Water Margin the Classic Chinese Novel that influenced Japanese Literature, Anime & Yakuza

Water Margin, deemed as the most brutal and immoral classical Chinese novel, had been banned periodically & whitewashed. In this episode, I will talk about what this controversial is novel is all about and how it greatly influenced Japanese literature. In japan, this novel is called Suikoden.
🕒[TIMESTAMP]🕒
0:00 Introduction
1:05 Brief Synopsis of Water Margin
3:01 Against Confucian Morality
4:03 Complex Ingroup Conflict
5:24 The Problematic Second "Half"
10:42 Water Margin in Japan (Suikoden)
12:05 How Water Margin Came to Japan
15:40 How Water Margin Influenced Japan
🔗LINKS TO MENTIONED VIDEOS🔗
Sakoku - Intellectual Development in "Isolationist" Japan: • Sakoku - Intellectual ...
Three Unifiers of Sengoku Japan: • ANIMATED Three Unifier...
Romance of the Three Kingdoms Animated Summary: • ANIMATED Romance of th...
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www.epidemicsound.com
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🎥PLAYLISTS🎥
Qin Dynasty Origin
• Qin Dynasty Origin
Cool Chinese History (By release)
• Cool Chinese History
Hundred Schools of Thoughts:
• Hundred Schools of Tho...
📚SOURCES:
水滸傳 (120回)
罗立群, 2008, 中国武侠小说史
中島 恵, 2016, 江戸期は空前の中国ブーム、『三国志』が大流行
William C. Hedberg, 2020, The Japanese Discovery of Chinese Fiction: The Water Margin and the Making of a National Canon
Liangyan Ge, 2001, Out of the Margins: The Rise of Chinese Vernacular Fiction
Liangyan Ge, 2003, Authoring "Authorial Intention:" Jin Shengtan as Creative Critic
Martin W. Huang, 1994, Author(ity) and Reader in Traditional Chinese Xiaoshuo Commentary
Henry Lem, Branding “Literary Genius” in Jin Shengtan’s 70 Chapter Edition of the Water Margin
C. T. Hsia, 1968, The Classic Chinese Novel
Claudine Salmon (ed), 2013, Literary Migrations: Traditional Chinese Fiction in Asia (17th-20th Centuries)
Haruo Shirane (ed), 2002, Early Modern Japanese Literature
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#History #Literature #Documentary #Asia

[@CoolHistoryBros]

While Japan greatly appreciate Water Margin, it had different meaning and significance to them compared to the Chinese readers. But I think it’s great how the same text could mean different things to different cultures, but still considered a masterpiece.

[@gille90]

what about the 4th masterpiece . dream of the red chamber. never heard of that one in the west. t

[@Palmakify]

Which TV adaption should be watched?

[@brunofranco4416]

THANK YOU SO MUCH! I CANT WAIT FOR THIS SERIES

[@hanchiman]

@@gille90 I think reason why Red Chamber wasn't so "known" outside of China could be that it a drama novel, and didn't have much action adventure like Three Kingdom, Water Margin or even Journey to the West. Still would be nice to have Jin Pei Mei to be translated, which is basically a Erotic novel based on a story arc of Water Margin, like Wu Chongs sister in Law

[@zetareticulan321]

@CP Mak I recommend the 1998 cctv version. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Water_Margin_(1998_TV_series)

[@animation1234111]

The Water Margin is like if somebody novelized a DND campaign where all the players were murder hobos.

[@inotaishu1]

And cannibals

[@boulderbash19700209]

@@inotaishu1 True that.

[@hunterkiller1440]

Journey to the West: Desciple, help me! Dream of Red Chamber: Sister, help me! Romance of Three Kingdom: Young brothers, help me! Water Margin: Young brother, help me!

[@aswiran]

lol well said!

[@CaiZhongwen2023]

Haha😂

[@Wann-zo7rn2qn4i]

“江湖” Jianghu, basically represents those who shun the rules and rigidness of the civil society and the government. They live according to their own "code of conduct" and are not beholden to any authority. There's a lot of food for thought in the Water Margin. I haven't read the entire work, but I remember this line from it - "Before you throw away a system that has worked for a thousand years, be sure that it's not because you see only problems. Be very sure you know what's to replace it."

