War in Middle-earth - The Downfall of Numenor

[@dominicomegon4714]

Tolkien's genius knows no bounds.

[@samuelleask1132]

And this is all from the mind of one single guy....incredible.

[@ryancarter1080]

Ironically enough Ar-Pharazon and his supporters did gain eternal life but are now trapped underground in some sort of magical sleep. Immortal as they desired yet they could do nothing with their immortality.

[@tominiowa2513]

But will they learn anything by the time they have to choose sides at Dagor Dagorath?

[@ryancarter1080]

@@tominiowa2513 There is a fanfiction about that actually addresses this, called Dreamers by Mirach

[@joshthomas-moore2656]

The great tragidy of this part of middle earth history was the Numenor did this to themselves yes Sauron brought the final nail in coffin but the Numenorians would have destroyed themselves one or the other it was a matter of how and when not if they destroy themselves heck if Sauron had remained quiet during this time he could sat back drinking tea or whatever his pick of warm beverage is and found the Numenorians had destroyed themselves without having to do anything all.

[@ryancarter1080]

True Numenor was probably going to end up in the situation in a few more generations. Five at most I say

[@TheMarcHicks]

The problem for the Numenoreans, in my opinion, was that being so close to the Undying Lands acted as too large a temptation for them. They would have been better off being left to their own devices in Middle Earth-where I am certain they still would have thrived.

[@paulusillyriusiudathaddaio2530]

Its probably the only instance of me wishing Sauron to win, Numenor got what it deserved.

[@TheMarcHicks]

Yep. Sauron merely hastened their inevitable demise.

[@keyboarddancers7751]

Another quirky and original Tolkien lore meister; extremely entertaining.

[@TheMarcHicks]

I am unsure that Amandil's mission was a complete failure, as the fleets of his sons were spared the worst effects of the cataclysm.....and I suspect Eru (or Ulmo) may have done that due to Amandil's efforts-even if Amandil never personally benefited from it.

[@sageofcaledor8188]

Thank you for a wonderful video!

[@jamesfry8983]

The island of gift from the Valar, the second great home of the white tree. Lo how mighty the ships, how great and wise the men of blessed isle with mountain tall and green, swept under ocean wave to never be seen

[@gregkalomiris4583]

Great video, keep up the good work

[@lambielikesit]

Great video!

[@WhoIsCalli]

Great vid, thanks

[@smithsanity2727]

Love this series. Keep it up bro!

[@keeparizonawild156]

I learned so much from this one.

[@Rynewulf]

Looks like Eru's gift of death backfired when evil's greatest corrupting promise through the ages was continued life

[@jessmith7324]

I always thought Amandil succeeded cause the Silmarillion says a gust of wind from the west blew the surviving ships away from the island as it was being destroyed

[@sakuratheandroidmetalgodde1835]

I need to read that part again. Also, in the video, which was awesome, he said that Sauron bore away the One Ring to Middle-earth when his body was destroyed, but I believe he did not have The One Ring with him in Numenor. I believe he hid it in Mordor.

[@DarthGandalfYT]

The fact that the Faithful were blown away from the destruction of Numenor shows that Amandil might've been partially successful in his mission, at least enough to allow the Faithful to survive. As for the One Ring, Sauron isn't mentioned as having at in the Akallabêth, but in Letter 211, Tolkien mentions that Sauron did have the One Ring, and that Ar-Pharazon likely didn't know about it because the Elves kept knowledge of the Rings of Power as a secret. It's one of those occasions where the Silmarillion is wrong because Tolkien's direct word contradicts it.

[@jessmith7324]

@@DarthGandalfYT Not to contradict that, but are Tolkien's letters considered part of the official legendarium, or appendixes or different versions like with the Silmarillion having 3 diff versions?

