Was the Novus Ordo a Mistake? (Dr. Ed Feser)

[@harrybass3]

A few years ago you had Dr Scott Hahn on and he literally said " we need to appreciate the Novus ordo is inexhaustible and valid but also need to respect the objective superiority of the "Traditional Latin Mass" . The comparison between Latin Mass Parish growth and the death of NO parishes should say enough.

[@BronzeDanglerUSPSA]

While I understand that this is extremely anecdotal and only that. I am a Baptist convert and went to mass with my wife for years and all I’ve ever known is the novous ordo. I believe that the ordinary form of the mass helped me understand the church better which eventually led to my conversion.

[@chrisloftson6705]

The thing is you don't have a way of comparing your experience with a counterfactual. It's not even simply trying to compare your response to the NO with what you think your response to the TLM would have been. The entire Church would have gone on a different trajectory if the NO was never implemented. It would have had wide-ranging ripple effects over the past 60 years for the NO to have never existed. That would have had unknown effects on your personal interaction with Catholicism.

[@PR1V1LE6ED]

Go to a Traditional Latin Mass, even if it is far away.

[@johnaugustyn9179]

Thanks be to God for your conversion!! Don’t let anyone discredit your conversion if you were drawn in by the novus ordo

[@CanuckNews-fv3qj]

I believe that was the intend was to protestantize the mass. we even smashed our statues and painted over our icons to convert protestants.

[@BronzeDanglerUSPSA]

@@johnaugustyn9179 thank you for this response. Glory to God !!! Must of the other responses want to tell me why im wrong or how the NO is terrible even though it led to my conversion. God Bless you. Merry Christmas

[@billkolb1305]

The fact that you’re asking the question says a lot… Seems like we are still waiting on the Springtime to arrive.

[@Zijalo]

Hi Matt, Your perspective on this matter is one of the rare things that frustrates me about Pints with Aquinas. Otherwise, I love your program, and God bless you for the work you do. However, it seems to me that your view is heavily influenced by the cultural dominance of the Anglosphere, which often overshadows the experiences of non english cultures, nations and traditions. Have you ever deeply considered how Mass was experienced in the 1940s and 1950s? In contrast to today’s boutique Latin Masses attended by highly devoted believers, for most people, it was far from the idealized reverence you describe. For many, it was alienating and uninspiring, particularly for those on the periphery of the faith who struggled to connect with its inaccessible language and rituals. Moreover, the Novus Ordo has played a transformative role in allowing small nations and linguistic communities, often subjugated by imperial or authoritarian powers, to reclaim their cultural and spiritual identity. The use of vernacular languages in the liturgy has been a vital act of cultural preservation, especially for nations that endured centuries of colonial domination or political oppression. For Slavs, for example, Latin was historically imposed as a liturgical language by imperial powers, erasing indigenous traditions. Even before this imposition, the early Church in Slavic regions used Old Church Slavonic-a constructed liturgical language designed to unify various Slavic peoples in worship while remaining intelligible to them. And let’s not forget the origins of Christian worship. The earliest liturgies of the Church were celebrated in intimate, communal settings, with the congregation gathered in a circle. Worship was profoundly participatory, and the priest led as part of the community, not apart from it. The hierarchical and distant style of the Latin Mass developed much later, shaped by the political and cultural needs of the medieval Church rather than by the example of Christ and the Apostles. While the Latin Mass undeniably holds aesthetic and spiritual value for some, it’s crucial to recognize that the Novus Ordo serves as a more inclusive and culturally enriching form of worship for countless communities around the world.

[@renee5748]

🎉BRAVO…WELL SAID!

[@Consume_Crash]

One can take what you're saying and draw from this that the Church was just asleep or borderline unjust since the Apostolic Age until the 1960s, which is absurd and thankfully the fruit confirms that. To say the TLM basically developed out of pragmatism and was not influenced by the example of Christ and the Apostles is pretty disrespectful and just false too and seems to deny the Holy Spirit's influence on the Church and the liturgy for centuries. I think you touch on a point about other cultures that can resonate, but deference should still be paid to the tradition, and in most cases the tradition is what formed those countries' Catholicism. The New World was largely Christianized by post-Trent Catholicism and that's not to their detriment necessarily.

[@SwordsmanRyan]

I think most of what you said is well-worn propaganda without a basis in fact.

[@tomredd9025]

Thank you for the excellent response. The institution of the Novus Ordo Missal has such profound meaning and draws so many people closer to God. It certainly did that for me. As a Slovak, I have a great admiration for the incredible apostles to the Slavs, Saints Cyril and Methodius of the 9th Century. Even though, they were sent from Constantinople, they went to Great Moravia (basically old Czechoslovakia) and developed a Roman Rite vernacular liturgy in their new Slavic alphabet. There are archaeological fragments of the Roman Rite from that time period They even traveled to Rome and the Pope blessed their Roman Rite Missals in the Slavonic language on the altar of St. Peters. The Pope also approved their work in the famous papal bull, "Industriae Tuae." However, as you pointed out, the use of Latin became a tool for imposing a political power. The Church in Great Moravia was under attack by Frankish powers to be and Frankish Bishops were their tools to gain influence in the area. Unfortunately, these powers won out and the Slavonic Liturgy was suppressed in favor of Latin. St. Methodius, who was the papal appointed archbishop, was even jailed for two years by the Frankish authorities This was in spite of numerous orders from the pope to release him. St. Methodius was finally released but when he soon died, his priests were basically driven out and went east. They continued the use of the Slavonic language but not the Roman Rite. They switched to the Eastern Rite of Constantinople. I often wonder that if the Slavonic Roman Rite had not been suppressed that one of the main selling points of the Protestant Protest, worshiping God in your own language would have been a moot point. The Latinist constantly praise how wonderfully unifying the Latin Liturgy is. On the contrary, it has been a heavy burden for the church. I believe, we lost millions of people to the church through the Protestant Protest and the 1054 split when numerous Eastern Slavs went with Constantinople. God Bless.

[@tomredd9025]

@@Consume_Crash People often seem to forget that first Canon of the beautiful Novus Ordo Missal is basically the Tridentine Canon, so I don't get at all any departure from Liturgical Tradition.

[@jdub3999]

A reverent Novus Ordo is completely dignified worship and approved by the Magisterium.

[@cfban]

The lowest traditional Mass is orders of magnitude better than the most "reverent" and tridentinized Novus Ordo. Neither reverence nor tridentinization was intended for the Novus Ordo. That's another novelty by good and young priests with good intentions who want to reconcile the irreconcilable.

[@jdub3999]

@ the Church disagrees with you. NO is approved worship by the Magisterium. You will be drawn to SSPX or sedevacantism you keep going down this path of pride and righteousness.

[@CrayDave]

@@cfban Sedevacantism is the wrong path Satan will get you. He got me I fell away after awhile and dabbled into to the occult and became possessed. I am possessed currently. They hate the Novus Ordo, also eucharistic miracles and healings take place there. That's Christs way of affirming that he still has not abandon his church. Stay close to the Church and always keep your faith in Jesus and don't forget to pray your rosary daily.

[@cfban]

@@jdub3999 I am not in SSPX, but nothing wrong with it. And the fact that Pope Francis disagrees with me doesn't mean that the Church does. Pope Francis is not the Church.

[@katydidd6321]

Ah, the frequently referenced, "unicorn mass" - turns out its about as easy to find as a unicorn!

[@irodjetson]

When the offertory no longer explicitly presents the bread and wine as a symbolic offering of Christ, the spotless victim, to the Father in atonement for sin, the sacrificial nature of the Mass risks becoming obscured. This theological reduction inevitably affects the faithful's understanding of: The gravity of sin and its consequences. The centrality of Christ’s atoning sacrifice. The necessity of penance and the urgency of salvation. Without this explicit language, Catholics may come to view the Mass primarily as a communal meal or a celebration of the Resurrection, rather than the re-presentation of Christ’s sacrifice on Calvary for the expiation of sins. This shift in focus creates a cascade of doctrinal and moral confusion. When the Mass no longer "clearly and explicitly" proclaims Christ’s sacrifice "for our sins committed to God", moral theology suffers: The faithful may no longer feel called to “take up their cross” or embrace sacrificial living. Topics like penance, modesty, and self-denial become sidelined in favor of vague appeals to mercy divorced from justice. When you truly understand the cascade consequences of what seem like "small changes" in the liturgy, you will see that it's not about simple "reverence and beauty" that's shallow.