[@inotaishu1]

Do you also remember the revenge cannibalism?

[@da1stlangzai]

The pugilistic world

[@grandadmiralzaarin4962]

It is always an auspicious day when one of the four great classics are covered 😊

[@kennywong4239]

A bit of background on the Water Margin story. They were actual rebels during the end of the Northern Song dynasty. Led by Song Jiang, he and his band of 36 men attacked towns and counties. However, after capturing the government offices, they would open the government storage and distribute the grains and monies. After a few years, they were defeated by a general named Zhang Shuye and surrendered with amnesty. Not much is known after that as the Northern Song dynasty fell soon by the Jurchen Jin dynasty. Since then, people had been writing fan fiction about Song Jiang and his band of 36.

[@dubuyajay9964]

So, this guy was wrong about them being pure fiends in the first 70 chapters?

[@theawesomeman9821]

Sounds like he's Robin Hood

[@cupidok2768]

Y sounds like robinhood

[@ranjithanura520]

I have read the book. And I have the down loaded and printed book with me.

[@richardhaw9757]

reading this novel turned me into a benevolent, righteous youth who traveled by rivers and lakes. of course, it never ends well.

[@arielquelme]

Lmao.. U followed ur dreams

[@kuroazrem5376]

Keeping track of 108 protagonists has to be a headache. Kudos to the writers!

[@Gb-be9bn]

Some are given more attention than others. I believe "Nine-tailed Turtle" Tao Zongwang only has 2 lines about him for example

[@boulderbash19700209]

I played Koei's Bandit King of Ancient China, so I knew their names, although the game also let you to recruit generals from government officials and Fang La followers too.

[@nidohime6233]

Say that to Pokémon fans.

[@lucinae8510]

That was amazing! I always wanted to read the Four Great Classical Novels of Chinese Literature: Water Margin, Romance of the Three Kingdoms, Journey to the West and Dream of the Red Chamber. But I was worried it would take me forever to understand the cultural backgrounds and why these novels are so studied and remembered. Especially with why Japanese media is so obsessed with them all besides the last (and why that didn't take off). Your introductions to these novels and pop culture awareness is exactly what I needed to gain the confidence in reading them!

[@guangyang547]

The dream of red chamber is very different from all other three. It is hard to describe its beauty, linguistically, culturally, artistically. Some thinks it is like the sculpture God Venus. Beauty with amputation as its end 1/3 got lost and another wrote the end.

[@calamity916]

Definitely looking forward to your Water Margin series. Can't wait!

[@user-kh6qf4jf9p]

Yes, I loved your "summarized" series! Really looking forward to the upcoming Water Margin summarized series!

[@jasonblalock4429]

Ooh, definitely looking forward to your summarized series. I'm familiar with RTK and Journey To The West, but I never got around to Water Margin. (Also, does this mean that Inuyasha is basically "What if Wukong starred in Water Margin"?)

[@CoolHistoryBros]

"(Also, does this mean that Inuyasha is basically "What if Wukong starred in Water Margin"?)" LOL! I think you found the secret formula.

[@ajithsidhu7183]

@@CoolHistoryBros what can we learn about hao han from this book/novel

[@ajithsidhu7183]

@@CoolHistoryBros isn't this the chinese version of dulla jatt

[@maribellehamoy6087]

And what if Tang Sanzang is genderbent into Water Margin as well?

[@roundninja]

This is really exciting! I'm going to try reading the actual book this year and see if I can keep up with this channel.

[@JelloFluoride]

Thank you for sharing this with us!

[@Elementa2006]

I've always found the story intriguing, I'm one of those people who discovered the story because of the Suikoden games, I found the story about a group of people from all walks of life teaming together an interesting concept. I even went through a Water Margin phase for a while back in college when I tried to read or watch any Water Margin related media, including the classic Shaw Bros. film adaptations. I know you already talked about him in "Wu Zetian and the Book of Evil" but I would like to see a more comprehensive video on Di Renjie and what led to the Judge Dee stories and their effects on detective fiction.

[@Rottooth]

If you guys are interested, there's a KZbin channel called, the water margin podcast in which the reader goes through each chapter with commentary explaining certain cultural aspects of the setting that might be alien or confusing for non chinese listeners.