[@DarthGandalfYT]

The official legendarium can be divided into two levels of canon - what Tolkien wrote and what Tolkien didn't write. A lot of work (like the Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales and HoME) were published after Tolkien's death, and were mostly put together by Christopher using his father's notes. That's not to say they aren't canon, but it is to say that there are mistakes and contradictions. Tolkien constantly changed his mind on things, meaning some parts of the published Silmarillion were based on notes that Tolkien had since considered obsolete. Basically, anything Tolkien wrote can be considered more canon than something he didn't write, therefore Tolkien's letters are on the same level of canon as LOTR and the Hobbit. They mostly provide some interesting insight or context, and that's pretty much what Letter 211 is - a fan asking about Sauron and Ar-Pharazon, and Tolkien clarifying that Sauron did have the One Ring.

[@paulmayson3129]

If Amandil succeeded, then what happened to Orontor, a close friend of his and Elendil's, who took the same voyage west for the same reason, before Amandil? It is said in the Lost Road that is daughter Firiel was living in Elendil's household while her father was absent, who never returned like Amandil

[@John.S92]

I would not call it "punishment", for Manwë knew not what to do, as he could not war against the children of illuvatar nor wished to act in such a manner, but he could not allow their invasion of Valinor to continue, so in the end Eru illuvatar took action to best preserve the creation.

[@Akechi910]

Very nicely explained, I was looking for a nice documentary like this over Numenor and it's kings, didn't know the numenorians life spans decayed while they were still in numenor.

[@hristokozhuharov2585]

English humor is very welcome. I Hope you do well.

[@dlxmarks]

I think the decline began with Tar-Minastir who "loved the Eldar but envied them." He saved the Elves in their war with Sauron but later spent much of his time in his high tower on the west coast of Númenor gazing toward Aman. He was still faithful but became overcome with longing for something he couldn't have.

[@TheMarcHicks]

Two biggest mistakes the Valar ever made-bringing elves to Valinor in the Years of the Trees, & bringing men within sight of Valinor during the 2nd Age.

[@John.S92]

The greatest mistake the Valar ever made must surely be to not act against morgoth much sooner, seems like something Manwë would perhaps ask Eru Illuvatar about, maybe question his persistent act and actions against the song to be a justifier of direct hinderance in some way for morgoth's power in Arda. (basically a god-made leash placed on morgoth.)

[@Rynewulf]

@@John.S92Yeah between Eru Iluvatar deliberately letting Morgoth go into the world and act evil in the first place (something something part of the plan works out in the end after Millenia of suffering), and the Valar nearly destroying the world in darkness because they just refused to deal with Morgoth and then repeatedly ignoring all problems: I get why it seems so many elves were just done with them and so many men were ready to listen to Sauron, at every step the unquestionable 'good' god and demigods/angels had deliberately encouraged evil for no apparent reason

[@matyasspevacek286]

Love this

[@TOTCD]

All who gain power are afraid to lose that power. The gift of man became the curse of man.

[@ShahjahanMasood]

12:42 What is this artwork called? Edit. Found it. It's called the Eagles of Manwe

[@ingold1470]

Numenor realising their own power and becoming imperialists after the war of the elves and Sauron is reminiscent of the Greeks after repelling Xerxes' invasion & the return of Xenophon's host. Of course there are plenty of differences, but I wonder how common it is for a people to not know their own strength.

[@jackee-is-silent2938]

I think I remember reading that Sauron left his Ring in Mordor and surrendered to the Numenorans. He would have been supported by the Ring from afar, but he warped them without its direct aid.

[@TyranyFighterPatriot]

*That Amandil guy seems like a nice dude* :)

[@dougredshirt3991]

Is there any place where the different arms and armor used by all the different nations is collected in one place. I always wondered what was the difference between what armor and arms a Numenorian infantry man would have used compared to a Gondorian infantry man at the Black Gates. I was always under the impression that the Gonderians by that point were a pale shadow of what the Numenorians were at their height. I have seen people use the comparison between Imperial Rome at its height to the Byzantines. Also for what seems like thousands of years, the best anyone could come up with was mail. The descriptions of Tolkien is always of mail and more mail for a well dressed Elf or a rider of Rohan. Jackson used more plate armor in his movies then Tolkien ever mentioned. Makes it extremely hard to try and model ones figures if you try and recreate the battles in miniature.

