Want to know what the Judge said about the Post Office Witnesses? It wasn't pretty.

Sorry about the sniffles. I was being the guy who came in from the cold.
Gordon Exall's Rather Excellent Blog: www.civillitig...
#artoflaw #postofficescandal #witnesses #judgment #MrBates #horizonsystem
Disclaimer: Neither this nor any other video, may be taken as legal advice. I accept no liability whatever for any reliance placed upon it, as there is no contract between us and I am not instructed by you; and also no tort stuff either. Whatever they did in Hedley-Byrne v Heller to exclude liabilty, I'm do that too.
Founded by Alan Robertshaw and @Blackbeltbarrister
kzbin.info...

[@timduck8506]

Paula Vennels and other CEO's should be held to account and taken to court for fraud and Blackmail, Extortion and misleading the court system.

[@Thurgosh_OG]

As well as all of those 'witnesses' who lied in courts multiple times to cover it up.

[@gdj6298]

And (and I respect our system of law, so thank heaven this is just fantasy) on the same basis as they used for the Postmasters - guilty until proven innocent. Betcha there would be less 'I don't know / don't recall / wasn't aware' then.....

[@Jan-sn5tk]

Did they pervert the course of justice?

[@timduck8506]

@@Jan-sn5tk Yes on all accounts, as they knew they were in the wrong and did not disclose the fact plus they actively carried on telling lie's to mislead the courts.

[@cassandratq9301]

Yes, yes they did.

[@NualaAhern-d5g]

She perjured herself in giving evidence that there was no internal knowledge of problems with horizon. She should be imprisoned for perjury

[@icouldbewrongicouldberight]

A computer system of that size near-inevitably has issues. The "joke" is that they're not Bugs, but Features. Something's only a problem if you're not content with the way things are (go figure)

[@andydudley1775]

it be worth adding up all the time served by victims times it by 3 and hand out time the the real criminals who made a proffit to cover this up with honers and rewards .refuse the proper representation to defend them self to if they apeal.

[@tomricketts7821]

The establishment always protect its self the Conservative Party was originally formed to do just that and has continued to hold this as its core value ever since sadly for them their venality and corruption of recent years has become so blatant or perhaps the non establishment are no longer prepared to tolerate their arrogant entitled behsviour

[@david672orford]

From the descriptions of the multiple ways it could fail to record transactions correctly, it didn't just have a few bugs. The phrase "not fit for purpose" comes to mind.

[@alansharman3644]

@@icouldbewrongicouldberight all computet systems are not infalable unless the humans writing the code required are total gods unable to be wrong which we know is an absolute impossibilty

[@JohnNaylor-x4x]

why are these people not in jail? jeffer archer was jailed for 4 years for pugery and perverting the course of justice, but these people seem to be given massive bonuses, getting away scot free for their crimes, and ruined so many peoples lives,

[@davekeith576]

It's called fraud , milking , Deception .

[@steveharmon6440]

Jeffery Archer was also the victim of a stitch up. He wasn't prosecuted for perjury per say, but because he embarrassed the establishment and 5 eyes Intel community. THAT offence is unforgivable. The perjury charge was a deliberate form of entrapment. Damned if you do... damned if you don't.

[@davidspear9790]

It sounds like these witnesses were small fish that were viewed as cannon fodder. They need to look much higher up to find out who the real perpetrators of the scam were.

[@amandamcauley]

Also Jonathan Aitken.

[@clungebucket23]

I just bemoaning the fact that the establishment NEVER punish their own kind. Then I vaguely remembered Jeffrey Archer... One very rare occasion... The system is rigged against us and that this scandal is just one illustration of how corrupt and immoral this country is at levels where they should be leading by example... To go further, the higher up the power structures you go, the greater the penalty for fraud, perjury, disception and corruption.

[@formicapple2]

Thank you for this easy to digest for a layman post. My confidence in the Judiciary has been restored somewhat. What an eloquent way of saying the Post Office management and witnesses are a bunch of liars and criminals.

[@TheReverendJones-lv5bz]

May I respectfully suggest that you give your head a wobble, if you are that easily appeased, The people who were prosecuted due to the Post Office being able to take out private prosecution’s, a 2 tier justice system that favours the wealthy!

[@Sonya_Makepeace]

It's just words. Nothing will be done about them. It's all theatre to make you think the judiciary are on your side.

[@Demun1649]

@@Sonya_Makepeace The evidence? And your crystal ball doesn't count.

[@Sonya_Makepeace]

@@Demun1649 We'll have to wait and see then, won't we?

[@alisonwilson9749]

@@Sonya_Makepeace I don't think judges like perjury. It's a total 'f-you' to the entire judicial system, including its judges. Observation suggests to me that in the UK, judges take it much more seriously than other places- like the US, for example. Look at the Aitkin case.

[@shhhhhh62]

I do hope that these Post Office officials will find themselves in the dock on criminal charges because there can be no doubt that their actions were criminal and with intent.

[@TheReverendJones-lv5bz]

It should, but I doubt very much if any get prosecuted, I can see 1 or 2 people being sacrificial lambs to appease the peasants, one thing I can guarantee is that they will lot’s of platitudes hand wringing, pearl clutching and lessons will be learned 😀

[@jimbabwe3246]

Government are terrified of prosecuting board members, they let the investment banks slide in 2008. Twas them that crippled the planet with their shady deals. That's how we got food banks and very low interest rates for a while.