[@GentlemenofAction]

Finished it about 2 months, it was great

[@NudeJawn]

The Water Margin Podcast was so good. A perfect modern retelling.

[@alkristopher]

Yuuuuuuus, so glad to run into another fan!

[@johnchao2422]

The dude is such a g

[@PoliglotaOnline]

CJ, you're such a beast of a content creator, please never stop (and consider uploading something to "Never Stop Thinking", 'One Dnd' is around the corner ;) much love from Brazil!

[@ahmadyulyfirmansah5937]

I have book of Water Margin in Indonesia Language(batas tepi air), I play game Suikoden of PSx, PSP, NDS and PS2, also have watch old version of Water Margin series. Most story' concentrate on 108 Star of Destiny Hero.

[@Kaizer177]

GensoSuikoden or Suikdoen video game is how I encounter such rich Chinese literature

[@SeoulMan]

Suikoden 1 and 2 are my absolute favorite Non-Square RPGs. I also look forward to Eiyuden.

[@leosuwandi7005]

Suikoden is my favourite RPG game more than FF, it's unique that we must recruit 108 characters with different skills

[@dev_04791]

Brilliant video, hope we get more such content on Chinese classics.

[@hadiferlan3760]

I love Suikoden 2. It`s an unforgettable experience

[@jasonaskk]

Thank you for upcoming summarized series. In movies, the outlaws fought Fang La only. In writing, they also fought Liao. In writing, Lin Chong died of paralysis. In movie, Lin Chong died of not avenging Gao Qiu. I will be waiting for your videos. 😁

[@nonancourt]

Yess i am listening to the audiobook, it's a long one but an interesting one

[@emiliasmith5561]

Can't wait for the summary! And also for the Dream of the Red Chamber because I gave up after 2 chapters

[@songjunw8981]

You finally talking about my favorite novel ！ 😄😄😄 definitely suggest folks go to watch the TV drama too!

[@jonzcool8005]

Thank you so much for covering this story. Also I love how Rui made Song Jiang a manlet lol

[@madderhat5852]

Thank you , another book to add to my reading list.

[@masango3589]

Oh wow I've played Suikoden 2! Its a really great game

[@hanchiman]

A bit unrelated to your video, but I noticed in the comments that alot of none Chinese have way more knowledge than me in Three Kingdoms and now Water Margin. Makes me happy to see Chinese novels having wider audience outside of Asia. Hope one day they will also encounter Dream of Red Chamber too

[@drkaufman]

This a great book. Thanks for the video. Brings back memories from when I was reading it. My intro to wuxia!

[@timothykwoh6172]

There is a saying amongst Chinese families: "When you are young, do not read Water Margin. When you are old, do not read Romance of the Three Kingdoms." Maybe you should comment on this.

[@digitaljanus]

There might be more similarities with Robin Hood after all: the earliest Robin Hood ballads frequently depict him and his men as rude, violent assholes, and they're clearly of the yeoman class (commoners, but free unlike most peasants/serfs, and typically small landholders), and more concerned with basic generosity to all individuals than redistributing wealth to the poor. It's the later Robin Hood stories that elevate him to the nobility and add the "take from the rich, give to the poor" and other more explicitly political themes like the Saxons revolting against Norman oppression.

[@yuxuanliu338]

It is an excellent comparison but the truth might be the opposite. In the earlier story, Water Margin was more oriented to the general public as oral literature. In that period Water Margin retained a great deal of good imagery of heroic robbers and how they fought against evil to protect the good. At some later time, a talented literary man, who collected and wrote most of the book, wanted to reach a predominantly educated literary audience. He added many twisted, dark hints that show the brutal side of these bandits and the weaknesses of heroic characters, indicating heroes are not actually as glorious as in folklore. He added many 'realist' style of writing compared to the fantasy style that still partly remained in today's work.

[@bmlgordon]

I was looking for this comment. I’ve read a fair amount of ballad texts, including the Robin Hood ballads, and there are instances of Robin and his men being violent and callous, wanton killings and sexual assaults. The ballads were cleaned up immensely before becoming children’s stories.

