New Tau Tactics - Favorite Septs, Characters, Support Systems, Combos

[@senseilewis3707]

I was playing with Tau the other day and they are amazing. Now things to consider for any Tau player, these are some of the things I like to use standard per game. I believe with this core list, you can tweek your army into your personal play style. HQ 2 x Cadre fireblades 1 x Etheral (your choice) (drones up to you) troops 4 x strike teams (ten mod per unit) 8 x markerlights fast attack 2 x pathfinder units (units of 10) make sure each squad has 3 x rail rifles. 2 x pulse acclerators (plus 6inch shoot range increase) 2 x anti-grach inhibators (takes D3 of enemy charge phase) now i like the fact that there are two great Septs for all of us Tau players Bor'kan which he mentions for the +6 inch shoot range or attentively Tau septs for the 5 or 6 overwatch ability. Now noticed in addition to this with bor'kan Tau fire warriors will gain 12 inch's to shooting with a 21 inch rapid fire and if you include the Cadre fireblade that is an extra +1 to shot per model. so each unit (not model) within 6 inchs get's that. or alternatively the over watch abillity with 36 inch range for standard pulse rifles with the pulse accelerator drone within 6 inchs, and 18 inch rapidfire. cool so for 3CP i like to take up 3 signature systems into my army which has to be given to the HQ units, and i like to take 3 x drone controllers. one to each HQ choice. drone controller give the +1 to hit. Now when you shoot a unit with your markerlights with the drones then instantly go to 4+ to hit if in range of a HQ unit. if you can get that one markerlight to hit, that gives you your re-rolls for the one. Now if you manage to land 5 markerlights to give you the +1 to hit. You can effectively take your standard pathfinders and strike teams hitting on 2+ with re-rolls of 1's. due to being within 6 inchs of a drone controller (+1 to hit) and the 5 hits you got with your markerlights.

[@WarpChargedGaming]

Sensei Lewis hell yeah! Great thoughts. Cool list! Thanks for checking out the vid

[@senseilewis3707]

Thank you, I enjoyed the watching the vid, and by watching your vid, it showed I was going in the right direction. The list I mention above is a good core base i personally believe for any Tau player, then you add on to it from there. it could easily accommodate the 3 x riptides and still leave you around 500 points for a 2k list. I personally decided to run my army up in addition: 2 squads of broadsides (3models per squad) 6 armed with heavy rail rifles 6 sets of smart missle systems or plasma rifles - 2 x drone controller - 4 x target lock ( if i decide to move them) or velocity tracker if you plan to keep still. (drones your choice) 1 sniper marksmen accompanied with 4 x sniper drones 2 squads of crisis battle suits ( 3 per squad) held in manta strike -4 models with dual fusion blasters - 2 with burst cannons - 2 armed with drone controller (drones your choice) I like to use the crisis suits in manta becuase if i get charged boom i drop them on the table and and kill stuff, or if my gun line is doing well i can use them on the attack and strike vital points. You should notice the army list i created is symmetrical if you include these, so if split my army in two each side would have: 1 x cadre fireblade 2 x fire warriors 1 x pathfinder 3 x brodsides 3 x crisis battlesuits plus all the drones, and as each side is equal there are alot more verstile and if you alpha charge and half you army gets wiped, the good news you still have an effective fighting force to cause havoc across the board. Alot of people think Crisis suits are bad, but placing them in manta to help your gun lines out when needed are awesome and to give surgical strikes in the right place too. I personally like the fact i can guarantee my fusion blasters and burst cannon hit on a 3+ and with a marker light potentially 2+ with the re-roll of 1's to hit. Tthen if you play focus fire, thats really good and in addition to that, they are classed as flying models so -1 to hit.

[@deathlypotao11]

Drone controllers dont work on fire warriors

[@rathstar]

I'm in the same place when it comes to sept choice. Septs to splash in (if you go for the Tau brigade to get the command points) is an Sa'cea Ethereal (who can still support your Tau sept lines) and 3 firesight marksmen. The marksmen are characters so can not be shot when at the back of your lines, and in the Sa'cea sept they reroll to hit. Other than that Farsight has potential for the fusion blades relic or a crisis suit bomb. Try 3 crisis suits with 3 cyclic ion blasters each (the same cost as 1 heavy burst cannon riptide with support options or 2 broadsides. They put out 27 shots, and on overcharge are are str8 ap-1 & D3 damage, great against necron's quantum shielding and 2+/3++ save opponents. And all this is before you use the drop zone clear stratagem. Only issue is also including farsight drones for the farsight detachment as the Tau drones can't take hits for them.

