Vought F-8 Crusader vs. McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II

The Crusader became the ultimate "day fighter" operating off the aircraft carriers. At the time, U.S. Navy carrier air wings had gone through a series of day and night fighter aircraft due to rapid advances in engine and avionics. Some squadrons operated aircraft for very short periods before being equipped with a newer higher performance aircraft. The Crusader was the first post-Korean War aircraft to have a relatively long tenure with the fleet and like the USAF F-105, a contemporary design, might have stayed in service longer if not for the Vietnam war and resulting attrition from combat and operational losses.
The unarmed photo Crusader was operated aboard carriers as a detachment (Det) from either VFP-62 or VFP-63 to provide photo reconnaissance capability. During the Cuban Missile Crisis in 1962, RF-8s flew extremely hazardous low-level photo reconnaissance missions over Cuba.
The Crusader was not an easy aircraft to fly, and often unforgiving in carrier landings where it suffered from yaw instability and the castoring nose wheel. Not surprisingly, the mishap rate was relatively high compared to its contemporaries, the A-4 Skyhawk and the F-4 Phantom II. However, the aircraft did possess some amazing capabilities, as proven when several hapless Crusader pilots took off from Da Nang with the wings folded. The Crusader was capable of flying in this state, though the pilot would be required to lose weight by ejecting stores and fuel, and then return to the carrier.
When conflict erupted in the skies over North Vietnam, it was U.S. Navy Crusaders that first tangled with VPAF MiGs in April 1965. Although the MiGs claimed the downing of a Crusader, all aircraft returned safely. At the time, the Crusader was the best dogfighter the United States had against the nimble North Vietnamese MiGs. The Navy had evolved its "night fighter" role in the air wing to an all-weather interceptor, the F-4 Phantom II, equipped to engage incoming bombers at long range with missiles such as Sparrow as their sole air-to-air weapons, and maneuverability was not emphasized in their design. Some experts believed that the era of the dogfight was over as air-to-air missiles would knock down adversaries well before they could get close enough to engage in dogfighting. As aerial combat ensued over North Vietnam from 1965 to 1968, it became apparent that the dogfight was not over and the F-8 Crusader and a community trained to prevail in air-to-air combat was a key ingredient to success.
Despite the "last gunfighter" moniker, the F-8s achieved only four victories with their cannon - the remainder were accomplished with AIM-9 Sidewinder missiles, partly due to the propensity of the Colt Mark 12 cannons' feeding mechanism to jam under G-loading during high-speed dogfighting maneuvers. Nonetheless, the Crusader would be credited with the best kill ratio of any American type in the Vietnam War, 19:3. Of the 19 aircraft shot down, 16 were MiG-17s and three were MiG-21s.

[@jimpankey9161]

Having served 20 years in naval aviation, I had opportunity to work with about 17 different types of aircraft, including the F-8 Crusader and the F-4 Phantom II. I think both are awesome...

[@sidv4615]

Which one will win a dogfight at 10000ft with pilots of same skill

[@briancooper2112]

Thank you for your service.

[@dkoz8321]

Sir, thank you for your service. One question. Did you have a 1970;s-1980's Naval Aviator's bushy mustache? My understanding is that the air mask required it, and would not provide air to clean shaven crewman.

[@DesGardius-me7gf]

Both aircraft have advantages. The F-4’s big advantage is having two people-one to pilot, and one to monitor the radar. The F-8’s advantage is not being weighted down by bombs, and it’s speed.

[@georgehunter2813]

The Crusader is a clean, focused ass kicking design. Four 20mm cannons speak out for the gaping shark mouth intake. The North Vietnamese Mig-17 pilots must of thought it was the devil coming to get them. The dread.

[@spartanx9293]

@@georgehunter2813 honestly I would have laughed at the damn thing I love the f8 but it is not a pretty design

[@creoleDJ]

Great points! 👍🏽 Also, the F-8 was originally designed as a dogfighter; the F-4 was designed more as a “beyond aerial view” interceptor who’s missiles could take out enemy bombers without using guns..

[@guaporeturns9472]

@@creoleDJF-8 guns were constantly jamming

[@tonymanero5544]

@@guaporeturns9472That’s the public legend that the 20mm jammed under ACM. And the sidewinder IR homing in 1969 was unreliable. The F-4 to F-14 series represented the military reliance on BVR missiles over dogfighting, and still development of engines. Hitting 18,000 lbs of thrust took like 10 years after 12,000 lbs.

[@rans35pg]

I still remember waiting at FL500+ for phantoms to get on scene. Then whine "come on down and fight". So we did. Burner lit. Fight's on!

[@sidv4615]

I hope your aware that FL500 is 500,000ft above 100Km or 60 miles.

