Voyager Reviewed! (by a pedant) S3E10: WARLORD

[@Unlimited_Lives]

Today's thought experiment: Does the use of the Doc's gizmo constitute the Federation conducting an execution?

[@gingergrant1057]

I assume it’s similar to Trill symbionts (the personality and memories are retained) so whatever their ruling on those are.

[@supremegodemperorpalpatine4872]

Perhaps it is execution. Though considering what Mr. Body-Snatching Space Hitler was up to, such might not be wholly unjustified.

[@Alexander-wx2ie]

In a similar situation is DS9 , the "pieces" containing the councius of the criminal were give back the proper authorities of its planet. Then , his custodian proceed to poop yellow over them because she really hated that bastard , because it always came back. .... So yeah , always execute the highjacker of other bodies/consciousness

[@oXogon80]

Controlled Resettlement

[@truebluethecat]

Some may consider it an execution however, taking over her body was clearly aginst her will with clear evidence that he inteded to stay and not move on (where there was somewhat of a case for Jolinar when it took over sam carter in sg-1 where they stated they did not intend to stay in sam), and thus his removal could be seen in a similar fashion as taking out someone who is holding another hostage.

[@SirMarshalHaig]

Can we now consider how much fun the mirror universe version of this episode would be? A warlord transferring his mind into an even worse person than him, who absorbs his knowledge and takes over his world with the people thinking Kes is him and she then leaves Voyager to build her own evil empire and force everyone to have a garden, so she can finally see all the man eating monster plants Janeway never let her grow fully in all their horrible glory.

[@kerravon4159]

Jennifer Lien gave an amazing performance in this episode. I really wish they came up with other stories where Lien could flex her acting muscles, because she absolutely could have delivered if given the chance. But in general they seemed to have had no idea what to do with the character.

[@Unlimited_Lives]

I do wonder at what point the reported on-set issues with Lien started to manifest, and whether this was a factor in deciding how many stories (and the subsequent workload) she was given. Which is a terrible shame, as Kes is the most likable character in the show for me.

[@kerravon4159]

@@Unlimited_Lives Most of the reports I've heard stated that the cast liked Lien and had no problems working with her. Of course that's just the cast, the writers and directors might have had a different opinion. Whatever the reasoning I do agree it was a shame that she was mostly kept in the background. Her anger and intensity in this episode was just brilliant and she sells every second of being possessed by a warmongering despot. Personally I would have put up with Lien's issues (if any) just to get *that* sort of stunning performance out of her.

[@paulgifford4688]

In fairness, many portraits of long dead tyrants are considered artistic masterpieces after 200 years.

[@TenniellesChannel]

Keep them coming 😁👍I'm rewatching all of these with my husband. Excellent work, thank you

[@Norvo82]

Well, I'll say this about Warlord: At least Jennifer Lien is more convincing as a bad guy than Doctor Bashir when DS9 told the exact same possession story in The Passenger.

[@mb2000]

I was thinking the same watching this review. At least she doesn’t do that cartoonish slow evil, cringy voice El Fadil put on.

[@Norvo82]

@@mb2000 You mean Rayyyyy... Oh. Van-tik-aaaah? Despite that bit of cringy acting The Passenger is a pretty enjoyable by the numbers Trek episode.

[@mb2000]

@@Norvo82 😂😂 Yeh it’s okay as far as Season 1 episodes go. I’d have liked to have seen the ‘dying race’ Kobliad again as that sounds quite interesting. Don’t they trap Vantika in Quark’s door lock gizmo too!?

[@Norvo82]

@@mb2000 They did. And then Vantika got summarily executed by the Kobliad security officer that had been after him for years. No questions asked.

[@Alexander-wx2ie]

Scary Kez is always a treat

[@HappyBeezerStudios]

Both her and Neelix are always more interesting when their role in the episode is about their relationship.

[@Monty10501]

My brother in law just introduced me to your channel, I've binged all your episodes over the last two days. I love star trek and have watched voyager many times, yet your commentaries touch on elements that I never saw for whatever reason. I love how insightful and hilarious your reviews are, please keep it up and I so want you to review DS9 after Voyager.

[@Unlimited_Lives]

Not sure where we're going after these, but I'm glad you're enjoying them so far!

[@moonkey2712]

Totally agree! This guy's reviews are funny and insightful

[@Mecharnie_Dobbs]

7:36 "Don't you see Janeaway? This could turn into a civil-war!Your involvement would prevent that, by making it an interplanetary war."

