We Have a Wayland Problem

Today I talk about the lack of stability when it comes to Wayland compositors, why it matters, and why time is the only cure.
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#ramble #wayland #thelinuxcast

[@TheLinuxCast]

I spout the most amazing nonsense on Mastodon. Follow me there: fosstodon.org/@thelinuxcast

[@eobardthawnemcoc]

no

[@TechnoMinded-qp5in]

Microsucks appears to be the biggest Linux promoter thank you for your videos here is one plus about Linux it's at least not injected with ads like Windows 11 I am popping onto Linux because Windows is actually getting worse and Microsucks apparently doesn't wanna hear people complaining even though we pay for their service. Linux is free you guys are brave for even using it I am trying real hard to convert I miss WIndows 7 and I am more familiar with WIndows 10 I have little to no Linux experience and as a noob I some how managed to install the official Arch Linux I am messing with distros for now until I get back into Arch Linux its self the whole thing kept breaking on me. So far nothing but positive vibes from Garuda Dragonized I am seeing some people use it over Windows 11 for Steam games and I am trying it out myself so far it works as a SteamOS alternative. Also I am very slowly drifting away from Windows I will miss Windows 10 and I am struggling the Linux challenge to stay on it for at least a month as my daily Operating System I will be honest I'm done with Windows and Microsoft not taking people seriously so for now I did them a favor and deleted Windows entirely.

[@blackphoenix3701]

Wayland definitely still has some problems but considering it's state even half a year ago, it has come very far. And since the community is so focussed on it we can expect it to get betterand better at exponential rates.

[@michaelutech4786]

Wayland is probably the most lobbied piece of software in history. I mean families and tribes of pieces of software being based on something resembling a standard defined by somebody, somebodies who are opinionated first and foremost. X is older than Windows for Workgroups (if I remember right) and since I saw it the first time, it worked mostly as well as it does today. For over thirty years, X has been reliably doing its job. It's come further than Wayland reached after a decade or longer in its first X release. Now that all major Desktops are committed to fully adopt WL and eventually drop X, Wayland has to succeed, otherwise the whole ecosystem is falling apart. I will be happy when Wayland finally leaves an alpha state. But the process that lead us here is utterly ridiculous and annoying. I just wonder how much technical debt Wayland will have accumulated when it finally reaches something deserving 1.0? And whom am I kidding, these is no such thing as "the Wayland", there will be tons of Waylandish interpretations of opinions and even more arbitrarily chosen restrictions and annoyances.

[@p5eudo883]

I have to agree with this. I had horrible experiences with Wayland for a while, around the time it started being shipped with major distros and even when it became the default in some. Lately, it's so much better. But it does indeed come with some problems. OBS crashes on Wayland. And I had issues with one game (Shadow Tactics: Blades of the Shogun) running poorly despite running very well on X11. I didn't do thorough testing with the game, so it's possible some other issue was at play.

[@Mario1vsSonic1]

Wayland has existed longer than android. I really want wayland to succeed because I use ancient hardware and need the least resource eating thing. But wayland always comes with "Just 2 more weeks and it will be good" Like man microsoft has reinvented the windows graphics server like 3 times and had it more stable and better than wayland. Yes windows has other issues but I have less issues with windows graphics than wayland. Remember, wayland is older than android. It's not something new from the last 3 years.

[@vincentemonet304]

Lol, Wayland is 15 years old. It should have been in this state for years now. The APIs are just badly designed. It is still completely unusable for me who uses Linux for professional programming (bugs with firefox, bugs with screen sharing whatever the tool)

[@artemsmushkov766]

I'm on Linux for 15 years, and for all those 15 years 2 things never change on Linux: it's state of eternal revolution (pulseaudio, KDE4, GNOME3, systemd, wayland, pipewire, ...) and it's almost ready. And when something is almost almost ready it's time for new revolution!

[@esra_erimez]

You raised a very good point here.

[@skelebro9999]

Then we have some Windows 7 users still stuck on like a decade old OS.

