Warhammer 40,000 LEVIATHAN - The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly!

[@AngryJoeShow]

How do you feel about Alternating Activations for 40k? Im with you on getting rid of Battle Ready and Wound rolls! Faster means more fun, more games, mroe time to focus on tactics.

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

Yeah, another thing that's pretty standard these days. It does slow down play a little bit, so they probably haven't adopted it because the wound roll already slows things down - so another advantage of getting rid of that roll. 😃

[@marklong4317]

Hi Peter, if I remember correctly the Starship Troopers game system (Andy Chambers) had just a two roll system, basically hits caused damage (one roll, if a shot is made it hits and just causes the damage), then a save which portrays the armour/chitin shell effect to absorb the wound. Much quicker, and still loads of fun

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

It's defunct now isn't it? I must track down the rules one day.

[@marklong4317]

@@EsotericOrderGamers Yes, Mongoose couldn’t continue the licensing I believe and it was pulled from the shelves. I have lots of Troopers and Bugs and if you’re ever in Blighty come and have a game! Not sure how I could get the rules to you…

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

Never mind, I have games coming out my ears as it is! 😆

[@Stewart-t2x]

I enjoyed your unboxing to see product in the box. A great job painting your minis. I will be getting box set sat.25- 23. Question what paint color was used on the minis. They did not have contrast paint in the 90s. Your paint job was awesome. Thanks sharing and have a good day.

[@grimskald]

That is a beautiful rulebook. It could be the nicest they have ever done.

[@unclebones]

Peter, the voice of sense in miniature gaming, thanks again for a sensible review

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

That's the first time in my life I've been the voice of sense! 🤣 Thanks Bones.

[@wolfie54321]

I like the 2 rolls system, however I think when I started playing there was a smaller volume of dice to roll (e.g. in WHFB back then it was more uncommon that one side would roll more than 10 dice to attack). It only took a few seconds to roll, pick up the successes, and roll again. These days I feel like much of the time units are rolling 10's of dice, and a single turn might see 100's of dice thrown... in which case the 2 rolls system becomes a bit onerous.

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

I had to laugh when I watched the new battle report and saw how much screen time was taken up by roll after roll after roll ... unfortunately it does sully my experience of the game.

[@wolfie54321]

@@EsotericOrderGamers For me it depends on the game. In WHFB, I liked the to-hit-to-wound, in 40k I'm mostly indifferent but would be happy to see less time spent rolling dice in general. In Epic 40k, I like the single roll system because it highlights that any one unit/roll/moment isn't as important as the broad overview of the battle.

[@Trueflights]

We still enjoy the 2nd edition "roll to hit, roll to wound". As someone else mentioned though, that was back from a time when an entire unit was rolling 5 to 10 dice total. The entire system has gotten way too out of hand and they need to go back to a more simple method like they used to have.

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

@@Trueflights I think the fact that it's changed in their skirmish games means the change is on the way ...

[@ignitedxblaze]

Actually started by wargaming journey with conquest, yup the two wound step dated and giving feel bads. Would like to see more conquest bat reps in the future!

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

We'll see!

[@oneofmanyAndyRobertsons]

Hey, I'm open... ;)

[@beermonster]

Great video. Those Tyranids really look menacing. Great paint job! Looking forward to the battle report.

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

Me too! Now, back to painting ...

[@matthewjohnmoriarty]

just discovered your channel, love your vibe

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

Thanks! Be sure to check out the website at orderofgamers.com, there's lots available there to explore.

[@brother_wesley]

Really like your idea of less rounds of dice rolling. Hope they listen for future editions. 👍

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

As long as I get a percentage! 🤣🤣

[@oneofmanyAndyRobertsons]

Unfortunately, GW stopped responding to my fevered scrawls long ago...

[@1995HunterKiller]

There was a rumor that they were getting rid of wound rolls for 10th, but there was a decent amount of backlash for that. i imagine, if GW were planning to do that, they changed their mind when they saw the reaction to the leak

[@oneofmanyAndyRobertsons]

Given the fan base, I reckon there's gonna be backlash no matter what changes / stays the same ;D I feel that the current success of AoS justifies the massive backlash that destroying the old world with End Times generated at the time - any massive restructuring of 40k's rules would be similar; short-term grievance, then long-term growth and an expanded audience. Possibly wishful thinking on my part, though.... 😅

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

Not surprised - some people get very, very defensive about changes to their favourite game. But yeah, it's still worth doing! 🤣

