Was Coleco's Donkey Kong Port for Atari 2600 SABOTAGED? | Garry Kitchen Settles It!

[@SylveonTrapito]

It´s an honor to see an interview with Garry Kitchen. His work was an important part of my obsession with videogames since I was 8.

[@GenXGrownUp]

I'm right there with ya!

[@dennisdebro3148]

Coming from someone that reversed engineered the 2600 Donkey Kong. Garry did an AMAZING job with this cart! Not much room left in the 4K of space. The ramps themselves were amazing.

[@GenXGrownUp]

Hey there, Dennis. Thanks for stopping by to check this out. Garry is a legend. Hit me up via DM on X or email ([e-mail]) if you'd be interested in being interviewed.

[@glensmith4512]

As an 80s kid, I played the heck out of Atari 2600 Donkey Kong. For the record, I played the heck out of Atari 2600 Pac-Man too! I just took them as they were and enjoyed them.

[@GenXGrownUp]

Same here!

[@beatlefreak909]

Same here. For what they were they were fun to a 6-7 year old me.

[@SupremeNerd]

Same here. I was just happy about the fact that i no longer have to wait on somebody to finish at the game room before i got a chance to play

[@IceManTX69]

No matter how bad some 2600 games were, it can never erase the simple fact that we had video games........at HOME!

[@tedthrasher9433]

I didn’t have that reaction at all. I was thrilled when I got Donkey Kong for my 2600 and played it non stop. As a kid, I never expected the Atari version to look exactly like the arcade, but I also wouldn’t run out of quarters playing it! Loved the interview and btw, Keystone Kapers is still my all time favorite Atari game.

[@crimesforkibble6912]

It looked like mr tiny vs the gingerbread man it was ass

[@edwardmclaughlin719]

@@crimesforkibble6912 what?

[@TheWarmotor]

Damn, the story straight from the mouth of an industry legend, that's an amazing get, my friend. This will probably be referenced and credited in documentaries and books on the subject for the rest of video gaming history! You must be proud, you damn well should be.

[@GenXGrownUp]

Haha! Wouldn't that be something! 😁 It was a pleasure speaking with Garry and I'm quite happy with how the interview is being received - that's for sure. Thanks for watching and for the kind words.

[@demonsty]

i wouldnt be surprised if they use this in documentaries. your right. id be proud of this video genxgrownup!

[@welding_guy7524]

as an 80s kid and I think we all can agree, it really never mattered how crappy the games looked at home.. to this day I love 2600 donkey Kong .. push the button to start .. such a great interview .. just imagine what could have been if he had more time and a larger memory cart

[@Studeb]

There's something magical about those who were making games before I even played them, let alone started making them myself. The stories of Atari VCS development, especially the drug fueled Atari ones before Warner bought them, but also the third party like this.

[@ridiculous_gaming]

I assumed that the measley 4k was a massive limitation of the 2600 DK, but until now, I did not know that he had only 90 days to make the whole thing.

[@patsfan4life]

Typical of Atari back then ……. I remember the guy who made ET said he had even less time😊

[@ridiculous_gaming]

@@patsfan4life Yeah,weeks to make a game that cost 28 million dollars to licence.

[@sandal_thong8631]

That 90 day thing makes me think these shouldn't have been just one-programmer jobs. There should have been a music/sound FX guy/girl and a graphics artist to help with the screens and sprites. I think Atari outsourced the 5200 games and some 2600 games released in 1983, and the result was Moon Patrol and Jungle Hunt that looked and sounded great. The latter had some control issues, but that's my quibble. I think I read that one Atari programmer asked for graphics help from the art department that made the manuals and was ignored.

[@patsfan4life]

@@sandal_thong8631 agreed, it was crazy that a game they expected to sell millions of copies of was given to one programmer with a 3-month time limit

[@KurtWoloch]

@@sandal_thong8631 Well, for graphics there was also the box art... and on the 2600 games the mock-up screen shots on the boxes often differed drastically to the actual content. They knew about what the limits were and drew up some mockery in that style, but it often looked worse than the released product! I think I read somewhere that Coleco did give the programmers some graphics art, but if it was similar to that shown on the product, it might well have just been not used.

[@mtslyh]

Definitely one of my all time favorite 2600 games. What he was able to do with that system is frankly amazing. Thanks for the great interview! As a fellow old-timey programmer, I know what those days were like. There were so many new industries coming out that were centered around computers and programming. It wasn't just game development that suffered from the issue of not being able to find "experts" in technologies and systems that were "private" or just poorly documented. The great part of his story is that he didn't have someone there to hold is hand and tell him how to make it all work. He forged his own trail by taking the time to reverse-engineer a system on his own time. He took the initiative and it paid off!

[@JustWasted3HoursHere]

And the tools they had available to them were extremely minimal compared to today. In the early days they were literally using graph paper, calculators (to calculate execution speed - cycles) and tons of coffee and/or soda. The tools available today, even for developing Atari 2600 games!, would make those OG programmers drool. It's a wonder that any of them could produce anything worth playing at all considering how tedious and complex it was to do, especially on the notoriously limited VCS.