[@stijnvandamme76]

@@sidv4615 Shuttle pilot... in orbit.. come down and fight , Retro Burners on.. fights on.. Hard fight tho cause that big delta bleeds energy and theres no engine to regain :D

[@4rct1c9Ic3m4n]

"If you didn't fly the airplane, it was going to fly you"

[@Xylozet]

Yes, they flies you to heaven

[@mrGovnoff]

By the way, both the fighters have a great feature, it's their ability to get airborn with wings folded.

[@ceilinggod]

@mystinger72 I can see your point on that . The Phantom does have one big advantage . The power of it's engines and it's climb rate , but it has one very deadly weakness . Never get into a turning fight with any aircraft . Slashing attacks only . One more point the Crusader has the second best win ratio of all mordern aircraft . Second only to the F-15 , and thats saying a lot .

[@rwilkerson1950]

the F-8 made the first coast to coast super sonic flight flown by LTJG John Glenn

[@squach6239]

Rodney Wilkerson Was wondering where this comment was!!!!!!

[@emmettsummerford8040]

I thought John Glenn was a Marine. LTJG is a Naval rank

[@bigredlancer]

@@emmettsummerford8040 Major John Glenn USMC

[@aj-2savage896]

NAS Los Alamitos to NAS Floyd Bennett Field, in-flight tanking on the way. Glenn flew the photo version on this flight, the F8U-1P, and was accompanied by a fighter variant. The fighter had to drop out on the way, so Glenn set the record by himself

[@trumanstumo1718]

While serving in navy at Pax. River naval air test center in years 1960-63 i was a plane captain on the Chance vought F8U. in those years we were able to pull flight time in the back seats of the fighters. I being in the back of the F4- phantom we were testing did MACH 2 so i received a gold mach 2 pin that came from McDonald Douglas . Wont ever forget the great test pilots!!!

[@mystinger72]

@ceilinggod Yes, the story is that even while turning the F-4 was pretty alright. It had a poor rate of turn of course against the MiG-17, but it could stay with a -21, in fact, according to the Have Donut report they were pretty much equal in ever aspect save top speed (Phantom won). The F-8 could low speed turn better than the F-4, but the F-4 didn't bleed energy, these guys learned to stay fast and run a lag turn........

[@mossmusic8370]

Awesome! Thanks for the upload!

[@trainmanmills]

I had the privilege of building this aircraft early in my career at Vought----gave me goose bumps when she took off from NAS Dallas at our factory--- in full burner--- I did get to fire the guns during manufacturing

[@Semajsenrab72]

Still live the look of it, there was this and another looked similar. But still a huge A4 Skyhawk, A6 Intruder, F4 Phantom, F14 Tomcat

[@Semajsenrab72]

Crusader and the Corsair. Unique looking, had a style about them.

[@pauldunn9871]

What years did you build them there? My dad built AC there in 1957 but didn’t know what type

[@dethica]

absolute beauties! thnx for the upload

[@foxrecon19d]

There can be no mistaking that the F4 Phantom II is one of the all time greatest planes EVER! Even in the year 2011, over 60 years after it's first flight, the mighty F4 Phantom serves in frontline NATO units such as the German Luftwaffe, REPLACING THE ULTRAMODERN MIG29!! Having said that, in the air-to-air role the Crusader is "simply unbeatable." The only US aircraft with a better kill/loss ratio than the F8 is the F15 Eagle. (21/3 to 100+/0 respectively)

[@alecblunden8615]

I recall an RAF Lightning. - the real one, not the F-35 - piilot commenting.on the F-4:"Phantoms were never a probpem".

[@ti994apc]

The F-4 "in visual range" gave a distinctive smoke trail that made it easy to spot as seen at 3:05. The F-4 lost many Mig kills in Vietnam because it had no gun.

[@squach6239]

Chad Snow That smoke trail disappeared when the afterburners were lit off. My dad use to call Phantoms in for airstrikes in Vietnam. He said you could see em smoking along like a steam engine then .... they would disappear! Next time you saw them(if you were lucky)was when they rolled onto the target and made shit go boom!!!!! He loved working the Phantoms,but his favorite was the A-1 Spar/skyraider. Big low wing single engine prop job. Dad said would stay on station Forever!!!

[@squach6239]

Sorry computer didn't recognize Spad!!!!

[@foxbodyblues6709]

F-4 Also lost many MiG kills because the missiles were terrible. 10% success rate

[@WeBeYachting]

I liked this video mate, thumbs up. Cheers from the IGY Simpson Bay Marina, Sint Maarten in the Caribbean.

[@wrigg5006]

Dec 22 1969, rough day for both at Miramar.

[@charlesbukowski9836]

what happen

[@tomg.5194]

Loved this show growing up!