[@cavendish2925]

The Novus Ordo helped the Church grow IMMENSELY in Africa and Asia, and we're not just talking about nurturing "cafeteria" Catholics either, but faithful, legitimately godly and Christ-like Catholics (can't say the same for the vast number of Western rad trads I see on social media; some of the most uncharitable and far-from-Christ-as-possible people I've encountered). I'm sure much of the West can't relate, seeing that the sweeping despise for the Novus Ordo mass (to me as an outsider at least) is looking more and more like a "first-world problem" more than an issue of lack of faith and reverence. What needs to be dealt with are liturgical abuses, and I feel like that very problem is being swept under the rug by all the noise of "Novus Ordo=bad" generalization.

[@anthonyjones866]

I encourage you to search online for the article titled “Mythbusting: African Catholicism is a Vatican II Success Story,” which explains that the growth in Catholics in Africa, while beautiful and good, has slowed dramatically since Vatican II. This does NOT mean the council is directly to blame, but it debunks the claims that “Africa is a Vatican II success story” or that “the Novus Ordo helped the Church grow immensely in Africa.” Based on the statistics, the Vetus Ordo (old Mass) actually correlated with a higher growth rate. I hope and pray that the Vetus Ordo continues to grow and bear fruit in Africa (& Asia), as it is the liturgical heritage of Roman rite Catholics in those countries just as much as it is for other Roman Rite Catholics! Just 2 days ago, in fact, South Korea became an official member of the the Fœderatio Internationalis Una Voce (FIUV), which exists to promote the old Mass. The return to our Roman Rite heritage is happening in leaps and bounds, thanks be to God!

[@cfban]

Wrong. Westernization and globalization helped the Church grow in Asia and Africa. It wasn't the Novus Ordo, since protestants have been more effective than Catholics at evangelizing those continents (which was not the case in the age of the great missionaries, who had the Latin Mass). While in paper the numbers of the Church are growing, the growth is outpaced by other Christian denominations and it is not being followed by the same percentage of vocations that missionary efforts had in the past. In other words, the Church in Asia and Africa is growing but vocations there are not rising at the same pace. They will soon face the same crisis of faith and vocation that we do in the West. They're just a few decades behind us. The only way forward as a Church is making a U-turn and going back.

[@folofus4815]

Your premise is false, the church has grown immensely in Africa because the birth rate has grown immensely in Africa. In terms of percentage of population, most of the growth of the church in Africa occurred prior to the 1960s and has stayed roughly the same since then.

[@lesparks126]

How about the Holy Spirit operating in an area not affected by modernism/post-modernism?

[@anthonyjones866]

I encourage you to search online for the article titled “Mythbusting: African Catholicism is a Vatican II Success Story,” which explains that the growth in Catholics in Africa, while beautiful and good, has slowed dramatically since Vatican II. This does NOT mean the council is directly to blame, but it debunks the claims that “Africa is a Vatican II success story” or that “the Novus Ordo helped the Church grow immensely in Africa.” Based on the statistics, the Vetus Ordo (old Mass) actually correlated with a higher growth rate. I hope and pray that the Vetus Ordo continues to grow and bear fruit in Africa (& Asia), as it is the liturgical heritage of Roman rite Catholics in those countries just as much as it is for other Roman Rite Catholics! Just 2 days ago, in fact, South Korea became an official member of the the Fœderatio Internationalis Una Voce (FIUV), which exists to promote the old Mass. The return to our Roman Rite heritage is happening in leaps and bounds, thanks be to God!

[@amymargaretabigail]

I converted to the faith 5 years ago in a reverent, holy, NO parish where I still attend daily. I have visited the closest Latin mass, and I can assure you I would never have converted if that was my only exposure to the Catholic Church.

[@pcola4594]

@@amymargaretabigail And yet I know people who reject the Catholic Church for how elementary and wishy washy they are in everything…. So what’s your point?

[@jfziemba]

why?

[@cfban]

@@amymargaretabigail and if it wasn't for the Latin Mass, I would probably still be living in sin and I would have fallen away from the Faith already. Be grateful for your graces.

[@knight3115]

Exact opposite for me. No way my parish could have converted me. If not for the sspx I would still be a sinful prot

[@RejiThomas1]

The NO mass was probably part of the new evangelism decided in Vatican 2 council, Many changes were made with the purpose to spread the faith. NO does that...i am a convert from anglicanism type to Catholic Church... latin mass preserves the OLD traditions of the Church which is also important.... Both are Catholic Christians.... However in the difficult decision to choose one of the two.... I think it should be NO..... as our faith is apostolic.... whatever decided by the magesterium ... we need to accept that decision.... we have always done that... take the example of Council of Jerusalem in the 1st Century.. we have gone with St peters decision , even though the other side looks very convincing

[@erikriza7165]

I dont know if the old Mass was better than the new Mass. But i know that in the old days, people kept their irreverent idiocies to themselves, or at least did not do them during Mass, or in the Church, when they were in the Presence of the Blessed Sacrament.

[@O_Rei]

It was.

[@cfban]

It absolutely was.

[@Melek0al0Kebir]

Started reading the comments, because why not. Remembered that it often times leads to anger and coldness. Writing this comment, in hope nobody who looks out for our church doesn't investigate deeper than this in the comment section. Will now stop reading the comment section and start praising the lord.

[@slanz1]

The N.O, per se wasn't a mistake. The liberalization and Protestantination of the Liturgy was. A very respectful, traditional, Ad orientum N.O. is actually beautiful.

[@leekflower1]

THIS

[@andrewrolwes6034]

Neither Archbishop Bugnini, head of the committee that created the novus ordo, nor Pope Francis, nor Cardinal Roche, want a respectful, traditional, reverent ad orientem novus ordo. They all have made this incredibly clear. We have to stop trying to fit square pegs in round holes as with Pope Benedict's hermenuetic of continuity.

[@a.r.4093]

@@leekflower1 For me, some of the prayers from the TLM are absolutely beautiful, but are left out in the NO. For example, the prayers at the foot of the altar when the Priest begins the TLM Mass (in my opinion) sets the tone for the rest of the Mass.

[@leekflower1]

@a.r.4093 our faith is so rich there are many nuanced things like this

[@samuelwalker1410]

The NO per se is... Protestantination

[@timrichardson4018]

I'm a new Catholic of a few years. I attend a NO that is very reverent: ad orientem, kneeling at the alter rales, 90% receive the Eucharist on the tongue, and the parishioners themselves are very prayerful and reverent. I've attended TLM and love it too. I've been to more typical NOs and have to admit my eyebrows were raised. I've never seen anything technically inappropriate, but there is a casual posture, or there seems to be, that seems beneath the reverence due to our Lord. Not sure if this is the same issue, but I've been to a mariachi mass which was very weird for me. Obviously it's a Mexican culture thing, so not sure whether to just put it in that bucket or think it irreverent.

[@squirrelandowl7482]

We completely changed the entire liturgy, organically developed over 1500 years of faithful worship, in an instant. We replaced it with an inorganic design by committee liturgy (intended to analogue the Lutheran / Calvinist ceremonies). You tell me.

[@tomredd9025]

We have not changed the entire liturgy. Please read Canon one of the Novus Ordo Missal. It is basically the same as the Tridentine Mass, pared of its many repetitions. The Novus Ordo has brought me closer to God.

[@tomredd9025]

No, it didn't. Please read the Novus Ordo's first Canon. It IS the Tridentine Canon pared of its repetitions.

[@SheldonDsouza126]

I don't understand why we are having this kind of understanding? I am sorry Matt. When you have John Paul II and Benedict XVI who celebrated both forms and never had any issues with either. If they had, they could have easily called for a commission to review the Novus Ordo and change it or do away with it. After listening to Dr. Pitre who is working through the history of the Roman Rite, I find these discussions mischievous. I attend the Novus Ordo celebrated in the Latin language with many things done like how it was done in the Tridentine Mass, the glaring difference being ad orientam (not technically facing east). In my parish we celebrate the Novus Ordo in English and it is as reverent as the Mass celebrated by John Paul II. I don't think it is the extraordinary form or ordinary form that's pushing people away from the Church. It is our way of life, our complacency and lack of theological understanding of what we believe and why we believe. If the Novus Ordo was good enough for John Paul II, I think it is good enough for me. It is high time we seize and desist this discussion. Let's look to work to making the Liturgy accessible to the people instead of creating anarchy within the Church with Tridentine vs Novus Ordo.