[@lorenmorgan1931]

Yeah as a kid I never cared that the graphics were "sub-par", all I cared about was that my 13" black and white rabbit ear TV was playing Donkey Kong. 5 year old me thought I owned an arcade in my bedroom and I was happy!

[@roberth1111]

Mine was pitfall my worst favorite was missile command

[@ValensBellator]

I’m so relieved someone finally got this interview and put that nonsensical and insulting rumor to bed. It’s clear people who think that’s a bad port don’t understand the limitations of that system and cartridge. He did an admirable job.

[@gswanson]

Really loved Keystone Kapers and Donkey Kong as a kid. I feel like at the time you knew Atari 2600 versions of arcade games are going to not be exactly like the arcade game, but mostly I was just happy to have the chance to play these games, because I was not really allowed to go to the arcade that often. I loved the Atari 2600 Donkey Kong and spent hours playing it. In the context of the time and the system it was on, it makes sense. Seeing the names of guys like Gary Kitchen, David Crane, and Steve Cartwright on the boxes of Activision Atari games inspired me to learn to make games myself, and led to me becoming a game designer and artist in the early 2000s (made a lot of Dragon Ball Z games for the GBA and a bunch of other stuff.) And I will tell you, even by that time things hadn't changed a bit. Most of the games I worked on we usually had around 6 months, and were beholden to a Christmas deadline and there were arguments about cart sizes. I'm sure developers today are still dealing with these types of constraints.

[@sandal_thong8631]

Good point about not going to arcades; the previous thread had a reply saying the player was 5. I was allowed to play arcade games in the arcade at the mall, Putt-Putt, restaurants and 7-Eleven when I was 10-13 in 1981-1984. Sometimes I think the Atari should have had a "give it to your little brother" campaign to introduce a newer system. Even its competitor didn't do that, instead creating a mini-Atari to plug into the ColecoVision, and Mattel wanted to do the same for its Intellivision. Just think of how many ColecoVision games they didn't sell by selling that Atari plug-in! Nobody knew how to get people to "upgrade" to a next generation system, especially when Atari sold another 5 million 2600 consoles in 1982 due to Pac-Man.

[@BGNerd1]

Great interview. Nice to hear the story straight from Garry. Also, I did not realize he created Space Jockey. I still have the game.

[@ACL84Fla]

Keystone Kapers is my 12 year old sons favorite Atari game. We just bought Circus Convoy as well and can't wait to try it out. Great interview.

[@GenXGrownUp]

Circus Convoy is ON FIRE! 🔥 If you want to hear more about Audacity Games and Circus Convoy, that's included in the full hour-long audio version of this interview linked in the description. Thanks for watching! 😁

[@kins749]

Absolute legend. I never bought the conspiracy theory, the VCS was simply not capable of anything more than Garry managed to achieve in that miniscule 4K.

[@nickfifteen]

Yeah like there is a modern version of Donkey Kong which is AMAZING to see play... but it requires 64k bank switching and took a couple years to develop... both of which were not available to Garry. For three months and 4k, he did an amazing job!!

[@sandal_thong8631]

I think Ms. Pac-Man in 1983 shows what Pac-Man could have been with 8K. Would that have sold another 2 million Pac-Man carts and kept consumer morale high? As we learned from this video, it was the time constraint as much as ROM limitation. Unless he had collaborators to help him on the graphics and sounds; carts were expected to be made through 1982 by one programmer. I think Atari outsourced games in 1983, and teams worked on Moon Patrol and Joust, which is why they look and sound so good.

[@RacerX-]

Wow! what a great part of the interview. Like you his games, including the Game Maker were a fond part of my memories from back then so what a great guy. Jon, you interview like an absolute Pro and I look forward to the full interview and future ones. Such great information. This is why GenXGrownUp is without a doubt the best games/Retro/GenX inspired channel on KZbin. Keep up the great work, GXG gang.

[@richchinnici6182]

What a privilege to interview one of the legends of video game development.

[@leoc.9341]

Awesome interview with one of the best 2600 game designers!! Not only did I play a lot of Garry's Donkey Kong port, Keystone Kapers was also one of my favorites.

[@carymcrawford]

Gary Kitchen's Game Makes for the C-64 was my first foray into making my own program. Thanks Gary.

[@marklechman2225]

I received Game Maker for Christmas for the Apple II back in ‘85 or ‘86 and I absolutely loved it. I still have it and the manual and even the included blank disk and mailer.👍 Thank you, Garry, great interview!

[@joshh8245]

My favorite version of Donkey Kong is the Atari 2600 version regardless of what others say about it being less than perfect. I grew up with that version and played a ton of it as a kid. I still play it today on my Atari Gamestation Pro. Haha.

[@GenXGrownUp]

I love it, too!

[@OptimusNiaa]

I loved the 2600 version also!

[@ALTDOK667]

Yeah, I loved it, too. I still wished, at the time, that I had a ColecoVision, lol.

