Why Toyota And Hyundai Are Wasting Billions On Hydrogen Cars

[@KingUnKaged]

Working the cash register as a hydrogen fueling station has got to be the most chill job on Earth

[@AncientYouth64]

Just don't have a 🚬

[@Cap_management]

Until the station explode.

[@viktorianas]

It is chill indeed, for the refueling process, the hydrogen must be cooled down to -40°C

[@internet_userr]

​@@viktorianas Bro just got the joke 😮‍💨😮‍💨

[@UCXEO5L8xnaMJhtUsuNXhlmQ]

​@@internet_userr I had thought the joke was a reference to the fact that nobody would go there and you'd get to just sit around all day, chilling

[@UnbreakableM1nd]

As someone who has worked in pipeline transmission before and has a degree in metallurgy, Hydrogen infrastructure is just stupid. The gas are transported in liquefied state, you have to keep it under enormous pressure. This is like transporting Liquified Natural Gas (LNG). They keep LNG terminals far away from where people live. Hydrogen filling stations are just plain dangerous, especially if you have it close to residential areas. The hydrogen itself can also accelerate the deterioration of metal and make it brittle over time, leading to unpredictable failures. The filling of hydrogen vehicles is extremely finicky. You are releasing pressure from a liquified tank and into your vehicle. The pumping process will make the nozzles freeze due to Venturi effect. There is a ton of engineering work needed to make it safe and convenient. I think it will likely become a case where you need a specialist to fill the car for you, because a Joe Schmuck out there will mess it up and cause a massive explosion at the filling station. Right now it isn't that popular, but just wait until the masses and Karens start filling up vehicles with Hydrogen.... the potential for disaster will grow. Thank god it's not popular, I bet the engineers who worked on the infrastructure realized it's not feasible on large scale. Why does Japan want Hydrogen cars? Well, they don't have any fossil fuel resources, but have lots of ocean and nuclear power. The government must have figured out to be self reliant, they should probably use nuclear or other green power to generate hydrogen from seawater. EV Batteries means relying on China for supply. Gas cars means reliance on oil import from abroad. Japan has no good choice left and is forced to consider Hydrogen. For North America, we shouldn't even consider hydrogen cars.

[@DeLorean4]

This is the best explanation I have ever read. I always wondered why the Japanese kept working on the technology after the early 2000s when the American OEMs realized it was a waste of time.

[@Terkini-pr1nj]

Maybe few year . Methane to hydrogen conversion in gas station more common . So . Its more safe . Plus metal hydride for hydrogen storage in bicycle more common in China. In matter of time . ICE car using hydrogen everywhere

[@fenrirgg]

The have to rely on other countries always due lack of natural resources. Even for Japan it would have more sense to use electricity and batteries instead hydrogen. They are being stubborn in that bad idea to save face or something.

[@benchpress200]

Fantastic insights. Thank you!

[@kendalson7100]

Well said!

[@kennethkueh1256]

Either they don't understand science or they have a technical breakthrough up their sleeve.

[@aaronparys1750]

The Cells require replacing eventually (5000 hours).. which is a added maintenance cost and these companies like that idea

[@nulnoh219]

You gotta not only build a car, but convince people build an entire hydrogen chain. Creating an entire industry around it. While competing with li battery industry.

[@ChineseKiwi]

And established supply chains and infrastructure via that electricity (and in the case of biomethane, established natural gas infrastructure)

[@th3oryO]

And, at the end of the day, you're still competing with the gas/diesel equivalents, at least to some extent. Tough gig when there isn't any significant performance benefits.

[@Brad_Fallon]

Hydrogen cars, it's the future. Big Oil is done!

[@wizzyno1566]

​@@Brad_Fallonno

[@Brad_Fallon]

Hydrogen will be everywhere. Hydrogen is the future!

[@flashoflight8160]

The sole reason why EV is the only viable alternative to ICE is the ability to charge at home if you own your home. EV would be borderline unusable for me if I had to depend upon unreliable public charging. There is never going to be hydrogen charging at home.

[@Keylevitation]

Socks that so many public EV charging points are already busted

[@chrisja1998]

Exactly. And in extreme situations. EVs can charge from a normal wall outlet. You would need a gas station for an ICE vehicle. And if you are very extreme a couple of solor panels, a battery and an inverter, and ALOT of patience and time. And you are off-grid with your EV. Free charging, can't say the same about shtty hydrogen cars.

[@rogerfroud300]

Efficiency is also an important metric, as is simplicity.

[@SillySausage-mq3so]

Its funny EVs are being banned from Hospitals in the UK, don'ts want to burn them down :( Garage no where near safe :(

[@chrisja1998]

@@SillySausage-mq3so its sad that this misinformation is spreading and actually being enforced. EVs are NOT more likely to catch fire than the counterpart ICE vehicles. In fact it’s the opposite, probably because EVs tend to be newer and that can’t be said for all ICE vehicles. But it’s undoubtedly harder to stop an EV fire. And just google the statistics. I know they are out there. I read up on it when a friend of mine also claimed the statement that EVs catch fire more often.

