Wayland's First Protocol Without Pointless Drama

I've discussed so many Wayland protocols where it's been nothing but arguments but for once we have a protocol where the discussion started and then without any drama it just ended
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[@yanlucasdf]

Gnome sebastiam gets ignored, protocol merged smoothly I think I'm sein a correlation

[@cameronbosch1213]

Honestly, they should have their NACK power revoked or seriously slashed. What they are doing to the Wayalnd desktop is holding everybody else back.

[@yanlucasdf]

@@cameronbosch1213 2b fair gnome team thankfully didnt give him a nack power iirc

[@VBB9999]

Issue raised by Sebastian is now being discussed in KWin repo. Brodie showed it in the video.

[@meemon7580]

New Linux user here. Is this fairly common for Gnome devs to hold / set back production decisions?

[@shockwave3318]

​@meemon7580 Yes but it's not always useless or pointless. Gnome is big enough to be able to ignore and influence a lot of the decisions made in other places in the linux space and that causes a lot of friction. This is generally a consequence of being the biggest in a space although in this case its not malicious. Its just annoying and the points are made on the wayland project are usually made in earnest. Although they can at times be very pedantic.

[@ehotblch9602]

I love how sane discussion in Wayland project is somehow an oddity lol

[@Megalomaniakaal]

thanks, I hate it.

[@dsihacks]

Brodie on his way to immigrate to Wayland after spending a decade mastering the Waylish language and culture.

[@qlx-i]

Waylsh

[@steve43ful]

Damn didn’t know he was a Waylaboo

[@cameronbosch1213]

Waylish: The language of endless arguments!

[@LabiaLicker]

kek

[@TheBuzzSaw]

I plan to settle High Wayland.

[@kxuydhj]

wayland protocol approval speedrun any% world record. i want someone to beat this.

[@StarkRG]

Yes, it would be wonderful if all human interaction worked like this. Ego is unnecessary. "I think we should ." "Ok, but are you sure we shouldn't ?" "Honestly, I've been wanting just to ." "Here's why I think we should instead:" "Fair enough, let's ."

[@siliconhawk]

i think we should

[@552jacki3]

I love gnome but gawd dammit they make shit so infuriating sometimes

[@Wolf_Avatar]

Finally decided to look up what "byte-shedding" was, and discovered that I've been hearing it wrong, and it's actually "bikeshedding." So now I know two new things.

[@Megalomaniakaal]

cheers

[@smorrow]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/d4a8gaGuq5WsqdU Best definition and example of bikeshedding without leaving youtube

[@benign4823]

The drama is over at Nix currently.

[@weakspirit_]

tru, still have no idea why anything happened

[@MrNerdHair]

@@weakspirit_Everyone knows that content moderation at scale is hard, but for sufficient levels of incompetence content moderation at small scales can be hard too.

[@zzco]

Every protocol discussion should go that cordially! lmao

[@trustytrojan]

unfortunately, as seen in the video, gnome developers are to fault when things don't go smoothly 💀

[@eclipse2445]

but CSD????!(!?!,!,,!:$!2$.!2$/&/

[@__Brandon__]

Except now gnome is getting ignored and work is getting completed

[@framegrace1]

Just readed diagonally the xdg-icon discussion, and I think is perfectly fine. Is not as simple as it looks and has implications that need to be discussed so everyone is on the same page. It has som Gnome vs the rest drama, but is quickly addressed and seems more a personal opinion of a Gnome dev than the Gnome team themselves. (As a start, this particular protocol doesn't affect Gnome Shell at all. Gnome has no window icons. But it may have a use on the future, and needed just to clear some assumptions)

[@FrankHarwald]

1:00 this kind of bike shedding isn't just common around Wayland country but also in the entirety of XDG-land - even back when Wayland didn't exist & Xorg was the only way to properly run a modern desktop.

[@hanro50]

The gnome project doesn't want to work with others if I recall....don't see why others should work with them.

