Was Rhaenyra's Plan For Jace & Helaena's Betrothal A Solution, Or A Hostage Situation?

[@katiemartin6991]

"Rhaenyra made many mistakes" *shows picture of her sons* W H E E Z E

[@HillsAliveYT]

😂 LMFAO I did not notice that and it was not intentional... but also from a factual standpoint it's not exactly incorrect.

[@thedemonhater7748]

Hey, she had to get those heirs from somewhere 💀

[@JayMorayEel]

Those doomed boys deserve to have born far away from asoiaf like many born in the asoiaf verse

[@strikeforcealpha9343]

Whatttt there's nothing wrong with being smart AND strong ;)

[@yusufraage8554]

If anyone ever deserved the iron throne its Jacaerys Targaryen and to Rheanyera he was not a mistake and his dead will cause her to go mad.

[@jonathanthomas4327]

Honestly it's becoming increasingly clear that the dance was largely inevitable one Viserys remarried and refused to change his mind about his heir. Aegon himself said that he had roughly two decades to change his mind and did not. It is starting to seem that there is a limit to how many Targaryens can be active at the same time. Too few and the house is vulnerable to extinction, but too many and you get armed conflict. I will say it is easy to forget that no matter how much you might like a character, in this setting, bastardy is serious business and not so easily overlooked. It does suck that the children have to bear the burden of their parents indiscretions, but that is ASOIAF.

[@vit968]

Obviously. What did Viserys expect by remarrying and siring male heirs and still naming a female as heir apparent in a society where sons and nephews and cousins inherit before daughters and illegitimates?

[@counterspellgoon6854]

there should never had been more then three dragon riders at any given time. the precedent was set during Aegon's conquest 3 dragon riders no more no less.

[@phosphoros3050]

The only 2 times that House Targaryen fell into internal war (asidd from Maegor) were the Dance & the Blackfyre conflicts. Both of which had to do with conflicts of succession. I'm more surprised that no stable cadet branches ever emerged aside from the legitimized Blackfyres

[@kauswekazilimani3736]

@@vit968 He even named the male Aegon.

[@saymyname2417]

@@phosphoros3050 - The Baratheons?!

[@normtrooper4392]

Finally someone had the guts to say it. That marriage was not the convenient fix everyone seems to think it is. Nothing is ever that simple in this franchise

[@wolfsbanealphas617]

They just look good aesthetically

[@hark1007]

@@wolfsbanealphas617 that is very true. And they are genuinly decent people who may well have made each other happy but alas politics

[@LizbetNene]

Yes, allowing her daughter to be married to someone whose claim to the throne would be contested by her sons would be a pants-on-head stupid move for Alicent. No-one who has a problem with Jacerys illegitimacy would be at all mollified by his being married to Helaena, and all it would do would be to put her children on opposite sides of the coming conflict.

[@lc4822]

That's not in the books only the show. Jace was betrothed already as a toddler. I assume in the show Rhaenyra was attempting to molify the Hightowers' desire for their blood on the throne, hoping they would trade their ambitions for Aegon with a son of Helaena.

[@BadBitchesonly.]

@@lc4822 Naur you’re still missing the point

[@lc4822]

@@BadBitchesonly. not really just making a comment about what I intention I imagine the showrunners were giving her in making the flimsy request.

[@fortheloveofcats2462]

The only people who were ready to wage a war and shed blood over the succession issue were the Hightowers and Targaryens (Daemon). Betrothing Jace to Helaena, Aegon to Baela and Aemond to Rhaena would've solved the threats from both the sides as the Hightowers would've their blood on the throne, and Daemon wouldn't hurt his daughters by murdering their husbands. Lucerys, Aegon 3 and Daeron could've married the Baratheons and Lannisters, the only people who might've protested Rhaenyra's claim. Jace >>>> Aegon, he would've treated Helaena like the Queen she was.

[@hudsonlewer7486]

I think you significantly over estimate the amount of people that really cared who would’ve been the ruler the whole war was started between the Targaryen and Hightower all the other houses didn’t really care that much the houses that did side with Aegon mainly did it to gain more power he had very few followers that did it specifically because they thought he should be king Edit: I would also argue that blacks had more support and generally so it seems like more houses would have favored or at least not been bothered by the queens rule

[@mehrasa3892]

It's so ridiculous that Rhaenyra made the exact same mistake Viserys did, making her firstborn who doesn't have a legitimate claim to the throne the heir then going on and remarrying and having children who have a more legitmate claim. The dance of the dragons was bound to happen one way or another, if not between Rhaenyra and Aegon II then it definitely would have happened between Jace and Aegon III.

[@WildeMermaid]

I disagree. Rhaenyra's kids actually care about eachother & weren't raised by an emotionally stunted mother & conniving grandfather (Alicent & Otto). Poor Alicent & her kids all needed more love.

[@stormbringer2840]

@@WildeMermaidoh yeah because you think Daemon will let his children be stripped of their birthright ? No Daemon showed even in harrenhal his ambitions are intact .

[@jakebrook]

@@stormbringer2840 Jace and Luke are engaged to his daughters so I doubt Daemon would kill the Strong boys.

[@Wexter0083]

@@stormbringer2840 Daemon also loved Rhaenyra's children as they are an extension of Rhaenyra and Viserys. Daemon would not have raised Aegon III to have the same fear that Alicent instilled in her kids. Plus, Daemon would had required supporters to supplant Jace, and if Jace had the support of the Starks, Arryns, and Valyrians... not to mention all of Daemon's enemies on top of that (like the Hightowers), it is not going to go the same way. Remember Jace is the key diplomat that secured the Starks, Arryns, Mandrlys and Frays into Rhaenyra's cause. If Jace is married to Helena then he automatically gets the support of the Hightowers, Lannisters and probably the Tyrells. His reign would had been secured if not by right than by the illusion of right and alliances. The only chance Daemon would have is if he could gather supporters is in the Riverlands, but considering the herculean effort he had to go to get House Tully onboard... he is not going to last long when the Starks come from the North, the Arryns from the East, the Hightowers and Valyrians from the south... yeah Daemon would be cooked... not to mention his daughters would be instant hostages because they would had been betrothed to Rhaenyra's other two sons.

[@stormbringer2840]

@@jakebrook I never said he would kill them , just usurp them and reveal to them that they are bastards .

[@LadyDreamfyre]

Rhaenyra: "Alicent, I know I lied to you which caused you to 'lose' your father and now my political situation is terrible so you will hand me over your ONLY daughter as a potential hostage in order to deal with the legitimacy issue of my son. Which would obviously your daughter and her own children is extreme danger. And make them potential hostages of course." Alicent: No???? People: HOW ARE ALICENT REJECT RHAENYRA'S KINDNESS???

[@samtroim8979]

💯

[@juliancain3872]

I really can't blame Rhaenyra for lying to Alicent in that one, even if it really wasn't an actual lie. What sane person would have told Alicent the truth in that moment? But lie of omission and all that, it was the same thing that Alicent did, except Rhaenyra never exactly asked her about it so we have a draw there at best. Alicent had to have known what her father had palnned for her and her children, she had to have known the position it would have put Rhaenyra in, having to oppose the son of her bestfriend and her brother at that. Still Otto and Viserys are to blame for that one, she still should have told her about them meeting, I know that the King told her not to, but it still stands she should have at least tried rather than blindside her like that, this one is more on Viserys though, he had to have known the position this would put Rhaenyra in. As for your other charges, Otto was an active threat to Rhaenyra, I don't care if you're team black or team green, that can't be disputed, arguably her calling for his resignation was unintentionally the smartest move she ever made. The betrothal between Jace and Heleana was politically a good match that favors Rhaenyra, fine. If Alicent was making moves to put her son on the throne, making it clear that she was going to defy the King's will after his death, a move that could very well see Rhaenyra and her children dead, I'm confused as to why anyone thinks Rhaenyra should show her any kindness or respect at that point. Which is why I want to strangle her when the page Alicent kept comes up at the parlay on top of all her stupid decisions, the relationship is gone and dead, that time in your life is over you're enemies now. The Dance was going to happen no matter who married who or who said what, Viserys ensured that, long before Aemond killed his nephew, by spoiling and failing to prepare Rhaenyra for the position he specifically said she was to inherit, he really needed to educate her more, by remarrying at all, by marrying a Hightower, by naming a female heir, by neglecting his children, by siring a male heir, by inviting a man he knew wanted to negate his will after he died to be his hand, by not naming Aegon heir after remarrying, by allowing the animosity to stur between the two halves of the families, by not coming up with ANYTHING for his sons (that he made it clear he didn't give a SHIT about) after he made it clear Rhaenyra is his heir. Seriously, Maester, Kingsgaurd, Lordships, offices, brides set to inherit their father's titles, Aegon Aemond and Daeron needed something to make a living, even if Rhaenyra let them live in the Red Keep they needed something to do. And by basically ensuring Aegon and Rhaenyra were both clueless politically inept halfwits by the time of his death. Too many things.

[@fortheloveofcats2462]

Rhaenyra never lied to Alicent, Daemon didn't touch her with his p*nis, that was the context they were talking about.

[@ashtangle]

@@fortheloveofcats2462 yes she did lie. She said I'm a maiden. That means I'm a virgin. She had sex so she isn't a virgin.

[@faaf4950]

@@juliancain3872viserys tried to prepare rhaenyra to rule she was present at the counsel meetings from young age, she just didn't leant😂 rhaenyra was not for ruling , it has nothing to do with her being a woman , she just like daemon are equally not good for ruling

[@user-ti5cw1ug6l]

Basically, if you understand a feudal medieval context almost every proposition Viserys and Rhaenyra make in the show just come off as so goofy. The laws definetly matter more than one king's words. I definitely resonated with Alicent whenever she gave that dumbfounded "Are you serious?" look to Rhaenyra when she proposes things like "Jace x Halaena" and when Viserys thinks it's a good idea. Rhaenyra's sucession is literally a nightmare. If Jace ever took the throne it would be a disaster. Endless suspicion and rebelion. If his line survived then the descendants of Aegon III, Viserys II or even Aegon II, Aemond, and Daeron probably (Definetly) would rise up and try to take the throne themselves. Even if you forget her brothers Rhaenyra is probably setting up a civil war between the descendants of her illegitamate sons and legitamate ones by naming Jace over Aegon III. This is some Aegon IV descision making. Admitting that the Strong boys are bastards and naming Aegon III might've been embarrassing but it would've helped her in the long run. Viserys should've known this as well and he should've made her do it but if he saw her crying, like at the confrontation after Aemond lost his eye, he would lose all heart and continue to let it slide. Rhaenyra would rather protect her vanity than her integrity and power. This is why she loses.

[@BlackfangDragon]

The Kings word absolutely has merit and can override the opinions of others, but in a complicated political system you can’t use hard power to hammer away all your issues as it only gives rise to more violence. You also need soft power, and it is certainly in a Kings ability to implement new rules into the system to make them commonplace so that issues don’t arrive. Viserys didn’t do this beyond the oaths, while Jahaerys his predecessor was sexist despite having a strong willed Queen in Alysanne who believed women could rule. A big part of why he’s looked favorable is thanks to having a wife who was smart and cunning enough to change things for the better in Westeros, even if she could never get him to change his sexist stance.

[@ulisesleon2870]

@@BlackfangDragon this is assuming that in the long term jace's line couldn't come up on top through calculated war, or just violence, and killing the other lines off.

[@BlackfangDragon]

@@ulisesleon2870 I mean more in if you always use violence the result will always be violence and uprisings. People rose up against terrible things even with the threat of violence, some with the aid of or lead by Targaeryans or those descended from them like the Baratheons. Robert even uses that ancestry to help legitimize his rule after all.