[@PanZerm4n]

Thanks for the review. Just played an intro game at the local gw and I completely agree about the wound roll. Both my opponent and I were bogged down by asking each other ‘and what’s your toughness?’ We rolled like 50 dice each and there were only three total casualties. If you haven’t played One Page Rules, check that out. For a newbie like me, it was much more streamlined and fun. I hope to enjoy the official rules one day though. Regarding painting, I think there should be some incentive to painting your miniatures. In a casual setting, strict adherence to the rules seems moot anyway, so I’m fine with the inclusion of the extra vp ‘rule’. I would never ask for the extra points against an unpainted army, but would point to it in jest in the hopes of getting someone to paint their stuff. Painted armies look cool. It’s all about the spectacle for me.

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

The spectacle is a huge factor for me too, and personally I wouldn't enjoy playing against an unpainted army - I just don't want there to be an official in-the-rules penalty for people who choose not to paint and still want to play.

[@noprobllama9747]

Can't believe the hype from three months ago. All calmed down now but still lots of new miniatures to collect with the tyranid codex launching today.

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

There's always hype, and there'll always be another edition! 🤣

[@kayosiiii]

As I understand it the wound roll is there to deal with limitations of basing the game on the six sided die. I think you could combine to hit and wound if you used say a 10 sided dice for each attack. Alternatively you could have game mechanics that trigger on the number of hits, like being able to pin units in place.

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

Yes, I agree, they need a wider range of probabilities. Though there are still D6 games out there that seem to get away with it. Again, back in '87 non-D6 dice were a relative rarity!

[@MustContainMinis]

Thanks so much for making this video. I am really hoping to buy this box. I have my name on a list for it at a FLGS so fingers crossed! Happy Gaming!

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

You're welcome, and I very much hope there are no issues with supply this time around.

[@Flamethrower1942]

I use to like the old flames of war method of shooting ( i say old because i only played the last edition) Simply rolled to hit and added modifiers so -1 long range -1 if unit is in cover -1 if the unit had gone to ground etc, after shooting and the relevant modifiers are applied the opponent got to roll their saves .

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

I do like a straightforward system that doesn't get in the way of the fun.

[@dave4deputyZX]

You're right they should merge the To Wound role and the Save roll, but you cant do that using a D6 system.

[@oneofmanyAndyRobertsons]

Hard disagree, I'm afraid, sir - literally every single other D6 system that doesn't feature this rule has found a viable alternative...

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

Make it D10 - sorted! 😆

[@dave4deputyZX]

@@oneofmanyAndyRobertsons I dont see how it would work in 40k. There woudlnt be enough of a gradient in terms of durability or lethality. It would be weird lasguns damaging a greater daemon on a 6. What would they kill a guardsman on, a 4? To make the greater daemon withstand lasgun fire like he does today, you'd have to more than double his wounds. Which would be weird. What other ways do other D6 gaming systems use?

[@oneofmanyAndyRobertsons]

@@dave4deputyZX Kia ora Dave, I'll caveat my reply with the disclaimer that I'm an excitable man-child that always favours speed and immersion over rules crunch. Further, any change to a rules system as established as 40k is *always* going to seem weird and have it's detractors. Comparing systems is hard, because different designers have their own goals in terms of rules granularity (as you alluded to above regarding toughness of the daemon), but my personal favourite D6 systems would be Relic Blade and Hobgoblin. Games like Hobgoblin and AT-43 use a universal table to get away with single-roll resolutions, but if you wanted to keep the granularity of an entirely discrete stat like Toughness for example, but still keep the rolling to a minimum, then my approach would be to keep the 'To Hit' roll, then use the Toughness as dividing stat. Ie, my Daemon has Toughness 3, meaning every 3 hits equal one wound, while a guardsman has a toughness of 1. This keeps the handling and passing of dice to a minimum, thus increasing speed of play (and therefore narrative immersion) without excessively increasing the cognitive load of the players. Obviously a very rough and ready solution, but my point is that not every stat requires an iterative dice-sifting mechanic to reach a satisfying result. My two cents, Dave :D

[@m.e.3862]

Nice review! I can imagine high school and college gaming clubs having a copy of this as a way to get members. And that vp rule would quickly be ignored if they wanted to keep their new members!😊

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

It really is quite gatekeepy. Penalising people who don't have time to paint their minis - not on I reckon! 😆

[@thedourkin]

I love the Tyranid colour scheme, it's similar to a model Ninjon painted recently which was also very organic and Xenomorph inspired.