[@simonburling3762]

What happened to perjury charges?

[@ianlister6554]

And they also profited personally from their action. That money should be paid back with interest to the State and then on to those so grievously wronged.

[@johndublyoo2553]

I don't want to see them in the dock, I want to see them in prison

[@sandraneale128]

Sounds like a stitch- up! As Lady C says, a new trial with retired judges needs to be called. People must take responsibility, regardless of who they are. Thank you for putting the legal jargon into normal understanding!

[@andydudley1775]

700 infalible judges just not noticing what they are paid for how did that happen on repeat.

[@pilkipilki4472]

do not forget the shop workers that got sacked by sub postmasters accused of theft

[@robburrows2737]

Yes. They haven't been given recognition. The inquiry examining Steve Bradshaw today showed how he interrogated a16 year old girl who was falsely convicted.

[@hildatrellis907]

The mendacity of those witnesses was breathtaking. I sincerely hope that there will be consequences. On a side note, one wonders whether Ms. Venall’s second job as a Church of England vicar is tenable. Her diocese is backing her but the average person in the pew might feel differently.

[@alisonwilson9749]

I'd not like to be the treasurer in any parish she was priest.

[@MrVorpalsword]

but in a sense all priests are liars aren't they?

[@digbycrankshaft7572]

Many vicars have done far worse than merely lie.

[@Jan-sn5tk]

Vennells obviously does not practice what she preaches in church : Thou shalt not bear FALSE WITNESS (lies)

[@stewarth99]

Why is Fujita not being taken to court under the Sale of Goods Act? The accounting package was clearly not fit for purpose.

[@kass9722]

probably there is a clause in the contract they signed

[@angr3819]

I read that Fujitsu warned the then Royal Mail that more than one terminal together would not work properly. If true, those responsible will use Fujitsu as a scapegoat anyway if they can.

[@Woodman-Spare-that-tree]

I believe that is for domestic consumers, not businesses.

[@icouldbewrongicouldberight]

​@@Woodman-Spare-that-tree"The Sale of Goods Act 1979 is an Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom which regulated English contract law and UK commercial law in respect of goods that are sold and bought." Hth

[@jeremybarker7577]

@@Woodman-Spare-that-tree Much of it applies to businesses but for a multi-million pound contract like ICL (as it then was) had to supply Horizon everything is written down - which is why the entire contract document is over 900 pages long.

[@tonib5899]

Fraud, perjury and obstruction of the law are just for starters. When it was suspected it was postmasters at fault, it was prison. Then when it’s suspected of the bosses, it’s let’s not rush to judgment. Always the same.

[@nigellaw2990]

Many thanks for giving us understandable and accurate reporting on all this. We usually called the Post Office help facility the Hell Line which says it all really.

[@angr3819]

I never believed it from the first brief MSM report on the TV news, when the public didn't know the extent. Also did not know that it would be allowed to continue to affect so many more. That was many years ago. Perhaps going on for two decades. It simply didn't stand to reason. So many even then. I bet the nasty piece of work who spat in the man's face won't think to go and do the same to any of the real culprits. She would know she would be arrested for their sake. Do you think that a former head of the Criminal Cases Review Commission was on TV yesterday, looking very angry indeed. He stated that new legislation should only be enacted when all other avenues have been exhausted and that hasn't happened. He went on to explain that the CRCC and the highest court could have concluded the matter within only a few months. I suspect the misgovernment illegally enacted new legislation (it was illegal as it breached law by previous legislation and traditional law from previous legislations), in order to have control over the amount of compensation paid? Also to have control of any Public Inquiry and the outcome? Of course, I am surmising it could have been referred to the CRCC a long time ago as well as very recently, and for whatever reason wasn't. Of if wasn't, I wonder why not? Who decided it shouldn't be? Apart from this, we all know by now that they the relatives of those in uppermost control (bankers, their royal relatives and politician family members etc) tell their lesser relatives now quite long placed in all MSM (and now much social media) what to allow and not allow their news agencies to be bring to the attention of the public. They only ever allow scandals where their own are culprits are the criminals to be exposed when they have a strong enough reason. Such as to distract from other heinous behaviour they are currently up to. It was on ceefax yesterday that the misgovernment mobsters have "postponed" the Inquiry into the witches brew itself until after the next general election. Of course we know there will be a change of guard again, and who knows if it will then ever be investigated to any extent? Or if it is, then by whom? Also in the news. Sunak and his mobsters are giving Gibraltar to Spain. This will mean that people from Africa will be able to sail through the Strait of Gibraltar, unhindered, because Spain certainly won't stop them on our behalf. Apart from even more illegal migrants, there will be a sharp increase in people trafficking to and fro. Including and perhaps especially of children. I am glad that you and other victims have received some sort of resolution at last, if you are all happy with it. Even if it isn't what it should and could have been through the CCRC. If all victims are content to settle for what has been done in such a hurry after such a very long length of time, then it is for all of you to judge whether you are willing to accept what had been done. I truly hope that you all go on to have far better lives in the future. I do wonder about the loved ones of those who tragically ended their own lives, as well as those who have passed away before this. Not only their legal relatives but anyone they were co-habitating with lung term, especially if they had children or long term but not adopted Stephen children. I suspect they won't have a fair portion awarded as part of the estate of the deceased. Where distraction from other heinous behaviour is concerned, there is too much even recently for me to list. Some of it wouldn't be allowed mention on yt anyway. The fact that MSM are still giving so much time and attention to the matter, now seemingly 'settled', is proof it is being misused to distract the public, Imo. MSM could and should have moved on to cover the "postponement" of the Inquiry into the various toxic darts, Gibraltar and more. They could always have returned to reporting on the Royal Mail/post office scandal over time. I expect MSM will drop coverage like a ton of bricks when there isn't anything immediate that they don't want the public to notice. Remember that they are all at least in the funny handshake club, and are sworn to protect each other right or wrong (even when they do very occasionally sacrifice those of lower degrees). We must always try and discover the track records and usual decisions of those involved, to see if they are likely to be genuinely for truth and justice or if it is more subterfuge. Best wishes for you and yours.