[@FigureFarter]

@@ALTDOK667My dad had the ColecoVision. The only story i know from him so far is that he doesn't like the phone-shaped controller nowadays

[@jasonbrown4239]

Same here my first version I had

[@waynerowlinson6177]

As a kid, I bought a Coleco Gemini (Atari 2600 clone) that came with Donkey Kong and Mouse Trap. It took every penny I had, and a few dollars "borrowed" from my parents to get, so there were no games in my immediate future. I played the heck out of those two game and loved Donkey Kong. I don't recall if I even knew there was a missing fourth level. The Gemini died a fairly early death.... The games still live on, and have a place of honor in my collection.

[@jaysherman2615]

I always heard the rumor that the Atari port of Donkey Kong was sabotaged, but I am actually really happy to hear that was nothing more than a rumor. To hear the time contraint and the ROM limitation I am now really impressed that the port ended up as good as it was. So hats off to Mr. Kitchen who proved he was a master class programmer that deserves to be in the same class as Howard Scott Warshaw.

[@jeremiahthomas8140]

It was an Absolutely amazing interview! Now time to go listen to the whole interview.

[@GenXGrownUp]

I hope it was worth the wait. Thanks for your enthusiasm, Jeremiah!

[@retro_reflections]

The thought of a 90 day dev cycle with those limitations is absolutely terrifying, especially when it comes with the added pressure of a smash-hit arcade licence - Mr. Kitchen worked wonders to produce what was actually released, let alone anything more!

[@sandal_thong8631]

Imagine if you had 3-5 days to make Chase the Chuckwagon! I think I would have called in sick to give me a few more days. I don't feel sorry for all the kids who drank a lot of Kool-Aid to get proof-of-purchases to send away for Kool-Aid Man, but I do for all the kids that ate dog food to send away for Chase the Chuckwagon.

[@bb-gc2tx]

so true what garry said about donkey kong being out for xmas in 1982.i got it for xmas and every kid on my block who had atari got it as well

[@LotoTheHero]

What a very cool guy! Honestly, it is a good port given the constraints. I think a lot of people didn't understand the time crunch and the space restrictions these guys were under. David Crane was a wizard back in the day too, it'd be awesome if you were able to get him on sometime!

[@FUGP72]

It's funny how despite the limitations, Atari's Donkey Kong was more faithful to the arcade in terms of how many floors there were in the building. It always looked REALLY awkward on the ColecoVision to be going to the right on the top floor.

[@PCKid32]

Wow. Almost held my breath the whole time. Kudos to you for getting him on. It always amazes me how unassuming these early programmers are. Reverse engineering a complete system from scratch and then the binary code in the roms. Please get Crane on as well.

[@AIex_Kidd]

I still remember the first time I booted K. Kapers on the colecovision in 1985... my jaw dropped just listening to that intro tune, and played it to death. Also remember reading his name every time and think 'who is this guy?' but I have to admit I wondered the same about Crane on pitfall and Rolfe on Beamrider lol Thank you Garry, you entertained me for a long time.

[@FishDS9]

Thank you Gary for doing the interview and for programming so many incredible games from my youth! Thank you Jon for conducting this interview with Gary and for settling the debate. Well done sir.

[@classicgamer1968]

Great interview. Thanks Garry for helping make my childhood and for your hard work and contributions to the early video game industry - some of the best times of my life. I still play Atari 2600 Donkey Kong to this day and will always appreciate it.

[@SwainyAtRetroAsylum]

Just hearing the sound effects of the Atari 2600 versions of Pac-Man & Donkey Kong send me right back. Top stuff!

[@Jason_Quinn]

bip bip bip bip bip--boodle-ee-dee-doo

[@DeedleTech]

That was an excellent interview and very informative on what was going on with that port of DK. And good to squash the rumors. And thank you for letting your guest talk. With so many "interviews" that happen elsewhere, the host doesn't shut up and (I feel) interjects too much. But you asked the right questions, kept him comfortable and he delivered on the answers! Thank you again. Good stuff!

[@ArcadeDude44]

Thank you so much, Jon, for this amazimg interview, with this industry legend! I, too enjoyed my 2600 version of DK, before i was able to get a ColecoVision! People argue that what's possible today, with modern techniques such as bank-switching, and using emulators to test, proves games such as this and PacMan were sabotaged, on purpose. None of these tools were available, back in the early 80's. With that fact, plus the extremely strict time constraints, and other limitations these early programmers had placed upon them, it's amazing that these games were as fun and playable as they were! Remeber, back then, it was 1, maybe 2 if you were lucky (or your wife was a programmer as well) programmer making these games, from scratch! The teams of literally hundreds of people, along with typical lead times of 2+ years are now the norm. And, 99% of the time, there is a day-one patch, for the games! Back in the 80's, you had 1 shot, and once those proms were burnt, it was done.

[@sandal_thong8631]

Yeah, I think the idea of 1 programmer doing all the work outlived its usefulness in 1982. They should have had a person helping multiple games with sound and music, and another doing graphic design for backgrounds, sprites, etc. I read Atari outsourced some games for 1983, including Moon Patrol and Jungle Hunt. So maybe they made them as a team to look good, sound good and play well?