[@Knightfall182]

Great performance by Jennifer Lien. That kid is going places ⚡

[@nisselarson3227]

Lol.

[@der.Schtefan]

Famously no

[@BladeZero238]

If only.

[@nisselarson3227]

i think the portrait of the 200 old dictator was part of their new set design, kes did tell them to change things to look like when he was boss.

[@thegreenmanofnorwich]

I did love the battle between Tieran and Kes, especially as by the time she's really going for it, his side is no longer the throne room, but has turned into her quarters.

[@Unlimited_Lives]

Good piece of visual storytelling there, I agree.

[@der.Schtefan]

This episode is often cites by Jeniffer Lien's co-cast as one of her brightens moments, but also one where they noticed her INNER STRUGGLE first. They realized she was not only acting, she was drawing from experience, that they sensed something very dark inside her. She was let go after 3 seasons, only after repeatedly insisting she is mentally unwell, and after she quit, never acted again, even stopping voice over work completely. In the last few years she was arrested for a couple of criminal charges, and ordered to undergo mental health treatment. Sad.

[@trueshy]

She acted as a nurse in a film after she quit Voyager & did the films with the Shaggy actor & Ben Sisko so you're wrong on all accounts.

[@cha02psc]

I laughed every single time at “Dr Cocknose” 😳 I love this review series 😂

[@Unlimited_Lives]

Sometimes the universe provides its own jokes. Who am I to argue?

[@BintyMcFrazzles]

I wonder if Dr Cocknose's cock looked like a nose?

[@eme.261]

I appreciate that you took notice of Voyager's writing relying heavily on the sexualization of female baddies and taking umbrage with it. As a young woman, this was one of the issues I had with the series and eventually what caused me to stop watching altogether. When they brought Jeri Ryan in and gussied her up as a walking sex doll, I stopped watching. I returned to watch the original airing of the finale (part II), but it would take another 20 years for me to watch seasons 4 through 7 in their entirety. I checked out Enterprise midway through its first season when it became apparent they were defaulting to the same tired and insulting tactic with the character of T'Pol.

[@DissociatedWomenIncorporated]

This is possibly your best video yet. I loved the Chakotay speech…-non-bubble, and I enjoy the commentary you’ve been doing recently at the end of episodes. Gexualised female baddies is sadly gonna keep being a thing for the most part… although I suppose the Borg Queen’s somewhat similar behaviour is more because that’s how she was portrayed in First Contact, so Voyager’s not strictly to blame.

[@DissociatedWomenIncorporated]

Collar of Authority, Royal Leash of Command, and Ball Gag of Ultimate Power technology? These people are _begging_ to be assimilated (possibly literally). I just can’t see a way the Borg Queen wouldn’t throw as many cubes as needed to absorb _that_ biological and technological distinctiveness, if you know what I mean 😂

[@Unlimited_Lives]

Great, now the Borg Queen is a dommy mommy in my headcanon. At least this one can't be blamed on Voyager.

[@ptonpc]

"Welcome to Mistress Janeway's Dungeon of Pain"

[@DissociatedWomenIncorporated]

@@Unlimited_Lives I’m not sorry, it’s exactly the right way to perceive her 😁

[@hunterpdx7061]

@@Unlimited_Lives Yeah this one is kind of on you for bringing it up to begin with lol

[@DissociatedWomenIncorporated]

@@hunterpdx7061 _You will lower your clothes and be escorted to Sector Zero Zero Dungeon_

[@sonadagothalus]

I always thought it was interesting to play the sexual element through Kes when she tries to seduce the younger brother as a means to get his support. If this was played like most body swaps where you see the original actor playing the role seeing a grown man perving over a younger guy would never have been tolerated in the mid 90s, but doing it through Kes who then flips to quasi Lesbian with trying it on the with widow and suggesting all 3 get on well is a brilliant way of showing some level of gayness whatever way you view it. Amazingly this is never really touched on by any review when it adds a great dimension to the manipulation shown by villains and the counterpoint of Kes dumping Neelix for similar behaviour.

[@loveller]

I’m so torn. I want to use the Ball Gag of Ultimate Power I just don’t want to have to wear it in my mouth. Can I just hold it in my hand and still make it work?