[@cyberpunkspike]

That's why I don't use Linux any longer for my workstation, the revolutions don't delivers the goods now.

[@Bareego]

I really hope they'll settle on pipewire (JACKS3) now for a while. I hate it when they keep changing the sound back end and it breaks all kind of things with sound apps.

[@artemsmushkov766]

@@Bareego except on pipewire I still could not get roundtrip latency less then 25 ms on USB interfaces when on jack I easily got 8 ms, and from what they said on their wiki I don't expect any improvements there. Sometimes I even start thinking about MacOS, it may have some big flaws but usually they are easy to work around and MacOS is stable enough to use the same workarounds for years.

[@brod515]

@1:10 "Instead it's to complain and rant like I normally do" Uahhh yes it's a good morning 🍵

[@gregcampwriter]

I take it that DWM in this context isn't Deutsche Waffen und Munitionsfabriken.

[@dvndude91]

Lmfao

[@notuxnobux]

DWM is Desktop Window Manager, the compositing window manager for Microsoft Windows.

[@DarthVader11912]

I totally agree man this is the same problem for me. As for JSON, it's just a JavaScript object and objects in JS are Key value pairs. Everything is in quotation marks because you can have a key that contains a space or a dash which would give you errors when working in a programming language.

[@TakeThisLove]

Not everything in JSON is enclosed in quotes. Only keys are quoted, while numeric types, boolean values, arrays, objects, and null types are not. The quotes around keys and string values serve to differentiate strings from other data types. Although JSON has various applications, it may not be the best choice for configuration files. This is not to say that JSON is flawed, but rather that it may be unsuitable for certain use cases, such as config files

[@TechnoMinded-qp5in]

Microsoft is encouraging me to switch to Linux the more they fail to listen to customers there might just be a full Linux take over around the corner.

[@ForeverZer0]

0:40 The word you were looking for is *port* of i3. Essentially a re-implementation with the same API, configuration, IPC protocol, etc. with the express purpose of being a drop-in replacement for i3 under Wayland. I don't think anyone tries to deny they are similar, being 100% compatible with i3 it is the explicitly stated purpose in its description..

[@VioletJewel1729]

JSON is the way it is because it inherited its syntax from JavaScript (after all, JSON is an acronym for JavaScript Object Notation), and to communicate easily with it (and make it look similar), it makes all "strings" be wrapped in double quotes. You could have numbers and floats (which aren't wrapped in quotes) also - eg, { "myNumber": 42 }, which is distinct from { "myString": "42" }

[@ShmuggumsMcGee]

I'm glad to be a floating WM guy, I can just use GNOME or KDE and fall back to Xorg if something on their Wayland implementations doesn't work. Running a Wayland-only WM or DE is not that feasible just yet.

[@raiguard]

I've been using sway for over two years and it is one of the most stable pieces of software I have ever used. It is truly phenomenal!

[@Karn0010]

I just started using Linux in January (A new years thing after 30+ years of windows). Still figuring all this stuff out, but I know a couple things. I love the way Hyprland looks, but dear god did I lose a couple days tinkering with the config and with waybar. That is the only reason I switched off it, I don't know if I could ever be happy with it. I'd always be tinkering with it. At least with plasma I'm doing what I wanted, using and learning Linux. Won't lie, fun as hell configuring Hyprland.

[@archip8021]

"window manager, as i prefer to call it" Prefers to use compositor

[@Linuxdirk]

Wayland has one only one big realß-life issue for me now, since everything else basically works now in my daily routine: It's complex and complicated to do the most basic screen recording with multiple windows, audio sources (coming from and going to different channels) and video sources at the same time. According to most findable instructions you "just" need to install multiple different portals and daemons and you need to rip off a perfectly working sound system and install pipewire and wireplumber and whatnot, and then - if you're very lucky - it works ... on a good day ... at best with only slightly worse performance.

[@p5eudo883]

OBS flat out crashes for me on Wayland. I too have multiple sound devices, and multiple monitors. It's why I still run Xorg most of the time, despite loving the desktop performance of Wayland overall.

