We Can Make A Better Guard

[@shinespider]

This was a fun watch. I'd like to see something similar for the Guard's traditional opposite: the Bandit. Most RPGs have bandits that seem to spring forth from the ground, with no sense of history of purpose. Just random guys in the woods that are permissible to kill. I think it's useful for Game Masters to consider where their bandits came from, what their goal is, and what the consequences of fighting them might be. Imagine killing a bunch of robbers attacking a merchant caravan you're guarding, marching proudly into to town to announce your good deed, only to be greeted with grave stares as you realize that the guy you killed was a widely-admired folk hero.

[@DesksAndDorks]

Oooooh that's a really fun idea and there some great historical parallels!

[@kurtacus3581]

Yeah, its interesting bandits get ignored considering pirates are so beloved and expanded upon. But bandits are basically just land pirates so I've always found it odd they dont get the same love

[@TheAchilles26]

​@@kurtacus3581 they get plenty of love.....when they wear green tunics and tights while using longbows. Robin Hood and his "Merry Men" split the difference between bandits and nationalist insurgents.

[@DesksAndDorks]

The romance of pirates is doing a lot kf heavy lifting

[@TheAchilles26]

@DesksAndDorks privateering and the fact that actual navies are also used for commerce raiding is also probably playing a role.

[@chrisbates8906]

The best comedic item for a town guard is in one of the Warhammer world novels - Beasts in Velvet by Jack Yeovil (Kim Newman) where "Filthy Harald" Kliendeist has the Magnin throwing knife.. the heaviest throwing knife on the market..

[@DesksAndDorks]

I imagine it's so heavy it doesn't work well

[@tauoniclightning6697]

It took me a minute, but I got it. Well done, Jack Yeovil, well done.

[@DesksAndDorks]

Gosh darnit I just got it

[@benjaminstiles]

Is this like a dirty Dan joke or something? I don’t think I have the reference knowledge

[@DesksAndDorks]

Dirty Harry. Heavy knife Heavy magnum. Six throws six bullets. Etc.

[@nedreow3722]

One note about the Type 1 guards: Their quality depends on the community that is supporting them. For small town that often means their traing is non-existant and their equipment poor, but for large, wealthy, late-medieval towns this can mean guilds of wel-drilled and excellently equipped infantry. The wealthy lowlands cities fielded militias that were some of the best of their time, and lead by the wealthy and prominent members of the community. And because these militias remain a part of the community they serve (and are lead by the leaders of that community), they are no threat to that community.

[@akedus44]

Don't forget about the variety of it too. Some town guards were former marauding armies looking to loot and plunder a wealthy trading town only to get hired as mercenaries instead. Others are "garrisons" sent by the King to "reinforce" a particularly rebellious town and work more as an occupation force.

[@TalesFromElsewhereGames]

A vital part of making guards feel real, that I've found, is to really reinforce that these are people. People who want to live. Most guards aren't fanatics, willing to lay down their life to save whatever they're guarding. They'll fight, and fight well, but I've seen the lone remaining guard, hopelessly outnumbered, standing among the bodies of their dead brethren, still fighting the group of adventurers who effortlessly cut them all down. It immediately breaks me out of the world when that happens in a game 🤠

[@DesksAndDorks]

Those kinds of last stands have happened it's usually either the most elite guards or people who have no other option. So tldr you're definitely correct and I can get why it would break the immersion!

[@TalesFromElsewhereGames]

@@DesksAndDorks Absolutely, those tier 3 guards (from your vid) would be much more likely to put it all on the line in a last attempt at victory! Some poor sod who was conscripted into the local militia? Mmmm not so much haha

[@DesksAndDorks]

@TalesFromElsewhereGames reminds me of Swiss mercenaries during the French revolution. They held the palace without ammo and just mopped the floor with the mobs until they were overwhelmed.

[@n0etic_f0x]

@@TalesFromElsewhereGames This is not historically accurate but in my games most guards are in a guild, they guard things because they have direct interest to do so. They access the most rare of items that are often hundreds of tons of weight so you can’t move them they exist where they do. We have to limit who can use them because they are in constant use, it’s not like we are limiting the use for no reason they are working at capacity at all times. Sure these guys drink coffee that means you never need to sleep but they would make more if they could but they can’t. The rare plants being used would die if we used more for example of why people must guard a garden for instance.

[@PeachDragon_]

Maybe he's just a badass

[@AyEhm-ii2dp]

I wish you'd mentioned the Parisian City Watch, which was an incredibly effective organization for its time. It even had proto-detectives known as investigators and overall operated like a primitive modern police force.

[@DesksAndDorks]

I am going to be honest I did not k ow that was a thing..I will do some reaearch!

[@AyEhm-ii2dp]

@DesksAndDorks The book "Blood Royal" by Eric Jaeger describes their procedures and actions during the investigation into the murder of Prince-Regent Louis de Valois, duke of Orleans, in the 14th Century. While the book primarily focuses on the politics leading up to and resulting from the murder, it does a great job covering the investigation itself.

[@Franiac32]

Came for the advice on guards. Stayed for the *spot on* Kermit impression.

[@DesksAndDorks]

Cant say Kermit will make an appearance every time but he may Come out.

[@elijahsnow3119]

One thing I think is worth mentioning is the idea that guards are also a key element of the duties of Baliffs and Tax Collectors. Tax farming is something that has never really gone away. And it’s important to remember that margin is what could very well have paid for town guards. Are they jumped up locals? Or are they an actual occupation force for a neighboring noble? Or are they a religious or alternate state entity? (Like the secret police of ancient china or even late medieval and early renaissance Russia). Also things like… what is this country’s judicial system like? Is it Norscan rule through strength? Impenetrable legalese? Is it adversarial? Is it Guilty till proven innocent? These things give a very distinct flavor and purpose for town community and guards.