[@alkristopher]

Awesome. I'd also recommend the Outlaws of the Marsh podcast, if you'd prefer to listen rather than read. It's a long one, but probably the best way to get the full story.

[@o00o0o0o0o0o]

Great video

[@zetareticulan321]

Full episodes of Water Margin with English subtitles! m.kzbin.info/aero/PLJPEbKQEnORNAl8p5XHisg_VSbaB0dLul

[@dialaskisel5929]

I can't wait to watch your summary! As long as this version of Suikoden doesn't have missable Stars of Destiny so I miss out on the good ending :/

[@devofanj9452]

Heh. None of them are "missed", but this version has no "good" ending. At best, it can be described as bittersweet.

[@AkiKii519]

thank you for the wonderful book description and Chinese morality lesson.

[@jarnaez1]

Very eager to see the summarized series. I've also really enjoyed the water margin podcast which was a chapter by chapter summary podcast that just finished recently (he also plans to do investiture of the gods and has one done for three kingdoms). One thing I was curious about was the casual cannibalism depicted in the novel. I've seen some papers talk a out it as a metaphorical evening of the classes but most of what I came across while looking wasn't in English so any further context on that would be great.

[@alkristopher]

Always great to see another fan of that podcast!

[@MrBoondaba]

I was about to ask for a Journey to the West breakdown citing it as a significant modern media influence originating from a 16th century Chinese novel - then realized I'd searched for "hourney" (typo) on your video page. So, I'm heading over to the JttW video you already have now.

[@SMPsis]

The way East Asian cultures shared and interpreted literature seems similar to Western Europe and King Arthur stories! They passed the stories around, being re-told to suit each region's taste, being influenced by and influencing other retellings. I just think that's neat :] Is there a particular translation of Water Margin you recommend? I am leaning towards "All Men are Brothers," because I have read two books by the translator. I am inclined to trust her translation because though she is American, she was raised in China, and her original books seem to follow more Chinese literary conventions than Western (Tragic arcs and all.)

[@saptomo]

CJ! Yes! After ROTK and then water margin! You still have a lot in line....in the future please also summarize Feng Shen Yan Yi.

[@JCYajsab94]

I've been waiting for some one to cover this... is there a chance where you do a whole video covering the tale and it's heroes ?

[@damianbowen9492]

Used to love the tv series as a kid, I remember admiring the characters but it was so long ago I struggle to remember specifics so I found this really interesting.

[@Running-withscissors]

Immediately caught my eye to watch this video. I am old haha The Water Margin was the most beloved TV series I watched as a child in the 70's. Im not sure I have ever seen a TV show with such diverse characters and weaving story since honestly. I know very little of the original story and all these years later, I guess, better late than never ;)

[@ninjaluc79]

Fans of the Suikoden video game series, especially the second game, please stand up!

[@HomerNarr]

On your other Watermargin video i recognised the location: Liang Shan Po. In the 80s i saw a TV Series "Die Rebellen vom Liang Shan Po". I realized i was watching the Japanese 1973 "Suikoden" TV Show. I did not remembet much. But man, i enjoyed your Watermargin and Romance of the three Kingdoms Videos.

[@ginzomelo]

Yahoooo! Water Margin summarized!!!!

[@usvidragonslayer3091]

Nice video

[@tllgestalt1942]

Damn, I've been thinking about reading this. I need to get around to that soon.

[@fifihoang61]

Yes please do cover water margin. And thank you

[@SmithyWebermanJaegermanJensen]

Suikoden fans would love this

[@bobrong9645]

I read Jin Shengtan's version and I absolutely love it. I think a good analogy with a western work would be the three Musketeers: the narrator keep telling us how brave they are, how important justice is to them, how they value friendship above all else, but really they are just a bunch of drunks/idiots/perverts who just do whatever they want.

[@blackrebelz]

The personalities of the Water Margin bold fellows are far more varied than that. Some of them were honorable soldiers captured in battle. One was a well-behaved horse doctor who was forced to join the outlaws after being framed (by the outlaws themselves!) for murder. Yang Zhi, one of my favorites, just wanted to live up to the honor of ancestors. But had no choice but to join the band after a string of bad luck. The markedly different personalities and life stories help explain its undying appeal.