[@WarpChargedGaming]

Rathstar like it man. Thanks for the stats on the suits to riptide ratio. Dig the marksman detach on the side to boost the effectiveness and sneak a cheap extra CP!

[@J.Panxer]

Borkan det w broadsides and riptides; Viorla det for xv9 hazards and xv8s w ion. Also consider tech drones for your suits. x2/unit, on a 4+ they give back d3 wounds each, so you don't have to spend a command point

[@peterandjunko]

You mentioned Farsight enclaves but didn't get into it much. Have you tried a detachment yet? Drop Zone Clear strat looks to have potential for crisis suits loaded out with cheap burst cannons to clear out a horde. Also +1 to wound (sept tenet) for a homing beacon placed crisis unit with flamers could be devastating vs T4 and T3 units. Seem to be only two ways to get any value for crisis suits.

[@WarpChargedGaming]

Thanks for your thoughts Rancid! I haven't gone past making a min detach with like the 3 marksman and a coldstar with the farsight enclaves, just so I could take the fusion blades relic. I have seen the flamer spam / yhavara played with homing beacons in index land... You can actually see that win this local tourney I played and filmed in the last battle of this video... kzbin.info/www/bejne/l5yXnpyoZaetnrs Haven't tried it but it might be the move to try! I have a boat load of suits but can't get myself to try it competitively over riptides, although the biggest weakness of tau is against -1 to -2 to hit targets, certain list push the negatives hard and can make all the shooting become very lack luster. Those flamers sound like a nice way to get around that mechanic. I hate that the +1 to wound is so good but then you don't care about the tau sept 5+ over watch cuz you just have flamers anyway, making the sept trait have little bonus feeling wasteful, plus you have to tax yourself some 3-6 troop slots + hq's to farm some command points to be able to use the 3cp strat and then some. I'm not agains the idea that mixing in a little of everything could work out... But seems that spamming or "focusing an idea with gusto does better than spreading utility out, quickly becoming good at many but not strong at any one thing. Been doing well with my current list, just tough time vs my buddy who I have a couple live batreps on the channel of taking my list vs his Aeldari, Ynarri, alatioc shenanigans. With a looming FAQ that rumors impending doom to soup lists this may not be trouble much longer. :p

[@peterandjunko]

Warp Charged Gaming thanks for the insight. I'm a new tau player and not really at a competitive level. Just putting out ideas on finding good sept combos. I mistook the FSE tenet as +1 to wound. Only re roll ones on wounds so not as good for flamers or anything else. Another nice detachment is an outrider borkan with yvharra and 2x4 shield drones with a cadre. 14" flamers is nasty. But yeah, Tau Sept makes sense for competitive for all the reasons you stated. I'm also going to try to see if I can get viorla to workout since my army is painted as such. Good luck with the channel!

[@momqabt]

A cold fusion CMD while sounds good on paper I'd rather be as far away from my enemy as possible. Reroll 1s fireblade marks, network markerlight even with a roll of a 1 means 2 marks fire away with seeker missiles add the +1 wound after and watch the Imperial knight or baneblades or whatever just melt t1. You can have 2 spotters also marking different things for funzies. Worst case scenario fireblade EMP stratagem that knight for the +1 wounds If you really Really must. Longstrike yeah I like him just drones can't block for him so he's a big target on the map that can be easily dakkad into oblivion. 1 unite of 3 xv88 missile squad and 2 units of 1 xv88 railplas I found to be much more effective. Missiles for griblies and railplas for at/ahv. With rerolls they are a pain for the enemy and drone support keeps them alive usually till t3. If they didn't do their job by then you're doing something wrong

[@J.Panxer]

Run a Y'Varah with your melta commander. You will wreck shop.

[@tvr4367]

i found the strategem of voir'la pretty effective, shoot twice at the closest enemy unit ( worded in the way so you pick the closest unit every wave u fire) i've combo'd this with cadre fireblades buff on a unit of 12 fire warriors, togheter with the reroll from commander ability it got quite disgusting, 72 shot with rerolls to hit; 5 strength with +1 to wound and 5++ can generate -1ap with through unitity, devastation. i found that the extra advance movemont is usefull as you can reroll the advance with ethereal and it makes it hard for the enemy to come close

[@WarpChargedGaming]

oh nice. I like that! Thanks for the insight and the view!