[@DesksAndDorks]

Excellent point and one that can make your guards more worth engaging with

[@absolstoryoffiction6615]

True... Personally, "A great King can only lead a great kingdom for as long as they are King.", is my way of leading kingdoms. As I know the nature of Mankind all too well. That said... I prefer equipping everyone with the best weapons and armor we can create in mass. As well education and evidence/fact based laws & judicial system. While cultivating genuine love and peace. Something Mankind has forgotten in this day in age. My town guards are well equipped on par with my soldiers. "To leave no one behind and to protect others." For this is of my many decrees.

[@DesksAndDorks]

There are some town guards like that historically although you usually see them in egalitarian communities

[@KaiHung-wv3ul]

You know what they say: "there are only two things inevitable in this world: death and taxes."

[@conradrogers317]

As a long time GM, guards are great low-level antagonists, usually on the RP side to just give the party a hard time (well-armed outsiders ARE suspicious) but your point about "better armed guards become more hostile to the general populace" was one I hadn't fully thought out (since guards only appear when PCs are trying to do something). The idea of opposing nobles having forces just roaming to shake down the other's peasants isn't one that had occurred to me either. Thanks for an insightful and historically-based video!

[@DesksAndDorks]

It's a big deal historically the infighting is a lot.

[@DesksAndDorks]

Also, thanks for the comment, and I'm glad you enjoyed the video!

[@SusCalvin]

In the early modern period, the central governments start to distrust roaming mercenary bands and private armies. There are steps to create stronger national forces.

[@FraterMerovius]

One aspect of security forces in a fantasy, particularly a high fantasy, setting that gets overlooked is the inclusion of magical practitioners in such a force. If there are people who can fire off energy bolts from their hands, read or control minds, or any number of other supernatural and dangerous feats, not having such personnel in one's retinue might prove to be a fatal mistake. Of course, this would depend on how common such people are in the world, and would be less important in low fantasy settings.

[@DesksAndDorks]

Very true. Usually I skew low fantasy. Planescape torment however, handles this quite well.

[@SusCalvin]

In Shadowrun, there won't be a wizard in every cop car or in every rent-a-cop security booth. But there will be a couple on the SWAT team or the company rapid reaction force at HQ. And those dudes might throw an amulet or a servant spirit to other parts. Part of the game was to learn how different security forces operated. Aztlan had a lot of adepts, but spread them around. Saeder-Krupp had fewer schamans/wizards but concentrated them in task forces. You did the same with other security aspects like how much they trusted cyberanimals/paranimals, their network security routines, their site security etc.

[@DesksAndDorks]

Shadowrun does also handle this well!

[@SusCalvin]

@@DesksAndDorks Shadowrun is defined by heavy balkanization. The players can also learn to exploit the patchwork boundaries. It will take a few hours for even neutral companies to sort out jurisdiction. It does not help much directly with low-tech medieval towns. In Esoteric Enterprises I need to pit a fully operational state against OSR/WoD dungeoneering bums. Like a whole, modern, paranoid security state. I think the new Vampire edition does the same, you now face a whole new kind of state paranoia.

[@LawsonPhoenix89]

Those tier 2 Guards make for interesting conflict building within a town/city for a campaign. PCs are gonna haaate those guys.

[@DesksAndDorks]

Oh yeah they are nasty buggers and historically that kind of seems like what guards basically did.

[@Seriously_Unserious]

I actually love historical discussions like these, as I'm a fantasy writer working on my debut novel and I'm always looking for new ideas on how to better portray my settings and character. Plus I run a community on Discord that's full of game devs, writers, animators and more, and am always looking for videos and content creators the whole community can rely on for better storytelling in all the forms of media we use. I'd be happy to connect with the Desks and Dorks team to see if there's any areas you need help with, in creating and promoting your game.

[@aweshetdima2157]

I kinda want you to do different types of bandits now. After playing Kingdom Come Deliverance, I've realized just how samey bandits are portrayed in DnD and general media. So far, i can only come up with four types from the game: Highwaymen: Not really well armed nor armored bandits, but they have weapons and they're here for your money. They're not really well trained either, opting to rob from those who can't protect themselves or with numbers. Usually, if you kill/incapacitate a few, they'll probably run away. Cutthroats: Equipped with mismatched stolen weapons and armor, these guys are essentially the bandit stereotypes. These guys are a step above the average highwayman. They have some experience with robbing and fighting, being made up of hardened criminals and deserters. However, they usually do brigandry for themselves and may instead choose to run in the face of a real fight. Raiders: Bandits with gumption. Usually roving bands of experienced sellswords/soldiers who've fallen to banditry after a prolonged era of peace has left them without a job. Well armed, versed in tactics, and liable to even raid villages with enough numbers. Robber Barons: Nobles who, for their own reasons, have resorted to banditry with their cadre of personal men-at-arms. Possibly the most dangerous type of bandits, Noble Barons have access to many loyal/paid trained men armed with high-quality weapons and armor. Whatever the reason for their fall of status or blood feud, it's best not to get involved.

[@DesksAndDorks]

My good friend you are in luck. We just did that! kzbin.info/www/bejne/a4HdoaJ8itajgsUsi=Z41-qk60-cAUn-kH

[@FraterMerovius]

Historically speaking:regardless of culture, language, religion, or skin color, the more powerful you make a "town guard" the more likely they are to turn against the populace they protect." This is a lesson we in the modern west seem to have forgotten. And it applies not only to police forces, but to bureaucracies.