[@ccmangb]

Consumers still think that cars have to be filled at the station, and waiting an hour for a EV to fill up is ridiculous. Thats why the short filling time of hydrogen seems to be the solution. The thing is that for EVs, your own home is the gas station, and since you're parking it there for hours every day, there is no actual wait. You can't do this with gas and hydrogen cars. Granted, long trips require superchargers, but unless you are driving hundreds of miles every day, all you need is some travel planning for long trips.

[@duncanmacleanjr]

The key comment in the video concerns Japan not having oil and natural gas reserves. Nuclear took a hit after Fukushima. Offshore wind farms is another growth area, but both countries are not going to put all their eggs in one basket.

[@reappermen]

That's the thing though, Hydrogen as fuel is not an energy source, just energy storage/transmission. The hydrogen has to be made either from imported fossile fuels, or from energy. Either way it doesn't solve the problem, it makes it worse as you lose the vast majority of the power to get to hydrogen either way

[@Brad_Fallon]

Hydrogen will be everywhere. Hydrogen is the future!

[@ferrocone]

The irony of Toyota running an ad for me on this same video of a gas powered Toyota Tacoma...

[@ddhurry4168]

I want a north American Champ...4wd version preferred

[@n0namenate]

I got mercedes EQB electric lol

[@MOBMJ]

mine was a Mazda AD

[@Deontjie]

I hope the Tacoma looks better than this ugly duckling in this video.

[@SeanPannella]

Step one have cheap nuclear power, until you have very cheap electricity it will be hard for hydrogen to be viable, however cheap electricity is likely in the future so running hydrogen powered devices as an RD project makes sense, hydrogen heating may be a better use case if we find better organic batteries in the future that don’t require metals with limited supplies

[@MrPikkoz]

Burning hydrogen to heat houses it's a very dumb and inefficient idea , if you burn steam reformed hydrogen (94%of currently produced hydrogen worldwide) you put out more co2 and it's more expensive, if you burn hydrogen made from renewables it's it's way more expensive, and very inefficient, because if you use the same amount of hydrogen to produce electricity via fuel cells to feed heat pumps , you are still more efficient than burning the said hydrogen for heat in first place.

[@mustangthings]

It’s amazing how expensive these cars are to run now that True Zero is charging $36 per kg.

[@letsburn00]

Note that this is the equivalent of

[@arnoldvosloo220]

@@letsburn00 If you watched the video, he points out that at $10/kg it's already uncompetitive with ICE SUVs. Nevermind the fact that the 2030 goal of $2.8/kg is beyond a joke now - can throw the rest of their fantasies out the window.

[@tellyboy17]

@@letsburn00 You van expect 70 miles from 1 kilo of hydrogen so $36/kg hydrogen would compare to a hybrid driving on $20/gallon gasoline.

[@onlypranav]

@@letsburn00 It's actually 3 times as energy dense not 10 times. Simple google search would tell you the energy content per kg

[@Brad_Fallon]

Hydrogen will be everywhere. Hydrogen is the future!

[@noahderrington5156]

Imagine an analogy of two solutions to get water to houses: 1- the water is distributed by an existing network of pipes and infrastructure to the houses, you open a tap and water comes out. 2- you take water at a source, use huge amounts of energy to freeze it, put it on a freezer truck and drive it to a place near the houses which uses more energy, invest in expensive new freezer infrastructure to keep the water frozen until people come and collect it that uses even more energy, when people get the frozen water home they need to use more energy to defrost it so water can come out of the tap. 1= electricity to an EV 2= hydrogen to a hydrogen car Anyone can instantly see how totally insane option 2 is without needing to understand anything else about the technology.

[@xoukilong]

$180 to go 350 miles 🙄

[@HeavyDevy89]

If you'd like a bit of a 'down and dirty' engineering level explanation on the question of hydrogen, check out Paul Martin's Linkedin - he's a chemical scientist with the University of Toronto and lays out very plainly why H2 simply won't work in passenger vehicles.

[@someonewhocares999]

Hydrogen cars are a dead end. Hydrogen can work for planes tho

[@GSimpsonOAM]

Unlikely. The energy density of hydrogen by volume is so low compared to kerosine. Hydrogen in 681atm storage tanks is 5MJ per litre Kerosine (jetfuel) is 35MJ per litre. The Hydrogen tanks need to be seven times the size of the current fuel tanks.

[@redacted3610]

LA resident here. Never have seen the hydrogen KIA's. Meanwhile I see a hydrogen Toyota's every week at least

[@shosc16]

I wouldn’t call it ‘wasting’ - especially is it’s testing and deploying unconventional and new technology. Everything costs money. People said the same thing about ‘wasting billions’ on the internet, EV, blockchain. Shortsighted analysis this video is

[@TacticusPrime]

... blockchain is definitely a waste.

[@devinward461]

​@@TacticusPrime agreed

[@shosc16]

@@TacticusPrime I can see it heading that way, but we wouldn’t have known without the investment that’s gone in it

[@tripplefives1402]

it's ironic but the first combustion engines invented ran on hydrogen gas sourced from coal mines.

[@gabrielrousseau_NM]

The airship engines could also switch to run on hydrogen.