[@Unlimited_Lives]

I'm pretty sure it'd be against KZbin terms of service if I told you to hold a ball.

[@moonkey2712]

As a self described "white British person," you asked with a straight face why they would keep a portrait of a tyrannical despot from 200 years ago??!! REALLY??!!

[@Unlimited_Lives]

Oof. But also: fair.

[@kestrelgaming554]

"You're just got fantom zoned" The storm troopers school of guarding I see. This could of gone in a very different direction, I'm sad it didn't. 😔

[@jodieg6318]

I was about to talk about how I alway found psychic shenanigans Kes always pretty good because the writer seemed to have more to work with there but then you mentioned the femme fatal trope. It’s seems to be so ingrained that I didn’t even notice it till now and how all the female presenting villains have all been sexualized. I wonder if this is the grassroots of 7 of 9; the main female characters of Janeway and Torres are in-charge career women who not presented as sex symbols and in light of the observation I wonder if the show runners were trying to fit some cheesecake into the show wherever they could.

[@Unlimited_Lives]

The inclusion of 7 of 9 felt like a cynical move to me when it first aired, but teenage me was a contrarian bellend who opposed things purely for being popular, so we'll see how it plays out now I'm willing to give her a proper chance. I will say the common consensus is that sex appeal was the reason, but then the common consensus is also that Voyager is all terrible so I think we'll make our own minds up.

[@faeldray]

7 of 9 was absolutely added for the sex appeal. However it seems that the writers were able to work with what they were given. At least from my memory from the last time I watched the series, she actually had some really good storylines and character development. I went into the series expecting not to like her (as I generally don't like one-dimensional sexy female characters) but came out the other side liking her quite a lot.

[@HappyBeezerStudios]

Yeah, Seven was clearly added to apply to the horny market. But she turned out to be one of the most well rounded people in the series. She develops more personality and character traits than Harry Kim, and he was there from episode 1.

[@rickacton7540]

@@HappyBeezerStudios "well rounded " well at least ryan had that going for her, lien was a more interesting person

[@Selene-ex1jz]

Voyager's security upgrade was just a voice message made by Tuvok that plays whenever someone tries to hack security and it just asks them very nicely if they wouldn't reconsider what they were doing as it would be very naughty and bad and the Captain would be ever so happy if they stopped. Success rates would prove mixed.

[@Unlimited_Lives]

And the cockpit console displays a popup about this being unauthorised use, like an unregistered copy of WinRAR, before just letting you take off. Delicious. Oh god, I've just realised I live in a world where there are people on the internet who aren't old enough to know what WinRAR is. Is... is this what being middle-aged is?

[@BintyMcFrazzles]

At the beginning of the episode, Neelix is getting a foot massage from a female Talaxian, and seems to be enjoying it. He is then dancing with some scantly-clad women. Wonder how he'd react if Kes received a foot massage from a male Ocampan and then danced with some scantly-clad men? Personally, I reckon Neelix's response would be rational, measured and generally cordial, without one ounce of jealousy or hypocrisy. Just like he is whenever Kes speaks to anyone other than him.

[@Unlimited_Lives]

The hypocrisy is strong in that one. The funny/disturbing thing is, I read a bit on Neelix's character design and the fluffy hair and round teeth were supposed to be so that he was marketable as a toy to kids. They made the child-targetted character have a deeply toxic attitude towards relationships. It's a bit like saying Jar-Jar should refer to all women as "bitch". Utterly bizarre.

[@moonkey2712]

"fucking mind bullets!". Sir, your constant pop culture references are incredible

[@AvatarRiku]

Getting the heir of the man who overthrew you to willingly submit and exploring a new method of manipulation seems like something a BBEG would do. Bonus if their kids inherit psychic shenanigans BBEG can use as new hosts to erase his enemy’s bloodline.

[@davec4274]

Yes a new episode. Thank you @unlimited lives.

[@Unlimited_Lives]

You're entirely welcome.

[@CaptainAllen47]

Who trains these guards he said. They have someone from starfleet in their ranks. Even starfleet would be proud

[@Unlimited_Lives]

I should have guessed based on being surprised when Tuvok's crew were competent in Distant Origin.