[@user-ti5cw1ug6l]

@@BlackfangDragon Agreed. Viserys did not do nearly enough. In fact, against Aegon's claim to the throne and all the precedence behind it he did nothing. Codifying genderblind succession into law would be a huge step. This generation of Targaryens more than any other has the dragon power to force liberal reforms despite conservative lords. Viserys is too weak for this. Having any control over his children with Alicent would've also helped since they wouldn't be completely under her influence. His failiure as a father and statesman are the reason for the dance. If any other Targaryen king was in his position the dance wouldn't have happened because they would either just name Aegon or do a much better job at securing Rhaenyra. Viserys only picked Rhaenyra because he was descended from Aemma and he felt guilty. That's literally his entire motivation. If Aegon was Aemma's son he would instantly be named heir. It never had anything to do with feminism. The fact that he inherited the best Targaryen Westeros and has briliant statesmen like Otto and Lyonel keeping the kings peace serves to hide the fact the is possibly the worst Targaryen king.

[@αστρον]

@BlackfangDragon He was still one of the best Kings westeros had tho.

[@jostockton.]

"Helaena would have been fine at court as Jace's betrothed" Elia Martell and Sansa Stark say hi

[@wolfsbanealphas617]

Don’t forget aegon the third wife

[@CaptainPikeachu]

Elia Martell was abandoned by her husband, Sansa Stark was also hated by Joffrey who was a monster. Given that Jace is neither of those things and seems a good kid, Helaena would actually have been fine because Jace would have protected her.

[@wolfsbanealphas617]

@@CaptainPikeachu remember Damon is near and he over rides jace

[@k2h2kqeb]

Jace seems like a lovely man. It would be like marrying a Stark. You would be well treated and nobody would torture you.

[@Wexter0083]

Jace is not even close to the evil of Joffrey. He would had not laid a hand of Helena if his relationship with Baela is anything to go off of. Plus, while Aegon II and Aemond could be a problem, it is not like Aegon II had any ambitions outside of drinking and whoring and Aemond would probably had let bygones be bygones if Alicent allowed their relationship to heal rather than fester.

[@saadasaad8538]

Rhaenyra would've caused a civil war regardless even if she inherited the throne and ruled peacefully , after she eventually dies Jace's claim would be contested and people would call for Aegon the younger to inherit instead of him . Personally i believe the realm would've learned to accept a female monarch because there was still major houses that stood by Rhaenyra, maybe if she didn't have basterds and made more alliances with doubtfull lords she could've assured her succession

[@mcstotti8691]

As long as the Targaryens stayed united it didnt matter if every lord in the land opposed them. As long as they had Adult dragons they simply stood above the rules. Thats why the doctrin of targaryen exceptionalism was so brilliant. It said targs are diffrent and therefor rules dont apply. Not we are here to change the rules for everyone. If they would have ridden that doctrin further it didnt really matter if they held to westerosi customs as long as they also didnt force their costums on the westerosi. That ultimately was the downfall of the later targaryen that they still viewed themselves as exceptional and unimpeachable even though they lacked the special sauce that made them so. Their dragons.

[@levia9349]

@@mcstotti8691 I doubt that would work someone close to her would just poison or assassinate her.

[@hudsonlewer7486]

I would just like to point out that in the books it was a lot more vague if they were actually bastards a lot of it came as a rumor that was started specifically by the queen and there is no hair color debacle wow her children do have brown hair we never get a hair color for strong and in the book it is also specifically pointed out that rhaenys has black hair wow being a Targaryen that seems to be put in to make it a little bit more complex of a mystery I think the show really dumb down to an almost stupid level cause I love the mystery that they could honestly be legitimate and this queen is just a bitch

[@janellejulianajoy]

I have said this SOOO many times. At least make sure your first is legitimate. It boggles my mind that someone can be this short sighted and entitled after growing up as the daughter of a King! Like, how?! She knew all too well what could happen and that this claim is upheld until she and her father die...and neither are immortal. She smugly brushes off Rhaenys words about this situation. I could brush it off as Rhaenyra simply being an adolescent, but what's the excuse when she's in her 30s?! I can analyze this all day long but it gives me a headache because it's so ridiculous.

[@yusufraage8554]

@@janellejulianajoy She doesnt care thats why she is a Targaryen Jace is a Targaryen.

[@LamboGallardo560]

It's a textbook "you are beneath me and should be happy I'm offering you anything" proposal. The kind literally anyone analyzing the situation honestly knows is bad, but the person proposing it sees it as fair only because they think so little of the person they're offering it to. They might have been "best friends" as kids but what does that even mean when one is a crown princess? Seems to me the friendship was more Alicents job than anything resembling a real friendship. Like Tyrion and Bronn, "I thought we were friends", "when have you ever risked your life for me?"

[@CuntyMisanthrope]

It's the bias for me. Why would Alicent ever allow such a husband for her only daughter? I swear to God, the Blacks see normal, base level politicking and call it 'rude' and 'shady'. It's a royal court, they're trying to survive. They really think they're watching Gossip Girl.

[@datguy3581]

Jace's situation isn't that bad. He is recognized as the heir by Viserys and Corlys. He has the support of the King, the heir, and most of 2 dragon riding families. If the Greens hadn't decided to turn against Rhaenyra, a united Targaryen family and all their dragons would likely be able to overcome any dispute to the claims of Rhaenyra or Jace. It's true not everyone wanted those two to rule but they simply wouldn't have enough power to do much about it. Vaemond was only allowed to challenge Rhaenyra's claim because the Greens allowed him to. And Viserys made a pretty strong statement to the court when he ordered Vaemond's tongue removed.

[@BlackfangDragon]

@@datguy3581 There’s also plenty of people even in places where it is known they are Bastards who also turn a blind eye. While there are plenty who would have problems with it, like Vaemond(but he’s always been out to usurp his brother as we saw with the war in the Stepstonnes) many chose to ignore this obvious truth. Either because they don’t care or, as Lionel makes clear to Harwin, people don’t want to see the boys suffer for actions of their parents.

[@gvirusqueen3559]

@@Captain_Insano_nomercy Pretty sure we’re not meant to side with either team, nobles are awful. #TeamCommonFolk

[@Ule_blood]

Viserys could have forced her hand … aka used his position as haelena’s father to be like … yeh that’s the decision hela marries jace and is my right to make it so Is weird he didn’t just force alicent to eat it since it’s his decision to make

[@CuntyMisanthrope]

@@datguy3581 When has the King's word ever stopped westerosi nobility from acting out? Besides, Viserys's dead.

[@HowToPnP]

Just as a general aside: If someone in asoiaf offers to take care of your kids (as a cup bearer, squire, fiance etc.) they are looking for hostages. If someone offers you their relatives (as a cup bearer, squire, fiance etc.) they are trying to spy on you. Or in case of marriage, it might be a power play.

[@Dragonshade64]

That's one of the major problems with asioaf for me. Every such offer has to be taken with a cynical interpretation or as an act of bad faith because there are no examples of these actions being done in good faith or with good intentions. Additionally, the intrigue stuff is left to take up narrative space as subtext when it would be more interesting as the main terms of engagement for the plot rather than some dull family history for a sidelined character. The whole thing is like The Weatherlight Saga, but worse.

[@HowToPnP]

@@Dragonshade64 the only possible example of good intentions was Robby B engaging Sansa to Joffrey, and that got immediately used and abused by the lions. I agree, the POV of a squire or cup bearer, spying on a lord would be great! So much potential for narrative, worldbuilding and information

[@saymyname2417]

True but people hardly ever see through this. Many are too naive and many just want to interprete things the way they're comfortable for them.

[@jjh2456]

@@HowToPnP the best example though is Ned taking Theon as a spoil of war for defeating the Iron born.

[@HowToPnP]

@@jjh2456 Theon was explicitly a hostage. A better example would be the "places of honor" that Aegon II offered Rhaenyra's sons in F&B. "They will be given places of honor in court" = "you can't protect them if they are at my court, so do as I say"

[@samsonright936]

At this point people just want to make Alicent look an evil irredeemable Karen when she’s literally just in the right. What Rhaenyra proposed was idiotic at best and dubious at the worst, for me that scene (along with the existence of the strong boys) just solidified that Rhaenyra would not make a great queen and she is not a competent politician in the slightest

[@jennyyyy189]

But why is she dubious for wanting to have a political marriage and Alicent not? They're both different sides of the same coin and act completely opposite to highlight their different upbringings and how both wasn't enough to secure power or peace.

[@kikima258]

@@jennyyyy189 because she knows her sons are bastards she knows that their claim will always be chalanged the marriage proposal was her desperate attempt to protect herself and give some legitimacy to her sons she was literaly using healena her own sister and allicent as a sheild to cover for her mistakes

[@thalmoragent9344]

@@kikima258 Facts. Usually in a situation like this, saying what Alicent did after this would be seen as "dismissive/unwilling to cooperate", but really Alicent was just right. "How sweetly the fox speaks when cornered by the hound".

[@jennyyyy189]

@@kikima258 which would be fair to say if you also accept that Alicent is dubious for marrying Heleana to Aegon. She did it, so her power wouldn't be diluted, which again fair, but she wasn't an amazing mother and human for this, she was wrong in doing that to her daughter.

[@kikima258]

@@jennyyyy189 of course she was wrong for marrying her daughter to her messed up son no one is agruing against that and no one is claiming that allicent is a great mother either idk what any of this have to do with this marriage proposal being dubious and unfair? but it wasn't for power allicent is paranoid and wants to keep her kids close (marriying aegon and healena to other noble families was a better political choice to secure more allies) and this doesn't change the fact that rheanyra's marriage proposal was a totaly self serving one that gives no protection to the greens and it would have being extreamly stupid of allicent to accept it

[@izzypfutzenreuter]

I just want to protect Helaena and her children from any pain. She doesn't deserve anything bad. 😾

[@SpvceJAM]

🫣

[@janvancura8412]

💉🧀

[@cascadedeclipse8240]

The butcher ( ex kingsguard ) and a ratcatcher….

[@Emma88178]

I take it you never read the books? Because you're in for some awful things to come in the next seasons of the show.

[@geordiegeorgia]

💔

[@gushingranny475]

Literally the only way to avoid war would be to have done what Otto suggested and Marry Rhenerya and Aegon and have them rule as co-rulers. The second Aegon was born the Hightower decided to make him king. There’s absolutely no reason to marry Helena to Jace because if they did, it would only further Jaces’s claim to succession, make it less likely that a Hightower grandson would rule, it wouldn’t bring more power to the Hightower family and it would make it even more likely that Aegon, Aemond, and Daeron would be killed to remove other claimants to the throne. The Hightower’s are doing what they do to stay on top and protect their relatives

[@kandykane3265]

I know it's not the thesis of your vid, but it certainly made me think about how even without the Hightower branch of the family, Rhaenyra would certainly have lead to some kind of Targ Civil War. If Jace and Aegon III had both lived and both had lines, I could see a future where the two lines duke it out in a Blackfyre rebillion of sorts. Kind of makes you want to give Rhaenyra a shake. Like, did you even TRY to have kids with Laenor? Or even find someown who looks like Laenor? It's such an obvious mistake she made on the show.

[@yusufraage8554]

Yes, she tried to have true born kids with ser Leanor and her kids would not grow up to be kinslayers and kill each other. Deamon wouldnt kill Jace, Luce and Joff to get Aegon the Younger to the throne. Deamon is a Targaryen supremascist he wouldnt harm the blood of the dragon even if he hates Otto. He made the Queens Guard swear oath to Jace as prince of Dragonstone and heir to the iron throne and avenged Luce's with blood and Cheese. If you are a Targaryen you have nothing to fear from Deamon but Otto is a Hightower.

[@ythelldoineedahandle]

@@yusufraage8554 Her three eldest children did not get to live long enough to be able to start a civil war with the trueborn sons. Taking the realities of politics into account, OP rightly claims the possibility of another civil war between Rhaenyra's bastards and trueborn sons, you just assume, without any proof, that they would not start fighting for the crown or there would not be any disagreement with the major houses about who gets to be king. Based on what I have seen from Daemon so far, I think it is totally reasonable to presume that as soon as the Greens are out of the picture, he would try to get the bastards out of the way, but luckily for him, the Greens took care of that one for him.

[@ythelldoineedahandle]

Totally agree with you, Rhaenyra at least should have tried to find a sperm donor, who looks like Leanor.