[@WowplayerMe]

Props to Mr. Kitchen, he's a legend & an industry ICON! I had DK & Space Jockey for the 2600. 2 of my favorite games on the platform. I never thought DK was a crippled port. In fact, it's on my top 10 list of all time well done ports for the system. Also as I watch this video, I'm currently using Garry's GameMaker to develop a new game for the C64. So, yeah it's true people like me are still absolutely enjoying & reaping the benefits of his work many decades later. If that doesn't cement his timeless legacy, I don't know what does. Keep on truckin Garry. We love you!!

[@jameshakola3603]

Thanks for asking Garry that question! The answer was always clear, but I have always hated that conspiracy theory, it's absolutely demeaning to the impressive work he did on the game, with just 4K and 90 days! Plus it would have been utterly foolish to intentionally hobble the Atari port. Thanks to the 2600's massive install base, it was able to sell twice as many copies as every Colecovision cartridge combined (4 million 2600 DKs vs > 2 million total CV carts). Which means that out of the 10 million 2600s sold, nearly 1 in 2 owners bought Coleco Donkey Kong

[@sandal_thong8631]

I think they had sold 10 million consoles before Pac-Man and 5 million more by the end of 1982, with a few million more after that, making 15 million+. The question is whether they produced more Pac-Man carts than the 8 million sold. I suspect they might have since they bundled some with consoles in 1983 (1 million+?), and didn't print new catalogs to include new games sold in the second half of 1982, making me think they took them out of unsold Pac-Man boxes and put in others, rather than pay to print new ones. And does the 4 million number for E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial sales, result from after games were returned to stores? So if it was good, they might have sold 5-6 million? Or it doesn't include returns, so they only sold 2-3 million?

[@spacepuppy720]

Wow. Never thought we'd ever get an explanation for that. Now I've gained a deeper appreciation for the 2600 port of DK.

[@jackeldogo3952]

It wasn't a bad port especially compared to other 2600 games at the time. We spent a lot of time playing it, I think my brothers and I spent the whole weekend (with sleeping between turns) playing that game when we first got it. The only thing I was disappointed about was the lack of the elevator and conveyer levels. Even just the elevator level would have been nice.

[@Offramp-z7p]

And to be fair, most versions are missing the conveyor level(NES, Colecovision, and Atari 7800 versions). Intellivision version went with the same 2 levels as the 2600.

[@AlligatorArms]

Great interview. Growing up, I was a 2600 Jr. owner who previously had a Vic 20 which had much more extensive versions of Pac Man and Donkey Kong. Naturally, I had more of an appreciation for the late era 2600 library while the pre-crash library seemed much more primitive. While the later games were objectively better, I have a lot more respect for the early games today, now that I know more about the limitations they had, the hoops they had to jump through, and the fact that the whole industry was basically learning on the fly. Really set the foundation for what would come later. The comparison with the flickering is a great example. 8-year old me probably just thought I needed a better converter box. Love Pressure Cooker too. Never owned it, or heard of it growing up, but once emulation became a thing, I played it out of curiosity & couldn’t put it down. That and Montezuma are probably the two very best 21st century 2600 discoveries that I made around that time.

[@mistermac56]

Great interview. I never bought into the "conspiracy" at all. Even if Kitchen had 8K to work with, there would be people still complaining. He did what he was contracted to do by Coleco and get paid for it. The fact that he only had 90 days and 4K to work with is pretty astounding.

[@MrDirkles]

In 1980 something the school bully sat next to me on the coach and said " have you got an atari ?" "Yeh" I said. He then offered me a donkey Kong cartridge and said I could have it. To this day I'm still waiting for him to call in the favour

[@glennshoemake4200]

My parents bought this for me when it first came out and I was a happy kid playing Donkey Kong at home despite the limitations.

[@gstcomputing65]

I don't care what people say about the quality of the 2600 port; I sought out that game and it was one of the happiest days of my life when I finally got it. I played it seemingly millions of times until I got my Colecovision.

[@CP-ih6zq]

Great video! When you interview these wonderful people please thank them for the many years of kids like me playing and bringing families closer. My dad and I shared so many great moments with the Atari. This is also a reason why I loved pac man despite all the hate. It was the one game my mom would play and we played together she knew patterns and would write down high scores. It is easy for people to look back at these games now and say they were not great but as a young kid growing up with this these games they will always be amazing to me.

[@miked4377]

I remember thinking this is still a cool game even though it was cut down due to memory ect restraints....still very playable....great interview with Mr kitchen....he set it straight....very cool...

[@chrissawyer1484]

I still consider Wildfire to be one of the best electronic pinball games ever made. Didn't realize Mr. Kitchen made it.

[@artofmana]

Wow! What an interview and well edited, too! Seems like a great guy and very fun to talk with. I’ve been lurking in the shadows on your stuff for a bit and had to drop a few bucks of encouragement for you to continue what you’re up to!

[@GenXGrownUp]

Thanks for the kind words and your generosity. Consider me encouraged! 😁

[@phantomharlock999]

Not only did Coleco sell through all those DK 2600 carts but Atari later bought the port and rereleased it in the late 80s and they sold a bunch more.