[@dianeirvine7624]

I see it as a question of weeding out the guilty and using the full force of the law against them . But who is prepared to take that risk ?

[@finneogan]

While it is understandable to some degree that judges are overly careful with their words for the reasons you give, this becomes part of the problem when, as has been happening these last few years, egregious liars spout egregious lies and are neither called out nor chastised nor - what actually should happen - accused of and tried for 1. contempt of court and 2. perjury. To lie at court has basically become accepted, which has long since undermined justice. A witness who is more or less a civil servant caught demonstrably lying in a case such as this in a way such as this, should get an immediate fine and ultimately serve prison time.

[@stevecarter8810]

That's the role of the DPP. Judge stays squeaky clean so that it doesn't become a defense to say the judge was biased. They stay stronger this way. They refer stuff to the DPP, who decides what should be a charge. In this case I'd be checking who at the post office has lunch with whom from the DPP though

[@Zantorc]

Someone (possibly more than one) needs to be charged with perjury.

[@robburrows2737]

Watching the enquiry with Steve Bradshaw the ex TV licence goon promoted to hound and scapegoat the PO postmasters suggests that he has better get used to slopping out.

[@TesterAnimal1]

I cannot parse that stream of letters.

[@icouldbewrongicouldberight]

​​@@TesterAnimal1"Post Office investigator [Steve Bradshaw] 'who behaved like a Mafia gangster' was accused of 'disgusting behaviour' and having an 'unbearable attitude' as he interviewed sub-postmasters over claims of theft, Horizon scandal inquiry hears" Is OP saying that prior to that role he was a TV Licence inspector 🤷

[@maryl2529]

Thank you for your videos, they are always so informative and entertaining ❤

[@adecrowshaw7235]

Wow. The more I learn about this subject the more I am sickened. I'm struggling to understand why the Post Office were pursuing Sub Postmasters for money they knew very well hadn't been stolen. What benefit did they get from destroying so many people's lives? I mean playing devil's advocate I can see a manager following this route once but seeing the effect it had on the defendant refusing to carry on, again and again. What's your gut feeling, do you think there will be charges brought against individuals in the Post Office?

[@amandamcauley]

We, The People need to keep up the pressure.

[@adecrowshaw7235]

@@amandamcauley I agree Amanda. In my opinion aside from perjury there are criminal charges to answer. I see the establishment closing ranks though. The rot goes very deep.

[@parshakamarsh]

They were getting paid bonuses based on successful prosecutions

[@adecrowshaw7235]

@@parshakamarsh Really? Wow.

[@andrewgilbertson5356]

This is a very good explanation of what happened.

[@cloudsingh3147]

Strong strong words from the Judge. Hurrah! To me the P.O. is using a 'Boris' style of presentation. Seen more and more these days. Thank you for this vid. 😊

[@disdroid]

It was starmer who covered up.for the post office as DPP - not to mention savile and the Rotherham rings! Yet Boris ate birthday cake that he never ate so he had to go! We're not stupid...

[@billwinward9324]

I’ve said it before and I will no doubt say it again, why do legal proceedings have to wait for the interminable inquiry to finish? People lied under oath, the evidence is already there, they should be done for perjury.

[@EWAScotland]

I do not believe for one second that the senior managers and board will face any charges…they might throw a few investigators to the wolves (deservedly), but the people who really caused this will get away with it. Look at every other ‘independent’ enquiry ever and nothing happens. The establishment ALWAYS looks after its own. Take it as read that crusty old established peers and their like will already consider that Vennels losing her CBE is punishment enough. What price a similar TV licence scandal will be next!

[@lufe8773]

Nothing will change unless (guilty) individuals in corporations are held to account. Fining or punishing entities does little to prevent further miscarriages of justice if there is no punishment for those who knowingly cause harm to the public.

[@bristolfashion4421]

The verbatim quotes are helpful to hear, albeit depressing. We should recall that substantial financial incentives were offered to PO management for each court case that resulted in the postmaster being found guilty…

[@lesmaybury793]

Utter contempt of court. The "witnesses" who exhibited this charactoristic need to answer for it.

[@fredfish4316]

Some of the judges seem to have been savy....but far too many disgraced the judiciary and brought the entire legal justice system into disrepute.

[@JelMain]

Not respecting the Truth, the Whole Truth, and Nothing But the Truth as sworn is Contempt of Court. Why is perjury not commonplace?