[@terryleejack]

outstanding aircraft,i was an fi8 plane capton for the crusader in vfp-63 stationed at nas miramar in the early 70's and i loved it,great video thanks

[@rayfarris5000]

so was !!! 73-75

[@TTTac]

they look cool and i cant remember where i saw it but they called the F-8 crusader the last gunfighter and i thought that sounds cool

[@WilmerCook]

As a youngster on San Deigo, we would get some beer and watch them take off and land at the top gun school at Maramar. They were fast!

[@johneasler9967]

Awesome, thanks

[@stevemccarty6384]

When I was in Pensacola in flight school the Navy replaced their F-8's with the F-4 in the CAP role. There was a blue bumper sticker that showed a pilot with a big tear in his eye. It said, "When you are out of F-8's you are out of fighters." Yep. The F-4 could be tricky but it was not any thing like the F-8 in air to air combat. Even the dinky A-4 had little trouble with the F-4 if the Phantom decided to stay and fight.

[@rudyyarbrough5122]

I flew the both and they both had their area of superiority. The F-8 of course would win in the old fashion close-in dogfight. But the F-4 had superior speed, climb rate, and armament. Most kills in every war are by surprise on the victim and the F-4 would be the best here with both AIM-7s and AIM-9s. The F-4 radar would pick up the F-8 many miles before the F-8 was even aware he was being tracked. They were built for two different missions but the F-4 was much more flexible and could carry 6 missiles while carrying over 10,000 lbs of bombs. I considered the F-4 a super-duty truck that went like a Ferrari! Loved them both.

[@YanYan1337]

Im in the usaf but the Crusader is BY FAR my favorite fighter of all time :D beautiful jet :D then comes the F15 and F22

[@jameskarney9577]

VMCJ-2 (Now active as VMAQ-2) flew both the RF-8A and the RF-4B as well as the EA-6A and RF-10B at the same time in the 1060s. Several of our F-8s (I was in the unit) took part in the Cuban Missile Crisis missions.

[@RockerWasRight]

You obviously never saw one in the air clean, it was beautiful. Skidmarks in the sky!

[@Nitromessiah]

F8 was from a time when the USA was great, having many aircraft for many roles. The F4 is from the beginning of the "dark days", the JFK/LBJ days when McNamara insisted we just needed 1 aircraft for a lot of roles and all the branches of service.

[@firstnamelastname3558]

Fighter pilots are amazing. I just didn’t really appreciate how smart and highly trained they are during my four years in the Navy. My focus at that young time in my life literally right of high school and into the Navy was weightlifting and girls.

[@TomCook-jw6ur]

First Name Last Name Now it’s just your BPH.

[@firstnamelastname3558]

Tom Cook, BPH?

[@firstnamelastname3558]

Tom Cook, benign prostatic hyperplasia (or hypertrophy)?

[@allgood6760]

Awesome.. Thanks 👍🙂

[@larrystonesifer7329]

Worked on Both at MUGU in 69-70. along with F-86 Sabre. Love the Crusader, but got to fly back seat F-4 AO-3 GMU -41

[@fourfortyroadrunner6701]

Spent 4 years at Miramar. USN, 69-74, ETR-2, GCA RADAR and TACAN maintenance.

[@Colonialpara]

The French Navy flew F-8 Crusaders off FNS ARROMANCHES and CLEMENCEAU right up until the late 1990s.

[@RK807]

And that's why they had their asses handed to them at the Falklands.

[@sillyone52062]

@@RK807 ???? The Falklands War was between Great Britain and Argentina.

[@KillerKev1961]

I served under LtGen PD DRAX Williams at El Toro. He was the CG at the time in the early 1980s

[@fourfortyroadrunner]

Miramar--my station 70-74, maintained GCA RADAR and TACAN. Helped install new FPN-52. Our shop off back end of "boresight" range used to sight F8, other guns I feel old--first of F14's showed up '73 or so, now obsolete already.

[@drguffey]

My dad was an F3-H Demon pilot, early 60's. He saw a flight of 4 F8's flying up the coast of California and could not resist buzzing them. He flew just above them in full burner. Are there any F8 pilots who remember such an incident? Dad always wondered what they thought of his 'flying' skills, LOL.

[@kirkconway]

the crusader has always been my favorite Navy Jet. \ lotta designs come and go but the F-8 had it all, and always gave the pilot total Confidence.in every situataton.

[@exenrontexas]

@terryleejack I served on the USS Bon Homme Richard as ship's company on the last cruise in 1970. VFP-63 was our photo recon squadron. I was a PH and we got good shots from them.

[@immortalass]

oh god oh god dont make me choose these two may be my all-time favourite fighters. these and the viper.

[@squach6239]

Dick Buttwhats a viper?

[@cecilpotter1229]

The Last F-8 fighters in the Navy, VF201&202 out of Dallas TX

[@QatanI]

I was in VF-201 1972-75.