[@Paul-qg3iw]

Thank you for this interview with the brilliant Gary Kitchen - as a Gen Xers who loves retro video games this brings a lot of joy ....hello from London Eng.

[@GenXGrownUp]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@RandyWaage]

This guy is a legend for those of us who grew up playing Atari 2600/videogames. Donkey Kong while not perfect on the Atari 2600 was still fun to play. A friend had Space Jockey and that was a very fun game too. Plus, Keystone Kapers is probably one of my top 10 favorites games. It looks and plays amazing on the Atari VCS. Thanks for video Jon. Great stuff.

[@mikemonk4375]

Great interview, always good to hear from an Activision guy. I wasn’t aware he did work for Parker Brothers. Honestly, the Atari port of DK was the only one I could get past the barrel screen on.

[@planetjacker2k525]

Still have my Wildfire pinball. I spent so much time playing it in the back seat on family car trips. Wonderful to see it pop up in your video.

[@GenXGrownUp]

Indeed. And not the first time, either! kzbin.info/www/bejne/raWcZWCjj7CYlac

[@neugey]

I went straight to the full audio and was not disappointed. The story about Garry spending 6 months reverse engineering, and the 72-hour install ... I'm full of gratitude, will never complain again!

[@joeboo8626]

Thank you, Mr. Kitchen! Keystone Kapers is my favorite Atari game of all time and Donkey Kong was the first videogame I ever purchased (of 1000+ games). I loved the conversion even though it is limited. Many years ago I read the 2600 version was sabotaged to make the colecovision shine and took it as fact, and now don't remember where I read this (random youtube video). Thanks for sharing the story and making great games for my childhood.

[@GenXGrownUp]

Mine too!

[@sandal_thong8631]

I didn't believe it, especially when I got sales figures for the Atari 2600 console (10 million beginning 1982, 15 million at end of 1982), 2 million ColecoVisions, and 4 million Donkey Kong 2600 carts, making it the 3rd best-selling game for Atari 2600.

[@tomsuzyinfluencerinfj2712]

Garry Kitchen, thank you very much. I played Donkey Kong on my 2600 at least a year and I loved it. Never been to arcades, so for me D.K. was perfect!

[@WagnersTechTalk]

Awesome interview Jon, really enjoyed it! I owned this cart back in the day and still have it. I played it for many many hours 😎 So great to hear it straight from Mr. Kitchen what limitations he was up against. IMO, amazing job with only 4K and 3 months.

[@joeg4707]

Great interview. Garry Kitchen is one of the legends. I hope you can get the interview with David Crane. I have all of Garry's Atari 2600 games, Pressure Cooker and Keystone Kapers are two of my favorites. I was lucky enough to get the No. 1 cart sold of Circus Convoy.

[@davidcarlson2481]

Such a great interview! I’ve also grown up with this game and the ColecoVision version as well. I have many fond memories with friends and family playing on those systems and remember the rumors about the quality of 2600 DK vs CV DK. I’m so glad to hear it’s not true. It seems that the quality of several other big name titles suffered for similar time-constraint reasons. I hope you interview David Crane soon!

[@Emceemur]

This was good work. I always remembered Garry from Battletank because his name was on it. But I'll admit I didn't know what all else he worked on.

[@jeremyjones9256]

I’ve always wondered if Mr. Kitchen had just ran of time or hit the wall of what a 2600 could do. So glad to hear he wanted to do the other levels. Wish Nintendo would ask him to “finish” it but they hate the emulator market. GREAT interview!!!

[@GenXGrownUp]

Thanks for watching, Jeremy! 😁

[@VortexArcade]

I was not expecting this follow up after the DK video, what an awesome idea and great video!

[@EarmonkeyMusic]

Awesome. Great questions Jon. Take him up on the David Crane thing! 😂😂

[@JumboJosh-lv3mo]

Honestly, sometimes I perfer the home ports over the arcade. This is because arcades were designed to gobble your quarters faster than pac-man gobbles dots, but the home had more balanced difficulty, more modes to mess around with, along with some quirks. (Like how the scorpion never turns the mushrooms into poison ones, or removing the annoying planes in missile command.)

[@classicgamer1968]

I've always felt that way too. The home video ports were just more playable and enjoyable. The graphics and sound quality of the home ports were always inferior to the arcade games but I appreciated the fact that most of the home ports had selectable skill level options and I could play the game for a good period of time and not lose all of my lives after a few minutes of play time.

[@sandal_thong8631]

There definitely was a different market and outlook for arcade games that wanted you to fail after a certain time, but still like it enough to come back and play some more. Home games needed to be good enough so you wouldn't return it (like E.T.). So ideally, having a longer play experience was better. I wondered whether some kids were buying games at Zaires, playing them and then returning them for another because there were a lot of 3rd-party Atari games in the bargain bin that had been opened and resealed with tape. I got Arcade Classics for Playstation, and though I think there were multiple-lives settings for some games that weren't at the arcade, some games were really hard to play well! After destroying Sinistar, for instance, the second round was impossible.