[@DarthGandalfYT]

The general theme in Middle-earth is decay so it would be reasonable to assume that the Numenoreans had better weapons and armour than their Gondorian descendents. One example is that Numenorean archers used steelbows, whereas Gondorians used normal longbows. As for armour, you're right that Tolkien only mentions mail, never directly referring to plate (although he mentions vambraces and greaves, which are technically plate armour). Mail would be the go-to if you're making miniatures, but you could definitely embellish them with plate pieces if you're making Numenoreans, Noldor, Dwarves etc.

[@dougredshirt3991]

@@DarthGandalfYT Never knew that the Numenorians used steelbows. Interesting.

[@RomanHistoryFan476AD]

@@DarthGandalfYT I assume the Gondorians could have plate armour but like the late Roman empire and Byzantine Empire it was hard to make and Maintain and not worth the hassle i believe. Gondor reminds me of Byzantine to be honest, well Late third age Gondor i would say at least. Numenor i would say at it's peak is hard to even find a comparison to really, i mean really Gondor in it's golden age or when it becomes the reunited Kingdom under Aragorn reminds me of the Roman Empire at it's prime. But i would say for the sake of Comparison it is easier to say the difference in power, wealth and control would be using the Roman Empire for Numenor and then the Byzantine Empire for Gondor and The lat Western roman empire for Arnor because oh boy Arnor really gets it bad.

[@michelmorio8026]

The Akallabeth... even more tragic then their real worlds inspiration, Plato‘s Atlantis!

[@paulmayson3129]

Tragic? The Numenorians went on to dominate the whole West and South of Middle-earth, from Arnor and Gondor deep into the Hither-lands (Misty Mountains and Rhunaer) to the Southern Realms of the Black Numenorians.

[@michelmorio8026]

Paul Mayson the whole story of the 3 houses of the Edain and their heirs is tragic... from being loyal to the Noldor and Sindar (and therefore to the Ainur & Iluvatar) and suffering under Morgoth for it throughout the First Age, getting an own Realm raised out of the ocean, getting Elros, the „product“ of a special bloodline and his house to lead them, becoming the most developed and educated Nation on Arda, defending the Eldar remaining in Middle-earth and defeating Sauron twice... to ultimately fail & fall due to abandoning their noble path, god(s) and lusting for power, domination and eternal life! YES, I call that story a TRAGIC ONE! But you can only see the negative parts if YOU want! Besides, Black Numenorians wasn‘t a thing back then! It‘s the (remaining) kingsmen, eternal enemies of the Faithful... or the surviving ones of those (Dunedain or „Numenorians in Exile“)

[@tamerofhorses2200]

I see aspects of the exodus in this by the way, with Amandil and the Faithful resembling Moses and the Jews escaping from Egypt.

[@michelmorio8026]

@@tamerofhorses2200 it is rather the Israelites back then, but yeah, Exodus might also have been an inspiration for the Catholic Tolkien

[@tamerofhorses2200]

@@michelmorio8026 The omens above Numenor in the sky and the splitting of the sea remind me a lot of the omens shown to Egyptians. Adunaic names also sound Egyptian don't you think? It's clear Tolkien took a great degree of inspiration from various mythologies and folklore. The life of Turin is very much a parallel of that of Sigurd and his father Sigmund in the Volsunga Saga, with Glaurung being similar to Fafnir. Turin even wears a "Helm of Awe" which was an item also retrieved by Sigurd after he slew Fafnir. The parallels are numerous.

[@windsaw151]

Did Sauron have the Ring when he was in Numenor? I thought he left it behind in Mordor and picked it up again when he returned.