[@USNRaptor]

This excerpt is from Discovery Channel Seawings: The Last Gunfighter

[@arttafil6792]

USN Raptor, the Crusader was “The Last True Gunfighter”!

[@arttafil6792]

USN Raptor, I did mock dogfights against Crusaders with Experienced Pilots. My F4 was no match in any engagement! USMC Naval Aviator, VMFA542 & VMFA323 RVN, DaNang, Chu-Lao 1966, 67 & 68. Simper-Fi!

[@discofishing]

where's the rest of this video?

[@Szarko32c]

victory via superior training, radar technology, situational awareness and weapons reliability.

[@TomCook-jw6ur]

When you’re out of F-8s; you’re out of fighters!

[@UnknownUnknown-nx7ov]

Interesting video. But why did the US adopt F4s for the CAP and why did only F4s produce aces in Vietnam?　Is the amount of engine power the decisive factor?

[@scootergeorge9576]

You are correct on all counts. But back in the day, the Navy really wanted multi roll, multi engine, 2 seat fighters.

[@justforever96]

:45 Crusader looks like a cross between F-16 and a Harrier! Sort of...drooped wings and a big tail/single engine, anyway. Does anyone know what sort of "scope" is shown in the F-4 at 1:25? Is that a "B"-scope, or a "C"-scope, or what? I've been trying to figure out. I don't remember; I believe the circle shows the target ahead of you, how far it is left or right or above you, and the line at the bottom shows the range. I'm not sure. The little lines may be the vectors of other planes?

[@CounterClaws]

I have this and a documentary of the F8 on VHS

[@1guitarlover]

The F4 was simply beautiful and effective.

[@ChefMackWhittier]

I love the Phantom

[@conner6926]

I love the Corsair?

[@discofishing]

Can anyone comment who has flown both of these aircraft? My would be on the Phantom, especially with the F-4N and F-4S models with the leading edge slats which adds better maneuverability.

[@ChallengerGuy22]

would have been nice if they actually gave hard numbers on the 2 aircraft and how they did vs one another feel free to point me to other vids thanks

[@redDL89]

Vought later built an advanced version of this fighter, the Crusader III. Word has it that it was so maneuverable it could fly circles around the F-4 Phantom. However, for one reason or another it was not adopted for service and so the few airframes that had been built were transferred to NASA for aeronautical studies. The NASA test pilots would sometimes fly their plane to a nearby Navy training airspace and troll the F-4 phantom pilots training there, in mock dogfights. In all the engagements the F-4 phantoms were soundly defeated, and the trolling stopped only after the Navy complained to NASA about the harassments.

[@birkensafttt]

Phantom had 2 crew members and 2 engines. That was the reason why Navy picked the F4.

[@ericbrammer2245]

+redDL89 The F-8K should have won the competition against the F-110 [F-4], as it was far more maneuverable, faster, a better climb rate, carried missiles, bombs, but unlike early Phantoms, retained Guns ('cause, see, it could TURN, and put Guns ON Target, something a Phantom had trouble doing, even once it got guns [or a Vulcan, aimed Down a bit] ). In this era, the designers who didn't talk to pilots thought Missiles could achieve air kills. Sidewinders did, but would, rarely, lock onto the plane that fired them (well, an F-4, on 'burner' is hotter than a Mig-15, 17, 19, or 21!) McNamara was all hot + bothered to 'consolidate' designs (usually, unfortunately, along AF requirements, not the Navy's needs to land on a moving, small, distant ship, at Low speeds), and the Phantom ticked off many AF 'checkpoints' for his wishes. The Super-Crusader was a different critter (although, had it been built, would've been at the fore for AF fighter requirements well into the F-16/F-15 era, with only the Eagle being able to catch it, and the Falcon/Viper being able to out-turn it), and the Single-Engine issue is often, lamely, put forth as the excuse for it's cancellation. Navy Commanders should've looked around a bit more, as their were, in the this (the late 50's, early 60's) no less than 9 types of combat aircraft, flying for the Navy, using only one engine. {A-1, A-4, F-9F(both versions, Panther/Cougar),A-7, F-8,FJ-3, FJ-4, and Demon [oops, forgot it's #; FH-3? maybe]} So, with the F-8k's better performance in any arena other than toting bombs, (well, perhaps the Yet-to-be-invented-Weasel role) and range (note, tankers are available!), it had to be a matter of Politics, which, obviously, Mc Namara was really an ass at. Near Mach 3, in '61, is no joke. Being able to turn with nimble Soviet-block fighters is no joke. Having both Missiles and Guns became very clearly a matter of survival for fighter jocks (heck, even the F-105 got gun kills!). And, Mc Namara's approach to the TBX program ( which did give us the nifty F-111) certainly showed that a Ford car exec. should not get involved when trained military airmen are risking their lives based on his poor decision-making abilities. The F-110/F-4 did evolve into a good plane, but it wasn't the plane needed, in the roles it was envisioned to fulfill in the War in 'Nam. One can only wonder how it came to be that the Super-Crusader wasn't the 'Top Gun' 55 years ago.