[@DesksAndDorks]

To this point, beuracracy seems to be far less of threat historically, but yeah, it feels like this gets forgotten.

[@FraterMerovius]

@@DesksAndDorks The bureaucratic threat is probably more culture specific. Chinese palace eunuchs spring to mind, because there was a widespread, established bureaucracy embedded in the Confucian world view. It has raised its ugly head in modern times, with unelected government agencies assuming more and more authority over people's lives.

[@SusCalvin]

The city militia or fire watch was sometimes a rotating schedule of townies. In really small towns, I might populate the place with one constable and a couple sergeants. The rest of the chumps on the wall or at the gate are townies on militia duty. In Mutant, the regular paramilitary presence of a town could be a small troop of less than a dozen gendarmes.

[@baswar]

The first and second tiers make wonder about the fun story tension that could produce. A knight who owns say two villages will have his own small band of semi-professional soldiers but those villages may also have their own self defence militia. Adventurers could wonder into a situation where two villages have a dispute and their militias are facing off while their lord is not there or doesn't have the men to prevent it. Or the lord is being forced to negotiate over an issue. Such as he needs to levy men for the king's war but the militias won't leave unless he promises to arm the whole militia properly or simply say no because its a breach of contract (medieval europe was basically government by contract lol), as the Lord might have a charter were the village maintains a militia of x number and the people in it are except from being levied etc. then the adventurers are given the option to do something about it

[@DesksAndDorks]

Very observant my friend! I like to build these videos with the intent to cause tension amongst the different types of characters someone might encounter!

[@Tachi2407]

Some really nice ideas there. I think usually guards in fantasy suffer from people just thinking of them as modern cops except with spears instead of guns, while as this video lays out, their organization, purpose and function were different and quite more interesting in terms of potential plot hooks and dynamics they'd have with players and other NPC groups.

[@DesksAndDorks]

They would certainly! I really like them for that reason

[@xagrott]

9:08 counterpoint: Lord wants someone to keep working his land

[@DesksAndDorks]

While this is good point in the eyes of many lords it was simply cheaper to make extra peasants.

[@xagrott]

​@@DesksAndDorks yes and no; "many lords" were actually one town/village holders who lose of even one peasant could be devastating + additional things: peasantry who served in milita were direct feudal vassals of lords (either as heridetry owners of land or being on leasend land from lord to oversee) or artisans in towns with their own businesses that any services were protected by town-liege contracts, milita system was introduced to establish policing force and basics of garnisson in regional towns, and when milita served as part of medieval army it was recognized as paying tithe to lord, additionaly recognizing their lack of talent and equipment (mostly bc giving them too costly eq ment they probably sold it off or didn't properly maitain it bc they didn't have time for it) most of time they served as skrimishers at beggining of battles or "ditch diggers" in sieges (if they were serve as line units they were probably on special contracts most likely making them also into Serjeants or Yeomens), but as far from any close combat as possible for medieval times + if service in army was preloning beyond that 10% of working days in a year then lord was obligated to compaste milita

[@Tristyn_Waterman]

That bit about the arrow to the knee is really interesting! I wonder why I haven't heard that before given how much skyrim has been in the public conscious

[@DesksAndDorks]

I think people just took it at face value or just were like haha funny meme. Which in fairness, it is funny. I'll be honest I almost missed it during my reading too it is a kind of blink and you'll miss it moment.

[@HelotOnWheels]

The trope is actually a lot older than Skyrim. The first place I saw it was in a 1984 Ed Greenwood article about a monster. It was narrated by a guy who was “a fierce and bold sword-swinger, afore that beholder took off my arm.”

[@DesksAndDorks]

@HelotOnWheels that is interesting I'll look into it!

[@Philojira]

What i like most about your deep dives is the degree of insight they reflect, unpacking archetypes in ways that allow even those of us building non-medieval era ttrps to get the gist of the kind of dynamics that have always lain at the heart of human societal interactions as can be mechanized in our roleplaying.. Bravo!

[@DesksAndDorks]

Thank you for the genuinely touching compliment. I try hard to make it digestible so it is much appreciated.

[@Philojira]

@DesksAndDorks 🙏

[@maxgonzalez2854]

This is a fun history/fantasy we’ll actually format. Also, I think police and guards are orgs that you can point to as an example of systemic (insert bad behavior). I think since they tend to protect their own and rug sweep the bad shit they do, it forms an us vs them culture that gets taught to newbies and is reinforced anytime something happens to one of their members.

[@DeltaCain13]

It's an interesting topic that you've chosen and basically above the tier 1 (levy) level, all of the guards from that point forward are basically mercenaries.

[@DesksAndDorks]

A great thing to point out and spot on. Mercenaries were hugely important prior to standing armies

[@maeror1022]

This video is amazing, and has given me so many new ideas, and taught me things I hadn't even considered.

[@DesksAndDorks]

Much appreciated and hopefully you get to use some of the ideas

[@Toddalotapodamus]

At 20:48 Historians will know this and remain statists. Great video though, thank you for making it.

[@DesksAndDorks]

I don't know if there's a correlation between a state having control and the abuses of protective systems. If anything I found the more robust the administrative systems and checks the less likely this was to be the case. It's also important to note that surplus weapons and gear seem to have a direct correlation as well. Glad you enjoyed the video!

[@furiousTjr]

It is wild how history repeats.

[@DesksAndDorks]

Very much so.