[@inthestudy]

I don't want to raise any alarms, but Crewman Derek is acting highly suspiciously since 0400 this morning. Apparently, he bought Chief ooooblblblblooooblblbl a tuna burrito with his replicator rations. Last time he was up close with one of Cancer Shift, Derek tried to eat them. He was also on time to his shift, worked quietly and wore full and undamaged uniform. We've let the XO know, but haven't heard back yet. I'm hoping it's soon, because all but one of our Astronav are hiding in the panic pool again.

[@ptonpc]

It's all fine, we found Crewman Derek's bloodstained and ripped long johns in one of the Jeffries tubes. There is no possible way he is some shape shifting alien.....

[@moonkey2712]

Woah, i just realized, the original host of tiran in this show was still acting the same after tiran downloaded into kes. This seems to indicate that the download is more of a copy than a transfer. This reminds me of the question of the transporter: if just the data of a person is transported at faster than light speed, doesn't the transporter just kill the person and recreate the person at the new location using the data? Discuss

[@Hogtownboy1]

The gibberish where teran/kes gives ridiculous demands is straight out of the a Woody Allen film Bananas where the new dictator tell everone the from now on the official language of San Marco is Swedish and everyone must wear their underpants on the outside to prove they are changing them daily.

[@raymondcoventry1221]

Neelix truly is a revolting creature, it just took a dead tyrant's ghost to point it out

[@windgraceproject]

Fun Fact - This episode and "The Thaw" were almost never shown in my area when Voyager was in re-runs. I am not sure why. Yes, I was the guy who stayed up until midnight to watch Voyager on Fox when I was in high school. Does that make me cool? I suppose the world will never know.

[@Unlimited_Lives]

Possibility of why they were skipped for re-runs: Above average blood in this one and The Thaw has executions? I wonder if Crispy Romeo in Remember caused it to share the same fate.

[@windgraceproject]

@@Unlimited_Lives I suppose that's possible, but since I never Remember Remember (This should be a band), I guess we'll never know!

[@mb2000]

Doesn’t really matter who trained the alien guards when they all have to wear big thick black veils over their faces so they can’t see shit! I always thought that Tieran moving from Kes to Autarch’s Other Son was because Kes had the transfer implant, but Other Son didn’t, so once Tieran was there, he was stuck? I don’t know, it’s been a while. I did like that Kes and Tieran’s mental arguements had him in the throne room and her in her quarters, and as she gets the upper hand he ends up in her quarters too.

[@Unlimited_Lives]

Yeah, those veils aren't exactly great military gear. The helmet part doesn't even work as Paris wallops one of them with the side of his gun and it offers no protection. Tieran transfer business: the implant provides the means of transference, and a new one is installed in the host afterwards. Perhaps the other willing hosts from the past had one implanted prior to transfer, but that wouldn't have been the case for Autarch's Other Son. Other Son may not be the most worldly wise guy, but "I'm totally trustworthy and have no plans to take over your body, but would you mind going and getting this implant that can only be used by me?" is probably a bit suspect even for him. All of which means that the Doc's gadget shouldn't have worked to wipe Tieran from his mind as we were specifically told it affected the implant. The throne room/quarters thing was a good touch. Interesting fact (hopefully): I read that the quarters sets are all modular with multiple pieces that can fit together to form different rooms of different sizes. It's likely this modularity that made the scene possible.

[@moonkey2712]

Also also "monarch a tois"!?!! Wow.

[@noahlogue]

I imagine the painting was put up by Tyrran .

[@Unlimited_Lives]

But from where? Did he get someone to paint it after taking back control? From what reference? If not, why was one already available?

[@noahlogue]

@@Unlimited_Lives maybe all crazy third Reich style he hid a bunch of art and stolen treasure in caches and vaults

[@alcohol-freebeer3642]

The soldiers on both sides are clearly highly trained LARPers kitted out with the finest costumes and face masks money can buy.

[@Nesenda]

i forgot about this episode and ds9 had one EXACTLY the same

[@Unlimited_Lives]

I don't remember that episode in the slightest despite my fondness for DS9, which probably bodes ill.

[@Nesenda]

@@Unlimited_Lives "The Passenger" 1.09 and yes, not a good ep imo

[@dougsmith6262]

That annoying ass sound he's making during his foot rub still haunts my dreams.

[@sanddagger36]

Tuvoc and the doctor are the main reason Kes leaving is sad. Tom and Neelix and their relationships with her were interesting to watch but hard to root for (the opposite really)

[@Unlimited_Lives]

Yeah, those are far more healthy interactions.