[@Aleksandrgrc]

Those firewarriors that die and usually before you move. Likely do not need buffs. .. its called throwing the good after the bad. Take dalyth kroot screen and then a first firewarrior rank with the cover saves to die. This sept wont need a fireblade. Maybe guardian drones and a ethereal (who can buff any sept) Using the custodes as an example. You want to actually fill these first screens enough to take up so much physical space that they cannot get in rapid fire range of drones protecting your larger suits at the back. The next rank can be tau for the support fire and will end up being your workhorse rank if you win the match. The back rank Borkan to keep the same weight of fire as their brothers. Replace dalyth with viorlaOr borkan with saceaOr tau with borkan. Or Add farsightThen viorla then a back one. Your point of focus fire and buff benifits are mitigated with sacea that performs a different roll and buffs certain units so they do not require kayunes. As well as dalyth thats meant to die. tau doing the stay in a firebase and mega buff isnt as flexable as dalyth for a forward damage dealing unit or even for a stormsurge that has limited mobility and cant greater good. Others tell me im wrong but im a big fan of the three kingdoms approach. I remember watching an imperial player talk about players taking to many tanks and not enough fodder. And he says take 120-150 infantry. Half fodder half slightly better. send one third forward each turn for three turns. I say we do the same. With the new faq tho i guess farsigt is actually a wave two sept now lol.

[@WarpChargedGaming]

Aleksandrgrc dig the thoughts man! Thanks for throwing down!

[@kidwithAnose]

Sick vid. Good info.

[@WarpChargedGaming]

Thanks bud! First try at talking tactics! It was fun but I already want to talk more about alternative thoughts lol! Like now I'm making list that don't take battalions or brigades at all... pretty unoriginal but my list for the tourney this weekend is 4 riptides, storm surge, shadowsun, ethereal, 4 units of 5 drones. 2 marker drones in each squad of 5. I think there is more tactical variety then this, but often my mind just goes to redundancy "spam".... did math last night on 10 broadsides in comparison to 4 riptides and stormsurge... while you more shots and the high yeilds have S7 and D3 damage... its 60 wounds vs 76 wounds, and all the extra support systems, + nova reactor versatility, + the movement is what brings me to the big robots... future tau list will experiment with trying to find a mix of a little of everything, some clyclic or flamer suits, stealth suits, firewarriors, mixed septs, probably no master of war trait, that kind of thing... but yeah having fun playing with my big robots and not having to work to hard or think to much.. Just all about the target priority and order of operations. Also Discovering little things, like when and when not to go 3++ reactor and instead boost guns.. when to kauyon that kind of thing... 3 Riptides w/ Heavy Burst, 2 w/ counterfire 1 with Advance targeting, all with target lock 1 Riptide w/ ion accelerator / counterfire / target lock. Idea is to use the command and control node on either ATS HBC Rip or the Ion one depending on what needs shot. And if I"m going to branched nova strat then put it on one of the two of them... only 5 CP so pretty much focused on just reroll to wound strat paired by Shadowsun, and maybe the one where a suit / vehicle fires at full profile.

[@kidwithAnose]

Warp Charged Gaming Sounds like a nasty list. I'm also a fan of big mechs and tend to gravitate towards low infantry count lists. The Forgeworld Yvahra is absolutely bonkers strong with the Borkan Sept trait. I field one or two of them and they put in mad work. If you haven't used them and you like playing bots they're insanely fun. Pair one or two with some quad fusion Coldstars and your playgroup will ask you to leave.

[@kidwithAnose]

Keep pumping out the good content. I'll be tuned in for more. (Y)

[@WarpChargedGaming]

Dude I love the concept, I totally don't even pay attention to it because I don't have the models and can't buy for a hot sec! Thanks for the kind words and and stuff man, glad to be talkin with ya!

[@Perserra]

Maybe I missed it, but I didn't catch your ideas about Crisis suits. The conventional wisdom seems to be that they are too inefficient unless kitted with triple Flamers or triple Cyclic Ion Blasters.