[@anthonyjones866]

I have been listening to Dr. Pitre too. You may not be aware, but Benedict XVI did have a huge issue with the Novus Ordo, even if he did not choose to do away with it by some sweeping juridical act (that was never really his style). If anything, the 1965 missal is what the council fathers wanted (since many of they themselves approved it), and it is much closer to the TLM than the reverent Novus Ordo. The Vatican 2 fathers did not call for significantly changed propers, a new calendar, or the omission of “difficult” biblical texts in the lectionary. I believe these innovations are what caused Ratzinger to write the following about how even the most traditional Novus Ordo is seriously at odds with the intentions of the VII fathers: “The problem of the new Missal lies in its abandonment of a historical process that was always continual, before and after St. Pius V, and in the creation of a completely new book, although it was compiled of old material, the publication of which was accompanied by a prohibition of all that came before it, which, besides, is unheard of in the history of both law and liturgy. And I can say with certainty, based on my knowledge of the conciliar debates and my repeated reading of the speeches made by the Council Fathers, that this does not correspond to the intentions of the Second Vatican Council” (Letter to Prof. Wolfgang Waldstein, 1976). I highly encourage you to read the book "The Once and Future Roman Rite" by Dr. Peter Kwasniewski, as it supplements what Dr. Pitre is saying with a deeper focus on the differences between the old and new Masses and the providential merits of the former. I think you will appreciate it as much as I have.

[@pcola4594]

@@SheldonDsouza126 2 things 1: Benedict did have a problem with the NO, he expressed it at depth. 2: just because JP2 might have done something doesn’t make it okay or even good. JP2 kissed the Koran and spoke highly of it and yet it denies the Godship of Christ…. Definitely not something to emulate…

[@TheMightyLevon]

Unequivocally, yes. It was a mistake. So much of the depth, richness, and beauty of the traditional liturgy was stripped away, leaving us with a mess that is barely distinguishable from a Lutheran service.

[@DavidLarson100]

There are a lot of terrible Novus Ordos, but I hardly think that's a feature of that form of the Mass. I grew up Episcopalian and that service is almost beat for beat the same, but it's just done much better for the most part, with classic Anglican hymns etc. Over time, the Catholic Church will improve. Many trad converts have an extremely unrealistic and idealized vision of pre and post Vatican 2 Mass. Read the book "Why Catholics Can't Sing" to see that bad Masses were a huge problem before Novus Ordo too. In fact, the first US bishop John Carroll noted that most early American Catholics blamed the LATIN Mass for being the problem, with priests almost exclusively doing Low Masses in whispered bad Latin that meant little to anyone in attendance. Entire communities, like the Irish in Georgia, just blended into the greater Protestant society over time because it was more comfortable. These frustrations reached a fever pitch in the 20th century, with nearly unanimous call for a more approachable and culturally adaptable Mass, which made evangelism in Africa and Asia much easier and more successful. Novus Ordo was necessary. Now we just have to make it a bit smoother in the Anglosphere.

[@DavidLarson100]

To clarify, when I say the whispered Latin low masses meant little to anyone in attendance, that was a reference to Bishop Carroll saying that among the lower classes and especially black Americans who were largely illiterate, there was a lot of frustration about inability to follow along. Of course it "meant something" to those people in that it was the holy sacrifice of the Mass, but it was very hard for the common man to connect with.

[@Consume_Crash]

That's one way to interpret the history but it's not the only way.

[@DavidLarson100]

@@Consume_Crash Obviously. Didn't say it was.

[@CanuckNews-fv3qj]

thanks for proving the point that the new world order mass was made to appeal to to protestants by watering down our uniuque faith

[@mencha0rewegachi]

Absolutely it was a mistake! Vocations are down, Mass attendance is down, reverence out the window, of course it was a phenomenal mistake.

[@SeranaZentha]

Gonna be real latin mass is better but trust me, I dont think vocations would increase in this modern era if it made a comback. No modern man wants to sit there for 2 hours if he can barely discipline himself for one. Lets fix those issues first

[@joseph_mta5840]

Attendance went down in every religion. People don’t care about the Faith. They’ve rejected the Church. A Latin Mass wouldn’t bring them back- only grace can.

[@HarryPainter]

Attendance is up in Africa

[@HarryPainter]

@@SeranaZenthaI think if you allow free reign of TLM starting today, you will see a clear positive trend in vocations within 10 years

[@FirefoxisredExplorerisblueGoog]

​@@SeranaZenthaI get what you're saying but for me time passes by so much faster at TLM. It pulls me in, in a way the NO mass just can't.

[@josephesquivel4066]

The problem is the NO is never going admit they have some serious flaws with their practice. They'll just claim the mythological "Reverent NO" but never actually establish it as the norm which is the irony of the term because if it's the Reverent NO, it means that it's not the standard NO.

[@micheldevries7975]

I have never been to a TLM but I do know that something isn't right with the priest facing us instead of the altar.

[@Ordinarytimes-g7q]

Well technically he is still facing Jesus and the Altar.

[@FlexCathedrafromIG]

@@micheldevries7975 vs Populum really makes no sense and reduces what's going on at the altar to a performance. There's no reason for the priest to be at the center facing us....ad orientem is more theologically and mystically appropriate

[@tusolusdominus]

I have no idea why we even adopted this liturgical posture. The only reason it’s done in Rome is because they faced the East. Most churches just do it just because and that’s how they were taught and grew up seeing Mass

[@costernocht]

Some say it was the influence of television.

[@squirrelandowl7482]

It's because it feels like everywhere else in the world. A work meeting, public school, a seminar.

[@RickW-HGWT]

I have never heard anyone explain who was responsible or why this was not implemented correctly ? , this claim that it has not been Implemented correctly after 60 plus years is an insult.

[@Aspiring3033]

We already have the best liturgy. The Ordinariate liturgy the Anglican patrimony!

[@katydidd6321]

Nice to see Matt _not_ admonishing Trads for refusing to attend the NO (while himself attending an Eastern Liturgy) for once. >golf clap

[@magikarp2063]

There is a difference between going to a different rite and refusing to go to a rite.

[@samuelwalker1410]

​@@magikarp2063I think the point is that many of these KZbinrs condemn people for refusing to attend the NO...but avoid it as much as possible. 😅

[@katydidd6321]

@@samuelwalker1410 Thank you.

[@MattBurrill]

That's Michael Lofton's schtick.

[@pcola4594]

@@magikarp2063 … He has said it himself, he sought out reverence and mystery and beauty. He wasn’t finding it in the Latin church which is primarily NO. This is why he switched rites…. To escape the NO lol

[@kevinhodges867]

I’m Novus Ordo and I have been to and love the TLM. The form of the Mass is not my decision to make but it’s governance is entrusted to the Magisterium. I feel it is most profitable to accept that with docility and respect for the hierarchy and if something is wrong, to trust God to make up whatever might be lacking.

[@Mxswanson500]

Real

[@karlheven8328]

What matters is that we should go back to the old ways and allow the TLM again to be celebrated by all priests like Summorum Pontificum called for

[@erikriza7165]

Many mistakes were made. The Order of Mass could have been better. The biggest mistake was the glorification of disobedience.

[@DoctorDewgong]

Why why why didn't they just translate the TLM into vernacular? Doesn't that seem like the obvious thing to do?

[@samuelwalker1410]

​@@DoctorDewgongwhy does it need to be translated?

[@squirrelandowl7482]

@@DoctorDewgong Because their intent was to make a new liturgy.

[@erikriza7165]

@@DoctorDewgong I have been saying that for over 50 years.

[@JJ-zr6fu]

TLM is the glorification disobedience

[@tianamenezes7548]

It's a shame Vatican II totally did away with the TLM altogether rather than incorporating both forms in our liturgical cycle. Maybe NO for weekday and Sunday Masses and TLM for big feasts like Christmas, Easter and Pentecost. That way at least current catholics have some familiarity with their history and this style to worship. We've been totally cut off from our traditions and we're all worse off because of it.

[@MattBurrill]

Revolutionaries don't go by halves like that, though. Cutting us off from traditions was the point, and it failed spectactularly.

[@premed808]

If the Roman Catholic Church went back to the Tridentine Mass universally, reunion with the Orthodox Church would become way more likely.