[@cyberpunkspike]

@@p5eudo883 Wayland performs worse the vast majority of time, and is far less stable.

[@johannesjoseph823]

Wayland is not ready for my case/workflow, but I wouldn't be surprised if this changes in 5 or 10 years

[@DCM777.]

Works for me so the problem is more on your side!

[@TheKebabFTW]

@dcm777 lol like it's a problem to not use wayland. Wayland is only for nerds, the rest just don't care

[@DCM777.]

@@TheKebabFTW Lol, so soon you are also a nerd! Wayland is way better than X11, much smoother, faster and the graphics are also better. But keep living in the past i don't care!

[@johannesjoseph823]

@@DCM777."I don't care" says the one who pisses and shits themself when somebody doesn't use Wayland on a singular system

[@DCM777.]

@@johannesjoseph823 Move on bubba!>

[@bumblesby]

I've spent the last week moving to Wayland from I3. I decided to try Wayfire. I'm on Arch so it is in the AUR right now. It's going OK, but my setup is quite simple compared to yours. I tried Wayfire's shell which has a panel/bar, but moved to Waybar and am much happier with that. I tried a little gaming on Steam, and that seems to be working great. It is a lot of work and learning moving to a Wayland compositor! I'm tired LOL

[@mariogutierrez4989]

Hyprland is 95%+ there for me. Unfortunately, it's the 5% that annoys me. 1) hangs sometimes when logging out 2) steam sucks in hyprland. Steam dialogs get stuck behind each other and you can't start any games 3) waking from sleep hangs system 4) cut copy from terminals to-from GUI apps like firefox is hit and miss. I'm happily back on X11 and dk (dynamic tiling, xmonad layout, bspwm like configuration) window manager. Stability is more important than bling.

[@christian80gabi]

The first Wayland compositor I installed on OpenSUSE was Sway (OpenSUSEway), which was the worst experience for me, 'cause the developers just decided to not support NVIDIA proprietary drivers. I installed Hyprland and it's just perfect. I even have such a tendency to use a Hyprland session than a KDE one.

[@pcallycat9043]

There is just too much of the linux ecosystem that relies on xorg and the functionality it provides.. Until the wayland ecosystem is on par featurewise... it's going to remain a split mess. I look forward to the day that wayland has the same polish and completeness that the x11 stack, but by then, it'll be 30 years old and we'll all be talking about the next big thing... much like what happened with xorg and wayland lol. Wayland has taken 15 years to get to a point that it's almost useable enough that with a shit ton of extra work and external library support, some functional desktop environments can exist. Until feature parity is reached though, xorg will hang on, even if there is little x11 development being done. Re: Hyprland, until it ships with a fairly functional default config (and i mean more than opening a terminal that may or may not be installed on the system), it'll be hard for people to adopt. As it stands, it's great for tinkerers like myself, but for the average user, useless by default. On of the things I do appreciate about the Garuda distro, they actually ship with a very usable Hyprland configuration out of the box.

[@phonewithoutquestion80]

Gnome and KDE are about the most I'd roll with on Wayland at the moment. The more minimal wayland compositors (Hyprland is slick, but not that minimal) like Sway, Cagebreak, DWL and River just demonstrate how immature Wayland still is. Sway comes out on top for stability, but its stock bar/panel is a black sheep. It doesn't play all that nice with some tray applets, I have no clue if this will be fixed. Honestly wayland today feels like a competition to see what is less annoying to deal with. I'd rather "just use my desktop", ya know?

[@Winnetou17]

Well said. The immature part is very normal for such a big project. The most annoying thing that still remains is that it's pushed as being ready when it's really not. And Xorg being rapidly left behind, a bit too early. Ideally, it should be left behind after some time after Wayland is truly done and out. Fortunately it's mature and stable enough. Overall it's not the worst thing, but it's still extra stress for a lot of people. Kind of like Apple and Microsoft impose and push changes whether you like or not, people eventually deal with that.