[@WarpChargedGaming]

Yeah thats where im at to bro! I was hoping to learn something tricky from a comment on vid! I cant make them appealing for cost any of my lists! We got the recon drone and stealth suits with homing beacon. But yeah not very viable competitively.

[@ajtaranto1989]

I use them successfully in a 4 suit squad, 3 w/ 2 cib and ats, 1 with 2 flamers and Drone Controller. Bring 3 marker drones and 2 shield drones. Manta in on a high value target hit them market lights and waste it. I’ve blown up Land raiders and then on Overwatch kill most if not all passengers. Tau sept with them absolutely. Edit: with 5 lights overcharge doesn’t happen even on 1s.

[@senseilewis3707]

Crisis suits are amazing!!! you can use them very effectively if you deep strike them. I like to use them in squads of 3. Two of them are are dual fushion blasters and one of them is given burst cannon and another weapon if you wish. I then give the leader a drone controller for that +1 to hit bonus for all firendly models within 6 inchs of it. in addition to this, in terms of drones up to you what you take. if you plan on using them aggressive take more shield drones rather than marker lights AS the new rules state when you deep strike it has to be 9inchs away from your enemy. You can use them offensvely in turn 2 onwards and place them as and when you need them or alternatively if you see someone charging your lines deep strike where you need them. I have had some fantastic success using these against all army types

[@pinhead61187]

thoughts on the yvahra/borkan combination?

[@WarpChargedGaming]

I think its solid and looks way fun. I don't have any or intent to get some so I have over looked it alot as something out of my grasp for the time. Its done well for sure with the right play style to support it.

[@pinhead61187]

picture this: first turn, nova boost and jump up. second turn, come down 9 inches away from a tank anywhere on the table, nova charge the weapons, unload 3d6 autohitting s6 ap-2 3 damage shots and 3d3 s10 ap-3 3 damage shots into the poor sucker. i wiped a land raider in one turn with just one yvahra. i routinely run two of them lol.

[@WarpChargedGaming]

Makes all the sense. That sounds wonderful of course. AND! they look badass doing it!

[@WarpChargedGaming]

The recent changes in thought is ive actually stopped taxing myself with firewarriors, taking min detaches and going 4 riptides and bunch of drones with shadowsun. Then playing between coldstars and a stormsurge. Love the big gundams. But -1 to hit armies can be very difficult so far. Or bunch of 3++ saves and what not.

[@rathstar]

With fire warriors I think you have to go big or go home, either 36+ or min amount. I think fire warriors are actually very good for 7pts, and wish I had more than the 38 I have. Combined with the kroot they can give great board presence and objective grabbing. I used the Stormsurge in the Index, but it seems to suck up a detachment, particularly now that the riptide is 2/3rds of its cost. Do you have any issues with the army being too static when calling Kauyon twice ? I'm currently using a 2nd Coldstar instead of Shadowsun. Kauyon or Mont'ka once (probably same time I use Control node stratagem) and then he can hunt vehicles and elite infantry (double the firepower and loads more speed than shadowsun). Have you tried moving forwards aggressively with the fire warrior line to get them within rapid fire range (where they shine) ? If the enemy stays back it gives you board control, if they move forwards they will easily be within 18" rapid fire range of the fire warriors (with a pulse accelerator drone). To help with drone drops (and the beta rule of 3) I've found the pathfinder drones are good, you get the pulse accelerator drone to help the fire warriors, 2 shield drones, and the awesome cheap recon drone (12pts to take 2 lascannon shots for a battlesuit !). I have less big suits than you (a Riptide and 2 Broadsides) but I'm planning on using rough the same amount of drones (14 wounds, from 10 shield drones and 2 recon drones) to protect the big suits, however what I use the rest of my drone slots on is 2 units of 7 gun drones to drop in with a Triple CIB & Drone Controller Commander (299pts, so comparable with a riptide) for 9 Str 8 -1ap D3 damage shots (hitting on 2+), and 56 Str 5 shots. If I'm being rushed they can drop turn 1 in my deployment zone (if playing beta rules) and if not they are great for creating a forward presence with drones for the Coldstar(s) to move forward towards.