[@yasmina3999]

@@ythelldoineedahandle plus Jace's descendants in any generation would have less powerful claim to the throne than descendants of his legitimate brothers or uncles.Even if Rhaenyra's children were friendly, there was no guarantee her grandchildren wouldn't start a civil war.

[@yunabroadway3033]

The more I read the comments the more o understand that Rhanyras messed so bad she ruined all her chances. She should at least drink moon tea when she was f with that Strong guy. And she should at least find a male hooked with silver hair and have at least one child with him

[@faaf4950]

From the first moment she proposed it, I was like that wouldn't solve anything, aegon is still a threat. And honestly rhaenyra's proposal was made when she was obviously cornered(after sir harwin made his parentage of strong boys obvious for everyone to see) why would alicent endanger helaena for that , if alicent look at her children as political pieces she would have given helaena to them, then she would have win whether blacks or greens win but she genuinely love her and doesn't want to position her in that situation.

[@vedsaipandla3259]

Hey I just wanted to say that you probably have some of the best analysis of ASOIAF. Your understanding of the story has allowed me to see the characters and world in a completely new way and truly accentuates GRRM's genius.

[@hark1007]

100% agreed. I feel like especially around HotD there is a culture were often arguments devolve into either saying "ought to be" without recognising the reality they are operating in or saying "just is" while tacitly endorsing the status quo. Hills Videos are great because, even though they do pick a side they always shine a light on the entire societal context but don't treat it as some sort of moral ground Westeros ought stand on. It's pretty great

[@brona497]

You must not watch many other ASOIAF channels, this one is just so biased. A shame as her presentation etc is great

[@damonlongstreet8630]

This one is one of the most biases Asoiaf channels there is.

[@Billpro25]

You beat me to it. Hill's Alive's is one of the best (if not THE best) channel when it comes to analyze GRRM's epic fantasy world!

[@Kay-kg6ny]

I've said it once and I'll say it a thousand times more: this is all Viserys's fault, he did bad and he should feel bad.

[@Okkotsu86275]

The marriage proposal was definitely a strategic move on Rhaenyra's part, it definitely wasn't done out of pure altruism or trying to make pace between the two factions. Rhaenyra wants her cake and wants to eat it too, type of character. I find it somewhat comical and annoying how so many fans justify her and the Blacks actions. But when the Greens do the same things, their vile villains. The Blood and Cheese thing is going to be doozy.

[@adelkaizbest2038]

I rlly can't wait for people to try justify it and carry on simping for dreamy Daemon

[@Okkotsu86275]

@@adelkaizbest2038 Don’t worry they will. Their going to put it all on Aemond

[@Skrzacik]

90% of the fandom is so biased towards the blacks that people are already unapologetically cheering and happy for blood&cheese. Makes me real sick to read some comments on social media

[@Okkotsu86275]

@@Skrzacik Yup, I gathered that much. The fandom is extremely bias.

[@adelkaizbest2038]

@@Okkotsu86275 but they seem to be in love with him as well... Dance of the simps???

[@maharanieh]

and even after all this, you can still support rhaenyra and alicent. nobody is “evil” in this scenario, they are reacting according to what would give them more possible benefit or advantage in their respective situation. i just hoped the fans would stop being so reductive on explanations of why certain things happened, sadly this is one of the examples of many. not everything is so black and white, nuance exist people!

[@elephantshell3617]

Even in this comment section, everyone is like “and that’s why Rhaenyra is a stupid slutty bitch and the greens are the winners”. It’s almost impressive that everyone is forgoing nuance to keep playing “my team is better than your team” like this is a YA fantasy love triangle instead of the setup to a catastrophic war.

[@maharanieh]

@@elephantshell3617 no? i deliberately took some time to scroll down the comments as of now. there's no one calling her a slut, but people are defending her from being called one. i guess you're projecting? anywho if someone did please do report or call them out if you like. winning is subjective in this war, but we can all agree the targaryens are left immensely crippled because they end up losing their biggest asset : dragons. these events are engaging to discuss, most of these comments and this channel is civil so it's alright. choosing teams can be fun for a lot of people and i don't really mind it. eh i don't like generalizing teams supporters either. i choose to give extra attention to reasonable ones and disregard the hostile ones. in here people might criticize rhaenyra, but then you go to twitter and tiktok you'll see people would praise her for doing what she wants. to be fair, alicent faced WAY more criticism especially when the show was airing weekly. as time goes by it seems like rhaenyra and alicent is slowly starting to get somewhat equally reasonable criticism. i would seperate the whole toxic and shallow people who supports these teams or a supposed team neutral in their own seperate category.

[@janellejulianajoy]

This! Soon, it becomes a tit for tat. There are a few i would qualify as evil like book Aemond, he's a straight up psychopath.

[@sazuco8893]

people forget what happened to elia martel

[@HillsAliveYT]

And Myrcella. Honestly when women are married off to houses in the name of "making peace" it often doesn't end well for them.

[@sazuco8893]

@@HillsAliveYT yep

[@jjh2456]

@@HillsAliveYT gotta throw in Sansa too.

[@wolfsbanealphas617]

@@HillsAliveYT do you think dorn had Elia killed not Tywin just send a guard to tell the mountain take no prisoners he would do this in the name of peace keeping war from dorne

[@fortheloveofcats2462]

@@HillsAliveYT not to mention that this was *300 years BEFORE* GoT plot

[@carebear2025b]

Rhaenyra didn't even uphold the precedent set by Viserys!! She could've named Baela the heir to Driftmark (since Laena was the eldest), but she makes her son the heir.

[@fortheloveofcats2462]

Laenor was older than Laena, Luce was older than Baela, why would she name Baela? Not to mention Baela was supposed to be the Queen consort to Jace according to the Blacks.

[@CaptainPikeachu]

Baela would have been Queen with her son Jace, so Rhaenyra would have no reason to get Baela named as heir to Driftmark. Also given that she is still protecting her kids, she wouldn’t name Baela or Rhaena for Driftmark because it would mean admitting that her son Luke is a bastard, which would put him in danger so she’s not gonna do that

[@Rmerino4689]

Rhaenyra doesn't own Driftmark, Corlys does. Why would she get to name the heir to Driftmark?

[@HillsAliveYT]

Exactly. I can sort of get why she did it because she's in a precarious position and needs all of the power that she can get, but it's one of the things that I find bothersome about the argument that Rhaenyra represents progressive feminism while the Greens represent conservatism, because Rhaenyra also consistently uses sexism when it advantages her over someone else and literally the only "feminist" thing she ever does is argue that she should be queen.

[@jjh2456]

@@HillsAliveYT because to many of the fandom Rhaenyra cannot do anything wrong even when the narrative is telling then audience time and time again that Rhaenyra is messing up majorly.

[@starsapphire156]

Thanks for this video - very clearly laid out and fair reasoning. The writing for the show frustrated me because sometimes it was great (a better adaptation than many these days) and yet other times it muddied things so you get fan reactions like the ones you are responding to. I'm not sure why the showrunners stopped short of underlined that the realm simply wouldn't accept bastards as obviously as the Strong boys and there would be a huge issue with Rhaenyra as a female ruler. They play with it, but in places where it's made explicit in the book like the Green Council they leave it out making the Greens look extra skeevy, but then undermine that with Alicent's show-only affection for Rhaenyra. I like Alicent/Rhaenyra friendship/possible love angle, but not only does it replace the Laena/Rhaenyra book relationship, it can at times make their actions unbelievable particularly in later episodes. They also don't highlight how much of a threat Daemon is to the Greens, Alicent and her family really aren't safe if he's Prince Consort and neither are Rhaenyra's whilst Alicent's are around. I can also find fans confusing their 21st century views with a pseudo medieval setting; sure I'd love Rhaenyra to do what she wants and be an emacipated woman, but Westeros doesn't work like that, nor has she or Viserys (although he tried at the beginning) have been shown to try and change the system. You highlight this well by illustrating what a gamechanger to patriarchal power Rhaenyra would be as an example, I wish the show did a better job in later episodes.

[@fu40000]

This is why I’m team Green team black just seems like they keep making their own situation worse by denying reality🙄 if just one of the kids look like their mother or supposed father the rest would be much safer but she kept making the same mistake over and over even though her claim was already shaky🙈

[@Kay-kg6ny]

I'm Team Abolish the Monarchy and Send Both Sides to a Farm but since this is a prequel we all know that's not gonna happen 😂

[@BlackfangDragon]

@@Kay-kg6ny Best ending honestly.

[@Janary08]

@@Kay-kg6ny to the ranch they go

[@CaptainPikeachu]

I’m team black because the king made his succession clear and he wanted Rhaenyra to inherit so she should. Anyone challenging that is a traitor.

[@fu40000]

@@CaptainPikeachu Yeah I like them to all the way up until they decapitated Lord Vaemond. He was right the king had a right to run his house and his kingdom the way he wanted but the moment he tried to put one of his illegitimate grandson as the head of another house I say he overstepped his authority🤔 even The king himself said that even he wasn’t above tradition and law he was in a unique position to change it but not to ignore it all together.

[@Nolepiere]

I don't think it was a hostage plan and I don't think Otto meant to mistreat Daemon's sons either. I hope you can make a video about similarities between Rhaena with Sansa and Baela with Arya. I noticed that Ned actions with Sansa, Daemon is similar pretty with Rhaena. I saw a Reddit post about these four girls and I’m curious about show predictions for them since their stories are changing. Sansa and Rhaena both are the only ones without their house attributed animal, married twice, really close with their mothers. Rhaena’s last marriage is especially interesting. She called to Jacaerys when he pulled a knife then shook her head to Aemond I guess for him not to hit the boy with a rock? That reminded me of Sansa wanting Joffrey and Arya to stop fighting and both the kids fighting just ignored her. Ironically the same time Sansa loses her wolf and Rhaena loses the dragon she wanted. Some had theories she’ll be captured by Aemond and be in King’s Landing. With Baela, I noticed when she made a disgusted face at a possible proposal in Pentos same as Arya telling Ned she doesn’t want to be a lady. Ned really reached out to Arya and Daemon taking time to teach Baela Valyrian. I’m sure next season she’ll be closer with him. The situation with Daemon and the girls is so intriguing.

[@NebulasOnyx]

Yeah I didn’t get how everyone is trying to push parallels between Sansa and Alicent when it’s clearly Rhaena. Your right their stories are changing because this Daemon/Rhaena no dragon situation isn’t detailed in the books. So I guess the writers wanted a Sansa 2.0 😂

[@Nolepiere]

@@NebulasOnyx and Matt Smith said a while back that Daemon is a family man but I just honestly didn't get that so I guess he was maybe just talking about only future scenes. They really didn't give us an answer why he's treating Rhaena like that so I just assumed it's the same as Ned and Sansa and he just doesn't get her

[@yianvdrali3298]

@@Nolepiere I can see them doing the hostage thing. It’s much more interesting than sending her off to the Vale. Lmfao I can’t wait to see her hatch her dragon so Daemon can finally pay her attention. Definitely didn’t get family man vibes

[@BlackfangDragon]

@@Nolepiere It was the deleted scenes which were shot before they added ones like the choking scenes. At the very least he loved his brother. Unfortunately he’s such a “Please notice me dadd-brother!” That all he did was stir shit up for Viserys instead of at least trying to earn the acknowledgment he wanted from him properly.

[@ariadneblue2201]

Thank God! I always thought Rhaena is the most similar to Sansa! They are both so gentle and sweet! Baela is pretty much a Targaryen Arya, brash, feisty, doesn't want anyone telling her what to do. And Alicent is like Catelyn!

[@beautifulblacksoul8611]

Most definitely a trap. It is wild that people think that the second it didn't serve Rhaenyra, Haelena would have been used as leverage. Or... Unalived in order to make stronger political alliances (cc Daemon gotting his wife to free himself up for marriage or Laenor). Additionally, the criticism of Haelena and Aegon being married (yes, he's a clown although I have hope for him), but Haelena is very fragile. There is no safer match for her, and I think they were paired to keep her safe.

[@HillsAliveYT]

And even if there were only a slight chance that Rhaenyra would use Helaena as leverage, why even take that chance? I think that is what baffles me about so many arguments that people have in her favor, it's not even necessarily that she's evil or untrustworthy, it's simply that the amount of trust that people need to put in her and everyone around her is too much to ask for anyone who found themselves in this same situation.