[@izuichikitahara5014]

Sincere question: what is there to gain from using a Wayland compositor if you use tilling window managers exclusively? For desktop environments I can totally understand: Gnome performs far better on Wayland, and the same can be said about KDE now (when it's not crashing and doing weird KDE stuff). But for window managers, you gain at most cool animations with Hyprland, and pay the price of having to deal with its continuous development + all the stuff that still doesn't work on Wayland in general, while on Sway you get pretty much i3 and nothing else, but with all the limitations of Wayland. So overall you're getting less features and more headache. I just can't see any advantage in this case.

[@kelvinpina3392]

also it perfoms faster, for me it just able to run waydroid which uses wayland

[@izuichikitahara5014]

@@kelvinpina3392Waydroid I understand, but any TWM will perform as fast as any other in my experience.

[@crossscar-dev]

hyprland is the arch of window managers

[@spicynoodle7419]

And it is GLORIOUS. I had stuck with KDE because I was a Wayland fanboy and i3/sway isn't my cup of tea. I switched to Hyprland on my *tips Fedora* and I got used to it in a few hours. The default look and the config DSL are stupidly easy. I just slapped some VIM key bindings and my computing instantly gained +10℅ efficiency

[@crossscar-dev]

@@spicynoodle7419about a week ago I switched to hyprland on my arch system and immediately loved it.

[@SevereMkII]

Absolutely beautiful color scheme with the green. What theme are you using ?

[@nuldorvamoysenor2091]

"Why is my not mainstrean window manager, supported by a relatively small team, so buggy? IT MUST BE WAYLAND!" you said it yourself, you change window managers too much. Pick a more stable one, and try using it for at least a year. You'll be happier

[@TheLinuxCast]

There aren't any stable ones, that was the point of the video.

[@nuldorvamoysenor2091]

@@TheLinuxCast i said more stable. But still. If you had a better experience with X based TWM then use that, if you want to use Wayland but there are no stable TWM that uses Wayland, then switch to something else. I've been using plasma for the last six years and it's been flawless, specially with Fedora. But hey, this is Linux, you are free to do what you want. That's the beauty of it.

[@GodUranus]

chill out satan

[@nuldorvamoysenor2091]

@@GodUranus *Satan chills out*

[@cyberpunkspike]

15 years, wayland is still hot garbage. No wayland compositor is more stable than X11, and Linux doesn't mean shit, I could run w/e the fuck I want on MSDOS if I feel like it also. STFU about the beauty.

[@cyberpunkspike]

The problem with Wayland is that it's underspecified, and thus promotes too much fragmentation and undermines interoperability for me to stand by it. The performance benefits never appeared either, breaking all of Linux really should bring clear tangible benefits, and it's been 15 years.

[@Bruces-Eclectic-World]

Okay Matt... Cold Dead Hands It Is!!! 😁 LLAP 🖖

[@-aexc-]

hyprland is THE compositor because it's flashy and developed insanely quickly (and imo recklessly (hence the bugs)) also sway absolutely is ready imo, can't remember the last time I've had a bug (been using for 2+years, would remember a big over the last year) this video seems more hyprland isn't ready, which it isn't (as vaxry would probably admit himself)

[@shatterstone3045]

It's honestly pretty insane how far Wayland, and especially Hyprland, has come in the last 6 months to a year. I remember it being barely usable when I first switched, where I'd even have issues with Waybar (which I don't really have anymore). But I completely agree with your point about a lack of choice. Hyprland is the best, and there really isn't anything that can compare to it. Sway and Qtile are good (I know because I've used them), and River and DWL also seem to work well, but none of them seem to be close to what Hyprland has been able to achieve, or have a similar pace of development.

[@choppedcheesegaming]

Tried to use wayland and yea ... my computer just really can't handle it. Back to Xorg it is

[@egoguy5307]

Hyprland works well for me but I've definitely had my fair share of bugs and it's made me consider looking at using Qtile or River when it breaks

[@Treetrain1]

NVIDIA on Wayland (for me) is genuinely one of the worst desktop experiences I've ever had I've tried NVK and the base experience is much better on that, but the performance is still not great. Once NVK is faster, I'll switch to Wayland.