[@WarpChargedGaming]

Nice man. I usually can have the firewarrirors in range for rapid pretty easy. I think the reason I don't like them at this point is against the wrong match up they get there faces melted. Particularly a custodes army. Those hurricane bolters I've seen 35 warriors get wasted 1st turn. After that its like well hmmmm... kroot I think are part of the equation to make certain things more viable by using that scout screen. I think the double kauyon is worth it over the 2nd coldstar. After 2 turns of kauyon and command and control node, you usually have a target in range for shadowsuns fusion shots after. Those 3++ shield drones are pretty cool as well. Its pretty crucial in itc championship missions that you kill more than your opponent to make up for the two turns of standing still and them scoring more objectives. I suppose it depends on the mission packets to determine if double kauyon is the move. For instance if your playing all end game scoring, hell yeah I'll sit still for 2 turns and block out the sun with shots. I can dig the gun drone move.. Haven't played with utilizing them yet with the new book. Also like the x3 CIB commander w/ drone controller move.. nice. Thanks for the insight bro! and of course checking out the video!

[@themirrow]

I don't think you got saviour protocols right dude. As soon as you're wounded you (not after you rolled to see if you armor saved the wound or invuln save) you may assign that to a drone (and has to be the same sept drone mind you) on a 2+, then he only gets a 5+ Feel no Pain. Drones, unfortunately, do not benefit from the ethereal 6+ FnP because they do not have the keyword. Not to mention in the latest FAQ they already stated that you can't double down on multiple FnP's in the case of shield drones.

[@WarpChargedGaming]

Totally agree with you... not sure where I might of made the mistake to say it different in this video.. I do know I played it wrong when the book first came out and I started playing my tau again. I thought I had corrected myself prior to this footage but could believe it if I had not.. Thanks for watching and your detailed comment. on same page.

[@sylenzos6869]

also worth noting on longstrike you said that he has 2x markerlights, but its +1 for those who are protected

[@drewburnard]

Fancy giving us a example 2k list you would recommend?

[@WarpChargedGaming]

Drew Burnard hmmm my core go to Shadowsun 3 riptides 3 high yield broadsides Shield drones and then flex around with points left to what ya feel like hehe. My quick answer for now. Thanks for checking it out!

[@NarvT86]

feel no pain doesnt stack anymore, you only get to use the better one. Marta strike , deep strike etc are only in turn 2.

[@WarpChargedGaming]

yep.. this was made prior to that faq. I used to take 4 riptides sometimers too :p not no more.

[@NarvT86]

@@WarpChargedGaming i know its was just a little update for the new viewer ;)

[@WarpChargedGaming]

Hell yeah. Respect. Thanks for watching!

[@pinhead61187]

also, im running a huge game (we use power level, so we settled on 225pl). im bringing a taunar. how should i best use him (sept, c&c node on him, etc)?

[@WarpChargedGaming]

I'd go Borkan. I'm not seeing anything in the forgeworld index that says it has access to the tau wargear so none of those choices apply. If you expect there to be alot of super heavies to be killing than I would probably go with the Nexus Missles for the 2D6 S10 Macro. and Tri Axis for arm guns. He's a battlesuite so I would bring a shit ton of drones, at least 15-20 to soak his wounds. Then I would shadowsun to kauyon shoot him with rerolls twice. Use the C&C node on him to reroll wounds for sure as well. That alone should be a devastating output. Maybe marker drones for even more wound soak when you run out of shield while getting your 5 markerlights in on something.

[@pinhead61187]

i considered the nexus missiles but the 24" minimum range makes me nervous. thanks, ill consider borkan.

[@saberhagen9423]

uh, you mentioned longstrike, you said if a target had 3 markerlights he would consider it 6, unless it was faq'ed right after you said that, its only plus 1 markerlights, so 3 would be 4.

[@WarpChargedGaming]

Saberhagen thanks man, totally correct... i don’t know how I read that differently. Glad to have the clarification. I am looking to humbly submit my thoughts for this kind of collaborative thought. Thanks!

[@WarpChargedGaming]

Saberhagen think I need to part 2 this anyways as my thoughts have been changing from this video quite a bit lately. Played a tournament today. Tomorrow will post the matches in time lapse to take a look at what happened. Did this all off the cusps early into my research as a first attempt to talk about codex thoughts on channel. Opinions ever changing.