[@JimboSlice-t5i]

​@@gabrielrousseau_NMIt literally can't go tits up

[@DumbledoreMcCracken]

Where a ton on u2b channels talk a lot, but say little, this channel says a lot in a condensed way. Excellent script work.

[@ticspin4191]

Love this channel. Keep up the brilliant work

[@delinquense]

One of my favorites. Always topical and concise. Well researched and communicated.

[@resevoirdog]

Although you aren't wrong lol

[@JoeRogansGutBiome]

I remember when Arnold Schwarzneger did that hydrogen publicity stunt when he was governor of CA.

[@jeffmorin5867]

I don't recall anything about what you said, could you elaborate a bit?

[@wikipediafollower]

@@jeffmorin5867 Arnie is basically the reason the Humvee got converted into the Hummer, and they made him a hydrogen powered H2 while he was governor

[@zapfanzapfan]

That was 20 years ago before EVs had taken off.

[@thermitebanana]

It seems so weird to me that the whole zero carbon emission thing is based on facing up to the scientific reality of climate change, but the premise of hydrogen fuel vehicles is "What if physics and maths were different?"

[@pagannova3621]

that's because you understand the flaws. if only everyone did, we could actually solve unnecessary emissions...

[@--Nath--]

Laws of thermodynamics? Japan laughs at them.. but it makes zero difference.

[@pyros4333]

You understand that climate change is a natural part of the ecosystem, if anything it'll just create a greener earth. It's a cycle

[@mathewritchie]

I think that we will see commercial fusion power before hydrogen powered cars are successful,sometime after 2330 a.d. maybe?

[@cenzoredworld]

Probably be a commercially viable fusion powered flying car by the time hydrogen becomes "viable."😆

[@Funktastico]

japan US collab to fasttrack fusion plant dev. and commercialist , announced 4 days ago

[@randomaccount53793]

The only way hydrogen makes sense is by creating a bigger energy supply than needed and using excess energy to create pink hydrogen. This would act as a psudo-battery storage of sorts. But as we know, Japan closed all their plants down so it is more of a pipe dream.

[@TacticusPrime]

Yeah, I can't see any argument for fuel cell vehicles, but research on green hydrogen tech in general is a good investment.

[@Funktastico]

Japan restarting nuclear plants program since last year

[@Brad_Fallon]

Hydrogen cars, it's the future. Big Oil is done!

[@wizzyno1566]

​@Brad_Fallon no

[@MrFuckwit999]

Even if you have a large supply of green Hydrogen, it would make more sense to use it for fertiliser production, which is where most H is used.

[@epithos]

2 million for a gas station sounds like a lot but that's about the same as permitting and installing a greenfield drive through coffee shop on the Colorado front range in 2018. That number was either very dated or an outright lie.

[@michalfaraday8135]

2 million is way less than the actual cost. Those experimental stations are small for 30-40 cars per day. A station that would replace a typical gas station would likely be 10x more expensive. In Prague a H2 station for 20 cars/day cost over 6 million dollars :-(

[@shadowninja6689]

Elon Musk was 100% right when he called Hydrogen Fuel Cell vehicles "Hydrogen Fool Cells", because only a fool would ever buy one or believe that hydrogen will ever win out in the market place for consumer transportation.

[@JJ-zr6fu]

Of course someone with their wealth intrinsically tied to the EVs would disparage fuel cells that are a sounder technology. The problem is the development of fuels is way behind EVs

[@Tokamak3.1415]

@@JJ-zr6fu If you take a high school level chemistry class you will learn the simple concepts of entropy, energy of activation and the laws of thermodynamics. There's no "development" you can make that surpasses the fundamental way molecules have energy states as Einstein has shown that for non nuclear reactions energy cannot be created or destroyed. Unless somebody at Toyota or Hyundai manages to get a self sustaining fusion reactor going at commercial scale, hydrogen is dead for private vehicle use. It was dead before it started because hydrogen is not made as a waste product by any normal conventional chemical processing. Whoever fed you the sounder technology line doesn't know a Bunsen burner from a pipet.

[@nulnoh219]

I think they should build the hydrogen production facilities first.

[@samsonsoturian6013]

Let me guess: Tax breaks and PR?

[@puddles5501]

pretty sure these guys are betting on fleet sales

[@Kabodanki]

waiting for the EV craze to end, so they can go back to sell gasoline cars without much loss

[@hospitable_ghost]

This is what I was thinking, as well.

[@JimmyDoyel-by2cp]

They can't compete with China, so they try to forge new path, they play the long game and only time will tell if it payoffs.

[@letsburn00]

​@@KabodankiEVs and plug in Hybrids will be practically all cars within 15 years. It's not a fad. H2 for cars is highly dubious though.

[@maroon9273]

​​@@letsburn00evs is unreliable and useless.

[@Nobody-st7xh]

You need electricity to make the hydrogen? EVs with extra steps. 😂

[@randomaccount53793]

Extra steps and also incredibly inefficient. Hydrogen makes the 15% efficiency of ICE cars seem reasonable, until you realize EV's are more like 80% efficient.

[@gabrielrousseau_NM]

It’s a recyclable battery. Endlessly recyclable. It is also the size of the oceans. There have been small towns moving underwater for decades using this tech although they apparently throw out the hydrogen and only use the oxygen.