[@sinoroman]

Maybe one day Water Margin will be popular worldwide 🙌

[@jamesbarnes3832]

"0ne day", ha. It already is for people in the know around the world.

[@ma70er]

I've been watching your Animated Water Margin video with the Suikoden Tablet of Stars opened on another page. Some characters were really quite obvious who they were influenced by from the book, they were easy to guess which without looking it up.

[@Gigas0101]

I got that copy of Water Margin! Admittedly I wouldn't mind getting a less abridged version but I'm not sure how to go about tracking down the complete story. Honestly I love the descriptions of meals in the book, at some point I gotta prepare some of the cuisine from this book. The summarized series will be a real treat, as here's a lot of nuance I know I missed.

[@ghostofyeats]

Nice video, I'm glad you're spotlighting Water Margins, which isn't as well known as the other three famous novels. I actually think that it's three-part structure was the intended arc, regardless who wrote it, and that the outlaws' downfall was necessary for the story to work. I always felt that the outlaws were simultaneously an extended metaphor and extended fantasy of the scholar-officials (or aspirants thereof) that comprised the main literate audience at the time. How do you balance what you feel to be righteous and just, with what you are obliged to do (i.e. obey the emperor)? Tons and tons of scholar-officials were exiled, punished, or downright executed because they asserted what they thought was righteous in court, and ended up displeasing the emperor. (Or displeasing the faction in court that the emperor was listening to at the time.) Su Shi was exiled for this; Sima Qian spoke up and had to choose death or castration. The story's attempt to reconcile these two equally important but sometimes contradictory value systems reminds me a bit of the English mediaeval poem Sir Gawain and the Green Knight & the other Arthurian legends, which tries to reconcile chivalry (violent, honor-based) with Christianity (spiritual, without concept of honor and no glorification of inflicting violence). I think the outlaws are a projected fantasy on the part of the highly cultivated scholar-official class in an attempt to negotiate between righteousness and (Confucian) morality. The outlaws are, throughout the novel, opposed to the corrupt local officials. These represent the literati's court enemies, the bureaucrats the scholar-officials know are bad but whom they're afraid of criticizing because they have influence. So every time one of the outlaws kills a corrupt official, it's like the upright scholar-officials can fantasizing that justice is being served. Another reason, I think, for the outlaws being outlaws is due to Yue Fei's legacy; Yue Fei was famously martial, famously loyal to the emperor, and had a famously tragic end. IIRC, upright officials in the book tend to be spared (and anyway Song Jiang is one of them -- he is literally a sholar-official who becomes an outlaw, thus an avatar for the audience). But the price of fantasy is reality, and I think that explains the downward arc of the last third of the book. The entire book is predicated on wrestling with the balance between righteousness and Confucian morality, and, almost like Wagner's solution in Tristan und Isolde, the only way it works out is death. Also, although the outlaws are immoral by our standards, acts that shock us today probably wouldn't be as shocking back then. On Li Kui killing that boy, I remember reading about a legal case from the Han dynasty in which it was decided that a son should be executed because he reported his father for a crime, despite the righteousness of the deed of reporting a crime; apparently worse was the unfilial act. IIRC, there's also a part in Romance of the Three Kingdoms where a righteous farmer kills his wife and feeds her to his guest (I forget who it is - Liu Bei?). That's an example of righteousness! And notably, although the outlaws are a rowdy bunch, I can't recall them committing adultery, least of all with each others' wives. So there were definitely certainly types of immorality that, because they were abhorred by the scholar-official class, was not written into the outlaws' behavior.

[@schadenfreude6274]

Water Margin isn't as well known as the other 3 novels? Did you even watch this video? HAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :)

[@ninjaluc79]

@@schadenfreude6274 I think he meant not as massively popular as RoTK or Journey to the West.

[@gunh4129]

@@ninjaluc79 Maybe because Koei hasn't make a Musou game with Water Margin as the base. But it is understand-able as Water Margin is a story of moral ambiguity in today standard moral value . Who know what will those children's think after they obsessed with the game and then read the novel. They may form a gang with "righteous mind" pridefully.

[@buqtair3129]

How would I learn about these topics without your channel?