[@saberhagen9423]

i only got into warhammer a few weeks ago, decided to start playing tau as first army... they dont make sense to me. they are SOLELY a shooting army yet they cannot effectively shoot without markerlighting and i understand why that is balance wise, but what i dont understand is that in comparison to other armies you cannot kill anywhere near as many units with tau as you can with say... deathguard. from the games ive played it seems to me that tau are only good at looking at one target and wiping it in one shooting phase, but then after that 1 target is gone you just have no more resources at your disposal to let you survive the enemies next turn. the only thing i can think of to help is tidewall drone ports with a cadre fireblade or firesight marksman driving it for the 2+/3+ bs on marker drones. cause pathfinders are trash...and expensive imo. but like i said, i started playing only recently but i have alot of time to just theory craft.

[@saberhagen9423]

broadsides/riptides/commanders/longstrike/hammerhead comps are the only ones i think are viable for actually wanting to win because they dont have to rely on markerlights. (i dont have a stormsurge so i have no opinions on them)

[@saberhagen9423]

unless the idea is to spread out markerlights and uplink markerlight stratagem them all, but then you run low and cant use focus fire

[@tvr4367]

can you low altitude drop in the first turn? Also drones don't benefit from ethereal's buffs, they aren't infantry or battlesuits

[@WarpChargedGaming]

You can, but now of course it has to be in your own deployment zone, so its gonna be a turn 2 or 3 likely. Yeah I must of said that ethereals could buff the drones in this vid... cuz others have said that too.. silly me.. I was pretty fresh to the tau book when making the vid, but had enough opinions to be dangerous I figured! Thanks for watching bud!

[@J.Panxer]

Your army is painted like the Sentinels from the XMen cartoon. Am I right? Also, I try to avoid Tau Sept. They're just very very powerful and very very basic B. They have all the character abilities and all characters. Everybody else gets squat. Load the Tau Det with Shadowsun and a Coldstar and you can re-roll hits and wounds for 3 turns! That's insane. Good, but formulaic. I like to mix Bor'kan and Vior'la Load the Bor'kan with XV88s and Riptides, and XV9s with and ethereal for the Vior'la.

[@joemorgan8644]

A commander fully equipped with cyclic ion blasters vs any unit that is markerlighted is a 2+ re rolling 1ns and ignoring cover is disgusting

[@masterblou2119]

Honestly, I would just prime everything white and start over.

[@WarpChargedGaming]

? Ya think my Tau are ugly!!!!!! Sad face. haha

[@masterblou2119]

I say that and most of my army is still on primer :P But I'm sure you could do better.. It looks like it just has a purple wash, which is sad because you have a really good collection, it would gain in value with a proper paint job.

[@masterblou2119]

Also the fruit salad thing is weird, you should do everything with the Stormsurge color Scheme. That Paint job looks neat.

[@WarpChargedGaming]

Stéphane Blouin oh i hear that! It certainly could be better. I unfortunately am a terrible painter! Some are cooler than others in this lot! I get jealous of the modern models too. But hey i love them all the same! They look better in person I swear. But my entire collection is painted by many many other people

[@masterblou2119]

You would be surprised how easy it is with the right techniques and the right color combination.Turquoise/Orange is fabulous, add some white to models you want to stand out a little like HQ/Elites or on helmets everywhere. Thinning your paint, knowing how to use washes is really important, brushing etc. those techniques are really easy to execute, only lining for highlights is hard to execute. Using the right tools too, like using a brush for fine details instead of a basecoating brush for lining. Also having a general idea of which techniques and colors and in which order to apply them helps a lot.

[@cyruslupercal9493]

I don't think double kauyon is that good. One is enough imo. Specialy because it only has 6" range and the units can't move.

[@crudfingers6403]

CHEEEEEEEESSSEEE GROMMIT

[@Kanjejou]

Yeah its annoying that other sept are worse not because their tenet is different, but because tau have so many good cheap characters and other don't... the only other good character may be aun'shi of Vior'la but other sept got no heroes.?! that sad. same for sept specific stratagem, none are bad but the T'au one is so powerfull its madness to play other sept... For the XV8 suits yeah they are overpriced, they don't have the stealth bonus rules, start more costly than single burst canon stealth for a 1toughness 1wound more(which with the new wounding roll mean nothing)...and if you begin to put more uns on them XV8 price skyrocket to ridiculosu height..around centurion devastaror level of price and they are considered overpriced, yet you get less firepower less range and -1 armor save -1 to hit for +4 pcs movement.