[@wmpx34]

The first model will be dubbed the “Hindenburg”

[@Doggieman1111]

Hindenburg 2: Electric Boogaloo

[@Brad_Fallon]

Hydrogen cars, it's the future. Big Oil is done!

[@wizzyno1566]

​@@Brad_Fallonno

[@JamesR1986]

People dispraising EVs in favor of hydrogen power vehicles in 2024 are just an exercise in doubling down and not wanting to admit they are wrong.

[@samsonsoturian6013]

This space thinks both are wasting money

[@sourlemon3337]

It doesn’t help that these hydrogen cars have really boring designs. Part of the appeal of these “startup” EV companies is their unique car designs that stand out.

[@schlichter11]

Many if not most of the refueling stations are broken around LA most of the time. Like EV charging stations its a total roll of the dice if you can actually get to a working station before your vehicle dies.

[@ThinkTwice2222]

Subscription model with home delivery of hydrogen... Boom

[@willardSpirit]

Rather spend this money and all the VC and investor's money on AI cars (about 150 billion)and shift towards public transit

[@nb6525]

You missed an important point. Its not that Japan doesn’t understand or care about practicality, cost of EVs. Unfortunately most of the supply EV chain is heavily exposed to China, which creates a risk if they built an industry on that.

[@bltzcstrnx]

If Japan focuses on BEV from 1990 instead of hydrogen, they would already be competitive with China right now.

[@hellfire6372]

@@bltzcstrnxConsidering China's competitive edge stemming from cheap labor and lithium harvesting rights, the US finds it challenging to compete. What opportunities does Japan possess?

[@bltzcstrnx]

@@hellfire6372 the US is also late to the game. Not to mention, they have internal problems with environmental groups and local tribe lands. If they're serious, they do have large domestic lithium deposits. One of the main reasons for China's hard push for battery technology is crude oil politics. The US doesn't have this incentive. Crude oil supply chains are mostly controlled by Western countries. China finds this as a threat to their nation security, hence their push for other alternatives. One of those alternatives is battery technologies.

[@Tuppoo94]

​@@bltzcstrnx "National security" is newspeak for "imperialist ambitions".

[@bltzcstrnx]

@@Tuppoo94 all countries does this. Japan Hydrogen ambition also stems from national security concerns. Same with why the US forbids Huawei from their country. In the case of energy, the US is in a safe spot when regarding crude oil supplies. This is why they have low ambition in battery and EV technologies.

[@dougsheldon5560]

It's a small molecule, it leaks out.

[@Chris.Davies]

You mean "atom" of course. Hydrogen is an element, and hydrogen gas is comprised only of Hydrogen atoms. And it is (of course) the smallest atom.

[@kolbyking2315]

​@@Chris.DaviesGaseous Hydrogen forms a diatomic molecule, H2.

[@henryD9363]

Smallest molecule to leaking is an issue that has to be worked out. Hydrogen is very flammable. And it does not produce any visible light whatsoever. Zero. It does produce ultraviolet light but no visible light. You can look at a night launch of the space shuttle and you can see there's no flames coming out of the main engines. Just the boosters. So you could have a hydrogen leak with a very energetic flame and you cannot see it.

[@viktorianas]

If my arsehole is able to contain methane (leaks only sometimes), and you say there isn't technology to contain hydrogen??

[@JimmyDoyel-by2cp]

No they combine to form H2 to balance the electron shell, so technically it is a molecule.

[@stigbengtsson7026]

Hydrogen I wonder why ? 🤔. The fuel cell is not easy fix, it only gives some volt per cell, you have to stack hundreds, and everyone has to have hoses with oxygen and hydrogen to maintain the process, if you get any dirt into the system the power will drop. The fuel cell, as I been told can not accelerate good enough, so you have to have a battery. If you are outside in cold winter you have to keep the cell warm, or it will freeze apart, it contains water. And as others have said, to fill up is a hazardous thing, hydrogen is worlds smallest atom, it will take any chance to leak. Japan has got a lots of nuclear plants, if I am correct, they also produce hydrogen as some kind of biprodukt.

[@BrankoDimitrijevic021]

So... WHY are Toyota And Hyundai wasting billions on hydrogen cars? Is it just about scooping-up a few government subsidies or is there something more to it?

[@xiaoka]

Because they want an excuse to not go electric. That’s Toyota’s motivation at least.

[@tullochgorum6323]

Not really true. With the Prius they produced the first viable hybrid, and they have spent $billions on a state-of-the-art solid state battery that they claim will recharge in 10 minutes. It's already on the road in prototype vehicles, and they intend to start rolling it out commercially in the next 2-3 years. It will initially only be in hybrids, because of the high initial cost. But once they achieve economies of scale it should be a gamechanger in mainstream EVs. As for ICE technology, they are merely pointing out that much of the developing world will have to rely on it for many years to come, so we should still be developing more efficient ICE vehicles.

[@Nobody-st7xh]

​@@tullochgorum6323Toyota doesn't make EV batteries at scale. They would have to contract CATL even if their tech is superior

[@tullochgorum6323]

@@Nobody-st7xh So? Tesla use 3rd party manufacturers too, and the Muskrats seem to think that's just fine...