[@alexwatts1064]

Black Whirlwind was a companion in Jade Empire. I did not know that came from somewhere else before watching this. Awesome!

[@andyzhang7890]

Awesome video. I suck at Chinese- and more importantly, I don’t feel fluent in Chinese Culture, but one of my goals is to eventually be able to read all four classic novels, starting from my childhood fav Journey to the West and eventually making my way to Dream of the Red Chamber (please cover that story one day). Thank you so much for these super insightful videos that put things into context 🔥🔥🙏🙏

[@lesliewen3428]

lol you're everywhere

[@lam7499]

Eyy I'm just finishing up the same challenge myself! Currently on the third volume of dream of red chamber You'll learn a lot just by reading through the stories, good luck to you and have fun.

[@andyzhang7890]

@@lesliewen3428 LMAOO I’m chronically online, how u been bro

[@sws212]

To be fair, I wouldn't recommend Red Chamber, it's just a different type of writing. No action like the other three.

[@shanwnt1657]

@@sws212 Dream of the Red Chamber was produced in western opera form by Taiwanese director Stan Lai with a Chinese and pan -Asian cast for the San Francisco opera.

[@MarcusAgrippa390]

Regardless of the content I have to say that it's a really good name too! I wonder if other more modern authors took names of ancient Chinese authors and anglicized them? Thanks for another excellent video my friend!

[@schadenfreude6274]

I was hoping to have a 108 gangbang pr0n. They should call it "Water Squirting Margin" :)

[@crypto66]

Suikoden 2 was my very first RPG, and opened my eyes to vast world of tales and fantasies; and while the sequel is even further from the broad strokes of the first game, it wouldn't exist if not for Water Margin.

[@raisingwings2913]

Too bad Konami doesn't realize how great it is

[@alkristopher]

@@raisingwings2913 That's why Eiyuden Chronicles is on its way.

[@alkristopher]

That's a hell of a first RPG (the fifth game is even better, if you ask me). I've always likened the game to a cross between Pokemon and Game of Thrones, while the novel is "what if Klingons put on a performance of Robin Hood, and set it in China"?

[@raisingwings2913]

@@alkristopher in a way , it is Pokemon meets Game of Thrones but better

[@ninjaluc79]

Same here, and I still play it repeatedly around 20 years later. I have also played Suikoden 1 and am planning to play the PS2 Suikoden games. Suikoden 3 may be a bit far from the broad strokes of the first two games, but its Tenkai Star Thomas is actually the closest to the original Tenkai Star Song Jiang, in that both were not warriors unlike the other Tenkais (although Thomas has potential to become a fine one, you just need to train him A LOT for him to reach that potential) but they did most of the work in gathering their respective 108 Stars of Destiny. Fun fact: Suikoden 2 was said to be based on the Chu-Han Contention between Liu Bang (Riou the MC) and Xiang Yu (split into Luca Blight, who got his martial reputation and his more brutal side; and Jowy, who got his more compassionate side), which CJ had already covered in a previous video. Liu Bang's chief strategist Han Xin was split into Shu, who got his strategic talents; and Klaus, who got his humility and origin story of working previously for Xiang Yu.

[@alannasarafat9938]

and now i miss suikoden series game

[@neilgcffitz]

There is a podcast about the Water Margin. 100+ episodes. The same guy also made a podcast about The Romance of the three kingdoms. Name of the podcast are the names of the books.

[@sukotsutoCSSR]

This is my favorite novel of all time growing up - but I never finished it past the point where they gathered the 108 as I was already aware of how it ended. I could understand the sentiments of the people at the time regarding the final season arc.

[@Majo_Ellen]

Another glorious video to wrap it up. ✨ .. huh? Wait, you can't just tell me about someone marrying a murderous dog and leave me on a cliffhanger like that!!! Come back!

[@jcnavera]

One memorable episode from Water Margin is when Wu Song nearly ate dumplings made from human meat (he saw public hair in the filling!) and almost became dumplings himself!

[@alkristopher]

Ever been so drunk that you beat tigers to death with your bare hands? Well, a funny thing happened to me as I stumbled home from an all-night bender... (Baba O'Reilley plays)

[@unimenjayatextile1478]

So this is story is inspiration of folklore horor story about dumpling make from human meat in asia.