[@meraduddcethin2812]

Another great video about a subject that is often overlooked and 'modernized'. I like your exploration of the motivations of guards, from 'keeping the peace' to 'protecting a person' and how that would influence the approach to the position. I'm curious as to how you would suggest implementing this in different ways to keep the murder-hobo.....er, the adventuring party on the right side or the law.

[@DesksAndDorks]

Oh boy, this is a subject that probably needs its own video, but I'll summarize it in 3 steps. 1. Prevention. The more players are invested in a world, the less murder hobo they get. I will say I encounter this problem more with dnd than any other system. 2. Increased danger. As part of the safety tools lines and veils conversation i have at the beginning of my games my players are informed that the world is dangerous, they are not immortal, and npcs will react like real people in danger and not cardboard cutouts. Sometimes, people take the warning that sometimes a character needs to get removed first. Usually, those two things are helpful, but like I said, it needs its own video

[@meraduddcethin2812]

@@DesksAndDorks Fair enough, though you're missing a step 3. :)

[@DesksAndDorks]

The third step is.....I'm a dingus.

[@meraduddcethin2812]

@@DesksAndDorks mebbie, but you're a likable dingus. :)

[@DesksAndDorks]

@meraduddcethin2812 I shall take it!

[@sirguy6678]

Excellent video! Father “alright- YOU stay here and see that HE Doesn’t leave.” Guard “who? The Prince? I thought you meant him. Thought it was a bit daft me guarding him when he’s a guard. “ (Holy Grail)

[@DesksAndDorks]

Appreciate it and the grail reference.

[@VincentVanZigel]

Wonderful video! Your points do sound very valid, and bring context to this profession that I've never thought of. This will be mighty useful, as I'm currently trying to make my games low-fantasy and more natural. Thank you! Still, just going to drop my 2 cents, I believe that if we have a setting where monsters exist, there might be another tier of guardsmen. Pitchforks are mostly good against your fellow man, but other creatures might require more sophisticated tools and equipment. And so I personally think this isn't really far-fetched to assume that a village might organize a small unit, perhaps hire a veteran or a retired adventurer from somewhere, to help train their own band of defenders. These people might not even get paid with coin, but rather they're fed for free, they get some services free, in exchange for them to protect the community during the day and night shifts. So something between your tiers 1 and 2. Of course, those would still be people, they would probably be passive in how they perform their duties, but at the same time they would be locals and very much interested in the well-being of the community. The only difference is that their trade is protection. Of course, this probably would not be everywhere, as for a small village a person that isn't a farmhand means less people working the fields, but I still think this is somewhat realistic and would offer somewhat better means of protection that your normal tier 1.

[@ignaciozegers5267]

The callout surprised me hahaha, I appreciate it, glad to be of any help! As far as the video, I'll basically say the same thing as the low fantasy one, I think this is a goated formula, with plenty of ways to keep it fresh too, keep digging at it, keep cooking! That's funny to get a good answer on the arrow to the knee thing finally, I remember reading a theory that it was a marriage thing (knee to arrow -> proposing) lol

[@DesksAndDorks]

I am glad you got the exact answer you wanted i know so many folks talk about the arrow to the knee! But yeah, man, I really appreciate you pushing the channel and helping us grow. It's been fun!

[@ramonmoreno090593]

About the arrow, it would be like the equivalent to a medieval slang?

[@DesksAndDorks]

Correct. It would be a colloquial expression.

[@zeblissoof2924]

Really nice content to give background to motivations and people!

[@SamGlaze]

Medieval 2 Total War mentioned, subscription gained

[@DesksAndDorks]

A simple but respectable transaction.

[@alphaknight4067]

Just came across your channela nd i thinks its nice. Your video was a fun watch. You should make a video about nobles/gentrys and how they affect the people who leave on there land and the adventurers who come across there land. Also a video about city/town councils and guilds and mayor's and how they run the towns and cities and how they affect the world

[@DesksAndDorks]

We are doing a while video on bandits that comes out tomorrow so that should be fun! Polls happen each week too to determine the next topic!

[@omega7700]

I enjoyed finding this suddenly in my recommended, and while I do appreciate your outlook, I think your conclusion on guards turning against their community is wrong, while today we might see that, the problem with medieval guards is that they’re, well, guarding something. They aren’t turning against their community, they’re guarding a different community, it’s just that you aren’t apart of it. Even abusive and criminal guards do it because they’re allowed, encouraged, or told to by a different community than the peasant, think of the tax collector and his men, hated throughout history for extorting people. It’s a common story because we think of our communities far more widely today than any in history. Otherwise, good stuff

[@omega7700]

Also to add, through most of history, most everything had to be done either in person or via messenger, as with taxes, someone had to be sent to collect them, so the idea of guards going out to collect taxes and then deciding to collect a paycheck on top of that, and perhaps a little extra for their boss, is necessary to understand why these “bad guy” guards are in these stories. Not even taking into account that rule of law often wasn’t very fair, and that whoever had the force of arms decided the law means that what looks like oppression of rights, and in some cases is, the systems that we take for granted today, to make the comparison to the police force in the United States, only existed because of these powerful or rich people decided to enforce some level of what they considered order.

[@DesksAndDorks]

Oh man, I wish that was true. We have incidents of guard units in byzantium and Rome torching businesses at the behest of rivals and savaging folks who tried to put the fires out. Personal bodyguards started small-scale wars in Milan, Florence, and parts of Venice. If we involve mercenary units like the Landsknechts when they were on guard duty, those incidents go way up. Those are the tip of the iceburg. It really seems like it's pretty endemic.