[@CanuckNews-fv3qj]

look at all the prot coverts who love the NO in the comments

[@anthonyjones866]

I humbly encourage everyone here to read the new book written by Dr. Peter Kwasniewski, “Turned Around: Replying to Common Objections Against the Traditional Latin Mass” (TAN, 2024). You will not be disappointed. Ed Feser endorsed it, as did Karl Keating, the founder of Catholic Answers. Karl said the following about it: "The public argument in favor of the Traditional Latin Mass has been waiting for a book that handles common objections thoroughly yet winsomely. This is that book. Other books examine at great length the historical, theological, and customary aspects of the old Mass, but those books are for the initiated. Turned Around is for newcomers and inquirers, particularly those who have been confused by stock arguments against the old Mass. The writing is clear, approachable, and often elegant. Any reader, no matter his current liturgical preference, will come away instructed, intrigued, and edified.”

[@markscannell865]

I've read Dr. K's book and seen a few interviews he has done about it. He offers a lot of great defenses of many of the things done with the TLM and why they are done.

[@joseph_mta5840]

We don’t need a book by a guy that has zero theology degrees and openly demeans our Pope. Dr Peter. K is not a good source.

[@toddvoss52]

Hmm. Peter in the last month or so finally came to the conclusion that the NO (no matter how well celebrated) is illicit and that priests can refuse to ever celebrate it and of course can refuse to concelebrate the Chrism mass with their bishop (and the latter no longer for the narrow canon law argument which was a poor argument that misread the canon law). Hopefully that conclusion was not in this book that Ed endorsed. Because that is a very different claim and a very problematic one.

[@anthonyjones866]

@@toddvoss52 Like Ed and KarI, I encourage you to read it! I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

[@karlheven8328]

It's wrong to force people into a liturgy and away from the traditional mass. ​@@toddvoss52

[@ggarza]

I attended a Latin Novus Ordo Mass for 20 years that was sung in Gregorian Chant. It was beautiful and I still prefer the Ancient Rite for 3 reasons: The Rubrics; the Orations and the Lectionary. Although the Novus Ordo rubrics allow for a Latin language sung in Gregorian Chant, they also allow for clown masses and everything in between. The Council did not request a change in the Orations yet only 17% of the original and ancient prayers of the Mass remain after the reformation of the ritual after the Council. The ancient prayers are much superior to the modern prayer. The modern Lectionary, although it includes more of the Old Testament, also destroys the narrative of salvation history prior to the Gospel. Additionally, the modern Lectionary is a cut and paste selection of the New Testament, entirely avoiding “controversy” or “hard sayings.” This gives a false sense to the congregation of what is being proclaimed. It is often claimed that the Ancient Rite is only as old as the Council of Trent. This is entirely false. The form of the “Tridentine” Mass is the oldest in Christendom. Its beauty and simplicity is tested by time and the saints.

[@Joker22593]

I think the New Mass is a good thing, but it wasn't implemented properly in many places. Down in small town Texas, most masses I have been to are reverent and wonderful. I'm a weirdo who advocates for a hybrid orientation. During the consecration, he is acting in persona christi, so it would be best, as part of that act, to face the people. Afterwards, during the offering, he should face god as representative of the people. In this way, the priest acts out both christ's divine and human nature in a symbolic way, and teaches us about Christ's role as the sole God-Man mediator.

[@dan-vc6xg]

@@Joker22593 that hybrid orientation definitely spot on

[@terryhartman9522]

As an older convert from a Lutheran church I am perplexed by this controversy. I want to hear, speak and sing the Mass in English so I can fully understand and participate. Why sow division? Reminds me of the squabble in the Lutheran church over traditional vs contemporary worship.

[@JJ-zr6fu]

This is my big problem. TLM people tend to look down on other Catholics. And I do find being able to fully participate and comprehend the mass allows me to fully participate. Also the NO was made to promote laity participation where the TLM requires no participation

[@cfban]

@@terryhartman9522 the division came from the liturgical reform, not from the people who love the old Mass. If the Mass was not changed and the old Mass suppressed, there would be no "liturgy wars". And if you're genuinely curious about why we prefer the old Mass and why Latin is important, I cannot recommend you enough the books by Dr Peter Kwasniewski.

[@polaramas.867]

@@JJ-zr6fuWhat I have personally experienced, and also what I heard them communicating in the video was being aggrieved by the EXCESSES of the NO, not necessarily the NO itself. The lack of reverence, little to no Latin spoken or sung, lack of kneelers and reverent reception of the Body and Blood of Our Lord. At our Parish, we have one Latin Mass and the rest are very reverent NO’s. The majority of our parishioners receive kneeling and on the tongue, but many do not. We have an ethnically diverse congregation and an amazingly talented and reverent Schola, led by a devout professional and his wife. I do not see any significant divisions in our Parish. Our Sanctuary was badly damaged in an arson fire over a year ago and it has only brought us closer.

[@CanuckNews-fv3qj]

shocker the prot covert likes the liturgical revolution to water down the catholic faith to appeal to prots. would you have converted if we didn't smash our statues, painted over our icons, trashed our beautiful decor, and made the mass more Lutheran?

[@pamelahermano9298]

The Novus Ordo is all I’ve ever been exposed to. I’m 41 and I know nothing else because there are no Latin masses near me.

[@cheifhog2552]

The concept of a cut down, simplified liturgy is actually a pretty ingenious way to make the process of conversion easier for people in a world infected by Protestantism. It gets them in the door and aquainted with Liturgical Worship. The mistake is making this cut down, simplified liturgy the flagship rite of The Catholic Church. Frankly I don’t know why we can’t just make either the TLM or Novus Ordo its own liturgical tradition like we did with the Byzantines and the Ethiopians and call it a day. Those liturgies weren’t even formed entirely under the control of The Catholic Church and we accept them, yet we simultaneously can’t make room for the liturgy that built this Church? What sense does that make? Let the two persist and whichever one feeds people better will survive. If The Novus Ordo is as good as they claim, then it should be an open and shut case that’s able to stand on its own two feet.

[@MattBurrill]

If the Novus Ordo is so great, then why are still asking if it was mistake fifty four years after its introduction? That's older than I am. Fifty four years is more than enough time for its value to be properly appraised, for whatever defects it had to be corrected. It's failed the test of time.

[@tomredd9025]

I also don't understand why people keep bringing this up and basically making a fetish of having Mass in Latin. The Novus Ordo Mass is so beautiful and blessed.

[@MattBurrill]

@tomredd9025 You're correct: you don't understand.

[@johnisimus]

The Mass is too often a mess? You should go to France, where the Mass is ALWAYS a Messe. ...I'll see myself out.

[@katydidd6321]

Sacre Bleu...!

[@jeandejazz6426]

The real problem is not the form of the mass. The real problem is faith. "Whitout faith it is impossible to please God..." A faithfully and reverently celebrated mass in one form or the other is the really important thing .

[@elKarlo]

You could have just made the Latin mass a vernacular mass. Just the Latin mass but in the native language of the people of the area. Basically what the orthodox do

[@DomN5TCB]

@@elKarlo And the Eastern Rites in Communion.

[@Sc-ld7os]

Every diocese should be allowed at least one Tridentine Rite mass without these silly restrictions that depend on what diocese you live in.

[@pegquilty592]

A hybrid of the two masses may eventually develop. Personally, I think it’s more impactful to hear the readings and gospel in a language I understand, especially for kids….but the reverence that the Latin mass imparts is beautiful.

[@jacobcauley5758]

Here is an idea... return to the same Mass we have had for thousands of years; Its not that hard. The new "Spring Time" they've wanted is here, but it is in the form of returning to our tradition and the TLM, which is not what they expected. They are actively trying to curtail it.

[@leekflower1]

@@jacobcauley5758 there are many valid forms of the Catholic liturgy. If only the TLM is valid, what about the Coptic, Byzantine, maranite etc rites? They are ancient as well.

[@paulmassey4261]

@leekflower1 that's fine, but they're not for the Roman Rite.

[@slntobsrvr4297]

Here is an idea... (give me what i want with no compromise)

[@cauleyhog]

@@leekflower1were talking specifically about the roman rite. The East needs to preserve what they have.

[@cfban]

@@leekflower1 how about this: Eastern Catholic churches can have their Divine Liturgy intact and without restrictions, and we in the Roman Church can have the old Mass intact and without restrictions.

[@edgario]

As somebody living in a third world country this discussion sounds extremely alien to me. I have a hard time thinking of doing a latin mass in some remote places that I have participated in a NO.

[@BrewMeister27]

Entire continents were successfully evangelized with the Latin Mass.

[@WT-Sherman]

The Traditional Mass has been offered in countless remote spots all over the planet for more than 1500 years. The photo of a Traditional Latin Mass being offered using the hood of an army jeep as the altar during WWII comes to mind.