[@SnakePlissken25]

Where are the screensavers, Lebowski?

[@IAmPattycakes]

The days of CRTs are over

[@SnakePlissken25]

@@IAmPattycakes Nobody cares about CRTs, we want fun shapes on our monitors.

[@vocassen]

Can't believe they managed to hide it from the Gnome devs for a full month! Good on them

[@qlum]

I think this follows the rules of bikeshedding quite well: bikeshedding happens when something is easy to grasp and easy to form a opnion on, this seems more technical, and thus easily approved.

[@narwhal4304]

Finally a Wayland W in a sensible amount of time Now do it again >:3

[@thewhitefalcon8539]

Wayland has so many Ws, that's the app icon you get for everything because GNOME blocked app icons.

[@fakecubed]

Apparently all it takes is to try patches that are actually simple instead of only appearing to be simple.

[@jooch_exe]

Gnome has been bothering so many dev's they ended up in the ignore list. Good.

[@13thravenpurple94]

Excellent video 👍 Thank you 💜

[@Draggao]

Actual miracle, holy shit.

[@zxuiji]

For any wayland devs out there, a suggestion for the scope sorting. You could just have the lack of identifier mean "selected window/control" and anything prefixed with "n#-" mean "window/control #". **Edit:** For all windows & controls you can just use the prefix "all-", nothing controversial about that is there?

[@setoman1]

I run X11 btw 😊

[@matthewrease2376]

6:10 why did brother become green

[@gogudelagaze1585]

Since when are ellipses rare? :o

[@theobaumgartner5713]

This is a discussion & merge which spilled over from a parallel universe where Wayland development is not a discussion, haggling and bickering forum 🤪

[@hks-22]

Two minutes content stretched over 13 minutes.

[@ai-spacedestructor]

a protocol with no drama? are we sure this isnt a dream?

[@akza0729]

I was expecting Gnome would do a no-ack though

[@ps5hasnogames55]

GNOME devs don’t need to nack protocols, they just nitpick the ones they don’t like infinitely to stall any progress…

[@fakecubed]

You may hate GNOME, but most users like GNOME. Most distros like GNOME. GNOME is the big desktop on the block and should be afforded respect because software devs (are forced to) care about GNOME. Otherwise, GNOME will just ditch Wayland, go do their own thing, and then that other thing will be become dominant and everyone will end up having to switch to GNOME's thing or software won't run on their desktops. If GNOME has concerns, however nitpicky you may think they are, they need to be addressed. It might be frustrating, but it's not something you can just ignore. Other projects need to be realistic.

[@derdeolifant]

Projects that provide competition to Microsoft MUST have disruptive technically-savvy trolls funded to deliberately frustrate progress. Maybe the troll died and hasn't been replaced yet.

[@cursefroge]

ok lightweight x11 replacement chromeos network config manager

[@stefanalecu9532]

Did you train a Markov chain with Linux posts?

[@cursefroge]

@@stefanalecu9532 wayland + shill

[@comosaycomosah]

Agent wayland vs Agent x11

[@liquidsnake6879]

What do you expect? If you give developers reins of a project they will feature-creep themselves into oblivion lol it's happened many many times. Everyone wants to build the perfect thing that never comes. That's why we need PMs and POs in corporate world, to keep us in check and make us hurry up and cut the fluff when needed. I know in my team if we didn't have them we'd spend years fussing about whether or not we should have a particular comment above a function or not 😂 But yeah now i can see why Wayland is taking so long, they brought microservices all the way down to the human level and are struggling with communication issues 😂 bro the more i learn the more i appreciate the wisdom of Lennart Poettering. This kind of decentralization is the absolute devil and has been the downfall of so many projects already that i'm surprised people keep insisting on trying to make everything ultra distributed and decoupled

[@sus4793]

tbf, Wayland is the opposite of distributed.