[@HappyBeezerStudios]

In a different show from a different producer we would have a big Neelix/Kes/Tom/B'Elanna relationship web going on

[@ptonpc]

This was one of the better ones. I would have preferred to have seen a Kes that isn't 'sexy time' but is more 'It's murder time'. On the other hand, at least Kes got to chew some scenery. The only reason I could think of to bring Neelix into a combat zone would be to use him as a meat shield or just shoot him in the back.

[@Unlimited_Lives]

Wait a minute... were Neelix's terrible suit patterns a form of camouflage all along? Is that how he keeps surviving?

[@ptonpc]

@@Unlimited_Lives That makes sense, most species find their vision is overwhelmed by his outfits and their gaze just sort of 'slides off' ?

[@Cuttlefish2202]

Of course Neelix decides that the resort of eyecandy women in bathing suits and erotic footrubs is absolutely the best place to take his much-younger girlfriend on a date. More seriously, I feel like they missed an opportunity to refer to Tuvok's own experience of brain blending with Suder, given that he's the only one offering Kes any support afterwards.

[@oXogon80]

Kes really grew on me. Can't wait how her story arc develops in the next seasons, her aging faster and all that. That's some unique drama opportunity, even for SciFi. I hope the writers rose to the occasion.

[@Unlimited_Lives]

Tom_Hardy_Thats_Bait.gif

[@nicoleackerman205]

Oh I am sorry.

[@moonkey2712]

I really appreciate how you use he/him pronouns for terian even when he is in kes's body. It is terian and he doesn't define as a woman.

[@epiendless1128]

the ball gag of ultimate power is nothing compared to the arm binder of supreme dominion. also, i can type with my nose.

[@hanksbest-frend2491]

RIP Dr Cocknose

[@PrincessOzaline]

I agree about the sexualization I think maybe it makes sense a bit with Autarch's other son, as a power grab, but the jealousy from the wife isn't used and the stuff with Tuvok is just pushing it and icky.

[@GnomePickles]

What kind of bugs me about body take over stories is that they are such a violation of the characters person but it is so rarely addressed. It feels like a missed opportunity.

[@Unlimited_Lives]

There's definitely an argument to be made that Tieran using Kes' body in seduction attempts is a form of sexual assault against her. Another one to throw on the Trauma Pile that we never address, along with Kim and Ensign Mum from Deadlock.

[@KingSidJames]

Ah yes, here we are with the well worn trope of if lesbian (or any alternative sexual preference) then the character must wear leather or some form of collar, strap or fetish wear. How else are the audience to know? This sad tired trope also features in too many eps of DS9.

[@MadScientist512]

How TF is someone supposed to take over a planet with 400 troops?! Star Trek really has a problem with grossly underestimating population figures, with most advanced alien planets barely approaching Earth's current population at most.

[@VersieKilgannon]

Neelix reminds me of BTS' Jimin 😅

[@Treklosopher]

Did they fire all the good writers from TNG and DS9 before starting Voyager or what? It's just a God awful parody of the previous shows.

[@nickhowitt3896]

I enjoy your summarizing remarks. This episode is no exception. I agree that it doesn't make a lot of sense for Kes to be sexualized in this manner. Curious though, is it objectionable on aesthetic grounds, poor writing and character portrayal, the fact that it's illogical, or some combination? A fourth possibility occurs to me, and that is that it's objectionable simply because it sexualizes women....and this is...automatically bad? One could argue that it's unnecessary in a show like star trek because such lofty views of humanity ought not focus on the banal and carnal when there are more sophisticated themes to explore. Unnecessary yes, but in poor taste....I don't know

[@Unlimited_Lives]

There nothing intrinsically wrong with provocative appearances and behaviour (as long as we're all on the same page with regards to consent). The reason this grates is because the trope of a sexy baddie is only wheeled out when played by women. As I said in the video, it's 3 out of 3 by this point. I think the writers recognised this to an extent, and tried to counter it with Tieran acting the same way to Kes in the dream sequence, but I'm struggling to think of another time when a male antagonist has behaved similarly. The closest I can think of is Q propositioning Janeway in bed. Whilst problematic for its own reasons, it's played as a joke rather than something that was written to tick the sex drive box. Perhaps if he was wearing tight-fitting leather and heels, I'd think of it as comparable.

[@FailSonOfAnarchy]

Would have been funny if after this Kes had started being in favor of authoritarian systems.