[@ucnguyen6375]

@@unimenjayatextile1478 more like some real life events influence those stories, famine can make people do a lot of terrible things

[@shanwnt1657]

Wuxia director Tsui Hark used human meat buns trope in his film New Dragon Gate Inn, with Maggie Cheung as the innkeeper in charge of fresh meat.

[@DFMSelfprotection]

I loved the TV series that used to play on BBC... it was a fantastic story and series.

[@maximilliantarmidi6323]

Thank you

[@ballsack6547]

I'm away to try find the Audio book now

[@hudaalfaa]

I played mount and blade : warband 108 heroes mod, so this is the tale How interesting..

[@iwatchDVDsonXbox360]

Excited for Water Margin series (and potentially Dream of the Red Chamber), but still hope we'll also get a historical series.

[@ucnguyen6375]

The most memorable story in Water Margin for me is the story of Dương Chí (I don't know know the English name for him, so I will just use the Vietnamese name instead) . So this guy is basically some police officer of that time, who used to work for the government, he was given the job to escort a ton of government supplies. But because of Ngô Dụng using cheap trick to knock him and his team out and steal all the goods, he became a criminal, put in jail and later become a bandit leader himself. And that is not all, Ngô Dụng (the advisor of the Lương Sơn Bạc gang) later gaslight and manipulate him to join their criminal gang, become one of 108 hảo hán too.

[@soegengsoeprijanto45]

Blue faced demon yang zhi

[@Trgn]

Dương = Yang, Chí = Zhi, Ngô = Wu, Dụng = Yong. Lương Sơn = Liangshan

[@kendonl.taylor5111]

😊

[@Mamba219]

You aren't kidding about the last few chapters being a tragedy. I've read the novel three or four times and all the times after the first I pretty much had to stop after Zhang Shun died. It's just blow after blow

[@jamesbarnes3832]

But... Spoilers!

[@donp244]

Suikoden is my favorite rog of all time, I don't know it was based on a book! I'm getting it,

[@kokovas]

I grew up reading this shui hu chuan when i was about 12-13. Learned about brotherhood, justice and morale. Really good story, although kinda use harsh language for young readers 😁. It's better to also read three kingdoms with this, to balance our learning of the principles 😂.. but afterwards, might get interested to read more about pang jin lian 🤤

[@zetareticulan321]

In my opinion, the 1998 cctv version is the best tv show adaption.

[@Moepowerplant]

Appreciate the sense that long ago times were not that different from the present, tatoeba, both times wrote fanfics or homages.

[@ouwejongen7526]

I remember reading a Singaporean comic of it and learned finally what "values dissonance" mean. Because I absolutely loathe Li Kui, one of the heroes

[@patera83]

They’re not Sherwood Forest’s Merry Men. They’re more like the Sopranos.. can’t wait for a Netflix adaptation!!

[@boulderbash19700209]

No! Don't!

[@joseph9n6]

Yes!!! Finally

[@unholydanger]

You forgot to cover Water Margin Sequel, an extended novel ( 水浒后传) which tells the story of the remaining characters who survived the prequel, escaped to Siam (Thailand) and re-banded again even with the descendants of some of the previous 108 characters to form a new rebellion against the corrupted officials of China. This time they succeeded in taking their revenge.

[@zetareticulan321]

Could that have influenced Ong Bak 2? Remember how there was a group of bandits in Thailand from China and other places?

[@northerncassowary8567]

Damn, it never gets easy hearing the ending

[@kuroazrem5376]

I think I like the outlaws version.

[@boyanpenev9822]

I found the first 2 thirds (until the 108 stars were gathered) translated, and it could be a bit long, but it was... interesting. Seeing the protagonists at times act like total jerks made it clear just how different the culture was. On the plus side, it was quite clear where Bioware borrowed from for their Black Whirlwind character.

[@zetareticulan321]

We need Jade Empire 2!

[@jokoalim3470]

Where can i watch water margin series with english subtitle ?

[@DragonAmongClouds]

It's a shame that "All Men Are Brothers" wasn't translated to English ; I'd love to watch it.

[@Dave_from_Aust]

Dude check out Chinese Lore Podcast. It’s better than the TV series

[@zetareticulan321]

The 1998 cctv version is the best TV series adaption in my opinion. You can find it with English subtitles if you look hard enough.