[@gvirusqueen3559]

I dunno, hope for Aegon who takes women without consent by abusing his power dynamic and leaves his bastards to kill each other in Flea Bottom? 😂

[@BlackfangDragon]

He rapes her when he’s drunk and enjoys the fighting pits where his illegitimate kids are used to fight each other for peoples amusement. Saying it’s a safe match ignores that he clearly takes what he wants by force and enjoys violence and harm on those smaller and weaker than him. The only safety is when he’s drunk.

[@beautifulblacksoul8611]

@@gvirusqueen3559 Aegon is a teenage Prince in a patriarchal society where consent isn't a part of the curriculum. He's also a fictional TV character. Yes, I have hope for him. More than Daemon who is a grown adult who couldn't even consent to his wife breathing on her horse. Or Rhaenyra who is a grown adult who consented to a random servant being killed so that she can whisk away her husband (and that's the nice version of the story) or consented to unaliving strangers who have more right to their inherited properties than her bastard. Yes, I instead choose to put my hope in Aegon over anyone on the blacks side. Literal teenagers and their mother going up against the vilest humans (who are liked by masses because they can girl boss or give off charisma) in order to have a life. Any more questions?

[@beautifulblacksoul8611]

@@HillsAliveYT I wouldn't have done it even if there was no threat at all. My child... With your bastard... To benefit you? But Haelena is a dove of a character. I said absolutely not right as Rhaenyra proposed it. Some of the HotD fanbase really want Alicent and her offspring to exist to serve and stroke Rhaenyra's ego, and I'm just starting to think they're locora. This is the same argument they used for why Aemond deserved to lose an eye because he was brave enough to become Vhagar's rider. The premise for every argument is literally that the Greens should serve Rhaenyra, and if it doesn't serve her, then it is wrong because her pathetic father said she could be Queen. The story would have ended quickly if it was remotely realistic. Some quick stabs in the dark 😌.

[@greenforce68]

You forgot how Helaena is never a threat to Rhaenyra's claim. The book even stating that she never hated or had problems with Helaena. She called Helaena "my sweet sister" as she called her sons "my sweet boys" but she called the rest of her siblings as "my *HALF* brothers" really tells you something abt her feelings towards Helaena. If she's abt to hurt any Greens, I doubt that she'd go after Helaena. *Especially* if she has children with Jace. All her life, Rhaenyra adores her mother and always wanted a sister/daughter

[@daddy_1453]

Nobody said the trap required Haelana to be hurt. The marriage is simply a way to exert pressure on the Greens. "Your questioning the legitimacy of the boys your daughter married into?". That is the trap. This line is reasoning would shut off further legitimacy arguments from the Greens. And Rhaenyra getting a loving daughter-in-law-sister/wife is just a personal bonus for her and her son,respectively..

[@diegonatan6301]

Still she and her kids were the first victims of Rhaenyra.

[@strikeforcealpha9343]

Ehhh Blood and cheese might disagree with you there.

[@binalip1669]

She liked Helaena because Helaena is by all ways of consideration below her in the line of succession. By both male primogeniture or absolute primogeniture Helaena isn’t a threat Aegon Aemond and Daeron all have claims that in the eyes of some is stronger than her own so she dislikes them. Rhaenyra’s actions towards Helaena both blood and cheese and potentially brothel queens go to show exactly how authentic that love towards Helaena actually was

[@nunyabiznes33]

The public thought otherwise. They blamed Rhaenyra for Haleana's death and the city erupted into riots.

[@bensonfang1868]

This marriage can be compared to the marriage of Henry VII, someone who was from a royal bastard line and someone who was royal through his mother, and Elizabeth of York, the daughter of a king. All of Elizabeth's trueborn brothers died in order for this marriage to create a stable realm and even then Henry executed her male cousin Edward after locking him in a tower cell for many years.

[@jjh2456]

But this was after Henry won the War of the Roses though. So there was still a war and Henry rebuilt the kingdom from the ashes.

[@diegonatan6301]

@@jjh2456 Exactly, Henry VII became king by right of conquest, his marriage was a way to tie up some loose ends.

[@ythelldoineedahandle]

the whole show is based on that time time period, lol

[@bensonfang1868]

@@diegonatan6301and he tied up further loose ends by killing Elizabeth’s male cousin and rumored brother

[@nont18411]

This could be a very smart move by Rhaenyra. The only problem is that Rhaenyra is NOT a smart person in the first place😅 because the system being misogynistic aside, any smart person wouldn’t have sex with the guys who will give the heirs that look totally different from her official husband (Criston who gave birth to Jace and Harwin who gave birth to Luke and Joff, all three kids look nothing like Laenor). I think Rhaenyra has a good faith in it. She didn’t really think it through but Otto and Alicent might be seeing this as a hostage situation and they don’t want Rhaenyra to have an advantage over them, plus, Helaena being near someone like Daemon is an extreme red flag (which we all know, will come to pass). And speaking of misogynistic system, we shouldn’t forget that this patriarchal system also punish men for not conforming to it. Prime example, Robb Stark. He refused the arranged marriage with house Frey and chose to marry for love so the Freys betrayed him in the red wedding and his head’s gone just like his dad Ned so Rhaenyra not conforming to the system isn’t because of its “sexism” alone.

[@jjh2456]

Harwin is the father of all 3 of the Strong boys.

[@nont18411]

@@jjh2456 Jace’s hair says otherwise.

[@deanxiii1595]

@@nont18411 Your comment made me think about it more. If I'm not mistaken and i rewatch it again, Jace hair is straight while both Lucerys and Joffrey have certain curls to it like Harwin. Why would Harry Collett the actor for Jace be forced to wear that ridiculous wig unless to pointed out to us that Jace is Criston Cole's son? Even Harry said it himself the wig should be better🤣. It's just my opinion and Jace is really Harwin son with a case of a bad wig but I can't get it out of my head now 🤔.

[@jjh2456]

@@nont18411it’s Harwin. It was confirmed in Ep 7. You have a head canon. Only thing you can do is go to AO3 to satisfy it.

[@agahpito902]

@@nont18411 if im not mistaken, the timeline doesn´t add up, unless jace spent years in rhae´s belly 😅

[@jonathankraus6818]

I feel like this plot would have been better if they kept the hair color of Rhaenys dark as it was in the books so that the legitimacy of the kids was more questionable than obvious.

[@agahpito902]

yeah, but they did that intentionally. they wanted it to be obvious.

[@ItsButterBean1020]

I like the idea she's got black hair with silver strands

[@Janary08]

Nahhh in the books the boys looked exactly like harwin and little like rhaeneyra and laenor

[@nonjabulomangoro1871]

She had purple eyes though, so the show excluding the purple eyes of all the Valyrians put them in a tough spot.

[@jjh2456]

No it wouldn’t have. The point is its very explicit that Rhaenyra’s 3 oldest boys are indeed bastards. The show didn’t want any guessing or anyone coming up with any other interpretation otherwise. The audience is supposed to wonder how in the world is she going to correct the situation.

[@mendiel8726]

It's funny how the actual sexism works against Alicent because if she wedded her daughter to Jace it wouldn't have changed nothing. But on the other hand Ned Stark didn't marry Sansa to Joffrey and basically started a war, when the illegitimacy of Joffrey was less obvious. If he did, no one would have said nothing and so many lives would have been saved. But Ned is an honorable man, and Alicient an angry jealous woman, for doing the exact same thing...

[@jjh2456]

Neither Ned nor Alicent were wrong.

[@mendiel8726]

@@jjh2456 yeah I wanted to point out that despite the fact people support Rhaenarya for some feminists reasons, they are being sexist towards Alicent. Because she is clearly facing backlash for doing the same things that people call male characters righteous and honorable for.

[@Wexter0083]

​@@mendiel8726Eh is not quite the same thing in this scenario. Ned was revealing an incestuous bastard, and only after Cerci killed the King to protect. Plus in Ned's perspective Robert was being betrayed, did not know, and Jon Arryn was also murdered to protect the secret. Alicent is not in that same situation as clearly the King (Viserys) does not care, Leanor did not care and even Corlys the possibly most offended party did not care, even after Daemon executed Vaemond over. They're similar, but different scenarios. If Ned revealed the secret and Robert went "nah it's cool" and Stannis went "nah it's fine he's heir to house Baratheon" and he still pushes the issue then they're in the same boots.

[@beautifulblacksoul8611]

Rhaenyra should have been willing to make concessions. Her inability to make true concessions results in her downfall and the reason why the Greens couldn't negotiate with her. Had she disinherited her son for taking his uncle's eye, an alliance would have been likely and her sons would not have been publicly declared bastards by Vaemond. Lucerys would be alive as well. Unfortunately, she wanted her cake, to eat it, and everyone else's cake. Her entitlement escalated the war and Viserys's incompetence cemented it. Alicent saw both clearly way before the war started, fortunately.

[@BlackfangDragon]

Vaemond was always out to take his brothers titles for himself. They could have been legitimate and changed nothing. He was threatened with being killed for mutiny during the stepstonnes. The man was always out for personal power and was even willing to usurp the next rightful heirs his nieces.

[@jjh2456]

@@BlackfangDragonagain…you are not making any sense.

[@jjh2456]

Luc needed to be punished for what he did to Aemond. Like I honestly couldn’t get behind Rhaenyra after that.

[@beautifulblacksoul8611]

@@BlackfangDragon regardless, he has a right to do so. The Blacks do not have a right to interfere or name their bastard as the heir. That is hundreds of years of legacies to a bastard that don't even look like you. A second son. A whole Strong. She should have been wise enough to disinherit the boy. Had she done so, maybe she wouldn't have gotten BBQed. Or... Again... Her son would have been alive. And there would have been a good excuse for him not to inherit someone else's legacy that didn't directly point towards his mother's looseness.

[@BlackfangDragon]

@@beautifulblacksoul8611 Otto was always out to usurp her. Alicent literally confronts her father on this and his plan was to always kill Rhaenyra when Viserys wouldn’t marry Rhaenyra to the much younger Aegon. This is why the conundrum doesn’t work. It’s a screwed situation either way. Play by the rules and Otto and Vaemond would do the exact same things and use the fact she’s a woman against her, don’t play by the rules and they’ll still do it anyways but now they can look morally righteous for it. Which seems to be the theme for Alicent and Rhaenyra, who both have to deal with these two different situations and how it’s left them unhappy and passing on their trauma to their kids.

[@inelouw]

I don't think even Viserys legitimising Rhaenyra's children would have any effect on the succession. Instead of being Velaryons, they'd suddenly be Strongs, and with that lose any claim on the throne from their paternal side. The Targaryen blood in the Velaryon family is a big selling point for a lot of Houses who support Rhaenyra's right to inherit.

[@fortheloveofcats2462]

They would be legitimized as Valeryon, but Jace was going to rule by the name Targaryen, that was already decided before Rhaenyra's marriage to Laenor. He didn't need the Targaryen connection from the Valeryons, since his mother was Rhaenyra TARGARYEN, and he had a dragon born to him.

[@thebohemianserb2114]

The king almost doesn’t see Aegon as is kid. When he was dying he said “Renera, my only child” because his first marriage in his own mind was the most legitimate.

[@Savage-nv6wr]

You are just spouting ignorance , did you not pay attention at the last dinner scene , his whole speech about how he loves everyone that shares his blood ! You're smoking crack or you are just a feminist watching a show clearly not made for you ! Go watch Barbie instead😂

[@hark1007]

You are definetly right about the fact that there is more to this situation than the very shallow view many in the fanbase take. Now especially show Rhaenyra doesn't strike me as terribly politically apt so I doubt she had all of this in mind while proposing it. Not discounting the idea she thought of some of it but a core character trait of hers seems to be that she has trouble conceiving of herself as a political figure and of her choices as having political consequences, trying to pass Bastards of as legitimate Children being one of these. However all of the aspects you brought up are correct and even if Rhaenyra didn't Alicent almost certainly realised them leading to her rejection of the idea. The worst part of it all is that this does feel like a case were actual honesty may have ended up better. Now certainly a bastard born legitimized by royal decree sitting the Iron Throne would wrinkle a few brows but most indicators point towards Jacaerys being altogether extremly capable and actually able to navigate the politics his mother couldn't. All of this to say: I love Jace and you will rip this strongest of bois out of my cold dead hands. Also very good video, always a delight to watch these

[@ulisesleon2870]

the issue with legitimization is that it looses luke driftmark. like exchanging driftmark, for a potential shot at inheriting the burnt out, and unsustainable harrenhall isn't a great thing.

