, a condition no so long ago withheld from them, voting is with certainly a non-violent way of achieving good change in the world we live in. Paul says “23 You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of human beings. (1 Cor. 7:23 NIV) ….by this he meant do not become slaves to human traditions. Voting is not prohibited by any command in the New Testament. Paul also said: 21 Were you a slave when you were called? Don't let it trouble you-- although if you can gain your freedom, do so. (1 Cor. 7:21 NIV). During the Civil Rights movement in the 60s of our eras, blacks were justifiably freed from white oppression at the ballot box. Can you imagine for a moment Paul saying, “although if you can gain your freedom, do so, but don’t vote?” A perfectly NON-VIOLENT means by which to provide moral change in the world. In the Early Church era, to be in the Roman army was a 10-year sentence (correct me if I’m wrong), to try leaving pre-maturely meant death. Yet the Early Christians found a way by which to live within the structure, becoming nonviolent road builders or bridge makers, they were smart enough ‘wise as a serpent, and harmless as a dove’ to realize that even though they couldn’t vote their way out of the institution (Army), they could achieve what Christ wanted and still be in the structure putting away the noncompulsory violence by their willingness to die before being violent’ their “vote,” was their choice absent the ballot box" (Keep in mind I do not condone the NIV translation)

[@johnserrato9825]

giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in light.He has delivered us from the dominion of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. - Colossians 1:12-14 I'd rather be part of the Kingdom of God and have forgiveness of sins, than to trust in the kingdoms of this world and have no forgiveness of siins.

[@clintonjameshuddleston-apo9385]

amen

[@davidchupp4460]

It’s not binary. You can partake of our world here and still belong to the kingdom of light.

[@ahmedmirza5398]

@@davidchupp4460 If you vote, you have no right to complain. Romans 12:2. End of story.

[@davidchupp4460]

@@ahmedmirza5398 end of story. So basically your interpretation of that text means you can’t participate in any form of worldly government is that true? What is being conformed? Maybe start with a correct definition of conformed.

[@ahmedmirza5398]

@@davidchupp4460 We will not change the world. Sad, but true.