[@bumblesby]

Yeah, I had a GEForce card and couldn't take it anymore once I started playing with Wayland. I purchased a Radeon graphics card and my entire system works better even under x11. I think the key is good Vulkan support among other things.

[@notuxnobux]

True, distros and desktop environments switching to wayland by default has made the experience for nvidia users worse than it was in 2006.

[@spicynoodle7419]

As a developer I can tell you that this fragmentation and development velocity will benefit all of us in the end. Not being able to copy paste code from another project is a non-issue. In greenfield projects such as a Wayland WM you can get in the zone and monke type a feature in, in an afternoon. X11 is so crusty and hacked together in order to accommodate ten different OSes and 100 different WMs that it is practically built with bugs on top of bugs. You can't just hack a new feature in because the CI for OpenBSD breaks or some crap like that

[@cyberpunkspike]

What a load of complete shit, do you hear yourself? Wayland has been out for 15 years, 15 fucking years, it straight sucks. Making it easier for Redhat or one other company to add features to their personal compositor, is not capable of replacing what the community did. Wayland provides no ability for shared components running in different process spaces, it's a garbage devolution. 15 fucking years, if your theory was even somewhat correct, the increased velocity should have replaced all of X11 a decade ago. What new feature could you not hack on X11? Expand upon that for us?

[@gorrumKnight]

Hyprland works perfectly for my usage. I do a lot of gaming, with some coding in Eclipse and PyCharm. The only time I had an issue it was my fault, not Hyprland's. Caveat is that I am running an Arc A770 so I have dodged so many AMD & Nvidia issues with Wayland.

[@thiagoassisfernandes]

I would really like you to try dwl, now there's even a bar patch, I'm loving it... Came form hyperland, and it amazing how it is smooth

[@keenancarey7041]

I recently decided to try my hand at window managers so I played with awesome first. Couldn't consistently keep resolution and wallpaper (sometimes it worked sometimes not). I read i3 was easier for beginners so I'm trying that. Both work good enough out of the box for me to use properly, but if I ever intend to be a full arch Chad, I gotta figure out what I'm doing wrong before I ever get to a spicy rice.

[@samiralajmovic]

JSON is not a programming language, it's a data interchange format. Also, I guess the quotations marks is to make it easier to parse and to explicitly differentiate between numbers and strings, but I agree it could have skipped quotation marks for keys and for values, if you want a string it should be enclosed in quotations marks.

[@krunkle5136]

Oh no, the Wayland Mafia payed him off!

[@OcteractSG]

In Wayland, windows are called surfaces, not windows. So you would be looking for surface managers instead of window managers. However, these programs do far than Xorg window managers, so “compositor” is what’s sticking.

[@TrustJesusToday]

I actually had to go to Hyprland to update Open Suse because Plasma 6 would not handle the update. I am guessing KDE will catch up. Wayland is getting close, but Hyprland is about as good as a PC environment gets. Waybar is pretty good. I wish EWW wasn't such a pain in the neck to get up and running.

[@j_t_eklund]

ROFL.. IT IS BETA SOFTWARE... You are literaly talking about active development branch release. That is beta sometimes even alpha.. Like WTF?

[@skytale35]

is it though? With the Desktop environments and even some distributions shipping it as default can you call it beta? It has been around for 16 years lol, if its still beta it is time to abandon it lol. Hell its been around half the time of linux . . . how can it still be "beta"?

[@Little-bird-told-me]

Same issue. I am unable to find a good TWM in Wayland. Sway doesn't work with my NVIDIA card. Hyperland is only goof for Arch and I use Debian. KDE is not my thing and Gnome is not my thing either, so we are stuck brother

[@marcandruu]

My take on hyprland is that it should use a release version of wlroots instead of a random commit, which I'll never understand why

[@shatterstone3045]

I've heard that this issue is what stopped it from being packaged on Void (and possibly other distros too?). I really think that vaxry should consider rebasing to a release of wlroots. Surely it's good enough by now, isn't it? My point is that I completely agree with you. In terms of the why, I seem to recall vaxry stating that it stems from needing to use some latest additions to wlroots, and because Hyprland is sort of the pioneer of new features, it made a lot of sense. But I agree that I'm unsure as to whether it is absolutely necessary to stick to a non-release version of wlroots over an actual release that would make it to distros, making it possible for hyprland to be packaged more widely across distros.