[@BlackfangDragon]

@@ulisesleon2870 Not that Lukes against that. He’s very clear in the fact he doesn’t want to be Lord of Driftmark, but everyone else keeps saying he should be and even his betrothed is happy for him being Lord of Driftmark when it should go to her.

[@hark1007]

@@BlackfangDragon at that point I'd favour co rulership of some kind to be honest. Obviously needs some rewriting the marriage contract but may well work

[@jjh2456]

@@ulisesleon2870 but Luc would be the Lord Paramount of the Riverlands and the Trident. That is a very big position in the kingdom to have.

[@hark1007]

@@jjh2456 no? At most he'd be Lord of Harrenhall, which he'd need to contest from Uncle Larys anyhow but the Tullys are Lord Paramounts of the Riverlands.

[@jamiereekie9342]

It was a solution that solely benefited Rhaenyras backside and not a mutual deal. She thought she could use it as a bargaining chip.

[@Derekivery]

My only major criticism of house of the dragon as a show was the fact that they did not show the relationship with Harwin Strong before the boys were born. Rhaenyra has one scene with him and they don’t even talk or even flirt. He carried her away and next thing we know he’s father to her 3 bastard kids, putting him, her and the kids all in danger… um… why? Why would she take that risk? Why would he, and why would both put their children at risk. And it’s funny because the show goes out it’s way to show there is an option to get rid of unwanted pregnancies. so even if Harwin and Rhaenyra were so passionate he…um… finished inside her, there were still options to prevent a succession crisis while they were lovers… so why did they take such a massive risk. Would have been nice to explore that.

[@menelikjegna]

Rhaenyra needed children to shore up her claim. Lhaenor was "💅🏽" and evidently, couldn't get the job done. Harwin was a fool (as noted by his father) who took up the role Rhaenyra wanted for Cristian Cole. Not much to explore.

[@jjh2456]

You know what would’ve solved this…if Rhaenyra had a daughter. All of Rhae’s children that were born ended up being sons. If she had a daughter then maybe the Jace/Helaena marriage would work as Rhae’s daughter could go to Aemond or Daeron and Rhae has some skin in the game. Truth is the Jace/Helaena marriage proposal is a simple fix to a very complex problem. It wouldn’t have prevented a dance, just postponed the inevitable.

[@kelsianderson8903]

As soon as Rhynaera suggested the betrothal, I was screaming at my TV DON’T DO IT!! Helaena would be a political prisoner and honestly why would she want to marry someone who’s very existence threatens her and her families life? Let’s not even get into the fact that the Strong boys were the reason her little brother lost an eye.

[@dranixrush3306]

Yeah, fault on both sides regarding the fight though.

[@youngveteran6368]

I kept saying that rhaenyra’ s proposal was a ploy to get Alicent’s grand children and aegon & aemonds neice/ nephews as hostages similar to what Otto suggested in ep 10 (and I was saying that B4 that episode) I HATE how subtlety villainous they made the blacks as if their the more decent side in this conflict 😂 their just one crappy family as a whole (EXCEPT sweet helaena she just wanted to play with her bugs and instead she’s dragged into this mess)

[@jjh2456]

I’m glad you picked up on the subtle villainy at play here. The whole point is to be against the Targaryens as a whole.

[@bluestbell]

only tangential, but I'm so curious about how a timeline where the Dance didn't happen and Rhaenyra ascended without trouble would have played out. I can't imagine the Strong boys' illegitimacy wouldn't have become a source of new conflict, especially so when Rhaenyra has actually trueborn sons by Daemon (or as trueborn as they are with Laenor still alive in the show, but technicalities, technicalities) - seems like another civil war waiting to happen there.

[@jjh2456]

Rhaenyra probably would’ve ascended. But when it became Jace’s turn all hell would’ve broken loose.

[@BlackfangDragon]

Jace at the very least is much more politically motivated in trying to live up to his family legacy due to his bastardry, unlike Rhaenyra during her youth, that he could have been the alliances needed to stay in power peacefully. But we’ll never know for sure since things didn’t play out that way.

[@jjh2456]

@@BlackfangDragon Jace flat out wouldn’t be accepted. Neither would his other two brothers. Their bastardy is known and people aren’t stupid. The best thing Rhae could’ve done after she ascended was name her sons with Daemon her heirs and betroth one of them to Princess Jahaera, which is exactly what happened anyway.

[@ulisesleon2870]

@@jjh2456 then the issue becomes she has three dragon riding sons, who all would be both angered at being publically humiliated, and also who could develop feelings of having been robbed by their own mothers. that doesn't sound like a great formula for stability. ( again we know what ambitious bastard/younger sons, who have been removed from obtaining what they see as theirs.) again this is potentially good option with a clear negative side effect that would have needed to be accounted for.

[@jjh2456]

@@ulisesleon2870 they aren’t being robbed of anything because they have no right to the throne cause they are bastards.

[@LusiaEyre]

I think Rhaenyra saw no issue with Jace inheriting after her because his claim comes from her, not his father. So it's not exactly the same issue, like later with Joffrey, who shared no blood with Robert but based his claim on him being his father. Her belief in her right was so strong that she would be convinced in Jace's right, too. I think that show!Rhaenyra aimed to appease the Greens by making Helaena future queen linking the lines while maintaining the belief she WILL rule next.

[@jjh2456]

That’s fine and dandy but everyone knows that ain’t how it works.

[@alicehiginodeazevedo7754]

In fact, Viserys ended up being the big reason why everyone rejected Rhaenyra and why Rhaenyra wasn't possibly ready to be the heir: 1- he didn't train her for that, he just named her and thought she would stay for that, not just him but Rhaenyra too, not even making an effort like staying or returning to Kingsland, doing tasks that the heir would do and even some of the king's functions, sitting next to her father at court and actually participating in it in addition to doing the same with her eldest son Jace who until then would be her heir, or at least the heir she would name. 2- getting married again and having other children, especially sons, which at that time, even outside of asoiaf, already made them automatically take the lead in the line of succession than rhaenyra, even if she was the oldest (unless whether in Dorne or Mormont House). 3- Viserys should never have married her to Laenor, if he really was a real king and wanted his daughter as heir, he wouldn't have married her to Laenor but to a daemon, or even to another, but not to Laenor, after all I believe At least in the books, there would have been rumors about his preference for men, thus making him not accept Lyonel's suggestion and marry Laenor, or if he didn't accept Daemon's offer and of course made him talk to Laenor, Rhaenyra, Rhaenys and corlys for who knows maybe (my fanfic side kicking in) there will be a Valyrian marriage between the three Anyway, he would have thought about it for the love of God

[@Skrzacik]

To be honest, immediately after watching this in the show I realized this is a cunning move - if Helaena married Jace, they would not be able to question his legitimacy anymore, as it would hurt Helaena.

[@thalmoragent9344]

Yeah, in the end, Rhaenyra was stupid to believe this would work. She KNOWS that Alicent is aware of the status of Jaecerys' as a bastard. Even Rhaenys wanted for Laena's line to inherit Driftmark due to them at least having direct Velaryon blood from the main line. She agreed with Vaemond and even spoke to Corlys on this matter before Vaemond made it, but she was a loyal wife so she did follow his wishes even if she didn't agree with it. Alicent and Rhaenys, 2 rather powerful women in the land of Westeros, weren't on Rhaenyra's side regarding her illegitimate sons. Says a lot about the supposed "girlboss" Princess Rhaenyra.

[@yusufraage8554]

Rheanys was always with Rheanyra, she wanted her to prepare for the war that is coming. That was before Jace, Luke and joff were even born. The realm will never accept a women ruler said Rheanys to Rheanyra after the Lords of Westeros bended the knee to her as the heir to the iron throne.

[@janellejulianajoy]

@@yusufraage8554 No she wasn't. Rewatch the season finale. Rhaenys rushes back to tell Rhaenyra as a heads up....and her granddaughters are on Dragonstone betrothed to political targets. Rhaenys was set to take Baela and Rhaena to Driftmark until Baela said she wanted to fight. This opened the door for Rhaenys to assist. When Rhaenyra is crowned you'll notice Rhaenys didn't bow. I won't ever say she hated the boys because she didn't, but, Baela and Rhaena clearly came first.

[@yusufraage8554]

@@janellejulianajoy She was waiting for the house head but Rheanyra was always with Rheanyra.

[@yusufraage8554]

@@janellejulianajoy She would never support a Hightower against a Targaryen.

[@jjh2456]

@@yusufraage8554 She was going to until Viserys showed up in the throne room that day. Remember she went to him the night before to beg him to sit and hear the claim for Driftmark.

[@mimiHTcat]

the smartest marriage matches the greens could've scored is with the velaryons

[@jennyyyy189]

While you may be right that it was a slap in the face or threat to Alicent from her point of view, it isn't from Rhaenyras perspective. While Alicent was conditioned her whole life to be paranoid and believe her kids would be killed, Rhaenyra didn't have that same conditioning. She never thought the greens would kill her unprovoked until they showed her otherwise, because she wasn't whispered to by Viserys for years, she and her kids would be killed for Aegon to take the throne. And thus she didn't mean this betrothal as a threat to hurt Healena or take her hostage, but as a compromise that both of their children would rule together and as a peace offering, which Alicent sadly took as a threat because of her upbringing. Sad thing is Alicent believed her kids would be killed unprovoked by Rhaenyra and acted accordingly and they could have just solved this whole problem by communicating. People can hate on this betrothal all they want and say it was calculated but the fact remains that Jace would have treated Healena better than Aegon and she would have been a lot happier with him. If Viserys had teached his kids to love each other, then there would not have been a succession crisis, because the Targaryens would all be on the same page that Jace and healena should rule and they would stand together against uprisings and shit from some nobles. My fanfic is that Rhaenyra and Alicent communicate about their issues and ban Daemon and Otto from westeros and live happily ever after lol

[@jennyyyy189]

Also the kings word is law. Jaehaerys kind of ruined this by calling for a great council, when the succession line was perfectly clear, he just didn't want to accept that because he was a misogynist. Also stop comparing Rheanyra to Cersei, when Cerseis kids had no business on the throne just looking at their blood, while Jace, Luke and joffrey were literal sons of the future queen and had dragonblood, this is not comparable.

[@Brian-wj7gb]

Great points, also, the Strong boys all had dragons that were getting bigger every year, and they had a vested interest to defend each others claims as if one of them is questioned all are. So fear or not, legitimacy or not, Alicent can’t just ignore three dragon riders. Binding the two branches together was the only way for everyone to stay alive.

[@Brian-wj7gb]

I think the old king technically usurped his nieces so I think that’s why he went all that way to invent Salic law and keep women of the throne despite Andal law being perfectly okay with Rhaenys, to protect his own legitimacy maybe.

[@jjh2456]

@@jennyyyy189 all of those kids were bastards.

[@yasmina3999]

@@jennyyyy189 no, it's not a law. Westeros isn't absolute monarchy because it is too decentralized.For example, the lords have their own armies and each kingdom has retained its traditions and customs even under Aegon the first.

[@angellover02171]

A Jace and Helana marriage would probably punt the Dance to the next generation. There are other political movers and shakers that would cause problems later on.

[@alialmuhanna4938]

Let’s keep in mind that all this is HOTD and not F&B; in the former, yes, Alicent is technically in the right. While in F&B, Alicent and the powers in Oldtown are actively trying to delegitimize Rhaenyra’s claim. Now someone might say that Alicent there is still in the right to want Aegon II to inherit because that’s the law, despite it being sexist / misogynist. However, the Oldtown conspiracy started since before Jaehaerys I died, meaning this is a situation they deliberately created, all just to destroy the dragons.