[@KB4QAA]

+ERIC BRAMMER Ahem. Very nice exposition. Unfortunately you ignore facts, aircraft capablies and the requirements of the Navy. The F-4 better met the requirements of long range carrier battle group defense. It carried a larger radar which met the long range requirement and had a dedicated RIO to make best use of it. Vietnam has no bearing in this discussion, coming years later. The F-4 was the right plane at the right time as history has proven. The selection of the F-14 as its follow on further cements the F-4 concept as correct. Both were outstanding planes. F-8's were great, but had their time. b.

[@ericbrammer2245]

Well, thanks for the compliment, I guess., I re-read my post, and man, I need a proof-reader! Or, at least quit typing after the 1st 6-pack. Anyhow, my point wasn't to the F-4 Phantom vs. the F-8 Crusader II, really. It was to the fact that the Crusader III was a better plane than the F-110/F-4 in most regards. The Phantom did have better range, better radar (certainly true later, with the 'E' upgrades) and an extra pair of eyes with the RIO in the next seat. These are all things that the 'K' version of the Crusader could've also been modified to accept in terms of the air-frame's growth potential. I think it could've been a plane that had 3 decades+ of service life. The Phantom, at least, did pave the way for the F-15 and F-16, as it's obvious flaws meant that a more nimble, gun-toting plane should be the next generation of fighter. We're now moving (badly) away from the lessons of the F-8/F-8K/F-16 towards a replacement of the F-105 with the F-35 program. Another 'Hog' won't win in air-to-air fights, and I don't think the USAF nor Navy is likely to buy Rafaels or Grppens anytime soon! If our Military doesn't use history to learn from, what's guiding their future?

[@KB4QAA]

ERIC BRAMMER Don't disagree. However, stealth improvements give a tremendous advantage against both aircraft and missiles. The USN released in 2015, a study of air-air trends showing improvements in radars, missiles and missile warning (ECM) systems are driving engagements to occur at longer and longer distances. Guns engagements are few, ACM/dogfighting is less common and less than 30% of engagements even require manuevering to improve missile parameters. The unbroken trend is larger aicraft with longer fuel range to avoid AAA missiles, carry more radar/electronics, stealth features, long distance engagements. Cheers, b.

[@rajeshreddy2805]

Crusader v/s phantom sounds like a Hollywood movie

[@artemiafarrar5008]

Film was cut short!!

[@ti994apc]

Good points, I like the Cat in a BVR battle for sure, esp F-14D. However, close up I like the Crusader. The F-14 and F-4 were huge aircraft. I always get surprised how large they are in person. Yet, a Crusader would probably be an easy kill for F-16 close in.

[@sparrowlt]

The F-14 (specially the B/D) was a excepcionally good dogfighter.. specially for its size.. wings spread and flaps droped and it could rate turn pretty good and sustain it..it also had better thrust to weight than the Phantom so it could fight in the vertical even better .. even in the early F-14A it could match the F-15A in turn rate.. the F-14B/D was said to be able to put in trouble even a Viper with a good driver at the stick..

[@michaelbreckshot6589]

I thought I was watching Area 88

[@BradiKal61]

Im biased for the F4 since my dad flew them in the Air Force . The Phantom had such big shoes to fill that its replacements ended up being the F-16 AND the F-15

[@Derek-je6vg]

Crusader all day every day

[@mrp8488]

So who won???

[@Flyboy207]

@DJtaka86 Yeah, but you still have 2 underwing tanks.

[@Yosemite-George-61]

Hello, I'm trying to reach someone esperienced in the Crusader's guns. I just got a 20mm round that came from a French 'sader (I live in France) The round reads : 20mm MOD.0 5-68 RNO, looks like the firing pin has been fired, the case is empty but not sure about the bullet. Not sure if it's safe....

[@squach6239]

Jorge Picabea Heat it up real fast in the oven! If it kills your oven it wasn't safe! Just kidding, use a propane torch instead.

[@mystinger72]

@ceilinggod Actually, you would be wrong. when the Nayy stood up Top Gun, they put together a pool of pilots that could fly the Rhino better than anyone, pilots who were not afraid to learn the a/c. These guys figured out how to beat the shit out of the Crusader boys. After a few days the F-8's were getting worked, the F-4 guys had figured out how to fly in the vertical

[@Sub___Zero]

@BadenBuccaneer In fact i compare Phantom with EF.In Frisian Flag a greek AUP shot down a RAFALE using IRIS-T missile!Of course(as usual) thats UNofficial cover.Now tell me how is that possible?Its the plane or the pilot?I think both.