[@liquidsnake6879]

​@@sus4793 Yeah, but the development of it isn't that's what i was referring to. In terms of code i don't doubt it's superior to X. The big thing i think we'd lose with Wayland is the ability to render the display from a docker container on the host machine, i've used that a few times and it's an awesome little feature that's only really doable on X machines because of the whole networking protocol they got going on

[@PaulaXism]

Does Wayland even work yet? .. Not even thinking about switching from X11 until I know it works.. because I ditched Debian because of some Wayland garbage which broke literally everything over a decade ago...

[@Draggao]

It doesn't. It's expected to be fully functional in the middle of 2025 or so. No need to be in a hurry imo, let's wait till things get done.

[@infernocop31]

@@Draggao yeah but for some reason gnome wanted to remove the x11 session lmao.

[@Draggao]

@@infernocop31 Gnome and it's devs are always in a hurry for some reason lol. Can't understand why. Even KDE who is quite fast with their stuff let the xorg session be. I'm still using it as of now since Wayland is buggy for me in some areas and needs ironing still.

[@infernocop31]

​@@Draggao the funniest thing Is that they dropped the decision for now because wayland doesnt have support for accessibilty global shortcuts. And btw color management Is Also missing, which Is terrible but gnome devs dont care about that 😂😂😂😂

[@Draggao]

@@infernocop31 All I can say is "Wayland moment." At this point it's pretty clear the way they do things is at the cost of development time, now you wonder why the project with the lack of standardized tools is taking so long to be adopted. I don't like the systemd suite but at least they managed to set standards rather quickly. Wayland still doesn't has basic functionalities such as global shortcuts due to a braindead design choice. Also man, the thing over color management is terrible. I may be a minority (doubt it) or this may be niche but it's a thing I really need to make my jump over.

[@potatoes5829]

yey, there is hope!

[@entelin]

No drama? What fun is that? Why do you think I come here? XD

[@nescius2]

12:37 BDFL... cool, thanks ... another abbrv makes everything better.. saving nothing.

[@vanodon2257]

Merge Request creator be like "Trinity is my name"

[@fishsayhelo9872]

swagtacular, broslert 👍

[@mckendrick7672]

My favourite part of this whole thing is Sebastian from GNOME being ignored 😂 needs to happen more often

[@evantaur]

GNOME is like that one coworker (FU Tom) who is against anything new and will throw a fit if his old shit gets replaced.

[@thewhitefalcon8539]

​@@evantaur GNOME are the main driving force behind Wayland and they want it to be as annoying as possible

[@Berkshire-Hathaway]

Another video from our favorite wayland shill

[@GoatzombieBubba]

X-11 is dead.

[@kreuner11]

Wayland is xool

[@hiru92]

😂

[@CMDRSweeper]

Almost correct! Brodie is actually a double shill agent! The 1st April video proved him as a X11 and Wayland shill :D You can't trust him.

[@setoman1]

Wayland is a memory hog and likes to crash when you have too many windows open.

[@genstian]

Its usually gnome being difficult.

[@knghtbrd]

Even when it goes smoothly, Gnome is the holdout. They always are, "not invented here" once again.

[@mckendrick7672]

And thankfully the only concern raised by a GNOME person was just entirely ignored 😂

[@genstian]

@@mckendrick7672 I think if it becomes a new protocol discussion policy to just ignore GNOME people, all future mergers will be this fast

[@SIackware]

Very informative as always, Mr. Wayland

[@feschber]

The video came online a minute before you commented

[@pingusdingus99]

​@@feschberwatched it at x10 ofc

[@marsovac]

I think that Linux need more people like Torvalds in many other open source projects, to tell to some other people to fuck off when they start with useless requests and opinions, instead of trying to make everybody happy.

[@jamnor]

Except Wayland is very much a project that will fall apart if everyone isn't happy. If KDE, GNOME, and Smithay don't agree that a protocol is good and do an implementation for it, there's no point in protocol discussion. They might as well do their own thing. The poor developer writing software for Linux now has to support three different ways of doing something in three different compositors, or they need to pick one and tell users to use that (historically this would be GNOME, but from what I've seen, KDE has implemented more protocols atm, so it might make more sense).