[@jennyyyy189]

Yes! I completely believe that too but I also think that Alicent could have been the Hightower to ruin their chances of executing that plan and keeping the peace.

[@yasmina3999]

I think Aegon, Aemond and Daeron would be in danger anyway, all but Helaena, because of her gender.The offer of Jace/Helaena helped no one but Rhaenyra and Jace, since what threatens their claim are the male offspring of Alicent. Because of this marriage, in case Alicente's sons were in danger, the greens wouldn't be able to use their strongest argument against Rhaenyra's claim - Rhaenyra committed the highest treason and Jace, Luke, Joffrey are bastards.

[@alexandravalerious3274]

the marrige proposition that might have worked if viserys was smarter was rhaenyra and aegon ii (in the books since thier ages are different in the shows) like yes this sort of still screws over rhaenyra but it ties the two branches of viserys line together and keeps a civil war from happening (granted he'd still have to contend with daemon). viserys reallly set the stage for a civil war, rhaenyra played her cards badly, and the greens couldn't afford not to defend their own position smh a mess and the worst part is the dance of dragons ends the dragons which really ends the targaryens being able to do what they want (no dragons to back them anymore). i find it interesting in the show rhaenyra doesnt get a political education or an education that would befit the heir the way ned stark teaches robb, theon, and jon or tywin tries to impose on jamie. or even a Ladys education that margery gets from olena and cat gives sansa.

[@CIA_ACE]

One thing to think on in the book is Rhaenys, and Rhaenyra’s mother both have has black hair in the books… that’s half of the grandparents… so the boys are not nearly as illegitimate in the book as in the show. It’s a more black and white change for the show to do it this way and it’s not necessarily bad but it is interesting. The match makes even more sense in the books but the motivation of the Hightower’s in the books is almost vertically more sinister. In the books at this point the claim of the eldest male heir meant to rule rather than the eldest heir is not 100% accurate.

[@nonjabulomangoro1871]

I think Rhaenys has the purple eyes though. The show doesn't have that so... Aemma Arryn couldn't have had black hair, the Aryyns are blond, and Daella Targaryen was Aemma's mother. In the books it is still pretty clear because they are tracing parentage not just black haired Targaryens. Rhaenys's mother is a Boratheon, there is almost no reason why Rhaenyra's children are not blond and purple eyed, especially when Baela and Rhaena are right there. And in the books it's not just hair and eyes.

[@Alix27516]

@@nonjabulomangoro1871 Rhaenyra's children could have gotten the dark hair from their Arryn blood, Lady Jeyne Arryn had brown hair and some other Arryn did too, that's why almost no one openly questions Robert Arryn parternity in the main series.

[@nonjabulomangoro1871]

@@Alix27516 Like I said, it's not just the house but the families of both the Offspring. Robert Arryn's mother is a Tully, who have a mix of auburn and brown hair, so yes Robert Arryn being brown of hair isn't farfetched, I think Robert Arryn does have the blue eyes that both the Arryns and Tullys have(so you could assume that people thought his blue eyes were from the Arryn side). And Jeyne Arryn's mother(I don't think they say who she is) is not Aemma Arryn's mother(Daella Targaryen). It's why Robert Boratheon accepts Cersei's children as his own, because they look like Lannisters and she *is* a Lannister, same thing with the Starks, all but Arya look Tully, because their mother is a Tully. The show makes it all about the hair, however, Daemon's quip about Joffery looking remarkably like the Captain of the city watch shows you just how far the resemblance goes. I'm sure more than 80% of the Westerosi are brown haired, so why did people only assume it was Harwin Strong's children? Because in most other ways, the eyes, the nose, facial structure, complexion, they did not resemble the Targaryens or Velaryons.

[@jjh2456]

@@nonjabulomangoro1871 no they don’t. They resemble Harwin Strong. They only thing the Strong boys got from their mother is the fact they can ride dragons which any dragonseed can do.

[@mercuriology45]

this is true, this is why in the books their legitimacy is less questionable. Ppl need to understand rhaenyra wasn’t exactly and underdog in the dance, if the ppl actually cared abt her bastards she wouldn’t have been supported as hard as she was.

[@Unlimited78]

The only thing that could have prevented the dance was the betrothal of Aegon II and Rhaenyra. Of course Viserys being the stubborn fool that he is turned it down. I don't know what your opinion is on it, but I think deep down Viserys didn't want to do it because he was afraid that it would take power away from his precious Rhaenyra, but I think she would have gotten the better end of the deal. We all know that Aegon had no desire to govern so most likely Rhaenyra would have wielded all the power anyway. All Aegon would have to do is provide her a couple of heirs and then he could return to his drinking.

[@jessemeyer86]

The more I watch your videos the more I think i might be switching to the Greens

[@khfan4life365]

Even if Helaena was treated well by Rhaenyra and Jace, she would have been endangered by close proximity to Daemon.

[@janellejulianajoy]

That part! So many people overlook Daemon and even Corlys. This man is allowing Jace to use his name! Jace marrying Baela places his grandchild on the throne. All this does is alienate the support she has.

[@ingolfringolfrson1577]

Love your work, you blow those other ASOIAF theory crafters out of the water.

[@MungoMcGhee]

Which theorists in particular?

[@brona497]

Lmao what? This channel is so biased its sad

[@ingolfringolfrson1577]

Lightbringer and Jacobs come to mind with their sometimes awesome, sometimes completely deranged theories and takes. Lightbringer especially has some weird biases and his interaction with viewers and collaborators is lacking. Hill’s alive has consistency and doesn’t try to force the source material to fit their premises. I also don’t feel like I’m listening to a sleaze bag trying to mansplain feminism or feminist takes here. I actually trust Hill’s perspective on such things. I don’t see any bias in this channel at all, in fact I see a breath of fresh air from the other channels in that regard.

[@brona497]

@@ingolfringolfrson1577 There are a lot of wacky theories out there, however to say there's no bias here? Very pro Green, very anti Dany. Very biased

[@ingolfringolfrson1577]

@@brona497 I don’t see any of that as bias, if anything I see all the bias in the other direction, pro black pro Dany, muh quean who can never do wrong ever ever. Can’t stand it. This channel is a breath of fresh air in that regard.

[@anastasialim696]

I keep re-watching this video. I really love your pov of the whole situation and not pro-blacks like almost everyone are.

[@SoilToSoul]

I always love your in depth analysis of all things ASOIAF. You never fail to bring in all the details and require us to think critically in ways that the surface of the story, especially the TV versions, don't have us do. Thank you!

[@maxsara8623]

Thank you for putting subtitles❤ amazing video

[@captainziggy82]

Viserys shoulda just married Aegon to her when he came of age. God Rhaenyra made so many mistakes, then tried to cover it up for years lol

[@Hikaru3899]

I think the dance would’ve happened at some point no matter what but there are some ways it could’ve been avoided in this context. 1. Viserys never remarried. 2. He named aegon heir. 3. Haleana and jace get married. 4. When Lionel died not bringing back Otto or anybody sympathetic to the greens instead someone like Corlys or daemon

[@khadytheowl8860]

in what way do you think that making corlys or daemon (who are sympathetic to the blacks) is more logic than otto as a hand of the king would've stooped the war, because they will definetly kill the greens, if you think that both of them will follow the peace road then you're mistaken. What aliscent said about the blacks getting rid of her kids may sound weird but it was very likely, especially with someone like aemond with vaegar there was defintly a day when the war was gonna start even if she was queen.

[@Hikaru3899]

@@khadytheowl8860 i disagree. allowing otto to come back and basically stack the small council with green supporters and undermine rhaenyra is essentialy what finally set off the Dance. there is plenty of negative things to say about the blacks but never did rhaenyra show any hostility to her half siblings. never once did she threaten them or make plans to get rid of them not sure where you are getting that from.

[@khadytheowl8860]

@@Hikaru3899 in my opinion saying that corelys and daemon will be a safe choice to protect rhaeneyra is unfair to viserys's other side of the family, it is the equivalent of saying making aegon king with otto as hand will stop the dance, if that idea was juste do you think that rhaeneyra will accept it ? no of course. my idea is your reasoning about the hand choice is the main reason why the king is being in favor of his daughter. believe me corelys and daemon are more strategic as if not more than otto is just that people cannot see the way how they play the game. will you trust someone who will do anything just to put his name in the ironthrone even when the kids are not related to him? similar to daemon who was obviously in the books as ambitious as anyone else, marrying the next bachlorette to rhaeneyra, hating the green kids just because the were born and the cake marrying the heir because with other posible choices that was the easiest way to power for someone down the ladder of ruling and now he has also kids with her. it is reason , rhaeneyra as queen will sooner than later target the greens the only threat to her claims her kids and especially daemon's kids.

[@Hikaru3899]

@@khadytheowl8860 I get what your saying. But it doesn’t matter if it’s unfair to the greens because no matter what side you are on the greens are the usurpers wether we think they are justified or not is irrelevant. Because they are the usurpers depriving them of the means of usurping would have prevented the dance. Now I do agree daemon putting daemon as hand could’ve been dangerous for rhaenyras half siblings. So probably making corlys hand would’ve been the best choice since he had the most to gain from things staying exactly as they were in the line of succession. Despite knowing rhaenyras children weren’t his by blood he seemed cool with them inheriting driftmark and he didn’t seem aggressive to the greens

[@faaf4950]

Making daemon hand was more beneficial for greens😅 since everyone would have seen what a future is waiting for them with him as their king consort

[@Secretgirl97]

My main criticism of Rhaenyra’s actions in this situation is that she didn’t push the marriage harder to her father and get it forced by royal decree. Obviously she was pretending to be nice about it but eh. It would have been terrible for the Greens but great for her, so at least I would appreciate the cunning of her ambition to protect her sons and her own power XD She’s too much like her father in this case, not willing to be tyrant in a situation that requires some if she wanted to pull it off. If you’re gonna do something revolutionary, you better have the guts and smarts to pull it off as well as possible or its just gonna be a mess. And it was a mess so 🤷🏻‍♀️ not ruthless or smart enough in this case

[@Secretgirl97]

If she played her cards right at least Jace would be closer to power, and he was, personality wise IMO, one of the few people who had a good combination of smarts, strategy and kindness. A kind of leader worth fighting for. Very rare in Westeros, so its a shame she was too delusional about her situation to ensure he became King in the long run.

[@Secretgirl97]

Tbh i think the first point of no return was when Viserys didn’t listen to Otto and marry Rhaenyra to Aegon. Obviously I understand why, Aegon was a baby, but in hindsight Otto really saw the writing on the wall. She could have had some bastards in the meantime while waiting for Aegon to reach puberty and not have them vie for the throne at all, if she really liked Harwin so much. Just have them chill as cupbearers or knights. If she wasn’t the sole reigning monarch (ie, if Aegon were King Regnant as well) her siring of bastards would have been less of a scandal imo, so long as they did have legitimate children in the long run. But Daemon might have killed baby Aegon so that would have been a different problem XD

[@HillsAliveYT]

Well I'm assuming that they didn't have her push for this because it would have radically changed the storyline from the books in a really weird way, but the fact that they inserted this suggestion at all is still a curious switcheroo in the book to TV translation.

[@Secretgirl97]

@@HillsAliveYT oh yeah it would be a different story. just writing my little mental fanfiction on how everyone could possibly survive but tbh its not looking good for them XD

[@ozymandias-saidcomorian3871]

The same way the Green's peace offer was, "We give you a holdfast you already have and take 2 hostages to keep you in line."

[@HillsAliveYT]

Oh yeah totes, but nobody mistakes that offer as a generous attempt to make peace, whereas quite a few people treat the Jace and Helaena betrothal proposal as just that.

[@ulisesleon2870]

@@HillsAliveYT to be fair if it wasn't cause the greens control to some extent the citadel, and did some fucky things behind the scenes the black would've swept the greens ( like by the time kl falls) Aegon is crippled, and sunfyre is too, and Effectively the greens are down to two dragons against the blacks Caraxes, vermithor, Seasmoke, sheepsteeler, Silverwing, Syrax ( effectively if not for the nettles deal ; which is mega sus, and the two betrayers which again sus) The war was lost, so i think .... discounting maester shananigans, it was on alicent's kid's best interest to play nice long term.