[@victorsauvage1890]

Bravo! The public is indebted to you.

[@lloydlovell8431]

Now it's their time to fear going to jail only different is their guilty

[@pcka12]

It must be the case that the legal establishment is guilty of condemning some 900 people who are innocent!

[@hannojaanniidas9655]

Beyond interesting Maître Robertshaw ! I very much respect and enjoy the British sense of legal discretion in such matters. Plain speaking whilst very much to the point and granting the perjuror a moducum of self-respect in the process. Truly elegant use of language.

[@EWAScotland]

Not one of these PO crims will face charges; the establishment cannot let such a precedent be set. This will be kicked into the very long grass.

[@pedtrog6443]

Looking on from the other side of the World, this whole Post Office saga thing is simply jaw dropping

[@corkooter2559]

All the so-called deficits that the Fujitsu system invented, and that innocent employees had to pay, were used to pay out the bonuses, with which the top management enriched themselves. If they have any integrity at all, they pay out all those bonuses to their victims.

[@alantheinquirer7658]

Perhaps you should put your wig on when speaking as the judge. 😉 Seriously, if you see even the courts doubting the actions of the Post Office then you know there was an immense amount of dishonesty and bad-faith dealing going on!

[@coachhousechambers2047]

I should have got Lord Luvaduck and Capybarrister to do it!

[@alantheinquirer7658]

@@coachhousechambers2047 😄

[@wgj4813]

There is a pattern of disasters over which the government has some responsibility. I can just remember thodomide every disaster enquiry has a minimum of 10 years investigation costing millions every time. The poor sufferers just wait in pain whilst millions are spent on layers and others and enormous amounts of government time and beaurocracy. The Post Office and the covid inquiry are but recent examples and it all achieves nothing but victim long term pain and huge expenditure. Surely there is a better way because it certainly does not save taxpayers cash.

[@Raymond-w5i]

I pray that justice is done 🙏

[@nbandpinportugal]

If I had been the judge my language would have been a tad stronger regarding these truth bending W⚓s.

[@ChrisM541]

Good that the judiciary is doing this and being more self-aware, but a bit late! - more important than this, we need a look into the way the judicial system rubber stamped all those convictions...while DELIBERATELY ignoring the massive red flags !!!

[@KevinKitching-ws8jk]

Good stuff, thanks for this. A further eye opener in the murky corporate world

[@mileshefau]

I have made the only choice of downing Micardis Plus and beta blockers before watching you Post Office stories. Now that I am safe, please keep the coming. I am "vaguely interested" in your vaguely useful coverage. All brilliant Mr Robertshaw. #vaguelyinteresting

[@phillippotter6139]

How could this monstrosity of a scandal be avoided? What steps should of been followed ?

[@terryhg7785]

I don't know if this point has been raised anywhere but a number of Post Office branches are contained within stores such as W.H. Smith. That was the case here in Royal Wootton Bassett until recently. I assume they were on the Horizon system too and would have encountered the same problems. Did the Post Office prosecute or even investigate any of them or did they just go after the little man?

[@meowmeow7347]

How legal is:- ‘Post Office investigator said today that he signed a court statement which had been written by solicitors and not him’! ??

[@alistairangus7216]

All very good, but what about the judges who sent the poor sub-postmasters to prison and/or awarded horrendous costs against them. They are complicit, they did not “Judge” fairly, they did nothing about miscarriages of justice which they must have seen in front of them. Get them in front of the inquiry!!

[@julieyates405]

Now let's hope this approach to looking for the facts within expert testimony starts to put things right for the wrongly accused. They deserve to see the Justice System working properly and not being manipulated by the unscrupulous. With luck it will start a new trend of fact checking the 'evidence' and prosecuting only when appropriate. On a different 'front' I can't wait for truth and justice to be given a chance to clear the names of some NHS employees, also potentially victims of serious miscarriage of justice.

[@alansharman3644]

What i want to know is if the fujitsu team could adjust figures behind the scenes is it possible that any of them could have moved so called missing money to a private bank account unnoticed and if so this means that no spm's can be convicted without a shadow of doubt. Just a thought.

[@frankbrodie5168]

Wow... We are definitely in the earrly throes of seeing a dramatic legal circus in the UK akin to some of those we could only ever point and laugh at in the US over the years. It would seem that there's going to be some people doing chokey. Which is I suspect why Paula Vennels has got her retaliation in first and handed back her CBE. To show remorse from the outset when she's finally in the dock.

[@valrodgers8889]

Watching thus very late, please tell me Stephen Bradshaw is on the list for investigation. Re-watching his 2024 testimony and finding I can only do it in bits🇬🇸

[@ianwestwick4381]

What is the chance that any of the civil servants involveded being charged with malfeasance within a public office?

[@misfit2022]

It’s good that this has become a hot topic but I listened to a podcast about this four years ago and file on four covered it around the same time so the surprise for me is that it has taken so long.

[@Woodman-Spare-that-tree]

Panorama covered it in a documentary 10 years ago

[@misfit2022]

@Moth I remember people talking about a Panorama episode on YT in 2022 but I don’t have a TV licence so I didn’t see it but didn’t realise it was being reported on in 2014. I definitely hadn’t heard about it then.