[@LtdJorge]

@@jamnor wlroots too

[@thewhitefalcon8539]

GNOME is the BDFL for Wayland except they're not B

[@Artoooooor]

I generally think that every project should have a leader, that has the final word.

[@softwarelivre2389]

Will GNOME implement it tho?

[@vendetta.02]

lets hope so

[@donkey7921]

yeah, it's quite disappointing for them to not even appear on a lot of XDG standards discussions.

[@knghtbrd]

Of course not. 🤣

[@luispaulino4380]

People should stop caring about what GNOME wants. They don't even care themselves.

[@softwarelivre2389]

@@luispaulino4380 I care about what GNOME does because: 1. I use GNOME myself; 2. Part of the users of my software use GNOME. So it is important to know what they're doing because of that.

[@idk-sy3iu]

The year of the Wayland desktop

[@aaardvaaark]

So are people still angry at canonical for wanting to go their own way and write MIR instead of contributing to Wayland? Watching this video it surprises me that anyone can be bothered with these decades-long conference calls.

[@thewhitefalcon8539]

Wayland wasn't Wayland at that time and canonical were making Mir as bad as Red Hat (who owns GNOME) makes Wayland

[@reality_hurtz]

The delays really suck, but ultimately Wayland is replacing something that has held back linux so much, perhaps the caution is wanting to avoid that multi decade issue from happening all over again, and if that is what it does, ill reluctantly put up with the wait.

[@aeghohloechu5022]

your wish is granted now the protocol discussions take multiple decades instead

[@reality_hurtz]

@@aeghohloechu5022 lol

[@someguy9175]

maybe, if we keep memeing at the wayland devs, tell start pushing protocols without a metric ton of bikeshedding out of spite!

[@IOSALive]

Brodie Robertson, Your videos always make me happy, so I subscribed!

[@cameronbosch1213]

Wow, if only _ALL_ Wayland protocols went like this! 🙄

[@AndersHass]

Time to just make very simple merge requests in order to go more smoothly, lol.

[@__Brandon__]

Or just ignore gnome

[@5Hydroxytryptophan]

​@@__Brandon__ This.

[@DudeSoWin]

Oh look stalling to insert another exploitable image format... Hello Apple.

[@kxuydhj]

wayland protocol approval speedrun any% world record. i want someone to beat this.

[@AnubisWithCoffee]

Id love to see as well as the minimum discussion time, a maximum discussion time or some sorta arbitration to make the call when discussions are just going in circles so things can actually move forward

[@fakecubed]

A maximum discussion time would just force everything through, even things that should definitely not be forced through, just because one person somewhere wants it done.

[@greypsyche5255]

Classic gnome lol

[@fakecubed]

They had a valid concern that had to be addressed later when they realized he was smarter than they were.

[@n.m4497]

Doew anyone know when HDR and color management protocol will be finished?

[@n.m4497]

@@amoeba8888 ok, when

[@Souls4Roca]

the day gnome will be axed

[@tablettablete186]

I thought it was finished a month ago, since it was going to be implemented by Gnome and KDE. So I am kinda of confused by OP's question

[@zamundaaa776]

Before the end of the year, that's for sure. On the compositor side both Weston and KWin already implement it, and a Mesa implementation is mostly there too, we 'just' need some apps to implement it too and then it can be merged.

[@n.m4497]

@@zamundaaa776 good to hear. Thanks and amazing work from all the devs Xaver.