[@scootergeorge9576]

Kills beyond visual range were probably very few. It seems one or more F- 105 Thuds were shot down by mistage. After that, visual ID was required.

[@ti994apc]

F-8 Crusader vs the Tomcat, who would win?

[@mcqueenfanman]

I don't know if that happened at Top Gun.

[@terryleejack]

@fourfortyroadrunner haha i was also stationed at miramar nas in 73 to 75,with vfp-63,nice base too,fightertown usa!

[@billbright1755]

“ Tooter Teague “ Bossier City Louisiana.

[@Mishn0]

For everyone saying, "the Phantom is junk because it doesn't have a gun", exactly ONE Crusader MiG kill was a 100% gun kill in Vietnam. All the rest were missile kills or gun/missile kills. Those guns don't seem that useful to me.

[@jackboyer1280]

If you run out of missiles which happened a lot due to ripple firing of them & if you didn't have a gun the only choice you had was to run like your life depended on it because it did

[@royperkins3851]

Ask the Israelis what a jet is without a gun I'll tell you dead,you can only carry so many missiles and in the worse cases the damned things don't lock or launching causes sensor failure then you had better pray that little pop gun works or you'll be a very dead hero! Life isn't a video game or a simulator you fck up up there there aren't any fcking mulligans!

[@19580822]

Never understood why they didn't upgrade the F-8 with the M61 Vulcan cannon. that old Colt cannon was an unreliable dog in a turning gunfight. Explains why F-8's had so few gun kills in Nam.

[@Diadema033]

Maybe because there was not enough space inside?

[@19580822]

Not likely. Look at the F-4. When it first came out it didn't even have guns. Missiles only. Eventually they were retrofitted with an external gun pod, then the E model was released which included the M61 cannon. I think it's more likely that they were already thinking about discontinuing the F-8, and didn't want to go through with a big upgrade on a nearly obsolete aircraft. Too bad, because the F-8 was a better matchup in a dogfight with the Mig-21 than the F-4 was.

[@stevemccarty6384]

We didn't have the Vulcan gun when the F-8 was designed and built. The 4 MK12's worked okay. I never flew the aircraft but it must have been a blast sitting in the cockpit when you touched off those guns! An F-8 with Winders and guns would have been a great fighter.

[@mcqueenfanman]

Maybe if the Air Force bought the F-8 they would have the M61.

[@justforever96]

The two greatest air-superiority fighters in the world? The F-8 was an air-superiority fighter. The F-4 was designed as a long range fleet defense interceptor. It's great power made it able to keep turning without loosing speed, but it was a hog, and not an air superiority fighter. The fact that they used it in that role eventually, means nothing. At the time this video was filmed, this was a fleet air superiority fighter vs a fleet interceptor. Period. F-4's were for stopping bombers before they could attack the fleet; F-8's were designed to take on enemy fighters. Also not really correct to say that "air combat tactics haven't changed". The overall fundaments of it are the same, but the actual tactics have changed a lot. In WWI, you tried to ambush your opponent, and then you'd both keep flying in tight circles; whoever turned tightest often got the kill, or if one tried to turn away, he could be killed as he rolled out of the circle. By 1945, the rule was "dive and climb". You'd try to attack from above, and make an attack past, and then climb again for another try. The fighter with the best climb rate and speed had the advantage. A fighter with greater maneuverability could use it to try to throw your aim, but he couldn't use it to catch you; you'd just keep out climbing him and attacking in a dive. If you were foolish enough to enter a turning fight, your speed advantage would be lost, and he'd out-turn you, get on your tail and kill you. So saying that "the rules haven't changed" is like saying that "the rules of infantry combat haven't changed, because the idea is still to shoot more of the other guys than they do you"

[@canadiannuclearman]

Question: if the F8 was a fighter air superiority and the F4 for interception of bombers. What is the diff? Why not use the F8 for both roles what is it about the F8 that would be less effective againts a bomber then the F4. don't you just sit back and shoot a sparrow at the bomber regardless if its an F4 or an F8. that is just have F8's on the carrior to save money???

[@casey19660]

@@canadiannuclearman notice you got no response from the guy.

[@stickmanblubbles4489]

@@canadiannuclearman The F4 had a higher top speed and many more missile hardpoints, which is great for intercepting and shooting down bombers before they bomb. The F8 was more maneuverable, which is great for dogfighting fighters.

[@canadiannuclearman]

@@stickmanblubbles4489 thanks

[@stevemccarty6384]

@@canadiannuclearman The F-8 wasn't a bomber. The F-4 was and it carried two kinds of air to air missles. It was the MacNamera era. At the time we pilots believe that Mac cashiered the F-8 (in the fighter role) to save bucks. The Fox Four made a lot of smoke and noise but it really was not a "can do all" fighter liked they hoped it would be.