[@aaugoaa]

What about the judges who did confict 100's of postmasters.

[@dawngibson2640]

If you want corruption. Ask the corrupted. And money is always there at the forefront.

[@hillaryclinton1314]

I want to know why the post feels that 150MM pounds on legal costs .. so far .. was better than dropping all resistance and doing the right thing?

[@therealuglytruth9288]

There must be a question about the competence of the judges that found theses people guilty in the first place?

[@robsengahay5614]

Listening to this and following the enquiry has been shocking. The Post Office has acted with total impunity for decades in a manner that would be more reminiscent of an organisation such as the KGB. Their primary goal seemed to be to protect the ‘integrity’ of the organisation at any and all costs. If that meant absolutely destroying the lives of thousands of innocent people to the extent where they committed suicide and lying to the courts and Parliament then they clearly felt this was wholly justified. Now that it has been recognised that the Post Office was rotten to the core and has no reputation to protect they are individually pleading amnesia to any events, emails etc that exposed their crimes. I come at this with some background both as a former investigator for the Inland Revenue (where I understand the subtle pressures applied to getting ‘results’ and why this needs to be resisted (but in my experience wasn’t always done - albeit I know of no examples where it led to prosecution as the Inland Revenue clearly carried out fewer prosecutions of tax evaders than the Post Office did of sub-postmasters). I also worked for a software company as a liaison between the corporate clients and our support teams. Nobody in such a role would ever have any confidence in any software application. If a client told me something untoward was afoot when performing a function it was equally likely to be software related as user error.

[@jezedwards3858]

Very good, you could understand understand if some of the Post Office witnesses forgot certain details but, every single one of them plays that trick your judge mentioned, of feigning a lack of understanding or knowledge of anything which could go against the PO. Even the former post office manager Mrs Cottam, ok it was a long time ago but she kept emphasising the idea that she had never seen her statement…didn’t know the significance of a written statement…didn’t remember saying there were problems with Horizon etc but, the fact is her signature contributed to that lady going to prison…! And even now she can’t find it in herself to say it was wrong. They are all using the same tactic as the top lawyer - Jarnail Singh. This is no coincidence.

[@occamraiser]

If a judge genuinely thinks someone has lied under oath why aren't the public prosecutors charging them with perjury?

[@TheSadButMadLad]

Takes time. The last sentence in the video mentions that the judge passed on details to the DPP

[@blackislepeastoo]

Allegedly -The husband of the current Westminster Education Sectary (Gillian Keegan) was the former CEO of Fujitsu. Fujistsu is a central partner of Infosys, which is owned by Rishi Sunak's father in law. Thoughts ?

[@DJDJ-fl2nv]

Let’s not forget that the same judiciary sent many to prison and destroyed lives...it was only when the issue became public that it was shamed into trying to row back on past trials .... yet any judge sentencing looks first at similar cases and outcomes and sentencing to inform their judgement...they knew or should have known about the high volume of similar cases...they seem to have been content to look the other way...one would have to ask why ? This is where any review should start .... a review of judicial function and fitness to dispense justice....

[@colinmoore7460]

Post Office seems to be running the Trump trial playbook, without attacking the judge.

[@christopherabbott7912]

To much bla,Bla,Bla the public wants many people to be held responsible for their actions from top to bottom of the post office.

[@MrBollocks10]

Who pays? I'm guessing we do. 🥵 Am I wrong? BBB says £100 million is an insult. Does that include legal costs? It seems to me, they always make the most.😢 How much is this going to cost to put right? And who pays? The taxpayer?

[@Simon-im2zn]

Understanding that some SPM's went in with a plea of not guilty in court, not sure if all those not guilty pleas were successful mind? But one Lady (SPM) in particular did win her case and on that verdict will not be eligible for compensation! Yet despite winning her case they still basically lost their livelihood.

[@roncouch]

Seems like a clear case of shameless and calculated obfuscation by the Post Office to me!

[@Rapid_GT]

Do you know why there's been an ongoing public inquiry into what went on in addition to court cases and what bearing or clowt does the inquiry have on anymore prosecutions ??

[@itsonlyme9938]

I wonder how they manage Post Office saving accounts ? if there is such this as.

[@shaunsheppard]

We need some creativity from the DPP here. I suspect that it will be complex to prove false accounting, fraud and malicious prosecution for PO managers and execs, but charges of perjury and perverting the course of justice should be brought against each and every one of them.

[@nickjung7394]

Wasn't Starmer involved?

[@Normanskie]

Who should they sue, well never sue a man of straw unless you want to feed a donkey. What contract did they have with Horizon, none, but they did have a contract with the Post Office, however ths Post Office had a contract with Horizon so if they run short of paying out then they can sue Horizon.

[@jneill]

The judge, in legal language, have you all lost your d**n minds? This kind of judicial understated language is found in other court systems also (I can only speak of the one I know intimately). One can read a judgement and then go oh my, the court is EXCEPTIONALLY pissed off even though it doesn't read that way unless one knows some of the ins and outs. If the subject matter wasn't so serious, I'd say that this was hilarious but not anywhere near funny hearing how the judge phrased the have you lost all your marbles or what? . I hope all the post masters and mistresses are given proper compensation, a formal apology, and whatever else they need. And toss everyone who lies, covered up, destroying lives, have their own day in court and put through what they knwingly put others through.