[@mskiptr]

Welp, to me the concerns that the Gnome dev had sound decently valid tho (I'm not saying that all this should have been blocked, but that we need to figure out how to go forward despite such concerns and instead be able to fix them retroactively)

[@BrodieRobertson]

Maybe so but it's fairly common for him specifically to show up last minute and bring up concerns that nobody else cares about I wouldn't be surprised if some of the devs are just tired of it

[@ps5hasnogames55]

Sebastian is constantly trying to block progress on every single protocol he personally doesn't want upstream in Wayland purely because they won't benefit GNOME. Even if the concern looked valid this time, it's a long pattern in his behaviour, so it's no surprise people are ignoring him now because people actually want things to *get done*.

[@zamundaaa776]

I might not have answered his comment, but the concern was adressed before merging

[@BrodieRobertson]

@@zamundaaa776 it's just funny to for once see a disagreement that doesn't devolve into chaos and just gets quietly dealt with

[@Oktokolo]

This protocol looks to me as if it can't be used when even just part of the surface needs to be opaque. Games are normally fully opaque and everything else normally has window decorations that are opaque. So what's the actual use case?

[@Aeroxima]

Open source is terrifying. Working on indie games, I just.. write some notes and designs and ideas, specify some, and implement. I can't imagine having to have slow, spaced apart discussions over every tiny little detail. Maybe to a degree it's just different, and needs that, but... wow. No wonder development is so much slower.

[@TheAtariSan]

Wow, someone slap me, i am unsure if i am still asleep or inbetween, ah wait, the coffee in my blood's still active... I am not daydreaming, am i ? It's finally happening ? An universal wayland protocole that do everything. Well well well... when Veshell's done, i will be totally moving out of awesome.

[@DavidJonSpem]

Wayland shilling but it needs to be done

[@ahettinger525]

Wait, Wayland NOT being completely disfunctional? Will the dogs and cats start living together now?

[@sbme1147]

Good video. Hats off to the Wayland team for just getting it done.

[@abdul4515]

"First merger in the west" Ain't that the truth lmaooo.

[@reiniermoreno1653]

Ah yes, tech gossip

[@lazarpro3030]

April fools ????

[@JMRVRGS]

5:44 how do I enable that feature in Linux? (middle mouse button drag scroll)

[@ytrism]

Go to Firefox settings, in the "General" tab scroll all the way down to the "Browsing" section and enable "Use autoscrolling". I have no idea why this is disabled by default. Mozilla being Mozilla again I guess.

[@JMRVRGS]

@@ytrismholyyy thank you! I thought that it was a windows only feature. I guess that the recent updates disabled it by default, because I've been using it since I switched to firefox and then few updates came I can't use it (I thought my mouse is broken too)

[@charautreal]

​@@ytrismlet's see how chromium is doing... oh wait

[@linuxguy1199]

I don't mind Wayland being slow and really difficult to implement things, keeps the protocol from becoming yet another bloated, slow, and not thought out windowing system.

[@ps5hasnogames55]

Wayland's core protocol is done and dusted, these are extensions which *no one* has to implement if they don't want to. Sebastian is just trying to go on a power trip and block any protocol he can't see benefiting GNOME from being in upstream wayland-protocols, because he knows that'll eventually force GNOME to support them or else things will be broken only on GNOME and not KDE or wlroots.

[@fakecubed]

@@ps5hasnogames55 Sounds like he has valid concerns then.

[@charautreal]

​@@ps5hasnogames55if no one has to implement them then what's the point of xdg and wp spaces vs the ext namespace?

[@chloe-sunshine7]

What a great overview of this portion of the development process.

[@tranthien3932]

The duality of Wayland merges

[@bleack8701]

2:24 that's the official reason. Look at the icons and you'll see that people don't need a month to see it and don't take their time to properly think about things before voicing their opinion

[@tranthien3932]

A rare short Wayland lore, unexpected but welcome.

[@Bigoukun]

Yes, it IS a great wayland discution (in the way it did go smouthly) and I wish all Wayland discutions were like this one.

[@platin2148]

Can we also add one that makes it possible to conway the version of the app?

[@Megalomaniakaal]

🥳🎉🥳🎉🥳🎉

[@realname5630]

Hey Brodie 😎

[@Florennum_]

great content, wayland shill

[@joelazaro461]

We may be on track for the year of the Linux desktop happening before we land astronauts on Mars.