[@flipxadoboxkanin]

Lu zhishen, lu jun yi, and wu song are my favorite characters

[@MrArthoz]

Right now my free times are spent reading many varieties of novels ranging from Chinese Wuxia, Korean fantasy and Japan Isekai. I wonder how future generations a thousand years from now would regard our novels of today?

[@boulderbash19700209]

Remember the episode from Star Trek Next Generation about Q people who got bored because they have eternal life and have read any novels that were ever written?

[@mitonaarea5856]

Boring and mass produced trash.

[@truthboom]

If internet survives and data not erased, they will perfect the template and regarded 99% of past novels as bad

[@vincently1995]

108 Heroes of Water Margin

[@SeanHiruki]

The one classic I haven’t read yet. Love Three Kingdoms and Journey to the West.

[@vkieuvongngam]

Please do the dream of the red chamber next.

[@charliewen5610]

I remember there was a PC game based on this literature around the '80 / '90. Quite famous and good game, however it lacks the popularity against RTK games as there was only 1 game (as far as I know)

[@raipe125]

No hay traducion al español?

[@nidohime6233]

Existen libros traducidos que incluyen páginas en chino de la novela "A la orilla del agua" (no confundir otro libro con el mismo título), pero es caro de cojones. Por ejemplo el de la de Foreign Languages Press. Lo malo es que al ser una novela poco conocida en Occidente es muy difícil encontrar ejemplares, y menos que estén en español.

[@lerneanlion]

Is it just me or China and Japan made Fan Fiction a thing before Fan Fiction became a thing? I think Water Margin is sort of the contrast of The Seven Heroes and The Five Gallants. What's your thought on this, CJ? P.S: Is it save to say that the Guardians of the Galaxy is basically the Water Margin in the galactic society?

[@CoolHistoryBros]

Actually, all culture's literature started out as "fan fiction", as they embellish the stories and epics they heard. Illiad, the Roman assimilation of Greek gods, Arthurian romance, they can all be considered "fan fiction". I have only watched the first Guardians of the Galaxy movie, so I don't know enough about it. But I think it can kinda loosely fit. But Water Margin is a lot edgier and some of the outlaws are just too hard to redeem in the western moral landscape. I mean killing a 4 years old kid to coerce a man to join your band is just unredeemable in most society, IMO.

[@lerneanlion]

@@CoolHistoryBros And have you ever heard of The Seven Heroes and The Five Gallants before? And if you do, do you think it is the contrast to the Water Margin in a way? After all, the series featured Bao Zheng and Gongsun Ce, who are officials in charge of Kaifeng on behalf of Emperor Renzong after all.

[@CoolHistoryBros]

Yeah, I covered it briefly in the history of wuxia fiction video. It is quite interesting in. the way it combines gong'an fiction and wuxia. But it's not controversial at all. That's why it doesn't get talked about as much. LOL!

[@lerneanlion]

@@CoolHistoryBros What I meant is that such a series like The Seven Heroes and The Five Gallants can be used by the governemnt to make themselves looked good, right? I'm saying this out of fear and hatred toward propaganda, of course. And I will not be happy to see one of my favorite series being used in such a way.

[@dubuyajay9964]

Look at Gilgamesh. You would find conflicting stories in the same set of tablets. One moment Enkidu is dead and he would show up perfectly fine later on. Even though Gilgamesh failed to bring him back from the underworld and his own personal quest for immortality.

[@Billy-Mandalay]

I suspect the Hang Tuah/Hang Jebat legends in Malaysia was influenced by it... Choose... Loyalty to your lousy sultan, or to your brother in arms.

[@powerist209]

For some reason part of me thought about Warhammer making Water Margin for Cathay if they release Fantasy Roleplay. Mostly because Water Margin’s anti hero being more in line with Warhammer’s dark universe (unlike 40k, Fantasy had genuine heroism but has room for anti heroes. Even if I see Cathay is too utopian compared to Empire and Bretonnia despite being a authoritarian realm with dragons who barely get along and Mass conscription.)

[@touayaaj84]

When are you going to do Dream if Red Chamber?