[@crazyt1483]

I feel that those who definitely misslead sub postmasters should have 50% of their pre tax income over the national living wage taken to pay the current living sub-postmasters compensation followed by compensation to the next of kin of those who are no longer with us, (the only reason I say pre tax was so that there’s more to go around and I saw the 50% as a fair compromise that keeps the brass wanting to earn more and pay more)

[@danielboone8435]

You guys collectively voted to leave the European Union, I'm sure you could do something about the powdered wigs....

[@carolleenkelmann3829]

"A P.R. Prism" as compared with a P.R."Prison" which amounts to the same thing.

[@brenda1378]

Others may well be covering this, But can I trust their bias? We need you to cover this.

[@simon22273Z]

That Beanie on a cocked to side head is "Entertaining " 😅😅😅... I hsd to read script

[@ninjabluewings]

I get your inference in the beginning 😜

[@alansimmons9621]

I've only reached 3 minutes, so maybe you address this later on, however your positive appraisal of judges and the court in general is at odds with how the sub postmasters were treated before the tables turned. There are allegations of a racial bias against Asian defendants and surely the courts should have been aware of information in the public domain which undermined the post offices prosecution in regard to horizon? I hold the British legal system in complete contempt over this scandal

[@sexmachine-oh8lb]

GET YOUR OWN JUSTICE.

[@tack-on-titan]

How can anyone stand in court and twist things to try to convict innocent people, knowing full well that they are ruining the lives of those people and their families? They should all be brought to justice.

[@davidspear9790]

Because, like it or not, it's what prosecution and defence barristers get paid to do. They are devoid of emotions or feelings of guilt.

[@icouldbewrongicouldberight]

This sort of psychopathy is evident in civil cases also. And at the HMRC, wrongly and viciously targeting taxpayers. And plenty other govt departments, including the DWP which has no less than killed off thousands (by their own stats)

[@tack-on-titan]

@@davidspear9790 I know - I meant the witnesses on the PO side.

[@susanclifford5077]

They have to protect their own pensions.

[@m12652]

That’s the public sector for you… entitled morons that think we need them lol

[@lobbyskids2]

The post office are in a state of damage control. They will portray their actions over the entire horizon affair as “failings”. I do not like this terminology. Anyone can fail at something and failure doesn’t imply malice when it is now obvious they deliberately and maliciously went after the sub postmasters whilst knowing they were innocent.

[@rockflowerful]

Thank you ……..is it not these very details that will undo the criminality? Thanks for shining a light on them.

[@DeliciousPigeonCheez]

It worries me more that they know holding their hands up and apologising in the first instance that they made a big mistake might have been a better PR move so the fact they're not doing that leads to more speculation about what else they could possibly be hiding (and I know speculation isn't particularly helpful). I really hope those who were affected by the whole affair will be properly compensated to find themselves in a position of financial stability, have their convictions quashed if applicable, and get some form of justice.

[@cnursery]

The whole country is in a state of damage control - or rather it soon will be, when it begins to dawn what is actually happening.

[@hotpotato4027]

Have they said ‘lessons will be learnt' yet…haha that’s the usual we'll just be drawing a line under this situation comment.

[@grahamestrathern7924]

​@@hotpotato4027 You missed out, "We have taken it onboard"

[@martyndawson7484]

My biggest fear about this is that those Post Office employees, Civil Service, Ministers who perjured themselves, withheld evidence and blackmailed Postmasters into paying money they never stole will face no legal consequences.

[@OrcusMaximus]

Handing back the CBE is a start, but needs to go further.

[@michaelmcginley7930]

As a betting man its odds on they wont.from anevidential point of view no chance.the evidence being piper atlpha the high rise fire many others😊

[@raybo64]

All the Post Office officials who provided inaccurate or misleading evidence should be jailed for perjury. They swore that the evidence they would provide would be THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH and NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH.

[@melvynkersley-nc8fx]

Compensation aside! That’s my fear! These ar*holes will get away with it and not get their just deserts!!🤬!

[@tomricketts7821]

Why would they face consequences there is and has been for a long time a pandemic of entitlement and greed with no consequences for the elites of the world as welll as a culture of lying and cover up

[@jamesjeffries8281]

I'm compelled to listen to all the details of this case but always end up shaking with anger, how must have the victims felt and feel throughout all of this!

[@bugsy742]

Same buddy- it’s bloody heartbreaking 😢👍🤝

[@hockysa]

I feel you. It’s infuriating and heartbreaking. Makes you lose faith in humanity.

[@andydudley1775]

how many more inacent people who been lied to served time due to information burried by either the police or a major corperation or a fat tory mp.

[@Kevin-lf4xx]

The managers who hounded innocent people need to be brought before the courts .

[@Tonyr2]

Yep agree. Did you hear the lead 'investigater' giving evidence at the inquiry yesterday? Blaming all other parties, not a shred of remorse and giving a new low to incompetence. He signed off as the disclosure officer without supplying the documents and then blamed the solicitors for that failing.

[@alisonwilson9749]

aye, and claimed to be working to Pace rules, but where are the recordings, then?

[@californiadreamin8423]

That people are prepared to give false witness in a Court of Law , on behalf of their employer, shocking though it appears, is no different to their willingness to sell their soul and give false witness for personal advancement in their daily life.