[@d.n.b.dnejati5356]

All of the U.S.AIRCRAT Top in the world , but F-4 PHANTOM II another's this aircraft not having same as , nice flying and show fighting with F-8 . Good luck 👍👍 I am very interested The United States aircraft and very best for me F-4 PHANTOM II .

[@ti994apc]

Aircraft like the Saab JA 37 Viggen (with canards) and the Saab Draken fighter (with cranked arrow wings) were so fare ahead of their time compared to both of these aircraft of the late 60's.

[@squach6239]

Chad Snow Were also a generation later!!! That's like saying my 2016 Peterbuilt is better than a1965 Pete !!!!!

[@kblackav8or]

@USAFBuster No actually it will be some big chopping machine in the Arizona desert. Then they will make soda cans from what is left. Should save more of them in flying conditions as they are awesome to watch at a show.

[@williamjohnrigneyjr1839]

I like them both. But I have always been partial to the Crusader!

[@stijnvandamme76]

Radar must be employed to find the adversary. Or you can you just looks for the massive cloud of black smoke coming out of them J79 engines

[@csmorris903]

The F-8 Crusader is one of my favorite US Navy jet fighters

[@johnrovylucena4212]

F8 crusader is the best for me

[@maximilliancunningham6091]

" When you're out of F-8s, you're out of fighters " F-4 America's proof to the world, that with BIG enough engines, even a brick, can fly."

[@peterforeman5803]

Yes. Just gr8

[@onblock7]

The F8 could turn with them at slower speeds to it was much more successful. The F4 was built as we know as an interceptor and the BVR they could not use for some reason (stupid needing a visual ID) in which they would have been alot more successful. The Gun being added would have helped alot with the way they were fighting. I did not know the Sidewinders scored most of the kills for the F8! Thanks for that fact. That does change things on the way the Russians think lol.

[@JimBeer61]

@terryleejack , my pops was xo for two years and then CO for 1 year of VFP-63 during 72-75 i think. Hope he wasn't to rough on ya!

[@rayfarris5000]

I watched the XO bust his ass off last step , plane was going into hanger and didn't go thru pits , it was a little high scared us all!!

[@Sub___Zero]

@BadenBuccaneer Listen,i like F8,especialy the 4 vulcans(now THAT'S fire power). But Phantom is something else,its the No.1 name global,and HE is still flying.Here in Greece we have the best Phantom in the world aka AUP,and i am very proud.

[@gtamodman122]

The Crusaders came out of Vietnam as complete victors, and the funny fact is that they got most of their kills with Sidewinders.So much for those Russians who think it was Vietnamese skill that brought those Phantoms down lol! As for the F-14, well I don't even want to know, haha

[@scootergeorge9576]

Two generations ahead of it's time? Only if you start your timeline when the aircraft began development in the early fifties. The Saab 37 Viggen prototype first flew in Feb 8, 1967. The F-4H Phantom II made it's first flight on May 27, 1958, and entered service in 1961. Over 8 years earlier. The F-16, one of the greatest fighters of all time, first flew in 1974. Actually, a U.S. Navy top gun pilot in an A-4F could take on a viggen one on one and win.

[@gtamodman122]

Which is something that doesn't happen? Long range, I assume you don't really need someone to tell you. Up close, the F-14 was big but also turned pretty good, so that's generally a good question.Depends on the loadout of the cat as well.

[@ti994apc]

What if the pilots were exactly the same skill?

[@royperkins3851]

The crusaders were mainly dog fighters (guns) the phantom was technically a missile bus the advantage at a distance is the phantom but in a guns close the crusaders were top dpgs!

[@mystinger72]

@ceilinggod In a lag turn you run a slightly bigger circle slightly faster than your opponent. Mugs McKeown, Jack Ensch, Tooter Teague, Houston, and Pettigrew all knew the F-4 inside and out, knew how to make it do thing most of the F-4 pilots in the WORLD didn't think possible. The story goes that they learned and then went out and psanked the "Saders, then said "you'll have to do more than sit back there and kill us.....

[@Sub___Zero]

@BadenBuccaneer F4E MIG KILLER,and WORLD'S LARGEST DISTRIDUTOR OF MIG PARTS.How'sthat shortie?

[@melangellatc1718]

Interservice rivalry? The Navy/Marines flew both the F-4 and the F-8...

[@onblock7]

F14 was a great long range interceptor and it was primarily made to be that. The F14D with the newer Engines could turn alot better though and it was very capable as far as a dogfighter! It could turn better than most think. Phantom was a long range interceptor too because of the BVR, the cat was a better Jet overall in which it replaced the F4. The F8 had problems man, read up on the losses of the jet so it was not without flaws. I would take the Cat over both anyday in a fight.