[@randomaccount53793]

While hydrogen has been a big flop, their bet on hybrids has been a good one. They can make several hybrid battery packs for the same cost as one EV battery pack and that reflects in the purchase cost. Now that EV's seem to be going out of vogue, they stand to benefit greatly. We will see more governments take the New Zealand approach by removing all EV subsidies and charging EV's/PHEV's for road use. Currently EV sales have fallen off a cliff there because hybrids are the cheapest to drive.

[@epstein_isnt_dead7726]

For those who haven't figured it out yet: The push for EVs is for one reason. Because China can't make ICEs. Just look at how many Chinese ICE cars exist. Zero But cheap batteries, cheap motors, and cheap steel are right up China's alley. Today China is the top manufacturer/seller of EVs globally. You probably thought it was Tesla but it's not even close. That's it. No other reason, China has bought your politicians and turned them into sign spinners for their cheap cars

[@BureaucracyWorld]

They just wasted money. It's a hybrid car with adding 50% of cost of the hydrogen components into it. The hydrogen fuelcell (or membrane) stacks need to be replaced every 2 years and it cost $2500 among other parts like filters/evaporator, etc. The car is dangerous normal technicians can not work on it. It need special trained technician to work on hydrogen system.

[@simplemechanics246]

Because wind farms have massive amount surplus and hydrogen production is possible to calibrate on real time, it means every wind farm must make own hydrogen production or any other alternative fuel production. It should be on law if anyone want to open wind farm. Currently wind farms loose about 50% thanks for peak production, when they can sell ZERO production. That number goes only worse if green production nears to 30% from total production. Over 30% means they earn may be 25% only from total production as real sale. So green energy is so wasteful

[@johnsamuel1999]

You could just store the excess energy in a battery. Its far more cheaper and efficient compared to hydrogen which has the expensive infrastructure and less efficiency

[@skierpage]

Yet no wind or solar farm bothers to do what you're proposing. Electrolyzers and storage facilities and H2 pipelines aren't cheap, and if you only make hydrogen some of the time your capital expenses go up. Green hydrogen in a nutshell: Step 1: build lots of wind and solar to generate megawatts of renewable electricity you need to split water. Step 2: scrap plans to make expensive green hydrogen, and just sell the electricity onto an existing grid for more efficient uses. Optional Step 3: Install batteries so you can maximize use of existing transmission and sell electricity when you're not generating and it's more valuable.

[@ryuuguu01]

Use batteries or off-river pumped hydro to store the energy. Japan already has 25GW of pumped hydro generation they built to store energy for nuclear power. It has many mountains right up the coast in unpopulated areas of the country so building a large amount of pumped hydro is not a problem.

[@Mayangone]

I used to work on coal conversion, using hydrogen, which caused embrittlement of steel. To counter the embrittlement, I used expensive 316L steel for all vessels and piping.

[@Mountain-Viking]

Much easier to plug in at home and charge at night for a fraction of the cost. Driving off with a full tank every day.

[@regolith1350]

Gas cars produce climate anxiety. Electric cars produce range anxiety. Hydrogen cars produce explosive instant death anxiety.

[@Zebrasus137]

Well Ford already built a gas car for explosive instant death

[@arkexplorer9328]

Ive given this some thought, short and sweat you need to get rid of that mixture in a crash no matter what, can we configre the mixtures and the release of it onto the road without a major bang, even skywards maybe. But if those cells or cylinders go, you really dont wanna be close, it makes an easygas looks like a firework.

[@joez.2794]

Hydrogen is the _lightest_ element, NOT the smallest. Helium is smallest by far, which is why it was never viable in airships despite being non-flammable (leaks through pretty much anything except a steel cylinder).

[@mzs114]

This just implies that FCV will wither away and BEVs will take over!

[@waichui2988]

Hydrogen car has the classic chicken and egg problem. If you do not have a lot of cars running on the street, nobody would invest in building the refueling stations. If you do not have a lot of refueling stations, nobody will buy the cars.

[@electrified0]

The fuel speed "advantage" has a lot of caveats to consider outside of the ideal scenario of a highway pit stop with all 3 choices. Even in the limited locations that have hydrogen stations, they are the least common ones to find by far. For electric vehicles that have the longest charge up time, many drivers can skip this fueling stop altogether by charging where they already park, or even at closer parking spots dedicated to charging in some locations. It's not uncommon for an EV driver to never visit a fast charger in multiple years of driving, and spend the least amount of time fueling as a result despite having the slowest fueling vehicle. Compared against gas and electric, hydrogen cars are the most expensive of the 3, lose the most cargo space to fuel storage, have the most expensive fuel cost per mile driven and have the fewest number of "fast fueling" stations. All these tradeoffs for the theoretical benefit of filling up faster than charging a battery, when someone charging up an EV at home is still getting a significantly better fueling experience.