[@made-line7627]

What is this fresh heaven? And I do think that a large part of why people were so outraged at Alicent's rejection of the betrothal is because they believe it sullies the reputation of "badass good girl" Rhaenyra, who must have had good intentions when she made the offer. If she made it for the reasons you've stated, then it impeaches her golden heart and brings her down to the level of everyone else playing the game. But you're completely right in that it doesn't make her evil. It's a choice many would have made, and makes sense in her situation. To pretend that it was some 100% altruistic, kumbaya, family-mending offer is just naive.

[@riyamathili4656]

New video!!!! I was patiently waiting for it!! And I agree with everything you said here. The more I think about it the less the blacks' claim to the throne seems plausible. The only way Rhaenyra could have claimed it was through marrying Aegon. If I'm not wrong Martin in AGOT wrote in the appendix that Rhaenyra was a year older than Aegon. He changed that obviously but if that was still the case things could have a gone a bit differently

[@thekage100]

Yessss you are back! Cant wait to watch ur amazing take!

[@heidischeffler8976]

It’s not possible for Viserys to legitimized. By in universe cannon, simply sleeping with Rhaenyra is high treason. And by claiming that Jace is the legitimate son of Laenor, and therefore the heir apparent - all parties are committing high treason. Vis could not “legitimatize” Jace as the simply act of doing so is saying that high treason was committed. That is the reason why it was such a big deal

[@bhagyasankar2070]

while i agree with 90% of the video & i would say you did a great job presenting alicent's pov thoughts on the betrothal, there is a chance the dance would have been avoided simply because if the betrothal happened, alicent & her dragon riding boys would not have risen against rhaenyra & a united house of the dragon (united on paper due to necessity atleast) could have crushed any rebellion, if the lords even dared without a spearhead to their side like the alicent & her children. But still, there is a risk to helaena, esp in the form of daemon & it is understandable from alicent's pov to not take that risk. There is ofc, the chances of a dance happening between jace's (& helaena's, in the hypothetical future where dance was avoided due to the betrothal) line & aegon iii's line(ofc only if rhae still married daemon & had ageon iii, [if i remember correctly, rhae proposed the betrothal while leanor was still alive & she never considered a future with daemon]) ps: i love your analysis & i would like your opinion on one thing - for legitimizing the strong boys, rhae have to admit that she did put bastards in succession line, which is treason in the eyes of westeros right? so is legitimization is even a viable option for her? ofc she or viserys(most likely) could push it through it as a part of king's law or even better, targaryen exceptionalism doctrine backed by the hard power that is the might of a whole host of adult dragons.

[@HillsAliveYT]

I mean, as far as legitimizing them being an option for her, yes and no. Clearly, putting illegitimate children into the line of succession after her would have been a HUGE deal and a very unpopular choice, and there is a very real possibility that Viserys would have been pressured to switching his heir to Aegon and essentially taking Rhaenyra and her children out of the running for the Iron Throne. However, leaving their legitimacy as a question is clearly the more dangerous prospect, and just personally speaking, if I were given the choice between just admitting to having bastards and potentially losing the throne because of it versus keeping the current status quo but putting my children in a position where they may be murdered and putting myself in a position where I will have to kill people in order to maintain this tenuous situation, I'd choose the safety over power.

[@ulisesleon2870]

@@HillsAliveYT there's a few issues here one is that admiting to them being bastards kinda fucks them over long term, like they effectively lose any sort of societal stand they may have had, and it also creates a massive power vaccum in the riverlands, this is to say, this boys would be preferable rulers of harrenhall over the creepy asshole , who is black mailing alicent over feet pics. which also gives house tully the issue of a vassal who is effectively more powerful then the tully's

[@bhagyasankar2070]

​@@HillsAliveYT yeah! i feel, rhea & her kids would be more safe if she did relinquish, her kids aren't threat to aegon ii & the peace treaty otto made in canon just before war makes me think he won't further antagonize her just for the sake of it & would probably leave her alone on her island. Daemon might still be a problem though. i feel like dance is inevitable for the targaryens once they grow to have a certain no.of dragons. If not the crisis between greens & blacks, then another succession crisis down the line will happen. The dragon will eat its own tail

[@diablorose]

Such a good channel

[@laurenthomas7074]

I think is the far the best and more thoughtful and insightful ASoIaF analysis channel on KZbin! I absolutely love your takes and the way you think about these characters

[@benjamingarrett9960]

Deposing King Aerys was against the law. That is literally the #1 law in Westeros.

[@jjs1300000]

This is why I’m team green, Rhaenyra constantly makes mistakes and gets away with it. There’s no way the nobility would support Jacaerys as king.

[@ulisesleon2870]

unless they were basically gutted,through war, and violence. like jace could've ended up as king long term , just would have required a bit of political murder, and just enough violence to make it happen.

[@Piotr12396]

Jace would have become a great king, i mean he is bastard but better than those non bastards

[@jenndowden8131]

I have found your insights regarding the patriarchal political aspects of all of this fascinating & informative. You did help highlight nuances that were previously lost on me.

[@yuexin393]

if we only looking at the show's perspective and how women and men treated it will surely a double edge sword if Rhaenyra and her heirs were good Helaena will be safe and if they were at precarious situation both side will suffer which brought us back on questioning Viserys' stupid decision to remarried if he was firm on siding his and Aemma's only living child to inherit that throne😠🤡

[@Sairagna]

Nah Viseryis did need to remarry and have more kids, the problem with a female heir is that she could've died in childbirth like her mother and not even leave a child. Men don't have that problem. And Raenyra wasn't in a hurry to get married anyway.

[@yuexin393]

then he shouldn't keep Rhaenyra hoping for something he know is impossible

[@jjh2456]

@@yuexin393 it was possible, but then Rhaenyra had to go mess it up and produce 3 obvious bastards and then put those bastards in line for the throne all with Viserys’ knowledge and inaction.

[@yuexin393]

but remember the reason why she has bastards were also Viserys fault due to Laena vs Alicent debacles Laenor wasn't on her list of choices, to begin with, she needed to marry Laenor in order to appease the Sea Snake even though it was Him who offended the Valeryons and if Rhaenyra was heir he didn't have to remarry he need not offend the wealthiest guy on their land and marry Rhaenyra to Daemon who to match Corlys then maybe their families didn't have civil war losing most of their dragon and weakening them

[@khfan4life365]

Even if Rhaenyra had become queen without issue, there would still be a Dance of Dragons. Rhaenyra's sons are divided between the "Strong bastards" (her sons with Harwin) and "trueborn Targaryens" (her sons with Daemon), sooner or later the realm would divide in two factions anyway. Rhaenyra is the cataclyst of the dance, not Aegon Il.

[@mariogalindez7427]

You offer the best analysis on KZbin for HOTD imo and you've brought me further toward the Greens than I'd ever thought I'd be. You've convinced me that Alicent made the decision she made out of fear and practicality and not pettiness. However, I think if Viserys had ordered the pact to be made, it would have bridged the gap between the two sides in a way that might have prevented war. Even if Helena just became a hostage, that makes war that much less likely

[@liamdenise246]

It was, I'd see it as Heleana being used as a hostage, because even if Rhaenyra did not mean it to be so, Corlys and Daemon would almost certaintly see her as one, although the real issue is that Corlys and Daemon will try to kill her off so Corlys can have Baela married to Jace and Daemon cause he hates hightowers and Baela is his daughter. And, if all her brothers sadly died by mysterious accidents, then she'd be unable to challenger her claim being just a younger sister not a kings son.

[@janellejulianajoy]

I was looking for this comment. Thank you! People ignore Daemon and Corlys...neither would let this slide. I mean, they are welcome to try....but they should also be aware that by the end of the ceremony Jace would be referred to as Strong or Waters as that Velaryon bastard card would be irrevocably revoked.

[@magpie_monster]

god finally someone who understands the h/j marriage wouldn't have solved the entire dance and was actually very dangerous for helaena and alicent.

[@yusufraage8554]

More dangerous than Blood and Cheese.

[@tartnouveau3652]

I don’t think Viserys recognizing Rhaenyra’s kids publicly would have done much. If her highborn husband has recognized them from the beginning. It shouldn’t matter even if they definitely look different. I think their legitimacy would still have been questioned after Viserys died even if he settled it

[@SRosenberg203]

7:37 I think you're overlooking the distinction between the *people of Westeros* and the _Lords of Westeros._ The King's word pretty much _is_ law, and he kinda _can_ do whatever he likes when it comes to the smallfolk and peasant classes. However what Kings like Joffery and Aerys fail to understand, to their detriment, is that treating the Lords of Westeros as though they were peasants is a recipe for disaster. There's no instance where a Targaryen was toppled by a peasant revolt; the closest case is Maegor, but the peasants revolting against him also had the backing and support of several powerful lordly houses across Westeros. Even in pre-Targaryen Westerosi history, I'm not aware of any instances of genuinely successful peasant revolts. Kings are only toppled when they start treating their lordly vassals with the same callous disregard with which they treat the common people.

[@jjh2456]

Rhaenyra was toppled by a peasant revolt. That’s why she had to flee to Dragonstone with the future Aegon III…to her death. The small folk care very much.

[@juny9445]

Good abservation

[@m3rrys0ngstr3ss]

I wonder if this would have been easier for Alicent to swallow if Rhaenyra had actually married Harwin. Yes, it's not a political bonus like her being with Laenor, but Alicent wouldn't feel like she's enabling a lie.

[@HillsAliveYT]

Oh 100% I think that would have made an enormous difference, Rhaenyra's position as heir was sketchy but if she had legitimate children then at least that would take another huge problem off the table.

[@brona497]

Tha was the og plan for the Dance iirc, married a Strong. Didn't matter in the end the dance was still gonna

[@KiraAkari-ShipsTargaryen-vi5fw]

In that version Aegon II was the heir and Rhaenyra usurped him only because she believed she had the right to be the eldest. Martin rewrote it so that Viserys would have at least left a claim to Rhaenyra and so Rhaenyra's position would have some validity. So no, and the drafts never say anything more than curiosity about a story because they are thrown away for a reason.​@@brona497

[@valentineliasfritz115]

Your description of the ramifications on the Greens is quite accurate. Yet, it is not the whole truth and only factoring in the possible losses for them confronted with the possible gains for the Blacks. However, the actual proposal would not only give Rhaenyra a hostage, but Alicent also gains another safety measure. One, that prevents a future civil/family war between the two factions. Their branches are already half-siblings of Viserys, any intermarrying would strengthen their bond and shrink the gap. The possibility of war becomes a reality when the Greens actively decide to claim the throne, no matter her intentions. Even if one of the sides abdicated, their successors would still be seen as the rightful heirs by a big part of Westeros. The only chance to solve this would be to eventually unite the bloodlines and decide the line of succession on a second Great Council. Also, a politically savvy house like the Hightowers should come up with the only real solution to bastard problem. Rhaenyra can not admit they are bastards by legitimizing them and the realm will not accept (unproven) bastards on the seat of Driftmark and the Iron Throne. All Targaryens need to conjure up a plausible death for only these three boys (without letting the Greens know that Leanor still lives) or send them to the wall (maybe even give them new lands on the stepstones to rule, that exclude them from the Iron Throne). Then, Aegon the Older will marry his firstborn son with the (hopefully firstborn) daughter of Aegon the Younger. After that, both sides have a stake in the Iron Throne, enough family ties to be safe and the realm can sigh in relief. Of course, such a teamwork is very unlikely after these decades of mistrust, but no side can without a fight, even if the other one simply abdicates. This would also be more in line with the millennial old policy of House Hightower, but for some reason Otto choose to change this in his bid for the Iron Throne.