[@GambuSaur]

Its developer wants it to be "bleeding edge" software. That is why.

[@AX_-]

wayland is not working at all in my machine :(

[@TechnoMinded-qp5in]

I am experimenting with Garuda Dragonized and it still looks better than Windows 11 and emulators and Steam as well as Wine are pre-configured and prepped to be installed automatically in Garuda Gamer so far I am having no issues with it and find it more useful than SteamOS it's an Arch Linux based Operating System and it's running a hell of a lot faster than WIndows 10 still need to figure out how to put ROMS and import them into Lutris.

[@bkovacs7]

I tried to run NsCDE on fedora 40 pre release just for fun. And didn't work, because only " Wayland" was installed.

[@CCJ1998]

I'm still not satisfied with Wayland. KDE Plasma 6 pushed me back to Windows the most I've ever used it in years just to get work done. The whole reason I came to Linux was to use an OS that doesn't get in my way and lately with all this X11 vs. Wayland crap it's becoming more of a mess than helpful. Feels almost like when Windows 7 was dying and Microsoft was forcing everybody onto 10. I'm getting that same feeling now in Linux.

[@timvb2999]

Finally someone who put it the best. I'm having a terrible experience with Nvidia + Wayland and distros are now trying to push Wayland really hard while new Nvidia drivers keep introducing new issues and getting stuff like "lol just use AMD" isn't helping. I was really hyped for Plasma 6 but the constant flickering issues are driving me insane and it seems to be related to xwayland. I could use X11 but it doesn't feel good knowing it's on the chopping block.

[@wilmergaleano7465]

@@timvb2999 It's Nvidia's fault and not Wayland's.

[@cyberpunkspike]

@@wilmergaleano7465 Lies, you forced everyone in to one process, which means nearly every feature must be implemented in one compositor's codebase. This made shit far more unstable, Wayland is absolutely to blame. It was unstable as shit on an all AMD set up for me also, it will continue to be, unless that anemic protocol has had many new extensions standardized.

[@robindeboer7568]

Im pretty sure you called several window managers compositors at the beginning of the video?

[@tristen_grant]

So?

[@ForeverZer0]

@@tristen_grant Not that it is a big deal whatsoever, but I will assume they mentioned it because they are different things, and are not interchangeable terms, as was mistakenly insinuated in the video. Some window managers will include a compositor, but compositor/window manager are two distinct technologies.

[@oalfodr]

That's a lot better than when he says depreciated instead of deprecated

[@_nishantk_]

@@ForeverZer0 not in the case of wayland, in wayland they are interchangeable

[@sachinbhat7057]

Maybe you should give newm-atha or river a try.

[@anasouardini]

Your take is so realistic.

[@TechnoMinded-qp5in]

Microsoft is making me use Linux I don't want to go back now because they fail to respond to customers say hello to a new Linux user.

[@bitterseeds]

Matt: if everyting is a fire, nothing is a fire. Or so we say at work. :D

[@conjurermast]

What is the practical difference between dynamic tiling & what i3 does with the autotiling script running? (most ppl use Sway and i3 that way) I said this before, but you should really give labwc a chance, it's far less buggy/unstable than Sway & it's pretty much feature complete for a floating WM, has Window Snap, gaps and everything.. (It's very polished, stable software) I understand that you prefer tiling, it's just a bit upsetting that most stable & usable Wayland WM is not represented in your videos.

[@methos1024]

I really think gnome or plasma has the most popular wayland compositor :-) . The (Tiling)Windowmanager are fine, but i really think they are not used by the majority of Users :-)

[@no_name4796]

Honestly i wouldn't use wayland if not for hyprland lol Hyprland single handedly fixes most problems i have with wayland and tiling wm

[@edchapter]

I am a i3 user in X but in wayland I am just using gnome. I added my personal keyboard shortcuts and As long as it is not buggy I am completely ok with using gnome instead of i3 and it is not buggy so far.