[@johnnotrealname8168]

The Philippines was evangelised with it. I am sure your country could be.

[@sethn1094]

We need a new missal with all the old prayers returned.

[@JohnFDonovan-by1nt]

The Council did not ask for the Novus ordo. The issue is the attitudes, theology and the serious abuse of papal power that allowed the Novus Ordo to be created. The very idea that the usus antiquor which had developed along with the Church over the centuries, withstanding the attacks of the Reformation was just an historical aberration or something that came about in a sort of Darwinian adaption to historical circumstances and that suddenly the Holy Spirit realized something needed to be done is blasphemous. Rome's attitude that the TLM contains a defective ecclesiology and should be banned or isolated in the plague ward is the tip of the iceberg. In historical terms it is the heresy of Josephisim incarnate That you cannot tell the difference between the unicorn reverent No and the TLM only shows how little educated even most articulate Catholics are. I have encountered Catholics who think the NO is a translation into English of the TLM. There is more to this than just aesthetics and Latin. That the Eastern churches have been spared the liturgical tsunami the Western Church underwent has gone a long way in convincing me there is an element of truth in their annoying and prideful declarations that they are the ones who are faithful to the historic church. The fact is Paul VI and his committee, treated the Mass no differently than Crammer, Zwingli, and Luther. The Mass became their toy for the latest from the bottom up theologie du jour. Paul, in permitting this, violated one of the principal points of Pastor Aeternus, i.e. his responsibility to hand the down the Faith unblemished. Francis', l'eglise c'est moi is the final rotten fruit of everything that has gone before. The only difference between what Paul, Crammer, Luther and Zwingli did to the liturgy, is God intervened to make sure that at the level of the lowest common denominator, the NO is valid. Even Paul and his talking head liturgists could not outmaneuver the Trinity.

[@RobertFallon]

The NO is “too often a mess”? Show me. I’m older than the folks on this video and have lived in two countries and six states, and attended numerous parishes for services. I have never, ever seen a mess. The NO has brought Scripture to the faithful in a way the Latin Mass never did. It ended the disrespectful wandering of attention during the Mass. It encourages community, the building of the Body of Christ (um, body building?) by extending the Kiss of Peace. By contrast, the sad truth is that the extraordinary form of the Mass has brought about a fetishization of the Latin Mass to the point where deep divisions have arisen in the Church. Don’t scapegoat the NO as the source of all your complaints and concerns.

[@CarlosOteroC]

Well said, many are using the rite changes as an easy excuse to explain the failings of the Church, as if the secularism of the world, the new technologies, and the abuses of the Church hasn't happened in the last 50 years. Correlation is not causation.

[@saetainlatin]

Claiming that _"The NO has brought Scripture to the faithful in a way the Latin Mass never did. It ended"_ is not understanding what the lectures and the homily are for. They are not a Bible study, the homily aims to create contrition in the faithful and to confirm what we ought to believe, that justifies the 1-year cycle of the latin mass. The Kiss of peace creates chaos just before communion. From the moment of the offertory to the 'Our Father', the Mass aims to create spiritual recollection, but then the kiss of peace breaks that recollection. When you receive the king of England yo remain quite and reverent, no start greeting everyone around you.

[@jamesshives5679]

You have never seen a mess? Maybe your eyes were closed. I haven't lived as long as the men in the video but I've seen a fair number of messes. Just because you can tolerate it doesn't mean it isn't a mess.

[@Joker22593]

The sign of peace is older than the tridentine mass and follows Jesus's commands to forgive your brother before approaching the altar. The faithful need to be taught to do it in a way that is not chaotic, and most places manage that quite well. We then immediately ask for God's mercy right afterwards to refocus our attention on the Eucharist.

[@Joker22593]

I'm a big fan of what the Bishop of Austin did. He's instructing places to do the NO ad orientem and in Latin if the community wants to. It's how the original documents encourage it to be done.

[@SirPoopallot]

You should go listen to the new video of Dr. Brant Pitre, The Mass Explained. He said that actually the Latin mas in its form was actually the format of a private mass did in a back chapel at the vatican. This private mass had actually zero participation from others but those around the altar because often the format was for 2 or 3 people. Before that, people were actually in active participation during the mass. In that sense, the Novo ordo brought back the active participation of the congregation.

[@FlexCathedrafromIG]

The way the new liturgy was implemented in the 70s was AWFUL. I don't think anyone within the right reason would disagree. I've learned to tolerate it because I'm fortunate enough to go to a parish that does both a beautiful TLM and NO. I will always prefer the TLM and ideally It would be nice to see it more available en masse, but I think we are seeing more parishes doing the Novus Ordo with more mystery and beauty. It took years for me to let go of my hostile attitude towards the NO, but as someone that was baptized and confirmed in the new rite of worship, we can have our criticisms but also our respect trusting that God makes all things new and good and restores all things to their former glory

[@IesuDulcisMemoria]

@@FlexCathedrafromIG exactly the same

[@IesuDulcisMemoria]

Pd: idk if you are flex cathedra but I love your videos

[@cfban]

The way the new liturgy was implemented in the 70s was exactly how the new liturgy was intended. The "reverent" and "tridentinized" Novus Ordo of today is a novelty invented by well-meaning priests who want to make the best out of the new Mass. However, this is still as much an artifice of the priest as were the clown Masses of the 70s. The old Liturgy is objectively superior to any form of the new Mass. Even the highest and most tridentinized ad orientem Novus Ordo with Gregorian chants is still objectively inferior to the lowest of the low Masses in the old rite. None of this is to say that the new Mass is invalid, or that the priests who make an effort to offer the new Mass as reverently as possible are bad. On the contrary, I have nothing but respect for them, especially if their bishops (wickedly) forbid the old Mass.

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[@ethangameren4490]

I was at Assissi the week before last, the modernity and lack of reverence was difficult.

[@Tony-ci7ys]

Not "a mistake," but a necessary step aside for that era (and still is valid).

[@MrPeach1]

should we impose latin standards on african mass?

[@fij715]

Yes otherwise they can join an Ethiopian Church.

[@SwordsmanRyan]

Cardinal Sarah is African and he says so.

[@josephesquivel4066]

The African church was doing just fine before Vatican II and one of the biggest proponents for Latin is Cardinal Sarah.

[@racheldsouza8895]

Why not? This seems to have a racist undertone. Are you trying to imply that Africans are incapable of celebrating the NO?. I apologise if I assumed incorrectly though and I hope that that's not what you were trying to imply

[@MrPeach1]

you had to go there. Grow up.

[@shepeck71]

I was born in 1969 and raised in the NO mass. I do remember there being some guitars here and there in our masses from time to time in the 70s, and that’s about it. I still attend mass regularly and avail myself of the sacraments. The NO is all I’ve known, and I feel like I’m just as Catholic as those who speak against it. I realize there are and have been abuses, but perhaps I’ve been blessed enough not to have actually witnessed anything like them in the parishes I’ve attended. I guess it’s a little hard for me, at 55 years old now, to hear talk about it all being a “mistake”. Is that wrong of me? God bless you all.

[@auk7447]

@@shepeck71 I read this - 55 and from the UK - and wondered if I'd written it and forgotten! You put words in my mouth 🙂

[@renee5748]

As a 65-year-old NO Mass attendee, I believe that both forms of mass can be beautiful. I prefer the NO Mass in my own language. I believe that people who prefer the Latin mass should also be able to attend their favorite kind of celebration. The bottom line is, we are all worshiping God and loving Jesus. I don’t think he would want us arguing over somebody else’s favorite style of worship.

[@CanuckNews-fv3qj]

I'm a young millennial and we all want the religion you boomers threw in the trash

[@CanuckNews-fv3qj]

@@renee5748 if it doesn't matter why did boomers destroy our alters, cover up our icons, changed the mass to be more lutherian??? if it doesn't matter leave the ancient faith alone or or be high anglian or something

[@renee5748]

@@CanuckNews-fv3qj you have a right to want the TLM. I just want to point out that it wasn’t “boomers” who changed anything. It was the Pope and the Vatican II council over many years, who worked on and implemented the changes. “Boomers” were either not even born yet or were young children when the changes occurred.

[@vivianocasioojeda]

Novus Ordo was a terrible idea and we should return to pre Vatican II mass! A reverent and holy offering to our Lord!

[@aureum7479]

😂

[@rcwarrior868]

The TLM didnt come arount until the miedieval times. I want to attend a mass that looks like that of the apostles. Justin martyrs letter reflects that. And to be quite honest it looks like a novus ordo?