[@Brian-wj7gb]

I think though you make a perfect argument from a traditional Westorosi perspective, the fact is that Dragons rule and the Strong Boys all had dragons. So while Alicent got the legal politics right, she got the realpolitik wrong. Even the Dragonseeds almost became kings because they had dragons, despite their lowborn status. The fact is all Alicent really had at the outbreak was Vhagar and Tessarion (Helaena wasn't going to ride to battle, Sunfyre should not have been risked and Aegon II's children were too young to ride their young dragons), and since Corlys didn't flip, all the dragon power was on the Black side. In my opinion, Alicent should not have fanned the rumours and should simply have said it must be the Arryn or Baratheon (i.e. Rhaenys was black hair in the books) genes popping up, so be it. No lord was going to look for trouble on his own without dragons, and Aegon wasn't going to challenge any way. Im my opinion, Alicent should have went ahead with the marriage, and secured lucrative lordships for her other sons. While there is no guarantee that any way will work perfectly, the fact that even if she managed to disinherit the Strong boys, they're old enough to ride their three dragons and will be supported by Meleys plus Syrax plus Caraxes. Moreover there's Moondancer and Stormcloud. Alicent is lucky she had Vhagar, because she is almost Ned Starking herself.

[@yusufraage8554]

She was reaching for power and that got her whole family killed.

[@Brian-wj7gb]

@@yusufraage8554 Unfortunately so, in the end , the dragon math simply wasn't on her side, and she should have known that anything other than a clean sweep was going to put her family in serious danger. Maybe that's why Corlys didn't care they weren't Laenor's kids, he wasn't going to say no to three new "Velaryon" dragons.

[@op4lnah527]

To me where their argument breaks down is you don’t marry Helena and Jace.. so you marry your daughter to a future usurping king… just like you said The Strong Boys have dragons and allies. I genuinely don’t understand how the proposal was a bad idea

[@Brian-wj7gb]

@@op4lnah527 I totally agree with you, Aegon Helaena union basically added nothing to the table, and did nothing for the unity of the royal house. I mean, if Alicent wanted guarantees for her kids, she might as well go for broke and just use her regent powers to go freehold and reformed the iron throne into more of a first among equals thing (for dragon riders). Dragon proliferation was happening in front of their very eyes, and they just couldn't read the writing on the wall.

[@lubnaalmallah]

such a poor girl Helena, she’s the real victim of both greens and the blacks

[@ayanna6327]

I agree it was fairly obvious that Rhaenyra's proposal to marry Jacaerys to Helaena was 90% political. I don't see a problem with that, because that's how the vast majority of marriages in Westeros occur. People acting as if Rhaenyra is some sort of snake for doing this truly baffle me. Marriages for love rarely occur in this universe, and Helaena was never going to be the exception for that. Yes, marrying Jace to Helaena would've kept the Greens in line, and that's exactly how it would've unfolded if it would have been a marriage between any of the great and/or noble houses. The quickest way to establish allies is through a marriage pact as has been done throughout ASOIAF. And Rhaenyra desperately needed the Greens as allies since those were the main ones plotting against her. Striking a deal with them would be the best political play in this situation. I do think it's the better option. Unless the Greens went forward with their rebellion against Rhaenyra anyway, this wouldn't have ended in a hostage situation. It also ensures that Rhaenyra's camp can't act out against the Hightowers without looking like turncoats. It essentially would've forced everyone to "shut up and get along", which was the only type of getting-along this situation could've ended in. I highly doubt Helaena's personal safety was even given consideration, because she was wed to Aegon, who everyone around him knows is terrible and doesn't respect her. I've seen arguments for and against legitimization from people who align with Team Green. Half of that side of the fandom says that Rhaenyra would've solved everything had she legitimized the Strong Boys, and then the other half says that it would've done nothing because of what happened with Aegon IV, and that they would always be a problem no matter what. So honestly, I don't know about the legitimization argument, what I do know is that legitimization can often mean nothing in terms of inheritance if there are born-legitimate sons around, so I lean more towards the argument that legitimization would've done nothing for the situation at hand aside from just giving Jace, Luke and Joffrey a fancy piece of paper. But who knows? Jace takes himself seriously, so maybe he would've been welcomed as king even with the circumstances of his birth and legitimization being public knowledge. (Edited for tone because apparently this came off as "arrogant.")

[@jjh2456]

Why do y’all like assuming people are dumb. The arrogance of your last paragraph is what gets me.

[@ayanna6327]

@@jjh2456 When did I ever assume people are dumb? Disagreeing with people is not equivalent to calling them dumb. And what arrogance are you referring to exactly?

[@jjh2456]

@@ayanna6327 Jace’s bastardy is an open secret. The entire realm knows so he will not have any support at all at court or the realm. Your scenario is one that assumes everybody will remain ignorant to that fact and that will not happen.

[@ayanna6327]

@@jjh2456 I never said Jace's wasn't. Legitimization would just simply change it from being an open-secret, to just open, which may or may not backfire depending on how the optics are handled. If it remains an open-secret, then there is not real "proof" (in the Westerosi sense) that is actually "real" or not, no matter how obvious it is. This can backfire because it's essentially dishonest to the crown. If he is legitimized, then it becomes open, and this can backfire because it can easily be exploited by those who want to usurp the throne. Both scenarios are double-edged swords, that's the point I am trying to get at. And as for support, bastards have gained support for their causes rather they were legitimized or not. Tommen wasn't, but is still supported and Daemon Blackfyre was legitimized and had much support. Ofc there are people who definitely didn't support them, but that's to be expected for anyone. To say he would have zero support is false, because different houses have different reasons to support certain claims.

[@jennyyyy189]

@@jjh2456 I see you all over the comments being arrogant to anyone who doesn't share your view. People can have different opinions and they happen to have theirs.

[@taniesha64]

It seems Helena is far worse marrying her own brother. They treat her like crap.

[@jamesraiken2257]

I love how you used the word "treason"'. That's exactly what it is.

[@eric2500]

Attempting to make peace with hostages is normal for the setting (Dark Ages/ Middle Ages), but it would not make sense in this setting, with the suspect parentage as an issue.

[@mariavi33]

Rhaenyra: Alicent, I have just started realizing that my actions have consequences. So here is my proposal; you're going to hand over your only daughter to me to make sure that your side won't move against mine and make yourself and her accomplices to me committing high treason and a massive sin. In exchange, I will give one of your sons one dragon egg that may or may not hatch from my dragon, who has just laid a clutch of eggs and is probably going to lay another sometime in the near future. Alicent: No Some people: how could Alicent say no to this perfect offer? She's just so selfish and greedy

[@Mic-Mak]

Happy new year! I see you're starting 2023 very *Strong.* 💪🏿 Keep up the good work! This is chef's kiss! 👌🏿

[@maggiecramer8154]

I mean... both the rebellion against arys and against joffery WERE treason.

[@tripledigit4835]

“It’s only treason if we lose”

[@tsuritsa3105]

If Viserys wanted his daughter to rule he needed to change the law. As long as he was only arguing that Rhaenyra should be the special exception, her rule was going to be frought. Even a change in law would cause problems, but at least then he would have been unambiguous in his intentions. Of course, that kind of move might have led to attemots to remove Viserys in favor of Aegon earlier, or even Daemon

[@romantherger3518]

In the books it kinda makes sense, but the fact that they casted a biracial actor, the character having blond platinum hair and then having the boys turn out white brunettes ain’t mathing up.

[@jjh2456]

It’s not supposed to match up. The audience is supposed to understand unequivocally that Rhaenyra’s oldest 3 sons are bastards. There isn’t supposed to be any other interpretation.

[@yeol174]

Both existence of Alicent’s children (with Aegon’s claim to the throne being logical) and Rhaenyra being the heir to the throne (especially counting having Jace as her heir and Daemon as her husband) are the problem. And as you said, will always be the problem. One thing that could have solved it, was betrothing Rhaenyra and Aegon (at the expense of Jace, Luke and Joffrey not existing, which fans certainly wouldn’t like but oh well) and having them marry when Aegon is like 13 or older. And this was suggested by Otto, however Viserys failed to see reasoning behind it.

[@nont18411]

Speaking of the misogynistic system, would you address how whenever male characters in ASOIAF universe were sexually violated, both the books and the show brushed it aside and providing excuses for us not to sympathize with them? - Littlefinger got raped by Lysa Tully while he was drunk, which makes him probably the biological father of Sweetrobin too since it’s revealed that Lysa got pregnant from it and Jon Arryn told her to have an abortion but it’s never confirmed that she had an abortion or not. The books brushed this aside because Littlefinger is a villain anyway so maybe it’s acceptable but if GRRM was really self-aware about this, I think this is the reason Littlefinger developed his hatred for the highborn people and started becoming a con man while choosing to have brothels as his base of operation as a twisted reflection on his sexual trauma. They said it was because of his unrequited love from Catelyn. I said it’s actually his projection on all the lords and ladies thanks to what Lysa had done. This will also explain his creepiness towards Sansa as well because a sexually-abused person who had never experience any healthy relationship in his life will have a warped perception on sexuality in general and think that being a potential sex offender (aka p-dophile) is a normal thing. - Gendry got raped by Melisandre when she put the leeches on his genital. He complained about it to the Hound and the Hound told him he should be grateful and stop being a pussy (the same Hound who moans about “mah trauma” of being disfigured by his brother all the time). The show treats Gendry’s trauma as a joke. - Theon, Varys and Unsullied got their dicks cut off and we all know it’s for the sake of dick jokes mainly said by our “morally pure hero of the story” Tyrion Lannister. Like the Hound, Tyrion self pity about his evil dad abusing him all the time while is comfortable at making fun of these abused people. - Jon Snow being groomed by Ygritte. Their relationship in the show was romantic because both Kit Harington and Rose Leslie are grown adults but in the books, it’s said that Jon was 16 and Ygritte was 19 which means Jon wasn’t on the age of consent yet and Ygritte seduced this impressionable young boy to have sex with her, while also revealed that she was delight too that she got to take Jon’s virginity (since she had an experience before). Not only she had Jon impregnated her for the sake of “love” and pleasure, she also did it for a political reason to sway Jon to her cause which makes the line “You know nothing, Jon Snow” becoming a lot more sinister. But as usual, the books and show treat Ygritte as a good person instead of a manipulative woman who sexually exploited Jon for her own faction’s political gain.

[@jjh2456]

Oh…nobody is ready for THAT conversation.

[@Janary08]

@@jjh2456 wasnt the littlefinger thing discussed in her video "csa, child exploitation, the creeps of asoiaf" video? (This isnt the full title cuz it was long and i can't remember it well)

[@nont18411]

@@Janary08 Yeah, I just watched it. Yes, it is. But unfortunately, Littlefinger wasn’t the only case about this and all of these cases are either portrayed as a joke, a romantic thing or completely forgotten.

[@Skrzacik]

Very good point! I also thought about the scene where Aemond and Cole visit the brothel while looking for Aegon, and we learned that Aemond was raped when he was 13 years old by that prostitute. The actor clearly showed the signs of discomfort, shame (he looked down, couldn't look her in the eye), it made me so sad that so many people ignored it or even thought he actually enjoyed it.

[@janejane6754]

The dance would've happened regardless. In the original draft Rhaenyra had 3 sons and they were all legitimate no doubts of their parentage. The war happened anyway. Jace and Helaenas marriage might have been a temporary bandage as it opens up the line of succession to be opposed by Helaenas nephews from Aegon but seriously. Who would support usurping the throne from Jacerys or Helaenas children. I mean the main houses. Even with illegitimate children Rhaenyra still had the majority of the lords keep to their oaths and support her. Under Jace and Helaena who can actually usurp the throne from their children? The hightowers won't do it. They already have their bloodline on the throne. Also the realm is still reeling from Maegor as a tyrant they won't support usurping the throne again especially if Aegon the second isn't the one fighting for the right to rule as the first born son of Viserys. Sorry for any confusion. English is my second language.

[@amukhoza857]

I honestly don’t think any of the Hightowers would have taken Helena safety very seriously when push came to shove. I think that Alicent would never give Rhynera this win. Rhynera has had freedom , choice and love Alicent had none of those things she would never help the girl who had everything and betrayed her

[@chingizzhylkybayev8575]

THANK YOU