[@bigpod]

quotation marks with json is actually a good thing it simplifies the whole thing basically everything is in quotation marks cause otherwise some things would need to be, for parsing reasons, then other things wouldnt need to be, and it just becomes a giant mess, basically JSON came from JavaScript and in JS there are certien reserved keys you may still want to use in JSON but cant due to its limitation with JS, then if you want spaces in your keys you need quotations again so they simplified the whole deal by just putting everything in quotation marks, json is really good IMO even tho for humans YAML is slightly better, json is basically a cross-section part of venn diagram between good for machines and good for humans. so no statement that if everything is in quotation marks then nothing is is true from perspective of looking at it now but from technical perspective no there are certien things that would need to be in quotation marks anyway so why not make everhting in quotation marks and just be done with it

[@MarcoDamaceno]

Wayland doesn't have a good support for trackball mouse. This type of mouse still works better on X11 having many options to be configured compared to Wayland.

[@asishreddy7729]

If you really want the best looking and most stable experience on Wayland then your best option is gnome.

[@skytale35]

Introduced in 2008, it has been around roughly half the time of linux itself . . . I can't use it. I live on a drawing tablet . . . smh, it simply doesn't work for me at all. 16 years . . . that isn't long development, that is a fail.

[@cyberpunkspike]

Agreed, Wayland is garbage, because it's ran by garbage. The proof? We all had to get wrecked, and they never delivered the goods.

[@channel-uz9fz]

Polybar is absoutely horrible, Waybar is so much more featureful and customizable -- it's a night-and-day difference.

[@EasyGameEh]

it works 50/50, but you only get that 10% of the time(c)naeked gun

[@YourComputer]

Apart from perhaps the xdg portals stuff, most of what is mentioned are not in themselves a wayland problem. Simply guilt by association.

[@cyberpunkspike]

It is wayland's fault, they under specified, then provided no guidance to anyone other than themselves.

[@YourComputer]

@@cyberpunkspike The wayland protocol is not intended to cover everything that is observed with X11. And since it's just a protocol, implementation is left up to the developer. To blame the protocol for an implementation is guilt by association.

[@cyberpunkspike]

@@YourComputer No, the protocol left things undefined, unspecified, and up to the implementation intentionally for ideological reasons. They MUST be blamed, it would be unjust to not blame them.

[@cyberpunkspike]

@@YourComputer Wayland is and was in a position of leadership, I don't care if it's unfair to blame them powerful, they could have cared about everyone and choose not to.

[@YourComputer]

@@cyberpunkspike An app not fully implementing the protocol or having a bug or not meeting people's expectations is no fault of the protocol. The thing about protocols is that no one is obligated to implement them. Leaving application development up to implementation would be well within their right to do so, and would in fact be the proper choice, given the nature of programming. There is nothing wrong with not covering application development. AFAIK, the protocol defines everything that it specifies.

[@CyperN077]

Wayland's little bugs make you go **** that should have been fixed on day one...

[@yogurtColombiano]

I switch between Hyprland or dwl.

[@VioletJewel1729]

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. I've had my eye on dwl. Is it worth it to switch from dwm?

[@LeandroSilva-yo1qh]

Anyone can use Flameshot on Wayland?

[@DCM777.]

Yes works fine for me. I am on Plasma Wayland with Nvidia GTX 1050. And i prefer Flameshot over Spectacle!

[@debasishraychawdhuri]

don't use swaylock, use hyprlock.