[@wallacewhybrow2705]

Perjury is perjury, for whatever spurious reason, why were these witnesses not arrested and charged?

[@californiadreamin8423]

@@wallacewhybrow2705 The judge sent the file to the DPP . No doubt we will find out in due time , slow slow quick quick slow.

[@Nuts-Bolts]

It’s a wonder that Bill Gates didn’t buy the Post Office for his son who said he wanted a ‘real cowboy outfit’ for Christmas.

[@angr3819]

Except that Bully Gates is a she. She and Melinda are members of the baphomet mimic brigade.

[@truthstumbled4d1]

he already owns it when his daddy got him a 'real cowboy outfit' for his birthday

[@ianlaw6410]

Thank God we still have straight, honest, intelligent and impartial Judges of this calibre. Thanks to yourself and Dan for highlighting this. It gives me hope that liars and post-truth flunkies will always be caught out and brought to book in this country.

[@wallacewhybrow2705]

These judges were obviously aware that these witnesses were commuting Perjury. In which case, why were they not arrested and charged?

[@alisonwilson9749]

@@wallacewhybrow2705 A judge can't arrest people. A judge can only suggest the police/CPS look at a case, and it seems they have done so. It's up to them now. Personally I hope they get every single person who lied under oath in this entire affair since what- 1999?- in court and charged with perjury. Every last one. Even the integrity of the judicial system itself surely demands that, and the sufferings of the postmasters certainly does. And anyone convicted ought to get a sentence that fits the harm they caused- given that in some cases the result of the lies was putting someone in jail, then jail it should be.

[@bwghall1]

@@alisonwilson9749 Yes they must MUST be jailed 10 years. for twisting and lying in court and body langwidge to match. they thought nothing of destroying whole family's with their silly ways. JAIL>>!!!

[@m12652]

I think not… weeks before the first lockdown figure published the the legal system showed the highest number of arrests for serious crimes in decades and at the same time, the lowest number of prosecutions. Courts prosecute in direct relation to the current governments political agenda. It’s either that or the police are incompetent… given the facts it could be either or both

[@m12652]

The judges are as much at fault as the post office. Clearly not one even considered questioning the evidence. The only people who did anything useful were Mr Bates and friends, and Channel 4. Judges are so corrupt in this country it’s a joke. Just before the first lockdown the police reported the highest number of arrests for serious crimes in decades, the courts reported the least number of prosecutions. This country is dead in the water

[@georgegalyer8224]

Regardless of position. Being a politician. Head of the Post Office whoever? The usual leaving, retiring before any charges are brought about. Thus just walking away from it all with the big pensions etc has to stop! Doing this kind of thing in any situation is wrong. But apart from the Debt. Criminal Record. Evictions and years of mental health issues caused by this scandal. Innocent people were killing themselves. People involved in this must be held accountable with the full force of the law thrown at them like anyone else would be treated!!

[@kass9722]

it will not stop! it cannot stop.....why? that would mean that the whole system would have to stop. hence what we have here is just a dog & pony show for the "outraged from tumbridge wells" crowd. sure, they will go after one or two....the majority will face nothing. its no coincidence in the usa there is another "big show" going on ( more than one in their case )

[@hotpotato4027]

I agree…the behaviour you mention has been the case too many times and for to long.

[@stephenmason5682]

The Judge is cleary critical of these witnesses, citing dishonesty and lies! BUT, what will happen to them? Sod all!

[@Blitterbug]

Not so fast! The DPP is looking into this and I'm sure you've heard that two "people" have already been interviewed under caution.

[@stephenmason5682]

@@Blitterbug like Starmer and Jimm Saville?

[@steve81nz39]

@@Blitterbug thats nice but nothings going to happen to them

[@grumpyoldgit8254]

@@Blitterbug The DPP You mean the Position that Kier Starmer held between 2008 and 2013, something else he oversaw and nothing got done,haha, don't hold your breath

[@angr3819]

I suspect most the public would happy to see them found guilty of Treason and given the same sentence as William Wallis. In fact, I think a lot of people would want to attend and watch, to be certain it was the true criminals. Including B. Liar (maybe with "Dr David Kelly" and "illegal invasions for the US" whispered in his ear as he is set up with the horses). Some of us would happily buy front row tickets.

[@Slartyfartblarst]

Quite horrifying. Little wonder that SPOMs pleaded guilty, despite having done nothing wrong, when they found themselves in the frame, with no escape.

[@GWills-ys6rd]

I agree, but this is the gravest of crimes by falsely accusing innocent citizens. Lives have been lost and destroyed. True Justice needs to be served without prejudice to those who are proven to be complicit.

[@MrBollocks10]

It's just a small glimpse of our Justice system.😱 They were scared to run a trial. It's not uncommon amongst normal working folk. We all know that conviction depends on how Hot Shot your lawyer is!🙄 Mr Loophole was the Stars go to man. ...is that Justice? It's clearly not Justice for all.🥴 All animals are equal !! but some animals are more equal than others?

[@angr3819]

A pardon isn't overturning wrongful convictions nor negating false admissions made under extreme duress.

[@patrickporter1864]

A pardon says you were convicted of a crime but we are freeing you. Not that you are not guilty.