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

Hey I googled that and it really is! Some nice tips there to make mine look better - thankyou!

[@williamtanner2166]

Here here on the painting! I am a fan of the "Gray Horde" myself :)

[@oneofmanyAndyRobertsons]

Boooo, no play for Mr Gray!! 😂

[@pancakeonions]

Great video Peter, thanks for the contribution! My first experience with 40 K was painting up some of their lovely miniatures to allow a small orks versus Nurgül game. I had a full squad of orc boys that charged some Nergul space marines, I rolled well over 100 dice, then rolled a few more dozen to wound, then they rolled saves and I swear to God there was a fourth roll in there somewhere… And after that ridiculosity, I believe I removed one of his models… One If there is one way to turn a guy off to the world of minis wargaming, that is it. I was done with this game after that one demonstration. What a ridiculous rule.

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

Glad you agree Matt! I know there are strong opinions either way, but it is the one thing that has stopped me playing more of GW's 'big two' games.

[@gaz3602]

I'm trying to think of a arachnid paint scheme from starship troopers for the nid side

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

It's often difficult to replicate colour schemes from movies and real life, as they tend to be a difficult mixture of dark and unidentifiable colours! Looks like some of those bugs have striated orange patterns however.

[@gaz3602]

@@EsotericOrderGamers oh I know I haven't even started the box yet due to work.

[@lorddraconum]

I do agree with you. That the rule about painted figures should not be in the main rule book. I don't play 40k. But i do collect some of the models to use in other games. As you said about the wound rules. I think what 40k has is a little overboard.

[@stuartrathbone1291]

10 and a bit years ago I was a regular player at a 40k club. We made a decision not to get into power gaming but to play a bit more on theme, which isn't a criticism of anyone else, just how we wanted to play. We would attend tournaments, but had no intention of playing at the top tables. So each year by the time the tournaments came around we would have fully painted and nicely presented armies. However after that we'd normally be developing new armies for next year and go from piles of fresh grey plastics to fully painted over about 9 months. We would have had ZERO problem ignoring a rule like battle ready, but oh boy can I see other groups and players struggling with this. What a silly addition.

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

I must admit I find it a bit difficult to understand those who take the competitive aspect of a game with so much luck in it so seriously - but each to their own, everyone gets their fun in different ways!

[@LordTechnopants]

Generally identifying as a skirmish-level gamer, the real question I have is: How much shelf space for these GW boxes do you have sir? Being familiar with your previous tours I can well imagine it's getting tricky! Here we have Kill Team, Warcry, Necromunda, Core Space, KOW Armada, Darkest Dungeon (& Adeptus Titanicus) and our IKEA Kallaxes are very very full. It's a good job I can't get hold of any of the GW big boxes as I'm out of storage space.

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

Yeah, it is getting a problem, they pretty much take up 18 cubes of a shelf. Still, it's a nice problem to have!

[@matthewjohnmoriarty]

totally agree about wound rolls!!!

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

I'm not alone! 🤣

[@danielhya7295]

Can't wait to see you do a battle report with this one...

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

It'll happen!

[@bradp6452]

Like clock work a new edition of 40k with more ultramarines. Oh but look these terminators are bigger than the 40 you already have. Some of these new nids look cool but i think i have a pile of unbuilt nids in the garage.

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

You'll be saving yourself a few bucks then! 🤣

[@sergeantrattus6149]

I agree that dice step is pain

[@pmsobol]

everybody hates the 3 rolls in a massive battles game... even for combat patrol it would be enough. to hit + save would be more then enough (and I always thought that vehicles and termies should roll d10 for save and frail infantrymen only d6's).

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

It's an old-fashioned system to be sure ...

[@shaneflickinger]

I like your more natural insect-like paint scheme for the tyranids. Definitely not a paint scheme you see that often. I still have my brightly colored red, pink, orange, blue and purple 2nd ed. tyranid army, but I've painted some xenomorph like genestealers in some of my Space Hulk boxes. It's nice to see that they are trying to provide content for the more casual gamer like myself, but the price point to buy in still isn't for casuals, so I'm gonna pass on this box. Cheers Peter.

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

I didn't bother going into price as I don't know what it is yet, but yes, I'm sure it'll be high!