[@LuisEstebanGomezAlduncin]

Why?

[@denisesoto3245]

I only know the NO Mass. I find it reverential and beautiful. I don’t see a clown Mass. I do know that I don’t want to go to a Mass where I don’t understand the language. I don’t speak Latin.

[@randallharville1733]

@@denisesoto3245 I used to think that too. Then I went to the extraordinary form of the mass, and now I only go to Latin Mass. You should try it.

[@TheAzonnali]

Its not just the language. Although you can make a point that Latin as the language of the church has a unifying character (sure u can take English but that has political conotations). But the entire layout and structure of mass is different. Its more worshipping as opposed to community focused. The TLM is more rooted in "we gather here to worship, to offer, to sacrifice". Whereas the NO is more like "heres what you get from God and scripture, etc."

[@St.Augustine4006]

Latin mass is the best. The new mass looks like a different religion. The jews at the time of christ didn't speak Hebrew either. But their liturgy in the temple was Hebrew.

[@justingraham2390]

You'd only prefer McDonald's if you never had a steak.

[@jamesshives5679]

Being deliberately close-minded isn't something to be proud of. You don't know Latin because you don't care to, but it's entirely possible to learn. If you moved to or visited a foreign country (non-english speaking) you would have to learn their language to understand the Mass too... unless they also spoke Latin at Mass, which would be convenient if you already know Latin.

[@markrobertson6664]

There is not a single outcome measure of the Catholic Church that has not declined since the introduction of the new missal. So if it’s a success, why is it such a failure?

[@Andy-hy1co]

I came back to the Catholic Church because Novus Ordo made the Mass more approachable. I felt included. And I wasn’t looking at someone’s back.

[@drewd5811]

I was a Rad Trad once. Then I noticed that the beautiful masses did not create people who were faithful to the Magisterium. All day long just people complaining about the Popes and Bishops. Just loads of anger and bitterness. It was worth moving to a beige liturgy of the NO just to get to people who at least believe the faith can be joyful at times.

[@christopherpavesi7245]

It certainly appears to have been a mistake.

[@Molly-sv9yn]

Can anybody in a sentence or two explain why pope Francis wants to stop the Latin mass? I don’t get it

[@johnfisher4262]

Because he’s not Catholic and a manifest heretic and is trying to destroy true Catholicism. Papa Bergolio is closer to the vicar of satan than the vicar of Christ (a title for the pope that “Francis” has completely rejected by the way). He is visibly evil. I get the same twisted feeling in my stomach when I look at him as when I look at bill gates or George soros or Jeffrey Epstein.

[@RickW-HGWT]

Good question, he to my mind despises tradition, he cannot accept or admit to the failures of the NO.

[@maryangelica5319]

It's less about the mass itself and more about the FDS as well as certain kinds of opposition to VII and recent magisterium that are running as currents in the TLM communities. They are congregating around the TLM, but in a way that fuels opposition to Church authority. I think it added fuel to the fire, tbh, because TLM people have already felt sidelined by the US bishops and this seems more like an intensification of that sidelining. I kinda think ESH...

[@johnnotrealname8168]

@@maryangelica5319 This is absolutely insane to me. He openly adores protties and barely reacts to public sinners but it is those that attend the Traditional Latin Mass that is the problem?

[@ainako1010]

I don't want to over hype TLM and I don't want to disparage NO. My happy medium in is a NO mass with Kyrie, Sanctus, Mysterium Fidei, Agnus Dei being sung. Shout outs to St Anthony of Padua (Las Vegas, NV) & Immaculate Conception (Clarksville, TN). Additionally, when it comes to the mass, should we be reverent? Absolutely. But considering where we are, maybe what's more important is that we receive Jesus (TLM, NO, whatever rite). Blood, Body, Soul, and Divinity. Last time I check there were still 2/3 of Catholics that do not believe in real presence. Returning to TLM may fix that, but I think the focus is on the individual and for a laity to be TRULY on fire and bold in the Holy Spirit. That we become not just Catholics but well-formed and well catechized Catholics. I used to be bullish on Catholic/Non-Catholic Christian contemporary music but after attending the Nat'l Eucharistic Congress, I definitely found an appreciation for it. So, if you' re a rad trad maybe ease off (not completely) on NO. And if you're a NO fanboy/girl, maybe take some time to go to TLM at least a few times in a year.

[@Hafstrom1845]

All the NO masses I’ve been to in Scandinavia always have had a very reverent style. No guitars, only bells.

[@celtoroma4013]

my opinion only, Novus Ordo is a failure. That needs to be fixed fast.

[@carlosjennings7707]

This debate seems like the Roman Catholic equivalent of ‘it sounds better on vinyl’.

[@renee5748]

😂😂

[@cfban]

@@carlosjennings7707 go and try to force the Eastern Catholic churches to abandon their Divine Liturgy in favor of some modern version and tell me if they also think that it's a superfluous debate. You would have a schism on your hands faster than you can say "Bugnini was probably a Freemason", and I wouldn't blame them.

[@MattBurrill]

You know how if you bought an appliance like a dishwasher or clothes dryer in the past it would last forever and ever, but now they break every couple of years? It's more like that.

[@carlosjennings7707]

@@cfban My brother in Christ, I'm also on team vinyl. The latin mass really puts the 'Roman' in Roman Catholic. Without the TLM, it's practically Lutheran albeit with less Martins . And where's the fun in that? (Correct answer is none - there is no fun in that.)

[@josephesquivel4066]

If you haven't noticed vinyl has been back for several years.

[@thetraditionalthomist]

Yes, it was a mistake.

[@mylifeasjen8732]

New to Catholic Church person here. Love my Novus Ordo mass. My parish is very reverent. 90% of people kneeling and taking communion on the tongue with 50% of women veiling. I want to be able to understand and participate in the mass. I think that is important.

[@johnnotrealname8168]

Only 50%? Well there is another problem. The Church ought to mandate that again.

[@ToqTheWise]

I’m going to say it, I don’t want to go to the TLM every Sunday. I like celebrating mass in the common vernacular, I like ad populum, and shock and horror, I like receiving on the hand. It can be done carefully and reverently and as someone who uses sign language, taking the Eucharist into my mouth with my signing hand has personal significance to me. I think the only mistake was creating this war between the rites. It needs to stop.

[@tomredd9025]

Beautiful. Thank you.

[@kyler9323]

It's not really about what you like, is it?

[@maryangelica5319]

​@kyler9323 and it's not about what the trads like either.

[@LaTierraNueva19]

What’s a must is Singing must be done in Latin. Gregorian chants transport the congregation to heaven instantly. No guitars should be allowed in mass, as it begins to mirror Protestant worship.

[@blackwoodbaritone]

It’s a sad and ironic presumption they make when people assert that a reverent Novus Ordo was was the council fathers had in mind, when the Ottavian Intervention definitely proved the opposite - that the majority of council Fathers voted against the Novus Ordo as it was proposed. Vatican II =/= Novus Ordo.

[@joseph_mta5840]

That’s actually not true. The entire church episcopate was open to a revision. The ottiavani intervention was not the big deal trads make it out to be. Ottiavani accepted the new Mass.

[@MattBurrill]

I love B16, but I am glad that the mutual enrichment idea never panned out. I don't think the TLM has anything to "learn" from the Novus Ordo. It would only be harmed by the exchange. Modern Catholics tried to overhaul the ancient Mass and failed badly. Our generations of Catholics should not be allowed to tinker Mass reform. We aren't holy or prayerful enough. We should just restore the pre 1955 (or 1962) Mass and then make alterations off limits for at least 100 years.

[@karlheven8328]

I agree totally. You do not solve a chaos created with more mixing of rites.

[@rtyria]

If I could have a penny for every person who told me that they did not leave the Church (after the introduction of the new Mass) but that the Church left them I'd be wealthy. That entire generation is nearly gone, yet no one among the hierarchy has addressed this complaint of theirs - and I think that is an injustice. It does seem like two completely different religions, yet everyone who dared point that out was instantly condemned as schismatic or worse. I have experienced few things more intolerant or as unforgiving as the modern day Church when the topic of the new Mass comes up.

[@antw3114]

@@rtyria I totally agree with your point. My late mother had a mass missal from her childhood and I eventually found out about the Latin mass and was able to use it. As time went by, and I read more catholic books from pre-Vatican 2, I felt the same, that it was like two different religions.