[@fnorgen]

I can understand these governments and companies betting hard on hydrogen 15 years ago when conventional EVs were a bit shit. But battery tech has improved a lot, and hydrogen just hasn't. Every advantage hydrogen used to have has eroded away! Battery charging time isn't that much of a concern anymore, energy density is mostly adequate, cycle life is fine if you don't beat on them and prices are getting reasonable. They put their money on the wrong tech, and it's jut sad that they're still refusing to change course. Also, a hydrogen fuelled boiler is a disgusting concept! Regardless if you're burning green or grey hydrogen, you'd be much better off burning electricity or natural gas directly!

[@seseth9971]

What happened to the good old solar panel cars?

[@rtz549]

They were EV's in reality. The panels charged the batteries.

[@Zripas]

Aptera is the company making solar panel powered car, fyi its BEV.

[@jonasmanno1568]

"Hydrogen in a compressed form is highly flammable" You know what else is highly flammable? Gasoline.

[@108chapin]

Gasoline isn't compressed. Hydrogen is also flammable when it's not compressed. A hole in your gas can isn't safe but it's not a disaster like it would be with hydrogen

[@jonasmanno1568]

@@108chapin didnt know you were getting chased around town by the mob my bad

[@bobz1736]

You are far too biased towards BEVs... sales are dropping, second hand value have crashed, manufacturers are slowing down production. Yet again government subsidies have masked reality. 😢

[@marky2022]

Exciting time to come for Hydrogen, maybe later. Not sure if everyone can see it or not...

[@kb8570]

Hydrogen cars keeps the public distracted.

[@simeon8360]

EVs require significant cost reductions and better carbon footprints to become feasible. At the moment they are purchased by people who are excited about the technology and subsidised often by people who cannot afford these vehicles (via the government).

[@LearningFast]

EVs don’t take an hour to charge but Hydrogen cars often take an hour to fill up because of the line or broken filling stations.

[@jacobkyle4573]

While I get this is meant to be a joke, it's important to note that EVs only take less than an hour to charge at a 440v or above station, which most homes do not have the correct fuse design to install, and most public charges are level 2 chargers which are a 240v capacity. In short, if you don't own a Tesla and use the super charger network or have a unique home setup, even with a PHEV you will be waiting over an hour to fully charge.

[@LearningFast]

@@jacobkyle4573 it wasn’t a joke and you are wrong. It is extremely rare that you ever charge an EV from a low percentage to 100%. Most charging stops are 15 minutes or less. If you charge at home then charging speed is irrelevant because you just charge overnight while you are sleeping.

[@cyruslupercal9493]

EV cope. Charging fast degrades the battery 😂

[@FriedChairs]

@@cyruslupercal9493 Nope. People that only use Superchargers repeatedly report normal degradation. I’m active in Tesla forums where people report on stuff like this. Overcharging non LFP is what causes rapid degradation. That’s why people charge to 80% or less daily.

[@DeaconG1959]

If you cannot establish an infrastructure for fuel, it doesn't matter how damn good the tech is. Look at the dearth of charging stations for EV's now. Putting the cart before the horse does no one any favors. You're looking at 20+ years to get the infrastructure up and running, assuming someone will take the risk to finance it. Wishing don't make it so. Cash does.

[@_Stupid_Idiot]

i shared this to the Hydrogen Car Owners group on Facebook and they blocked me

[@GSimpsonOAM]

The truth hurts

[@ronthorn3]

@@GSimpsonOAMlol

[@wizzyno1566]

Both of them?

[@mickgatz214]

ahhhh, the Moderator Gods... 😂

[@evilsanta8585]

18 cents a mile isn’t bad considering my 2024 Lexus costs 23 cents a mile

[@greg_289]

Using hydrogen for cars is so dumb.

[@z50king29]

Each Toyota lot around here has 10 used Mirai on their lot. Hella cheap

[@motherslove686]

I feel no body has said anything against the car itself. The charging Infrastructure has issues. Infact, it is a very reliable and comfortable car.

[@kendalson7100]

The big energy companies have spent decades researching alternatives to oil and gas for cars. Because they are in the business of selling energy, they would take whatever alternative works and run with it. So far, nothing.

[@kaystephan2610]

Iirc hydrogen has to be either kept under MASSIVE pressure ORRRRR it needs to be cooled down to near absolute zero to liquify it. Since you can't really cool stuff down to 4 Kelvin in your car, pressure is the only option for you. And that pressure is around 700 Bar if I recall that correctly. 700 Bar is the pressure felt 7 Kilometers (roughly 4.4 miles) down into the ocean. An insane pressure that I would not want to be near to. ESPECIALLY during an accident. EVERYTHING about hydrogen cars is more dangerous, complicated and expensive. There's literally no upside whatsoever.

[@sparty94]

unless someone can figure out how to make green hydrogen for cheap it ain't gonna happen.

[@_Stupid_Idiot]

that would require electricity to be extremely cheap. if that was the case, then it would be almost free to charge a BEV

[@FriedChairs]

There’s always going to be a more efficient way to use the energy. Even a flywheel is more efficient energy storage.

[@laurentiusmichaelgeorge1118]

The long term effect of our worn out battery waste needs to be talked about every time we talk about hydrogen powered sources. It's probably the single biggest reason why we should consider hydrogen.

[@Onkar-i4s]

Because, Sunk cost fallacy.

[@mzs114]

Just think if they had invested this in the BEV tech, we are already at the cusp of going mainstream with Sodium Ion batteries!