[@hendrikmoons8218]

The Esoteric Order of Gamers: 19:30 and onward: GET RID OF THE "TO WOUND ROLL". Me: NO, NEVER, please GW, do not get rid of it. Maybe for your smaller games aka Kill Team, but not for WH40k. Esoteric Gamer: Why not? Me: Are you ok with a lengthy explanation? Esoteric Gamer: Sure, why not? Me: Because if you skip on the "To Wound Roll", you make all titans vulnerable to lasguns and shotguns. EG: Wot mate? Ya lost some folk there... Me: Let me give ya an example. EG: OK Me: 20 Igies of mine (imperial guards with 1 shot/turn strength 3 lasguns, ap0) shoot at your Dreathnaught. EG: OK Me: In your system, that is a dead dreadnaugth, for he can only coffin-dance so much and fail to safe so little, he dead. Also me: In the current system, as to my humble opinion it should be, them lasguns are not even toutching the paintjob, let alone put a scratch on this proper warmachine. ... EG: So if something is just to big, it is invulnerable? Me: That is why you had bunker busters even in WW2 and not just an idiot with a molotov cocktail, unless you are Russian. Me: Also, a BBgun may look real, do not take it to a real gunfight... Same reason.

[@hendrikmoons8218]

I 100% agree with your the ugly point. Outside of tournament, I believe in the unpainted horde is ok. I would rather play against an experianced plyer with a new grey plastic horde than a well painted army by an award winning painter that just throws models on the table because they look cool. I'm also welcoming newbies with their first, still not yet painted armies to help them with their first games. Wich in my opinion is more important than the paint. It is a warGAME after all, not a ... I paint my hystorical army ... kinda thingy. Also cool, but a different hobby.

[@hendrikmoons8218]

Maybe get rid of the 'To Hit Roll' since weapon profiles are now part of the one holding it.

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

@@hendrikmoons8218 You're certainly entitled to your opinion, and I'm not saying it's as simple as 'get rid of the wound roll' - I'm really just using that as shorthand for 'cut down on the amount of time you have to spend rolling dice and the unnecessary complexity of what is essential a duplicated step'. It would involve a rework of the old system - and I'm sure it can be done because GW's games are the only ones that still hang on to this overly fiddly system. I think it's telling that ALL of GW's games used to use 'roll to hit, roll to wound, roll to save' and now only the big two do. Oh, and next time, don't speak in my voice OK? It's weird. 🤣🤣🤣 Appreciate your feedback!

[@hendrikmoons8218]

@@EsotericOrderGamers Ty 4 the responce ^^ And me speaking that way, well that be me, an old known issue. I mean no harm^^ too much D&D and Vampire the masqarade roleplay I guess. There are indeed to many rolls at the curent. Me personally am more a fan of fropping the to hit roll, for what did I hit? Your vitals or your cloack?

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

@@hendrikmoons8218 No offence taken. 😄 We can call it anything, but one roll would be enough!

[@Trueflights]

Been playing WHG40k for 30 years and I still have tons of unpainted minis. I play the game to have fun, not to paint. I despise that part of the hobby. I do have a ton of painted minis that I've done over the years, but honestly, I couldn't care less if they were painted or not when I play. They have always had a ruling of some kind about painted minis and I can agree with it at tournaments and things (though like you said, it should be the tournament organizer's rule, not GW's) but this is the first time that I think it has been tied to actual victory points. We have always just ignored those rules anyway.

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

I've been told it was in 9th edition too, but either way, it needs to get gone!

[@wolfie54321]

Was hoping you guys got a copy to review!

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

There's just me here! 🤣

[@wolfie54321]

@@EsotericOrderGamers Oh? I thought some of the chaps you play with might have been involved, haha.

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

They just show up and play - I do all the work! 😆

[@wolfie54321]

@@EsotericOrderGamers Haha, well get some of them around to play some games so we can see how it plays! I haven't played 40k since 3rd or 4th edition, but this box is tempting me with those Tyranids and Terminators.

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

@@wolfie54321 Working on it! Though I have to paint these first, otherwise I'll lose 10 VP... 🤣

[@MiniatureMasterClass]

How in the name of the Emperor is your 1st edition not falling apart??????

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

I must have been lucky, it's held up well, though a bit of interior spine parting is visible now. But then again, I wasn't constantly thumbing through it all the time back in the day.

[@RozzCraft]

Yeah, Battle Ready was a rule in 9th. Generally ppl just ignore it if it's not a competition.

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

It's definitely past time to pull it from the rulebook then! 😆

[@mih2]

Get well soon, dude

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

Thanks mate 😷

[@aaronsomerville2124]

We absolutely should gatekeep people who don’t have enough respect for their opponents to paint their own models.