[@Selousscout]

If the Novus Ordo was a mistake, then I have faith the Holy Spirit will lead our Church back on the right track. I guess I am lucky in that my Novus Ordo Mass is reverent and not nearly as bad as some of the horror stories I have heard. I love the Latin Mass as well. I am currently in OCIA and will be confirmed next Easter.

[@c.Ichthys]

When we research the Mass of the first, and following centuries, we find that the Novus Ordos Mass is more like those then the TLM.

[@GuadalupePicasso]

@@c.Ichthys bro, the earliest “Masses” exist, by way of the liturgy of St James, St Mark, and St. Peter. If anything, the closest to the early church today is the Byzantine Divine Liturgies, as the liturgy of St Basil the Great (used by Byzantines on the Sundays of Lent and a handful of other feastdays) was essentially an “update” of that St James, in part to update the theological language. The same goes for the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, though it was an “update” of that of St Basil. The prayers used in these liturgies, as well as the Byzantine form of the liturgy of the hours, beyond the psalms, were all written by canonized saints of the church. Seriously, if you want to talk about the ancient liturgy, go East.

[@c.Ichthys]

@Guad, nope. The Byzantine Mass came centuries later, just like the Latin Mass did. Read the Church Father letters. You're forgetting as well, that for the first few centuries the Catholics had to hide and have Mass in secret.

[@moonrhea7196]

if I had attended a Latin Mass, I would not have heard all of the words of the liturgy that comes straight from the Bible. reverence in the big Gothic church was beautiful, but that I recognized the church as biblical was even more important in my conversion. had Mass been in Latin, I do not think I would have ever seen the church. I needed to hear Her worshiping God in my own language. if the accident of the novus ordol was only for me, thank you! thank you Jesus!

[@renee5748]

God bless you, your conversion, and the beautiful point that you are making.

[@moonrhea7196]

I need to add. You will only receive from mass what you offer at His alter. If you do not bring yourself humbly before His Throne and throw your rags at His feet and offer your broken body and soul and dare to touch His Hem... The reference of those around you, the perfection of the song, the beauty of the building, the well spoken words of the minister... nothing has the power to bring you before the Almighty God outside of His Grace, His Sacrament, it is He who calls you. Do not consider yourself better than His mass at His Chosen priest hands.

[@MaolsheachlannÓCeallaigh]

"Clearly the Latin Mass is more beautiful and inspires more reverence and devotion..." It's not clear to me.

[@nicholasroman940]

I’m curious how critics/opponents of the Missal of Pope St. Paul VI feel about the Anglican Use of the Roman Rite

[@cfban]

"St".

[@anthonyjones866]

There are beutiful things about it, but I, like many others, hope and pray for a return of the true liturgical heritage of the British people: the Sarum Rite. I highly encourage you to look up and read the article "The Tragedy of the Sarum Rite" by Sebastian Morello at the European Conservative.

[@DomN5TCB]

Been to the Masses at the OL Walsingham Cathedral in Houston. Church busting at the seems. Very high Liturgies. Thee, Thou, and all That English. Wish we had the spirit of that in 1970.

[@chommie5350]

Novus Ordo was the beginning of the end for the Catholic church together with communion in the hand. That is why today 70% of Catholics don't believe in the real presence of Jesus in the Holy Eucharist..... The N. O. Turned the mass from a sacrifice to a supper celebration..... It broke the faithful Catholic like never before.... I remember the Catholic school I used to go to hordes of nuns left the faith including 3 priests...... Do you see where I'm going with this.... IT BROKE THE CATHOLIC FAITH

[@joseph_mta5840]

I went to a reverent Novus Ordo with lots of Latin. It was the way the new Mass should be offered. I thought to myself ‘this is how it should be and how could anyone reject this?’ I actually preferred it to the Latin Mass.

[@jsthe]

But that was never the intention of the Novus Ordo. The Novus Ordo was very clearly intended to be in the vernacular and versus populum, or else they wouldn’t have mandated the installation of altar tables and rewrote the Mass in the manner which they did.

[@andrewrolwes6034]

@@joseph_mta5840 But, if you were to ask head of the committee that created the new Mass, Archbishop Bugnini, I think he would say, no, he did not intend for it to be said in Latin. He was a full 'active participation' zealot. He wanted all of the fun, modern, hip, cool things in it. This is no mystery, he wrote a massive auto-biography detailing all of this.

[@DomN5TCB]

@@joseph_mta5840 9:30 Holy Rosary. Midtown Houston. All OF. All Latin and one section Greek.

[@kellibuzzard9431]

Answer: yes!!!

[@nuclear-radmountain-man4554]

I go to an Ad Orientem Novus Ordo Mass in my small Parish. What matters is are you there, to worship God or not? I like to see people being reverential and take this seriously around me. Most the time people do, at least where I am at. However what matters is how are you participating in the Mass. Pray for those around you there regardless.

[@O_Rei]

No, your interior disposition is not* “[all] what matters”; if it were, God would not have have spoken at length to his Old Testament people about even minute details, recorded in Scripture, of how to carry out worship.

[@cfban]

This is exactly why the Novus Ordo is harmful. Even the most reverent ad orientem Novus Ordo makes the people believe that "what matters is how you are participating in the Mass". No, no, one hundred times no. What matters is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Your participation is not the most important thing at all. It's not even necessary, as a priest can offer a private Mass by himself that is just as valid, beautiful and mysterious as the highest of the High Masses. The Mass is for God. The readings of the Bible are for God. The chants and the incense are for God. You are just beloved enough by Our Lord to be allowed to witness the Mass.

[@renee5748]

I completely agree with you. What God wants is our hearts. The Old Testament rules were shown by Jesus to lead people away from love of God and neighbor. Jesus fulfilled what was intended.

[@O_Rei]

@@renee5748 Wait… what?? The Old Testament law - which Jesus said he came to fulfil - were created “to drive people away from love of neighbour”?? What a Marcionite, balsphemous garbage. Repent and go to confession.

[@johnnotrealname8168]

@@renee5748 He did not destroy everything. Even Saint Francis of Assisi worried about the Chalices and Tabernacles.

[@IlPadre4103]

90% of the new Mass is useless. The rare unicorn Mass necessarily starts with knowledge of and a presumption of the normitive nature of 62 and earlier. Personally I would go back to 54, and then slowly introduce suggested reforms from V2. Keep the old calendar adding new Saints, and lots of "options". Add some of the new prayers as options. Most are trite though... Start with the old lectionary... ditch multiyear cycles... and add an optional OT readings to Mass following the format of Ember Saturdays or the Easter vigil. Prayer reading, psalm, prayer reading, psalm, prayer, reading, psalm... Etc. ... gloria, prayer, epistle, gradual, Gospel. Keep EP IV for those for whom options are desireable. Make the prayers at the foot and last Gospel options as well as the solemn blessings.

[@dreez28]

I think it would be helpful to go through the changes to the Liturgy on a point by point basis and discuss which changes are problematic. These are a few of my top problematic changes… 1. Turning of the Priest toward the People (this is the introduction of secular humanism to the Mass), 2. Removal of the Alter Rail (this is the removal of the sense of the sacred), 3. Introduction of readers, female altar servers, cantors and extraordinary ministers to the altar and sanctuary (this is the undermining of the unique role of the priesthood). Then there are the removal of numerous prayers from the liturgy itself said by the priest and/or said in unison with the congregation… this really takes away from the gravity of the Mass and what is actually happening. There are many other issues, but these are changes in almost all parishes throughout the world things have to be undone, and were definitely mistakes.

[@Ordinarytimes-g7q]

God doesn't work through the mess or in spite of it, He works *with* it. I thinks it's putting a limit to His omnipotentcy thinking otherwise. Also I fear it's a prideful thoght to think things ought to be "x,y,z" because thats how they worked for me or I came to the faith this way. Grait saints of post V.II became saints while going to the N.O Mass. Why are we even talking about this? Let's worry about how we approach the mystery of Mass every time we go to Mass instead of looking around how others approach it. *Yes there have been abuses more in the NO but people can abuse the TLM too because guess what, we are all sinners.* If the TLM is better for you to become holier, great! If the NO. is better for you to become holier, great! Glory to God in every case. Be as holy as you can either way. P.s. I went to a TLM and couldn't follow or have a proper disposition to adore God because I couldn't follow. Thank God for the N.O. I see abuse I speak up and address where I can, in the situation and place God put me. Other than that I give obedience to the Holy Mother Church and trust her judgement even if I think im "right", and know I can't go around saving every parish or the world.