[@JustMe99999]

The video game market is big, but it's not "multi-trillion" -- it's about $242 billion as of last year. It's expected to get to $500 billion by 2030. Still, a huge number. Awesome interview! I never believed the silly rumor (it makes no sense - they wanted to capitalize on the popularity of Donkey Kong as much as they could) but it's nice to have it finally confirmed as not true.

[@GenXGrownUp]

Thanks for the correction. It was a bit of hyperbole on my part.

[@jasonmann3775]

Great stuff! Thanks for bringing to us. I recently discovered Pressure Cooker and got a old cart for my 2600+ along with Keystone Kapers. Garry Kitchen was one of the best. I remember getting Donkey Kong back in 82 at 12 years old. When I saw Donkey Kong on Colecovison at Macys around Christmas, it was all over. Beginning of the end for my Atari 2600.

[@thereallantesh]

What a fantastic guy. It was great to hear the real story right from Garry. This is without a doubt one of your best videos to date. I'd love to see more interviews like this.

[@GenXGrownUp]

Glad you enjoyed it. Thank you for watching! 😁

[@frankbettis4865]

I'm noticing Gary's home decor, the Simpsons figures on the couch. Homer, Lisa, Bart. Cool man cool.

[@MondoMiami]

If it were 1994.

[@Jimmy.Williams]

Awesome interview, thanks! I remember the kid's house and even tv location and setup to this day when I first played the 2600 version of Donkey Kong and had the exact same reaction as you and most other kids...oh man, those were some magic and exciting times, lol. Incredible that he only had 90 days to do the entire thing by himself, unreal.

[@sandal_thong8631]

Reaction probably had to do with age and ability to play the arcade game. Little kids: it's really good. Older kids: it looks disappointing. But if you owned it, you most likely played it to death, whatever age, just as one played Atari Pac-Man for hours on end. I don't think kids and parents returned it to the store, like E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial.

[@RCfromtheNYC]

Wow...to have a legend on this channel is something apecial! In regards to the game, Mr. Kitchen did the best he could with the tech available at the time.

[@ButterSpider3]

What an awesome guy! So personable. This was a great interview. You lead it so well. 👍🏻

[@RobsRetroGaming]

Great intertview!!! When I first played DK on the 2600 when it first came out, TBH, I really wasn't that disappointed. I was intrigued by it, actally. From all the games that came before this, it was pretty much what I expected, and was very happy with it.

[@briansellers7673]

Great interview! I don't know why it took me so long to finish watching it, but it was great. I said the same thing in the comments of the Friday Plays video: They didn't have to tank the Atari version because the Coleco Vision was far superior.

[@GenXGrownUp]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@rager1969]

Great interview. It should be noted that David Crane and the other three programmers that founded Activision did not have to backward engineer the Atari VCS/2600. They worked for Atari and left because they weren't getting name recognition or a share of the success of their VCS/2600 games (theirs were the most successful games Atari released).

[@GenXGrownUp]

Yep. Perhaps you clicked away early, but Garry talks about this specifically in this interview. Also, much more on the topic of Activision in the full hour-long cut on our podcast feed.

[@sandal_thong8631]

Even after watching some videos on the subject, I'm still unclear on what 3rd-party companies had to do, in order to prove they weren't using proprietary Atari information to make games for it. I think there was something about an Activision settlement that opened it up for everyone; they licensed something from Atari.

[@zerobyte802]

Game Maker was fantastic for me. At a time when my stack of copied floppies measured a foot thick, my copy of Game Maker was legitimately purchased. I had the drawbridge portion of Dragonfire working, with the archer. I just never could figure out how to do all of those treasures on-screen at once.

[@pcachu]

Back when I was a kid, I had less than no concept of the phenomenal code gymnastics that had to be performed to make the 2600 do anything whatsoever. The likes of Kitchen, Crane, Cartwright and the rest made the impossible happen and made it look easy. The mere existence of something even vaguely resembling Donkey Kong on the platform is nothing short of astounding.

[@Tricob1974]

U.S. Games didn't know much about game producing, but they always shined when it came to hiring competent programmers. Every one of their releases had at least eight sprites on the screen, yet didn't have any flickering anywhere. Small wonder Kitchen had such a bright future ahead of himself. But that production deadline for 2600 Donkey Kong... Good god!

[@tonysimek]

Kudo's to Garry for the work he did. We played the heck out of this game, and it made a few days better back then.

[@ctbinary42]

Great interview. I'll be listening to this tonight. Well, after 1980snow 🤣 I absolutely love this type of history of video games from the ones who were there. He really is a treasure

[@johnshen3582]

I had the greatest opportunity to work with Garry on NES titles like the Simpsons. Great memories!

[@erickent3557]

Wow, 90 days?! Ouch. Yeah, without more time, a bigger cartridge is meaningless.... Great Interview, Jon!!

[@sandal_thong8631]

Unless you built it as a team, or had helpers. I think Atari games for 1983 were the first ones outsourced and may have used a team to do programming, graphics, sound FX and music.

[@creepingnet]

I remember when that myth about 2600 DK started. In the 1990s I recall a "Blue Sky Rangers" (INTV Dev Team) website where someone said Mattel made the M-network games deliberatley inferior. And like the whole "E.T. is the worst game ever" myth, the DK myth was perpetuated ad nauseum since then.