[@omega7700]

@@DesksAndDorks sorry if I misunderstand, but isn’t that the exact kind of “unfair” application of the law of someone outside of their community that is powerful to guard the community they’re hired to protect I was trying to mention?

[@Tysto]

I thought every able-bodied man in a town trained regularly (maybe just once a month) on footman's tactics so they could help serve on the town watch now and then, defend the town when necessary, and be useful if called up for a war. And for that reason, nearly all of them had pretty decent armor, like mail hauberk, helmet, and shield. At least that was the implication I drew from my research.

[@DesksAndDorks]

In some towns and periods, that is true, but as far as I can tell, there was no uniform requirement for training and arms. The exception to this was during times of war, but that seems more out of necessity for drawing up troops and not necessarily for protecting a town in the way fantasy town guards did.

[@bharl7226]

This would probably be more common in fantasy settings where wandering monsters might pose common threats to many smaller settlements 🤔

[@DesksAndDorks]

Fantasy, yes. Low fantasy no. Although given the other problems and issues, fantasy settings would present a kingdom, it's not out of the question to think standards would be lacking.

[@bharl7226]

Good point! I suppose it depends on your specific flavor of low fantasy. 🤔 My personal setting that I consider low fantasy is primarily characterized by being historically inspired, low magic (low power, rare to manifest/learn, difficult and dangerous to cast and control), with a little grimm & dark flavoring. Not lacking in monsters and myths for the fantasy fun and flavor, but most supernatural threats are low power enough for a decently organized, trained, and knowledgeable local militia to handle themselves with a little luck.

[@DesksAndDorks]

@bharl7226 ahhhh a lot of the low fantasy I play has monsters being a little more uncommon. So even when decently equipped militias encounter a monster it rarely goes well

[@leonidasnerevar6652]

Please make a video on bandits and how they should work in a low fantasy setting.

[@DesksAndDorks]

You're the second person that's said that so it shall be added to the poll.

[@bharl7226]

I third this request! And raise you the addition of other types of criminals, especially the fantasy rogue concept 🤔

[@DesksAndDorks]

And now we are broadening it to new heights. Love the addition to the idea.

[@bharl7226]

And that can lead straight into ancient laws and law keeping, another equally misunderstood blank spot in fantasy. I’m so glad I recently found your channel, as you’ve already helped me ground my fantasy with greater confidence and creativity! My TTRPG system I’m creating will be much better thanks to you! *bends the knee dramatically* I have joined your Discord, milord

[@AbstractTraitorHero]

Man just proved ACAB goes back far in history.

[@obamabiden]

when i had to make a city for a game i was dming, i was (kinda by accident) quite committed to not giving them stereotypical elder scrolls "town guards" accidental because I established the sort of, selection of armed forces the city had access to in the first session because there was a tense situation the players watched involving them and a foreign emissary who was trying to bring his own soldiers inside the general theme of the place were it was sort of pre-apocalyptic, with most of the country it was nominally a part of having devolved into the average spuls game setting, so I wanted to give a feeling of disarray ,in total there were -the duke's personal varangian guard ripoffs -a group of hastily-equipped peasant militia -a collection of random knights -some castle guards seen later, who were never seen outside the castle - the local criminals, who mostly masqueraded as/had taken over various urban guilds, and because of this actually made up a large part of the armed men available to defend the city (later in the plot once they were "on-side" -the ambassador and his men, who in the end were allowed in the city -the place also had a standing army who weren't *meant* to be in the city, but there was a period where their officers snuck them inside to try and deal with several of the former groups the general implication being the whole place would've devolved into a city-wide royal rumble absent the intervention of the classic 3-6 random guys who just kind of start acting like a hivemind one day

[@DesksAndDorks]

That is very very close to how it would have been hitlstorically!

[@obamabiden]

yeah i was definitely thinking on a vaguely historical basis at the time, but a lot of it was an accident based on my tendency to over describe things, or both mixed together the gang controlling the guilds for example was established by some offhand crime fiction-style line like "he's got people everywhere, and all the guilds in the city in his pocket"/an anachronistic mafia reference but the guilds actually also organising groups of soldiers was just a thing i heard happened historically, and also something i thought the players would find funny when i told them (much later, long story) "so with the army away and little contact from outside, it seems most of what the city has available for it's defence are the ducal guard... and the guild of weavers" (the standing army in a place with otherwise very stereotypically high medieval organisation was a little anachronistic, but I was describing a city in an already partly established setting, and this weird duchy that already didn't fully follow the governing structure of the surrounding kingdom having an actual army *did* work as a justification as to why the place hadn't also turned into Dark Souls

[@n0etic_f0x]

Okay, so fun guard idea. I have a town where all the guards become enthralled by an evil horror, you come under its spell if you have a metal helm, standards guards all have such armor so they have started capturing people. The town is just now noticing they must do something. The fun thing I have is four people are playing guards against my PC. One knows what is happening, and one is trying to further the plot as the adversary, and the other two are just thralls. Even as the GM I will not know until a set time (hope the players will have done something or... well we are up against 25 guards it will be a TPK) I have never done this weird three-sided mystery idea. I will not know how it works until tomorrow. It’s a Halloween one shot and it will be fun to know what happens.

[@DesksAndDorks]

This is a great idea. Also the idea of playing musical chairs with an evil helmet is as hilarious as it is sinister.

[@n0etic_f0x]

@ Okay… now I like this idea. The guy working for the horror is doing it because his helmet is the real influence. Yeah, okay that’s actually just very fun, like a reverse Elder Scrolls Grey Fox.