[@ransomcoates546]

Serious scholarship today reveals how woefully ignorant much of Bugnini’s work was. One of the members of the Concilium, Dom Boniface Lyx, had himself transferred into an Eastern rite he was so outraged at what the final Novus Ordo turned out to be. ‘Work of Human Hands’ indeed.

[@josephc9963]

I've had that thought at the end myself a few times. That the Novus Ordo (at least as it frequently manifests) was a sort of allowance given to a particular generation by God in order to help save souls that might have otherwise strayed. It's increasingly looking like the time for that has passed though.

[@DomN5TCB]

How about this? Why doesn't somebody do a side to side comparison of the Missal used, say for a Sunday, pre- and post- Trent. I think that would give us an apple to apple comparison of the two, and to see what changed.

[@ArchoSoma]

I was sure before 'clown mass' was a figure of speech. Looked it up, incredible what some think is okay.

[@aureum7479]

You have no authority to claim the Novus Ordo was a mistake

[@cfban]

@@aureum7479 you don't need authority to make the incontrovertible observation that something that failed to achieve its goals and had many harmful unintended consequences was and is a mistake.

[@pcola4594]

@@aureum7479 Christ said we shall know them by their fruit. So yeah, you can determine if something was helpful or not lol.

[@anthonyjones866]

Here's what Joseph Ratzinger (who would later become Pope Benedict XVI) said about it: “The problem of the new Missal lies in its abandonment of a historical process that was always continual, before and after St. Pius V, and in the creation of a completely new book, although it was compiled of old material, the publication of which was accompanied by a prohibition of all that came before it, which, besides, is unheard of in the history of both law and liturgy. And I can say with certainty, based on my knowledge of the conciliar debates and my repeated reading of the speeches made by the Council Fathers, that this does not correspond to the intentions of the Second Vatican Council” (Letter to Prof. Wolfgang Waldstein, 1976). I highly encourage you to read the book "The Once and Future Roman Rite" by Dr. Peter Kwasniewski, which looks at the differences between the old and new Masses and the providential merits of the former.

[@matthaeusprime6343]

@aureum7479 you can look at something objectively and see there are things that are wrong with it. The NO is objectively inferior on face value. You don't need a degree to see that.

[@tomredd9025]

@@cfban It DID achieve its goals!!!!

[@guillerminaortega53]

Hi! The image of the priest use is Fr. Scott from the parish I attended which is St. Robert Bellarmine Chicago IL. Very cool to see 😊

[@gonzalovelascoc.2953]

The "new Mass" is wonderful: the altar at the center, the Priest and the assembly all looking towards it, the readings and prayers in our own language make us more and more participative... Remember the original (Apostle's) Mass was not in latin, but in Aramaic and perhaps other languages!! How comes that a group of laymen know better than 3000+ Bishops at the 2nd V. C. !!???????

[@Consume_Crash]

Was the Church defective for centuries and centuries when the Roman rite was in Latin?

[@David-ep2hg]

@@gonzalovelascoc.2953 just an fyi V2 and the councle called for Latin and gregorian chant to be the norm in parishes.

[@johnnotrealname8168]

The Bishops at Vatican II did not make that Rite though.

[@mattmattvw]

Seems simple enough that we should maintain the ability to attend either NO or TLM. I have loved ones that prefer to attend one or the other. They all share the love of God and frequent His Sacraments. I don’t quite understand why this issue is so divisive other than the apparent intentional reduction of TLM. In childhood, folks went to both, and no one seemed to be arguing about which is better or worse.

[@scootahscoot9389]

It’s in English (and other local languages) so let’s start calling it the NEW ORDER 💯

[@JudeMalachi]

I don't believe that Freser has correctly understood BXVI's intentions. How could the liturgy enshrined at Trent really be an Extraordinary Form (EF) of the Roman rite when it's tied to an entirely distinct calendar, lectionary and Divine Office? The two things don't fit together, and since they both exist at the same time and both make the claim of being the authentic Roman rite, then how could they not but create a rivalry? However, if we did actually make the Mass of the Liturgy enshrined by the Council of Trent, i.e. what we might call the Traditional Mass-while calling it the "Latin" Mass is at best redundant as all Roman rite liturgies are nominally Latin liturgies-into a genuine EF of the Novus Ordo (leaving the Mass of Paul VI as the OF) by bringing into conformity with the new calendar, lectionary and Divine Office of the Novus Ordo, then such a rivalry would be impossible as something can't compete with itself. After all people who celebrate Eucharistic prayer No.3 don't argue that those celebrating Eucharistic prayer No.2 are celebrating a lessor liturgy. The problem is that competing liturgies will divide the Church, but nevertheless people who celebrate the Roman rite of the Latin Church should have a plurality of Mass options, as this was always the intent of the Novus Ordo-and this flexibility as well as diversity of liturgical practice it produces fits the times we are living in.

[@davidmyhra4931]

I tolerate the novus ordo but it’s difficult. What I don’t ever feel is god there. I go to fulfill my obligation and find my Catholicism elsewhere.

[@jaredbennett266]

I always hear people bring up guitars as not being an appropriate instrument. While I understand that are styles of music that aren’t appropriate, to say the instrument is inappropriate , I believe goes too far. I play guitar for my parish, and I put a lot of work into crafting a sound to highest of my abilities to uplift the hearts and minds of the people to God. I play the guitar as an instrument. Guitars are beautiful instruments with a range of sounds--the problem is most guitarists don’t play it as an instrument, just as a guitar. They aren’t musicians, they are guitarists. I don’t know if that makes sense to everyone, but I just wish anyone who says guitars should not be used could come and listen to what is possible. Think you will see it’s more about style than the kind of instrument being used.

[@moonbeamsinajar]

I grew up going to the TLM. If I can't make it to a TLM I go to a NO. Very thankful to be able to fulfill my Sunday obligation. I remind myself that the consecration is happening and Jesus is there. However, I'd be lying if I didn't say that I have major cringe during masses said at 3 of the 4 NO parishes I have attended. 😢

[@nickmitchell5568]

I'm honestly tired of this debate. I think there's just pros and cons to everything and even in the context of Church leadership, these are still human beings making decisions and sometimes making poor ones. I don't know that this rivalry between TLM and NO is going to be resolved. The only possible thing I can think to do, and the only advice I could give is just to go to mass, whether it's TLM or NO. If your parish seems irreverent, or off in some way, to a point where you can't focus on the purpose of the mass (which is to worship God and receive the Eucharist), then you either need to analyze your own faults or find a parish that is more conducive to your spirituality. I'm not trying to say it's all about how mass makes you feel... Not at all. But if something happening at your parish is is a stumbling block or distraction for you, then do the best you can to address the problem and get yourself to a place where you can focus on God. If you're a TLM person, i dont know that you will change the mind of an NO person. If NO, i don't think you'll get a TLM to change their tune. Let's stop trying to convert catholics to our version of Catholicism, however justified you think your position is. This debate is exhausting, and I'm frankly tired of it. Go to mass, recieve the sacraments, love God, love your neighbor, pray for the church. I don't buy that we were meant to split hairs on this particular issue. Of course the liturgy is important, but I don't see a better solution right now then us Catholics at least encouraging each other in attending mass, wherever you go, whether NO or TLM.

[@packersstink8519]

short answer yes long answer yes

[@beatlecristian]

My question is for Matt Fradd. Do you go to the Novus Ordo every Sunday?

[@zabyatayde1611]

Hey Matt, I grew up in Mexico and attended mass there, I go to mass here in the states now. I guess if its not a TLM ( which I just found out about in 2024 and attended 1 time) then its Novus Ordo, how can I know its not good? We have adoration on wednesdays, regular mass n Sundays and we di have the guitars and drums. I attend mass in spanish by the way, the english mas has a choir. I guess what Im asking is if my whole life as a catholic service attendee has been bad?

[@michellemcdermott2026]

It's not bad,it's Heaven on Earth!

[@andym5995]

I’ve been to quite a few Novus Ordo masses around the country (for work travel). I’ve never once encountered this hippie nonsense everyone talks about. It’s always reverent, deliberate, and edifying. It’s not all that uncommon to see veils and kneelers or hear the priest use a bit of Latin. I think these types of conversations are largely based on anecdotes from the 70s and such. If 99.9% of all the bishops of the world agreed the Mass needed a reform, that’s clearly the Holy Spirit at work. I’m not saying what we initially got was perfect, but going back to the TLM is not the answer.

[@JustBeSimple_24]

It is really sad to see Catholics keep saying TLM and Novus Ordo like two different Christian denominations.