[@sandal_thong8631]

I think Mattel changed the names so they wouldn't adversely affect the Intellivision games. But they were pretty good, though lacking in 1-player options and the sports games came out the same year as Realsports titles, which no doubt depressed sales. I don't think any sold over 1 million, but might have done comparable to what they did for the Intellivision, which I'm told didn't have any 1 million sellers. I'd like to ask if he could please find out how they made Lock 'n' Chase and Dark Cavern for the Atari without flicker. Some games like Mouse Trap had only 3 enemies, others like Berzerk didn't put the enemies on the same row, and Ms. Pac-Man only had flicker trouble when the ghosts were on the same row. I think Wizard of Wor had more than 4 enemies so its flicker must have been tremendous, like too much on the same screen in Superman or Adventure.

[@rbus]

These Atari 2600 developers are true rocket scientists and Donkey Kong just looks to me like an abnormally complicated game to program to fit in an extremely RAM limited machine without a frame buffer, particularly that backdrop with the sloping platforms. In a strange way, coding Atari 2600 games today is loads of fun with modern IDEs like VS Code having an extension that includes a built in emulator/debugger for testing Atari 2600 while you code.

[@CineG]

I was not disappointed with the graphics nor the game play at the time. My immature mind realized there were limitations to be had between the arcade and a home edition running off your television. I do share the feeling of "crestfallen" because of its 2 screens making it feel it was a demo or otherwise incomplete. The word at school was "It didn't have the pie level!" Still, before I understood that there would be a "next generation" console, bringing home an arcade game was special.

[@Tinmancr1]

Great interview, Gary Kitchen has brought some great games to the world, strange they often have more than their share of controversy. Not gonna lie I always loved Space Jockey I have a cart the Vid Tek version.

[@jjdigitalvideosolutionsllc5343]

I still enjoy this game. We did make fun of the lo-res donkey kong and were disappointed with just two levels, but still enjoyed the game. It was very playable. Other than DK, the graphics were pretty good.

[@drno-xc1yt]

What a great interview. The Atari 2600 Donkey Kong conspiracy theory is fun, but I never really believed it. It was clear Coleco wanted the game done right now this second (8:56 - can you imagine making a game in 90 days?) and didn't want to spend any money (limiting the game to a 4K cartridge).

[@sandal_thong8631]

If they manufactured 4 million and sold 4 million, then it succeeded. Pac-Man sold 8 million, Space Invaders sold 6 million. The question is whether Atari produced more than the 8 million Pac-Man carts sold and had to bundle the extras in 1983 with the console to get rid of them, or throw them away. The only problem is disappointment (consumer dissatisfaction). Little kids loved it, older kids had mixed feelings. The Video Game Crash was based on 3 things IMHO: loss of investor confidence first (because Atari wasn't increasing its profits as much as forecast), then loss of retailer confidence (since they couldn't move games without discounting), and finally loss of buyer confidence after paying full price for disappointing titles.

[@antonnym214]

For the limitations of the 2600, I would say Garry did a stellar job. Thank you, Garry for all your efforts.

[@GarrettCRW]

It’s the 90 day deadline on the 2600 version of Donkey Kong that shows just how miraculous the port was. I’m sure that this time factor was similar on the Intellivision port, which is where I first heard the accusation about Coleco’s business practices (via the old Blue Sky Rangers website).

[@MegaDeth859]

What a legend! Thanks for this interview. Wish the whole thing could've been on KZbin

[@sandal_thong8631]

He was correct. Donkey Kong was the must-have game of Christmas 1982, and it sold 4 million, making it the third best cart for Atari. After learning that the Atari hardware encourages screens that are mirrors or repeats (like Combat, Adventure, etc.), the step-ups or ramp for Donkey Kong's first level looks really good. Other games don't have that. I don't think Coleco had any other 2600 game that sold over 1 million. Before the home video version, people played the arcade game and the Coleco Tabletop Arcade handheld. Bundling Donkey Kong with ColecoVision was a master-stroke. It helped sell 2 million consoles. What did Atari bundle with the 5200 that year? Super Breakout, a pong-like game. And nearly all the games at launch were already out for the 2600, which was climbing to 15 million sales mainly due to Pac-Man, just as Space Invaders sold millions of consoles in 1980. Playing Donkey Kong on the 2600 at a friend's home was great fun for that hour, but I didn't rush out and buy it. When I finally got it on the cheap years later, I found it kind of repetitive and boring. I did buy and play Atari Pac-Man for hours in 1982. Now it's boring. It had the same problem: 4K ROM. It also used some memory to hold two players' progress. They also didn't solve the flicker and the map doesn't look right - they could have turned it on its side. The question or urban legend is whether Atari produced over a million more Pac-Man carts than the 8 million they sold. If they produced 10 million, that meant 2 million went to waste. They didn't update their catalogs to show games coming out in late 1982, which makes me think they pulled and reused them from unsold Pac-Man boxes. Or didn't feel the need if people were subscribed to Atari Age. In 1983 Atari came out with Ms. Pac-Man on an 8K ROM, I believe that solved the problems, and it was a really good port. It sold 2 million, probably the best-seller of 1983 after Centipede, and showed what Pac-Man could have been. I think Coleco released Donkey Kong, Jr. that year, which I bought a few years later on the red label, not realizing it was a Coleco cart that Atari acquired. The game had some problems (squeaky-squeaky-squeaky) and really fast enemies, which made it impossible for me to advance any further from a certain point, so it wasn't fun after that. Why couldn't that be better, like Ms. Pac-Man?