[@DesksAndDorks]

Counter point. The villagers are actually villainous cut throats, and the helmets are good and keeping them in check. The party thinks the helmets are evil but it turns out the helms are rhe good guys.

[@n0etic_f0x]

@ See this is why I keep commenting on your videos. I have had such poor luck with people who love low fantasy and safety tools. I don’t know why but they have just been very low creativity I am the GM and want to win the game against you or someone who avoids all conflict. It’s really nice to know there are people who are like not trying to just abuse these concepts, for whatever reason they may not be at my card shop but they exist.

[@DesksAndDorks]

@n0etic_f0x which sucks because the games I've had have been excellent. I'm not sure where it comes from but it's definitely possible to have some really awesome games and it bums me out that you haven't had those.

[@minutemansam3122]

Honestly I would say that a club would replace the dagger as one of the kings of medieval weapons, and would make more sense as the primary weapon of any first level guard. Daggers make good secondary weapons and self defense weapons for a person taking a stroll because it's small size makes it practical to carry, but makes for a rather shitty primary weapon against anyone with an axe, spear, sword, or, well, club, due to a more limited range. Unlike daggers, clubs have a very long history not only in warfare but also for law enforcement or peacekeeping. It was the primary weapon that citizen militias in the US used to enforce the law prior to the creation of the Boston Police Department, the first professional police force in the US. It isn't too much of a stretch to conclude that cudgels, clubs, batons, shillelaghs, or any variation thereof, were the most common weapons carried by peasants, either for self defense or to apprehend criminals. Daggers are great, and if you're just a normal dude going shopping it's a great self defense weapon, but for a guard it would make a poor primary weapon compared to a club, axe, or spear.

[@DesksAndDorks]

For a guard it's not bad but a certain point dagger takes it pretty easily. It's crazy how much the social contract of "everyone has a dagger so who cares" happens in the middle ages and into the Renaissance. I talk about it more in the low fantasy video but the daggers greater versatility as a tool combined with its social acceptance elevates it beyond the club (at least for the medieval era).

[@SusCalvin]

​@@DesksAndDorksPost-sengoku jidai had some limits on who could carry weapons. So commoner town guards might carry staffs, clubs etc.

[@john80944]

Honestly, this is better than the Low Fantasy one. There are more of specific stories in here.

[@DesksAndDorks]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@Liberater4589]

for the guards in skyrim i've always interpreted them less as 'town guards' and more like the men at arms for the jarls

[@DesksAndDorks]

That's probably a fairly accurate idea especially for Whiterun and Windhelm

[@ChristnThms]

Basic economics... you'll get more of what you reward and less of what you punish. Time and money are somewhat interchangeable for this purpose, but gaining a trade skill consumes time in exchange for future money earnings. Most tradeskills produce a trade good or service. Violence IS a tradeskill, of a certain sort. If you devote time to getting good at violence, you can get paid to do it... but the number and type of employers becomes far more specialized. Your employer is a person or organization that has enough wealth or ambition (or both) to PAY you to do nothing but destroy. These are not benevolent employers. Ever. Even among those peasant guards you discussed, the only ones who ever got good at violence are the ones who spent time training at that INSTEAD OF performing regular work. He's a better fighter, but worse baker/farmer/smith/carpenter. Thus, he must either redidicate himself to his mundane trade or seek better employment as a guard, else his meager lifestyle becomes WORSE. He MUST spend his TIME as a valuable resource to maintain his lifestyle. The old saying: God made men, Samuel Colt made them equal is a very interesting observation of this truth. Reliable repeating firearms that could be obtained by commoners was the first time in history that a commoner could stand up to a trained soldier effectively, without devoting immense time to training to fight.

[@jestersnb9761]

"Historically speaking:regardless of culture, language, religion, or skin color, the more powerful you make a "town guard" the more likely they are to turn against the populace they protect." It's class. The ruling class needs to protect its power and privilege, or else the lower classes would eke out more autonomy and make the ruling class less rich. The richer the tyrant, the more they can give to their guards, the more unhappy the populace is.

[@DesksAndDorks]

Yeah this is 100 correct.

[@TactlessRedacted]

Commenting to feed the algorithm

[@DesksAndDorks]

I salute you for your service!

[@darkranger116]

"you were at more risk of running a foul of a nobleman's guards than you were of the gangs" yeah, no bard ever made a song called 'f*k the firefighters' for a reason 😭

[@SusCalvin]

@@darkranger116 Rome has a funky system where street gangs are part of the urban weave. And part of the whole client-patron system. My friends made an urban setting where the city police largely cares about crimes against the city, and the personal guards of the aristocracy are just that, they guard specific people and their property. The day to day protection of plebs is their neighbourhood street gang, which collects a fine.

[@darkranger116]

@@SusCalvin Im beyond ecstatic that my ACAB rouge is canonical

[@SusCalvin]

@@darkranger116 I don't know what legal system your game has. Right now I play Esoteric Enterprises. A game where a fully operational modern state suppresses the PCs. You have to act a lot different than when you face four townie reservists with staffs. Magic, vampires, ketamine, cults, homeless are all suppressed. The state offers a lie and will take extreme measures to protect it.

[@SusCalvin]

@@darkranger116 In the cities my friends wrote up... There is no police on the streets. You know your local street gang and pay tribute. If they lose a feud with another gang, you pay them. The law is an expression of what the city ruler wishes out of the population. The cities are dying Barsoom city-states shrinking as the weirdness outside the walls encroaches.