[@oneofmanyAndyRobertsons]

Hmmm, my satire-meter isn't working this morning, so can't tell quote how sincere that comment is 😬

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

@Andy Robertson He's trying to be a man of mystery I suppose.

[@oneofmanyAndyRobertsons]

That box art is giving me some *serious* Starcraft vibes....and the circle of pop-cultural-appropriation is complete! 😎

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

Yeah, didn't think of that!

[@Syko1985]

How old are you? you look very well for your age, you don't look older than 40 years old imo and you started back in '78??

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

That's officially my favourite comment in 10 years of content creation!!! Thankyou so much. 🤣👏 I'm 57 and was 12 in 1978.

[@leonidaspereirafilho499]

@@EsotericOrderGamers you afe t7? Jesus Christ, someone needs to lookminto your genome, it hides the key to immortality. You look so good bro, what the heck.

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

Well that's made my day, thankyou. Rather than genomes, my tip is our choice not to have children - not saying it's a choice for everyone, but I definitely think it helps! 🤣🤣 And of course, playing tabletop games keeps me young!

[@Mofflin1]

I gotta say that as nice as the models look, that scale creep is getting out of hand. It was one thing watching the OG marines get left behind, but why on Terra did they need to be even larger than existing Primaris? It's so jarring to look at! It makes me less inclined to purchase models that take up so much damn room in a case and I swear they only did it to kick kit-bashers in the balls.

[@catcadev]

Great review! But also, the Indomitus space marine is running, and the Leviathan one is standing straighter. Of course he's gonna be taller 😂

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

That's probably my poor filming - trust me, in real life there's a small but noticeable size increase.

[@Gherkinkhan]

No, you can see it in head size, shoulder breadth, bulk of the model as well. Peter is correct!

[@Matt-cd8dv]

Thanks for the review. I hope your cough is gone now

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

Not quite gone yet but thankyou for the kind thought!

[@rhyshughes9156]

Doesn't even supply the units cards that are in the book. Lazy

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

All cards for all factions will be available for download, which seems more handy than just supplying the ones for these 2 factions in the box, don't you think?

[@GrimrDirge]

I love battle ready, but then I'm 95% painter/collector, and I despise bare or barely painted armies.

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

That's a personal choice for sure, but it shouldn't be a gameplay rule IMHO.

[@Trueflights]

Complete opposite here. I hate painting. I buy the models to play the game. I couldn't care less if you have a golden daemon award winning army or a sea of gray unpainted minis. Tehy all play exactly the same in the game.

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

To me the game is all about the spectacle, in-game cinematic events, and laughs, so I love everything to look amazing - but I'd certainly never penalise someone with a VP reduction for not feeling the same way!

[@RedeyeX23]

Your right though that battle ready rule though, ridiculous, and goes against the social aspect of gaming. The two dice rule ...your wrong :) its classic , i personally find it fun while increasing the range of possibility for different weapons.

[@scepteredisle]

It's on there because they want you to rush paint-your VERY EXPENSIVE models - be unhappy with them - and buy MORE. When it's GW, being cynical is quite frankly giving GW too much credit, their intentions are always worse. Very few people are aware you can strip your models of paint, weirdly.

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

OK Jon, I'm ready, let's get into it! 🤣 Why? In comparison to almost every other tabletop miniatures system, including GW's own Kill Team and Warcry, it's redundant, and just stretches out the combat into a long-winded dice chucking and counting process. You could increase the range of possibility just as effectively by having D8s or 10s instead of D6s. What do you (and many, many other people I'm sure) find fun about it - I really am curious. 😃 Or is it just 'it's always been that way...'?

[@RedeyeX23]

@@EsotericOrderGamers Hi for me its tension of rolling a bunch of dice then rolling the hits again...so a tactile thing too..also using two dice to determine an outcome is bit more opaque in calculating an outcome, with one dice not so. Its a very old system in wargaming probably predates warhammer. it might feel less like a wargame if it was different. its a personal thing and thats all i have to say in my defence :)

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

@@RedeyeX23 And that's absolutely fine, I understand and respect how people can get very attached to it. I wonder what Bryan Ansell was influenced by when he first came up with it for Warhammer Fantasy Battle. In any case, there are hundreds of other amazing games that don't do it - worth checking out if you feel like some variety, especially games in the indie wargaming space!