[@razorfett147]

Great interview. Garry hammered out some of my childhood favorites back in the early 80s. Unfortunately my family never snagged a copy of DK. My first home port copy that i owned was the Atari 7800 version. I didnt get a chance to play the 2600 port til some yrs later, but i was impressed by how well it translated on the old hardware. Good stuff

[@xman7337]

Great interview! I looked up to these guys growing up playing their games!

[@GenXGrownUp]

Thanks. You & me both! 😁 And now, speaking to them directly? Amazing experience.

[@Brazbit]

There are two games I have to play every-time I turn on a 2600, Pac-Man and Donkey Kong. They instantly put me in the correct mindset for the system and never fail to put a smile on my face. There may be "better" ports, or at least more accurate ports and official versions of the arcade ROMSs are available on modern systems, but these are unique gems that capture the moment in time better than all of the other options and are unique unto themselves. This was a time when no port was perfect and almost every system had its own shortcomings on conversions making a myriad of unique takes on the arcade games we loved. We got a variety of ways of experiencing each game, what is not to like about that?

[@dereketnyre7156]

I played lots of Donkey Kong on the 2600 back in the day on a console black and white TV. Few years later I obtained Donkey Kong cartridge for my Vic-20 - that was also a great version.

[@adm712]

Great interview! To this day I get a kick out of those Coleco boxes with the arcade cabinets that say "plays like the real arcade game". Coleco did a brilliant job at marketing. In the pre internet 1982 era walking in a Toys R Us and seeing those boxes, what would a 10 year old kid think?

[@sandal_thong8631]

But other than Donkey Kong, I don't think any sold over 1 million copies. Activision, Imagic and Parker Bros. had more top sellers.

[@therealfodder]

Wow! Awesome interview - first of many I hope. I loved the DK port back in the day. I'd only briefly seen the arcade version so I only knew the first screen anyway (in the UK arcades were pretty much only found in seaside towns with the occasional cabinet appearing in your local fish and chip shop!). Apart from the - ahem - 'inventive' way of doing Mario's moustache I thought it looked and played great. Especially when compared to Coleco's VCS Zaxxon port...

[@GenXGrownUp]

Thanks! Not the first, though. Check back in our catalog for interviews with Howard Scott Warshaw, Warren Davis, Gil Gerard, and MORE!

[@machineofadream]

Is this really the first time anyone managed to get this story out of Garry Kitchen? Well it's about time, if so! The main contribution Garry made to my childhood is the underrated Destination Earthstar on the NES. I just didn't have a 2600 or Commodore 64.

[@nickfifteen]

I LOVE this interview, because it confirms my own hypothesis on the "conspiracy theory". Like, the conspiracy theory is _patently false_ by claiming that anyone-Garry or otherwise-*deliberately* schemed to sabotaged the game in order to sell more Colecovisions... but I always felt there was still a _small_ grain of truth underneath all the nonsense, in that there was still some kind of conscious decision made to release Donkey Kong VCS looking the way it did. I mean, it never made complete sense to me that anyone at COLECO woke up one day and chose "SABOTAGE", but at the same time, clearly the COLECO execs knew what they were doing by giving Garry half the development time and ROM space he asked for. But even if that was a choice, it was one made not for malicious purposes, but the pragmatic realities of doing business. It sounds like it was a choice between a rushed game that "looked sabotaged" yet sold millions over Christmas, versus a game that "looked great" but sold thousands after the season. The execs had good reasons to chose the former, and frankly, I would've done the same. So yeah, I feel this interview made things even clearer than other reports I've read about it... like, Garry plainly states that while everything that happened with Coleco Donkey Kong was still a choice, they were more about maximizing profitability within a short window of opportunity versus _deliberately_ making a game worse than it should've been. So if there was any doubt left to the conspiracy theory, I think that perfectly clarifies things. Thanks John and Garry for your time! Keep it up!!

[@sandal_thong8631]

Yeah, it didn't make sense to me either. Even the whole thing about M-Network was for Mattel to find a way to make some money off their games, when only 2-3 million Intellivisions would be sold, while there were 10 million Atari 2600s sold by the start of 1982. And in 1983, everybody was making ports to all the systems and computers, just to try to sell a few more games and make some money. And that includes Atari, under AtariSoft line: they didn't just want to keep their games exclusives to their own computers and consoles; they recognized software was different from hardware.

[@MarquisDeSang]

I have that game rom inside my Harmony cart for my 2600+ (I can only put 1 rom at a time and this one has been on the cart for 3 monts), never get tired of this game.

[@urbanknish]

This was great! Thank you both for doing the interview.

[@GenXGrownUp]

Our pleasure!