[@darkranger116]

@@SusCalvin we're doing a historic-inspired low fantasy late-rome 'dark sun'. the 'dragon sorcerer lords' exist in title not as actual dragon-hybrids, and many of the machinations of cultural dealings are going for realism first, mythology as the auxiliary support structure second. and the situation is nigh nearly the same. lack of resources closing in on all sides, with no internalized societal support outside of the rich affording personal police to protect their hoarded resources, as government officials buy tickets out of the cities into other neighboring nations using their rich constituents caravan connections to get out before it all collapses. ah Chicago. A tale as old as time, lol

[@TheWampam]

Please note, that historically milita townguards basically always had actual weapons and were not running around armed with pitchforks and skythes.

[@kalavi-knightlygaming]

Rule 1 of fantasy worlds never anger the town guards also never attack chickens ever

[@DesksAndDorks]

Rule 2. Never anger the guard chickens

[@NaN-noCZ]

The reason town guards become corrupt INEVITABLY when you give them more power is because that power is not taken by them but given to them by someone more powerful, and the only way for them to maintain that power is not to serve the peasants, but the person giving them the power.

[@sebastienschubert2991]

Is "thrashing" related to threshing?

[@DesksAndDorks]

That is a fascinating question that I don't actually know the answer too! I will have to look that up.

[@PXCharon]

Talhoffer spotted

[@DesksAndDorks]

I had to look up what a Talhoffer was because of this comment thanks for the new word internet friend!

[@flyboymike111357]

It's interesting that the modern fireaxe is just a halberd without a speartip.

[@DesksAndDorks]

And a longer back hook as well which from the primary sources was the most used part apparently!

[@flyboymike111357]

@DesksAndDorks That would make sense given the typical building materials most structures would have.

[@DesksAndDorks]

It seems like the hook was especially effective because of the poor materials on some buildings too. It was really intetesting.

[@flyboymike111357]

@DesksAndDorks But it does also inform characterization, too. It's easy to imagine how someone called up to serve as a constable/fireman/paramedic like it was jury duty would be a little overwhelmed. But you can also see how the professional substitutes and members of a protection guild would be a bit like modern first respondents in personality. Some sources I read suggest they had similar mixed reputations. Just curious.

[@DesksAndDorks]

From my understanding and readings it does seem like there is a bit of a mixed feeling about fire duty (at least in Medieval and Renaissance Europe). Some saw it as a necessary part of being in a community and others just did not want a part in the danger. As for it being a mixed bag we have reports of some roman firefighters taking the opportunity to torch evidence or rival businessmen and that practice seems to extend to some Renaissance era city states as well. I can't find much on it in Europe but my guess is an opportunist in one time period would probably act similarly in another.

[@TivoDelNato]

“Historically speaking; the more powerful you make a “town guard” the more likely they are to turn against the populace they protect.” OP realizes ACAB in real time.

[@TheReedsofEnki]

Giving all the military toys to random small town police forces maybe wasn't the best idea.

[@umbralupus6488]

I would point to the origins of the police as an institution for why acab, given the slave catching and strike breaking. The police were doing this stuff well before they were given military equipment. Its better to think of them as enforcers for the ruling class, whichever ruling class it might be, whether nobility or capitalists.

[@victorykraft2007]

Countries like the US have pretty well established systems to protect rights. Outside of countries like the US the "guard bullies" trope seems a lot more common even today, with many republics struggling to keep severe corruption out of the forces meant to protect the people. Seems like a parallel to these societies.

[@DesksAndDorks]

Oh man, historically for the US, that is not true, and I wish it was. Pretty much regardless of time period or section of the US it was not good historically. To the point that it was going to be its own section but I wound up cutting it.

[@victorykraft2007]

@DesksAndDorks Maybe gives some hope for these budding republics in the world? It would be interesting to delve into what factors have been most effective at lessening that

[@DesksAndDorks]

Again the US has a lot of those same issues. If hope did come from what I've read it was by community driven protection efforts.

[@DeltaCain13]

@@victorykraft2007 Specifically what I think DesksandDorks is getting at, without going off on a specific tangent of it, is the origin of policing in the US has its roots in slave-catching.

[@DesksAndDorks]

Partially (that's only in the southern colonies) in the north a pretty large number of police departments acted like private bodyguards for wealthy business owners and in many cases were used to violently opress labor movements and stifle free speech.

[@disconnected7737]

MUD AND BLOOD SPOTTED! WHAT THE FUCK IS BAD ART?

[@talscorner3696]

Ah, historical medieval laws and orderings. What a lovely mess xD

[@DesksAndDorks]

Lovely and can make for some roleplaying!

[@drivinganddragons1818]

Great video. Didn't wait for Q&A so you may have addressed this, but particularly in a feudal system you also have the guards who represent the next level up. For instance, this town may be in a baronecty or a county, but a sufficient threat may lead to a Duke, Grand Duke, Prince, or Marquess troops/guards coming into town. For good or ill. There's also game style to consider. I run a lot of 3.5e. I often tell players, particularly in session 0, to remember that from 3e forward, D&D in particular is more super heroic or heroic fantasy, less S&S or adventure stories. Often a level 1 PC is already a 1 in 100,000 or better talent in their field. A guard's loyalty has limits. A night watch of two or three of the sheriff's men aren't likely to confront even one PC walking around in gear that represents the GDP of the entire province. For instance my best friend played a minotaur fighter duel wielding great axes. He had what he called "Intimidating Hide", where a guard spotted him, he rolled intimidate and said "You see a bush". Long story short, the guards agreed it must have been shadows from a tree and wind in the bushes. My point is, remember that a lot of guards, even guards much higher "level" than your think, are often like rent-a-cops. They will tell at you for parking in the fire lane or nab a kid for shop lifting, but if a guy comes to the mall with a rifle, they're running.