[@fakecubed]

The year of the Linux desktop is individual to every Linux user. For me it was 2016.

[@useless2764]

Give it a week and we should be back to the regularly scheduled pointless drama right

[@ps5hasnogames55]

If they continue to ignore Sebastian then drama won’t happen. Funny how that works!

[@fakecubed]

@@ps5hasnogames55 Except they didn't ignore him. His concern was valid and had to be addressed. They just addressed it without commenting.

[@Beryesa.]

The year of Linux on the desktop has now become the month of Wayland mergers (⁠~⁠‾⁠▿⁠‾⁠)⁠~

[@dougthespade3273]

tf i like the drama though

[@mjdxp5688]

Wayland just seems way too complex at this point. Eventually it's gonna get as bad as X11, and another protocol is gonna be developed and we'll have to do this again.

[@dexterman6361]

Feels like at this point the wayland nitpicking is holding back the desktop. Jeez.

[@Koffiato]

You could add a "... yet" to the end of the video to cover up and coming drama about this one.

[@stefanalecu9532]

Some people in this comment section are amazing, the Markov chain seems to be working

[@sativagirl1885]

Brodie's purpose in this life is to accept the opportunity to virtualize his supercomputer and run containers filled with EVERY branch of Wayland, with his optimized kernel.

[@GoatzombieBubba]

X11 shill bots in the comment section saying wayland shill.

[@noot1337]

he is and he says it himself

[@No-mq5lw]

This comment reminds me of my high school textbook saying the military-industrial complex was a conspiracy, despite being directly referenced by Dwight D. Eisenhower, which wouldn't make it a conspiracy

[@fakecubed]

@@No-mq5lw Conspiracy theories are themselves a conspiracy. The CIA created that term to discredit critics of actual conspiracies.

[@justinsearle4461]

Worse than systemd?

[@KipIngram]

What I dislike about Wayland is that there are things it doesn't do. Calls in SDL2, for example, that just WON'T WORK, and when I pried into it I was told that it was left out DELIBERATELY because it didn't comply with Wayland's security model. Like resizing my window with an SDL2 call. And I had to research to find that out - there was no error message, no nothing. It just silently didn't work. My basic attitude is that this is my PERSONAL computer, and I don't need any protection from other users. I just want to be able to do anything I want to do. What I really wish I had was a Linux power OS that runs perpetually in Ring0, so there's no security "overhead" at all. And if I do something dumb and stub my toe, well, that's my fault. I don't care to be "protected from myself."

[@fakecubed]

"Other users" include malicious software running on your machine without your knowledge.

[@web3wizard381]

Time to boycott GNOME.

[@PaulaXism]

I switched to XFCE within about an hour of trying to use the "new" Gnome 3 that came with debian back in the day.. Never looked back.

[@web3wizard381]

@@PaulaXism quite the sane judgement from an anime girl

[@fakecubed]

Good luck with that. The only people who don't like GNOME are a minority of perpetually online Linux community members. Actual Linux users love GNOME which is why most distros use it by default.

[@affechristoph]

Reading this merge request was like using a punctual train in Germany.

[@piotrkudzin6466]

I was directed here by LIGO and VIRGO detectors, they recently have been calibrated to detect - no drama mergers!

[@cavvieira]

Brodie, got the love that all that is holy, please don’t present black text on white background. DarkReader plug-in will allow you to set milder colors even for light mode. Sincerely, my retinas.

[@X_Otman]

X11 all the way.

[@unpotatoedsalmon]

Day one os saying systemd is the devil

[@FengLengshun]

Honestly, kinda makes following xdg-toplevel-icons more frustrating, imagining what could have been, if Wayland development was more consistently sane...

[@fakecubed]

That is a deceptively simple patch that is absolutely deserving of the long and contentious process of trying to get it implemented.