[@Ashwin-zg7rt]

Its good companies investing in diversifying energy sources. Cost is a factor of scale so the cost will come down eventually. All these cost discussions will be swept away once fossil fuels are depleted

[@xeridea]

Hydrogen has been a pipedream for 20 years. Even ignoring cost, the inefficiency of conversion makes it a terrible way to power anything. Strange Toyota hasn't wanted to make BEVs, but keep wasting insane amounts of cash on this fairytale.

[@xcw4934]

I believe hydrogen might have a place to get aviation and large trucks to zero emissions but it just doesn't make sense for private passenger vehicles where the size and weight of the battery isn't as big of a problem as for large cargo trucks and planes. The mistake seems to be more trying to force private cars to go hydrogen rather than setting up a smaller number of hydrogen truck refuelling stations which would require fewer locations to become viable.

[@Brad_Fallon]

Hydrogen will be everywhere. Hydrogen is the future!

[@FriedChairs]

@@Brad_Fallon And yet evidence shows it’s failing and in decline.

[@bldontmatter5319]

​@@FriedChairsnot really. Just in America, a country that literally EVERYONE laughs at

[@oqlassic8799]

Is it to hard for you to citing the souces on the description?

[@ThisDaniel]

Hybrid is the way to go until they invent a water based engine or subsidize public transportation so people simply drive less.

[@xeridea]

I heard the government has this air cooled fiberglass engine, and it runs on water. WATER man! It's like a car, but instead of putting gas in the gastank you use water!

[@r46-b7e]

Isn't "green" hydrogen still emitting a lot of greenhouse gas also? Those wind mills don't build themselves. Nothing is really "green", yet.

[@Breakfast598]

Essentially, EVs are rich people toys bc theres not enough lithium for all people who own gas cars to transitiom to EV. Therefore, there needs to be a different solution for the average person if the green car problem is going to be pushed.

[@barebaric]

It's just wrong that there isn't enough lithium. Not only is there more than enough in total with recent discoveries included, but we have already reached oversupply as well. Which is why lithium prices already crashed.

[@Breakfast598]

@@barebaric I'm counting only the amount of Li that's economically available today, I'm aware there's more, but much of it is relatively inaccessible

[@bltzcstrnx]

@@Breakfast598 in early days of crude oil, a lot of reserves also "inaccessible." We've been told it going to run out any time soon, yet we found more and more reserves. Same is true for lithium deposits, along with other alternatives such as sodium.

[@FriedChairs]

You are just parroting incorrect talking points and your premise is wrong. There’s enough lithium now which is why battery prices are dropping rapidly so this “only for rich” idea is wrong especially since used EV prices are falling. There’s been a lot of investment from miners and they expect battery material costs to continue declining for the next decade at least and yes they are accounting for projected EV growth. You have to be really ignoring easily obtained evidence to be still using this talking point.

[@frumiousgaming]

I would get a hydrogen car if there was a hydrogen fuel station near me (and if they were a bit more affordable)

[@FriedChairs]

So you’re cool with paying $180 for a refill?

[@gabrielrousseau_NM]

@@FriedChairsI think you can get your own hydrogen station for around $10,000. But it would compress half as much as the main stations. Good enough for commutes.

[@chrisja1998]

Hydrogen in normal cars are so stupid. The only thing it could be used for are for ships, big trucks and planes. IF we achive fusion energy and have more or less free energy it could be feasible.

[@officialspock]

Hydrogen is the future..... of dumb ideas

[@therighteous802]

A perfect example of how a government can spend billions on the wrong thing and make the private sector to do the same. So you better vote for competent people.

[@GregConquest]

I don't know how anyone can make a video on hydrogen-powered cars, and Japan, without looking at pink, purple or red hydrogen and HTTR and HTGR reactors. If the Japanese plan to produce both hydrogen and mechanical/electrical power from HTGR reactors works out, then a hydrogen economy is not only possible, butt it beats event else, other than fusion.

[@thedeadbatterydepot]

I can make green hydrogen for free at your home, my hydrogen fueling station is slow, buy two for your garage, runs off batteries, can recharge batteries with solar, no electricity costs. Don't be fooled by poor sales, this is the future, Japan can't afford gas, it's too expensive. Invest in my green battery recycling business if you want to become a millionaire in less then 5 years from now.

[@rars0n]

BMW made a hydrogen version of their 12-cylinder 7-series called the Hydrogen 7. It ran on both regular gasoline and hydrogen stored in a liquid form in a tank behind the rear seats. Engineering Explained did a good job of discussing many of the technical challenges involved, like how the hydrogen has to be kept at -253C and will vent itself over time to cause the entire tank to drain in 10-12 days (can't park the car in a garage). The video is worth a watch: v=AouW9_jyZck

[@ddmark69]

If I had a hydrogen car, I would need to drive 3 hours to fuel up.

[@andrelockridge9109]

A hydrogen infrastructure is hugely prohibitive! Doesn't make any sense financially. Also long term reliability questions of the fuel cells in cars & trucks.