[@PvtSchlock]

2:40 key point: technocracy is the rule by experts. It is important to understand one's limitations and ignorance. "Bow down before the hoary head" as it were. There are times where experts fail and only eagles tread. 5:47 when the morality of elites and the masses align they may overcome materially and technolically superior foes. The stone age inhabitants of New Mexico ejected the Spanish empire for instance. I'll shut up now and enjoy this Fine Video Production (FVP). Thank You! Addendum: Look to Mosca, Pareto, Michels. Guard should reference bringing players to book. Piepowder or Lord's court, maybe charter town but unless you're talking about a vigilance committee, you're talking about top down organization. 29:16 yep, hierarchies have goals. 30:37 chronic oaths had huge significance in the ancient world. That's how men lived in the presence of the gods. You were a punk if you wandered the underworld as some unknowing ghost. Sacrifice is love if nothing else. Ok, really shutting up. Sorry.

[@Jeromy1986]

I'm always against the anti-cop thing that people very much want to spread these days. I did like how you mentioned guarding an ideal. That's what I want all guards to portray. Literally just keeping others from harming one-another regardless of social class. And we need town guards since most players are murderhobos. Unfortunately, with high fantasy, we have to try to make the guards prepared for magic.

[@DesksAndDorks]

It's interesting because historically fighting for an ideal seems to be the exception rather than the rule. Most of them seem to either be paid professionals throwing their weight around or communities banded together because there wasn't a better solution. As for the murder hobo thing I've found my players get less murder hobo-y the more invested they get in the world/characters. Not a perfect solution but it might help!

[@Oglokoog]

I mean sure, if you want to make a historically inaccurate pro-cop portrayal, go ahead.

[@highlorddarkstar]

@@DesksAndDorks I’m always interested in how policing works without police. Ie “hue and cry”. This leaves the Town Guard as a military force that man the walls of the city.

[@DesksAndDorks]

It really depends on time period and culture..for the most part communities tended to police themselves more or less.

[@highlorddarkstar]

@@DesksAndDorks very true. But it’s interesting how modern policing takes over our thoughts. It makes sense in fantasy, but taking criminals to court was a very different affair before Robert Peel.

[@HelotOnWheels]

How accurate was the watch that Shakespeare lampooned in Much Ado About Nothing? “You are to bid any man stand, in the Prince’s name.” “How if he will not stand?” “Why, then, take no note of him, but let him go . . .” “If he will not stand when he is bidden, he is none of the Prince’s subjects.” “True, and they are to meddle with none but the Prince’s subjects.” Did real watchmen sometimes earn reputations for Dogberry-like incompetence?

[@DesksAndDorks]

1. Thank you for referencing my second favorite Shakespeare play of all time. 2. Anecdotally it seems like some officers or upper ranks may develop reputations for incompetence but those that did were usually shielded by position, birth, or wealth. That being said it isn't completely far fetched to think someone in a small village like Dogberry would get a reputation and be put in an essentially meaningless guard position. This would have most likely occurred in a small village of some kind where they still loved and valued a Dogberry but may not have wanted them to do something that would jeopardize the community.

[@minutemansam3122]

Also, two things. One a minor correction and another a pet peeve of mine (and apologies if this comes across blunt and matter of fact, tone doesn't carry well over text). It's pronounced halberd, not halbred. Doesn't take away from the quality of the video (which like your low fantasy one is fantastic) but it does stand out. This one is my pet peeve. I'm a Romanophile, so please forgive me. The eastern Roman empire never became the Byzantine empire, or become heirs of the Romans. They were the Romans, and were the medieval continuation of the Roman empire. Byzantine Empire is a purely historiographical exonym, but nobody referred to it as such while it existed. It was just the Roman Empire. The Catholics sometimes called it the Empire of the Greeks but that's just filthy Frankish propaganda.

[@DesksAndDorks]

That's interesting about halbreds. I've heard and seen it spelled and pronounced both ways. As to the byzantine thing, I'm going to completely disagree. For maybe the first 50 years after the collapse of the empire proper, you could call them roman but to culturally, ethnically, economically they very much were their own distinct thing.

[@TwinSteel]

🥳🫂👍🏿 Added to the house rule quest and top tier rpg lists

[@DesksAndDorks]

The quest for all the house rules continues!!!!!

[@TwinSteel]

@@DesksAndDorksthe quest never ends 😄 good luck with the kickstarter 🎉

[@DesksAndDorks]

@TwinSteel thanks! I'm thinking it will be great but as always we shall see

[@MyrddintheBard]

Great video. Good change to the thumbnail and title. In regards to the Varangians most were Kievan Rus or Norse ethnically for the first 100 years though some were not. It was a highly sought after and prestigious position. They were basically the only warriors Emperors fully trusted for the most part. Far more loyal than Praetorians of the Romans. These guards and the ranks you give them are far better than the "Fantasy Cops" or Skyrim Hold Guards. Far more interesting and able to be characterized easier.

[@DesksAndDorks]

1000 percent I wish I had the meme comparing them to the praetorian guard of Rome but it essentially boiled down to the Roman's not being much in comparison.

[@MyrddintheBard]

@DesksAndDorks I'm surprised how long the Praetorian guard lasted as an institution. It's funny how much they flipped loyalties. I guess whenever someone went to dissolve them they got dissolved. Much like a certain U.S intelligence branch which likes to keep it's funding.