[@RedeyeX23]

@@EsotericOrderGamers Absolutely, most of my gaming is boardgaming anyway so with the exception of Shadows of Brimstone (similar but also derivative of old school Warhammer Quest) combat is not resolved in this way. Tradition has a part to play in using this for Warhammer games but also they may have the rethink the stat lines for units, also probably too much a change. Thank you.

[@mrheem]

You're confusing a roll to hit and a roll to wound, they are different. A roll to wound is integral to playing warhammer.

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

Mate, I've been playing Warhammer since the 80s, I haven't confused a thing. I really have to smile at such solemn pronouncements of fact - you sound like the kind of guy who a few years ago would have sworn the Old World was integral to playing Warhammer Fantasy Battle. Nothing is set in stone, and just because it's been that way for years doesn't mean it won't be different in the future. It's a game, not holy writ. And even if for some unfathomable reason the roll was somehow crucial to the Warhammer experience, that doesn't change my opinion that by the standards of modern tabletop wargame design it's a clunky system showing its age that requires too much rolling of dice, and could easily be far more elegant. Of course that's just my opinion. 🤣

[@scepteredisle]

The Wound roll works in 40K (perhaps less in this edition given they've thrown out completely the RPG elements), but it works completely because it might be easier for you to "hit" an opponent but wounding them is another matter completely. This allows the game designers to have fast-highly skilled Eldar/Space Elves deal out lots of attacks (for example) and hit the enemy due to superior skill, but when attacking - say an Orc - suddenly that successful hit isn't cutting deep enough into the orc's bulk. You could roll toughness into armour but again, the current system allows game designers to simulate weapons cutting through armour, poison effects etc. In previous additions grav weapons were deadly against heavily armoured troops etc. This is the RPG roots of the game and without them... well the lack of depth is apparent in 8th-10th edition now. Sad times. When GW got rid of the classic stat-line they basically began to kill the game. Because that classic stat line, taken from RPGs historically, TELLS A STORY. That's gone and with it, the depth of the game has been killed off.

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

Very interesting points, though they feel like real-world justifications for something that could just as easily be better simulated by better game design. Remember this system was originally invented in 1983, but not because it was the *best* way to simulate tabletop battles, otherwise a lot of other people would have copied it since. No other modern tabletop systems I know off have a three-phase-roll combat system, for the reasons I go into. Back in 1983 people had far more patience for longer combat resolution systems, and GW have been afraid of changing it in their main 2 games since - even though they have in their other games. I don't agree that the story is gone with a shorter stat line and a snappier combat system - the story has always been with the players and how they imagine the events on the tabletop. I know this because I play lots of other tabletop miniatures games and the story is alive and well in all of them! 😃 In any case the RPG elements of W40K were really only in there to a great degree in the original Rogue Trader book. But I'm not trying to spoil anyone's fun by any means - this is just my personal opinion after 40 years of gaming!

[@pancakeonions]

I have to echo Peters points here, all those things you raise in your post are taken care of with better game design, and newer gaming systems. This old clunky three or four roll system is just unbearably slow and very obtuse. And the narrative story elements, you gotta try a more modern game! They are definitely there, and definitely very much a part of games like Deadzone!

[@shaneschossow9705]

Yes ruin the game for the people who are serious about it

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

You do look like a very serious fellow. 🤣 Seriously - really, really seriously - it's just my opinion, I'm not forcing you to agree with it, and I don't think Games Workshop are all that interested in what I say about their billion-dollar earning game. So there's nothing to worry about!

[@shaneschossow9705]

@The Esoteric Order of Gamers no I was talking about 10th edition. Sorry for the confusion

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

Oh I see, sorry about that! But why do you think 10th edition ruins the game?

[@shaneschossow9705]

I have been playing since rogue trader and I feel the rules have been nerfed which for me mean lack of atmosphere , immersion for example vehicles having wounds instead of armour factors another peeve is line of sight and firing archs not to mention blast markers if you throw a grenade for example but miss the target it's still going to land somewhere and go off there is so much I could go on with. Safe to say when I run a games night it's full immersion and the gamers keep coming back

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

The answer is - house ruling!

[@paytreonsuhks]

Literally nothing nice to say about 10th, what a travesty. Good vid though, been a fan since 2014 or so.

[@EsotericOrderGamers]

Are you saying that *you* have nothing nice to say about 10th edition ( I assume so, 'cause I do). What do you dislike so much about it? Come on, you have to go into more detail than that mic drop! 😆