[@viewer7200]

H could be viable only as green H, gray H totally defeats the purpose of 'clean' fuel. It would the same as charging your EV from a gasoline generator. Why bother with a hydrogen produced by "methane generator", if you can fill up with a methane-converted gas car?

[@GetOffMyyLawn]

I think this is just Toyota saying "we will be green with hydrogen" while the go all in on hybrids and plug in hybrids. They know it is not time to go all electric.

[@TimwongTimwong]

Ev is the best option, once the solid state battery in place.

[@gtpete6363]

The board of Toyota should be fired NOW!

[@Guishan_Lingyou]

This is situation is a bit of a mystery to me. Toyota seems like such a practical company, but as far as I understand, hydrogen is never going to be a mainstream energy source unless there is some major technological breakthroughs.

[@jeffmorin5867]

There already has been several. One company developed a way to store, transport, and extract hydrogen in a completely inert stasis on a device that looks something like a tape deck using UV light. The DOD got involved and made them shelf it for the past decade at least. They want the parties already running the energy show to stay running the show. This "green movement" is nothing more than a farce.

[@skierpage]

Hydrogen is not an energy source, you have to make it.[*] if you make it from fossil fuels it has awful CO2 emissions if you make it by splitting water with renewable electricity, you could have skipped the inefficient detour through hydrogen and put the electricity straight into a BEV (or an electric appliance, or an efficient heat pump). There are no technology breakthroughs that are going to change physics. Existing industrial uses of hydrogen need to switch to green hydrogen, which will take gigawatts of electrolyzers and terawatts of renewable energy and take a decade, promoting dubious new uses for hydrogen is a cynical way for fossil fuel companies to sell more of the dirty stuff for years. [*] some excited mining companies claim they can find and mine deposits of hydrogen, but it's speculative and likely most reserves will be mixed with natural gas that we need to stop burning

[@Guishan_Lingyou]

@@skierpage Thank you for clarifying. Yes, basically, I don't understand why a company like Toyota, which has been making extremely solid, practical cars, and trucks for so long would pursue hydrogen vehicles given that it seems that you don't have to be an engineer to know its a bad idea.

[@jeffmorin5867]

@@skierpage keep regurgitating the same shit everybody is...

[@Tuppoo94]

​@@Guishan_Lingyou It's mainly the Japanese and South Korean governments that are pushing hydrogen vehicles by covering the losses they cause to Hyundai and Toyota. The reason is that the governments are trying to reduce their dependency on Chinese-controlled EV battery materials, which could give the Chinese government huge leverage against their smaller neighbors.

[@Itory1337]

The big oil companies continue to rely on this technology because they can use part of the infrastructure if necessary and then lead people back to the other product: "Oh, it's a shame that hydrogen is so expensive... but hey, take our gasoline, it's right next door, just buy a normal combustion engine. And they're cheaper too!". It's a shame that the e-car industry has grown so much. The plan hasn't really worked out yet :P The same applies to synthetic fuels - it's all a shame. In the end, only very rich people can afford to use those fuels.

[@skierpage]

It's worse than that. 95% of hydrogen today is made from fossil fuel companies' dirty product. Existing industrial uses of hydrogen need to switch to green hydrogen, which will take gigawatts of electrolyzers and terawatts of renewable energy and take a decade; promoting dubious new uses for hydrogen is a cynical way for fossil fuel companies to sell more of the dirty stuff for years. It's great that EVs are reducing pollution and emissions compared with an equivalent gasser, and people are buying more and more of them every year. Oil companies fear this, so they tell people to wait for hydrogen to solve all the alleged problems of EVs. But very few are buying this nonsense.

[@WMD4929]

Interesting. There used to be a bus route in London which mainly employed hydrogen buses. It was canned about five years ago and the explanation was that the route was deemed redundant (rather than cost).

[@aboutface102]

I keep coming back to 1 word, Hindenburg.

[@TuxPenguino]

Hydrogen is the future of sustainability. Energy on demand is not sustainable. Hydro can be stored and shipped.

[@FriedChairs]

Wrong. As an energy storage medium, batteries are and will remain superior.

[@Premier424]

comment section, 0 knoweldge about fossil fuels, 100% confidence on their conclusion

[@justinjones3326]

cant have hydrogen without fusion.... Livermore recently made progress but it still a ways off

[@compromisedssh]

This channel is dope and I'm a huge fan. This is a poor analysis though. I share the belief that hydrogen will not be the fuel of the future, but citing vehicle sales at this point (you know-- before the infrastructure is reliably in place) doesn't make a for a convincing this-product-line-is-a-flop case. It's all good though. I'll be waiting to slap that like button when the next WSM video drops.

[@ianchu8232]

I disagree. The world has slowed down in electrification through battery, proving Toyota right.

[@Chris.Davies]

You aren't even wrong. Do some research about how dangerous and stupid Hydrogen gas really is.

[@ianchu8232]

@@Chris.Davies I am pretty confident I did more research in this area than you.

[@Cap_management]

Toyota has below 1% market share in EVs in China. The biggest car market in the world. No, Toyota was not right. World is going EV and without Toyota.

[@turbo_brian]

Water is an emission. It's just not a polluting emission.

[@r46-b7e]

I feel like subsidy has become synonymous with "waste-of-money"