[@shirrgo]

He couldn't. He sealed so much of his own soul in this ring that he couldn't live without it. Thwt's why in the 3rd age he's determined to find it.

[@windsaw151]

@@shirrgo He lived for most part of the 3rd age just fine without the ring. He got himself a new body. He rebuilt Mordor and Bard-Dur. He even still commanded the Nazgul. What he couldn't do was commanding the Nazgul directly all of the time or influence the three elven rings. So he had plenty of power and resources even without the ring. When he was at Numenor, he didn't need the ring's full power. It wouldn't have done him very good anyway. The ring didn't help him much against the Numenoreans even close to his stronghold, how would it in the enemy's lair?

[@dlxmarks]

I thought he didn't have it there as well but Tolkien confirmed in a letter that Sauron was wearing the Ring in Númenor. However I think he could have corrupted the King and his followers without it because they were already so far down that path.

[@russelldeboersap4701]

I don’t think their mission to plea for the men of Numenor was ignored. It can be mercy to destroy wicked men. And Aragorn still came about

[@tominiowa2513]

Just speculation, but Eru's mercy could have been insuring that the nine ships of the Faithfull were not sunk in the great storm that destroyed Númenor.

[@perisdim]

does worshiping the Darkness (or anything in that matter) has any impact in the world of Arda?

[@DarthGandalfYT]

I don't think it has any metaphysical effects. It seems to be the fairly standard - Worshipping evil = moral decay = societal decay.

[@TJDious]

Inziladun: No, no, no... My name is way too cool. This is out of hand. It ends here

[@sayagarapan1686]

Brilliant.

[@thorshammer7883]

Why did the amount of Elves born in the Middle Earth dwindle so much during the Second and Third age even with thousands of years of peace between elven Wars compared to the First Age and before?

[@DarthGandalfYT]

There was always a steady stream of Elves sailing into the West. Many of those who remained behind were older Elves who had already had children or were at the point in their life where they weren't going to have children.

[@Shamangirl92]

Plus, elves never really had high birth rates. Feanor and his seven sons were considered a major exception.

[@thorshammer7883]

@@Shamangirl92 I always found that a bit ridiculous really. Because even long living humans had lots of children in the Bible when they used to have 900 year life spans. A pair of parents had around a dozen kids on average and so did the next generation.

[@Negetive2digit]

I'm guessing that killing random people with lightning didn't count as breaking the whole deal to not do bad things to the Numenorians. Maybe Eru figured that he could just let that slide.

[@karlfranz5229]

U know what, they say tolkien is a religous guy, the fall of numenor kinda reminds me the story of noah from the bible, from humans being corrupted, water destroying all of them and faithful survivors in boats starting a new, if that is ment then tolkien is freaking genius.

[@legiohysterius4624]

Atlantis too

[@369QQQ]

@@legiohysterius4624 this is what happend to Atlantis. Yes.

[@Lucy-yc4bc]

Tolkien’s faith definitely influenced a lot of his writings, but as others have said I think numenor was more inspired by Atlantis then Noah

[@davidcardon8356]

crazy how tolkien thought up all of this

[@369QQQ]

Beacuse its real.

[@thorshammer7883]

Was it moral or the right thing to do for the Valar to force half men and elvish born people to choose between being man or elf?

[@DarthGandalfYT]

It gives them a choice. I guess that's better than not giving them a choice.

[@aleksanderbirch3677]

More

[@tehwatcherintehwater2022]

If anyone deserves yo be called "the Faithful," it was the King's Men because they were loyal to Ar-Pharazôn.

[@RomanHistoryFan476AD]

Nah the "foolish" would be a better title for them.

[@tehwatcherintehwater2022]

@@RomanHistoryFan476AD Oh look, I found an Eledili traitor! Don't you have any sacrifices that you need to attend?

[@RomanHistoryFan476AD]

@@tehwatcherintehwater2022 No only need a boat to get off this island.