[@marybusch6182]

@@patrickporter1864 Exactly, that is useless in restoring credibility and responsibility.. and reputation..

[@McSynth]

Thank you for this. ALL Post Office senior management must now be held to be criminally accountable - along with the politician chap who's clutching his 'K'' so determinedly.

[@simoncroft9792]

These guys have no problem with lying to judges. They definitely have no problem lying to politicians trying to investigate this over the years. Just watch some of the parliamentary select committees.

[@gobi3222]

Ed Davey who was consistently lied to by the Post Office, who like all Post Office Ministers in post during this scandal both Labour and Tory was not allowed to influence the day to day running of the post Office. Tory Ministers lied about Brexit, Covid, parties etc. Ed Davey was lied to.

[@notquiteoverthehill9576]

Judge Fraser was an absolute hero & an example to the law proffesion. Listening to all sides, recognising flawed evidence & calling it out. Unlike many in the Law proffesion before during & after this scandal. He had respect for the law & truth, why is this so remarkable ? Sad for the " proffesion"

[@Ken_oh545]

Profession

[@andydudley1775]

was this before the exsposer by ITV or after ? i do understand there can be at least one decent judge there are accidents this can happen but the 700 odd before him did what again.

[@jimg2850]

I wonder if the victims had used the same kind of defence tactics whether they would have been found in contempt?

[@showlett33]

They would have been seen as petulant and disrespectful, so yes

[@bernardcharlesworth9860]

I think the post office scandal is the tip of the iceberg of public office mismanagement.I think an inquiry into planning and housing would be interesting.

[@alisonwilson9749]

see also, freeports. Private Eye is your friend.

[@tommyhamilton2107]

Seems to me the whole system is corrupt beyond salvation. Is it worth anyone’s time and effort ,bothering to vote for ANY politician in Britain. They all fall foul to cover up. The power corrupts them, I think I will not be voting again. My apologies to all in the past who fought for the rights of us all to vote. Our leaders are spineless.

[@marybusch6182]

and so called healthcare, the owners of the hospitals and their overcharges...

[@Marc-ww7cc]

What do you think of the admission at the inquiry by Bradshaw, the former Post Office Investigator, that his witness statement was written by the PO's lawyers without his involvement and he just signed it. Is that not problematic legally? Must a witness statement by an individual be written by the individual themselves, and if not, should it be made clear in the statement who wrote it and/or whose words and analysis they are?

[@icouldbewrongicouldberight]

If one makes a victim statement at the cop shop, it's drafted (handwritten) by the cop (based on what you tell them happened). This reputedly is because, in order to secure a conviction, certain conditions need to be net, and there are standard phrases which can be used to meet such conditions. The post office was effectively the police in this matter. Hth

[@KeithBurrough-w8m]

Accountability is crucial in the post office fiasco

[@FatHead1979]

That judges was seriously p1ssed with the people associated with the Post Office, nice to see a judge publicly calling out blatant bad behaviour (especially when it's on behalf of big companies that think they can do what they want, without penalty).

[@johnholkham2420]

It turns out that Horizon was not the best system assessed by the PO in fact in most areas it was the worst, it was chosen because it was the cheapest. Probably against the advice of their own technical people it was used because it was cheaper. Long term it looks like the cheapest option will cost a fortune in compensation. I have seen this in my former industry, a “ cheaper solution “ costs a small fortune, delays implementation for years and never quite works and costs a fortune in technical support.

[@jeremybarker7577]

I had a read of documents about how ICL Pathway (the company created to bid for the contract - later absorbed into Fujitsu) ended up with the contract. There were initially 5 contenders - later reduced to 3 - which included ICL Pathway and IBM. It seems that on cost alone the bids from IBM and ICL Pathway were pretty much equal but ICL Pathway was willing to accept a higher degree of risk - particularly fraud risk - which appears to have been the deciding factor in them winning the PFI deal.

[@alisonwilson9749]

@@jeremybarker7577 That worked out well, then.....

[@molsky13]

Van den bogerd she lied through her teeth under oath hopefully prison time should follow

[@TheSadButMadLad]

If fraud had actually occurred, the SPM would have the money somewhere or have spent it. How come the PO never produced any evidence of this. Where did the "stolen" money go? Thin air?

[@PortilloMoment]

The money 'recovered' was included in PO profit figures. Since the PO is a wholly government owned entity, the Treasury has it.

[@stampandscrap7494]

​@@PortilloMomentI think he means . Where did all these postmasters hide the supposed missing money. It never existed. Usually in fraud trials they can show extra money in the perpetrators accounts, or in their lifestyle extra holidays etc.

[@ybliga]

If I had been a SPM, I would have got Horizon to keep doubling up so that it showed I was down a million quid - even the numpty, evil management would have difficulty persuading a court that a million quid was missing from a business handling just a few thousand every day. Anyway, let’s hoe that if criminal offences have been committed, these people find themselves Bedford the courts. Also, let us not forget the role of Fujitsu in all this who should have come clean in the hearing rather than being bought down to ground level by a whistle blower - they are equally culpable!!!!

[@dakjones]

How were the Prosecution allowed to submit evidence of the Interviews when they were conducted by refusing the defendants access to Legal representation?

[@alisonwilson9749]

That creep yesterday at the inquiry (it's available online) said he worked to PACE rules. So why was everything not taped, just for starters?