[@stijnvandamme76]

Tomcat was newer Gen, theres really no comparison.. it would be like comparing F22 to an F15: with equally capable pilots , F4 eats it every day and so does the F15 against an F22

[@maximilliancunningham6091]

Title is a little mis-leading. though great commentary, and viz, it boils down to BOTH, America, rah, rah, rah,, No honest appraisal there.

[@durandil]

"In the 1960s, the Crusader and the Phantom were unarguably the greatest air superiority fighters in the world" Tell that to the pilots of Hanoi Hilton. Some of them were shot down by Migs...

[@edwardpate6128]

The VAST majority of those guys brought down by AA and SAMs

[@ricardosoto5770]

Most were shot down by AAA and SAMs.. The kill artes of the F8 vs Migs were superb. Of course TVE Migs got some F8s bit the F 8 became the Mig master. The kill artes of the F 4 va Migs were not as good bit still superior.

[@stijnvandamme76]

@@ricardosoto5770 The biggest ace pilots over Vietnam.. top 15, are Vietnamese not US. Obviously they had the luxury of defense pop up and flying over home turf, pick their fights and battles. And if shot down, would recover in home country But in any case, the top aces of the conflict are Vietnamese

[@Sub___Zero]

@BadenBuccaneer I tell you a secret.some pilots from each wing,are trained in advance technics of their aircrafts.We call that SOT,which means Tactical arms school (Like TOP GUN).Perhaps the PHANTOMANIAC that shots Rafale was graduate from there.

[@Yosemite-George-61]

Hahaha ! Thanks !!

[@justforever96]

3:00 People always say that the F-4's smoky engines were a disadvantage, but I think they are wrong: one look at that thing pouring coal smoke into the sky, the enemy's going to assume he's already been shot down and leave him alone. Then, when his back turned, the Phantom can shoot him in the ass! Or, better yet, the Phantom can just use it jet exhaust as its own personal smoke screen; you can't shoot what you can't see!

[@bubbaclinton1105]

Ummmm no. Dirty exhaust was an advantage for the dinks especially since their avionics weren't nearly as good.

[@charleswilson7371]

I'd still take the F-8 over the F4. More agile.

[@stijnvandamme76]

well former F8 pilot Hoser; when introduced to the F4 at VX4 was mightily impressed by the F4 and said it would have ben the better plane IF it would have had a gun. So with the F4E I'de say the Crusador would have been obsolete either way

[@kayakutah]

@Szarko32c That would be incorrect. I've fought against both.

[@ti994apc]

F14 was a good long range interceptor (and was a nice looking aircraft), but not such a good dog-fighter. Tomcat took an unbelievable amount of maintenance and service hours to maintain.

[@KB4QAA]

No, the F-14 was NOT a maintenance hog during most of its service. Only near the end as the planes aged did this become a factor. The airframes were tired and worn out.

[@stijnvandamme76]

Then explain to me why the F14 had the best kill Ratios at AceAimVal where the USAF and Navy pitted their newest planes against Topgun flown adversaries for a couple of years to develop tactics against face shooting IR missiles (Aim9L) The 2 highest kill ratio pilot/rio teams... were F14 tomcats flown by Hoser and Hill Billie and Turk and Fearless respectively. the F15's didn't come close and that was all Real live intercepts and ACM. No rules (other then the Tomcats weren't allowed Phoenixes) it was equal terms, Guns , Winders or Sparrow. Intrecepts 1v1, 2v2 2v many Day after day after day Tactics evolved and each pilot "killed" respawnd the next day so the learning curve was much accelerated compared to actual war It was the ultimate masterclass of ACM , Brand new Tomcats , Brand new Eagles and the Tomcats came out on top.. No contest. Either the USAF has to admit that the pilots they sent were not as capable as the Naval Aviators, or the Tomcat was the at least equally capable to the F15

[@scootergeorge9576]

Big deal. The Wright "Flyer" had a canard. Both of these aircraft were disigned in the fifties. Have you ever noticed how many countries flew the Phantom II?

[@squach6239]

Scooter George 'Purt near all of the "Good guy"countries!! Hahaha!

[@squach6239]

Oh yeh the French did also!

[@ceilinggod]

@mystinger72 Actually , we are both right . Long range the last thing you wanted to deal with was an F-4 ... Up close and visual if you saw an F-8 go ahead and punch out and save yourself some trouble .

[@Rampant_Colt]

ten years ago this is what Discovery Channel used to be like. Now it's Airplane Repo, 14yr old American Chopper reruns, and Alaskan Bush People "reality TV" programming that has nothing to do with reality

[@hafizfirliansyah7784]

F-8 and F-4 Replaced By F-14 and F-18.F-8 and F-4 As Part Of Century Series Fighter.