[@nichohells]

Unusable for me

[@escapetherace1943]

same I still can't use it but I want to because x11(xorg) is complete trash

[@meskes4059]

Yeah… I think I’ll just stick to KDE6

[@qrockz007]

oh man, ur desktop looks sexy af

[@VioletJewel1729]

seems like a lotta work. I'll just keep usin dwm. have fun, since waiting for broken tools to unbreak seems to be a hobby of yours. jk haha

[@Aoitori365]

"wayland is not ready" says the guy who thinks kde 5.27 was unstable

[@michaelutech4786]

It sounds like we will soon have ten different things that claim to be a window manager or desktop environment per desktop background image. The only tangible problem I see with X11 are potential security issues. BUT - there are a million more concerning problems even in Linux. Signing keys, corporate software disregarding privacy and all that. How many incidents did we have because of X11 inherently insecure design? X11's code base is a mess, nobody wants to touch it. Okay, maybe. But what kind of mess is what you are describing? So if in 10 years from now, Wayland will eventually have something resembling feature parity with X, maybe there will still only be wayland and not 5 different forks, I guess Wayland will want to drop X support. Then half of the software will not run anymore. ssh -X will probably not work anymore. Can this crazy multi-decade effort to replace something that - at least from a user perspective - worked perfectly fine really worth it? I personally don't care at all whether X or Wayland is running on my computer. It's Wayland if I install a new Linux distro and I keep it until something is not working, then I make the effort to switch. I'm running X right now. I have the strong impression that the primary goal of Wayland is to serve the Wayland project, not users who have real issues with X.

[@andrewrapp8686]

Unless someone steps up to implement HDR in x11, it's a dead end. There's loads of x11 fanboys, but not one who will step up to actually do the work. The way the open source community works is that it goes the direction of the people who actually write the code, not speeches about the code.

[@michaelutech4786]

​@@andrewrapp8686 X11 is dead since at least 5-10 years. Not quite sure when Wayland transitioned from an option to the strategic decision. It would be incredibly stupid to spend time on developing anything for X11 in recent times. If X11 had HDR support today, nothing would change. If it had it 5 years ago, it's unlikely that anything would change. What bugs me is not that Wayland exists, or that it is replacing X11. What bugs me is that it's still not finished and that it's driven by opinionated people. Core technologies have to satisfy the requirements of users and technology build upon it, not a project team. Wayland is not a take-or-leave it thing. It is what we're all going to use. Also, the open source ecosystem is least of all a community. It's a world with nations and governments, corporations and yes, also people and some communities that strictly keep a distance from others. There are one-man projects, community efforts, projects that have a benevolent dictator, others that don't, there are projects owning their community and users and milking them, and few that just work, the Linux kernel, GNU, ssh, zig, rust, X11, ... all OSS. X is older than Linux. Of course it sucks. But it works. It does because it was designed and implemented to get a job done, not to feed the ego of some people. That's why it works. The only thing that is as bad as Wayland is the GNU Hurd kernel. And when I say bad, I don't mean bad design, bad code or bad people, I mean that it's still not working. GNU could still have relevance, had they hopped on board Linux and be a competitor to all the guys using their work to build fleets. The difference between Hurd and Wayland is that Wayland is backed by the decision makers - probably the likes of Redhat and Canonical - not "the" community. Hurd is backed by ideology only. That may be a good thing. Wayland is 14 - fourteen - years old, and people are excited that you can actually use it, for most things. And you say it's all about HDR that's not working. I don't use HDR. I don't care. It's for gaming? The thing where you have to reboot to reconfigure the GPU? Or is it to make the wall paper look better? The thing that you need transparency for, so that you can see it? Or is it for the icons in the small bar people have in the tiling WM? Don't get me wrong, I see your point and it's valid. Wayland is great in many ways and I have no issue at all with it, if - for example if they would not think that their ideology is more important than the needs of UI apps that require placing windows relative to others. The reason why they refuse to support it (or at least did for years) is because it doesn't fit their vision. As a consequence, window manager need to be programmable to allow for certain UI paradigms and cross app functionality. Instead of creating features that produce community wide benefits, we keep polarizing technologies and people into big and little endians. I keep thinking "how cool would it be if" and the reason why it isn't is nearly always opinionated decisions and fragmentation (community/technology). I hate it. X11 could have easily be rewritten five times over in rust, in those 14 years. HDR included. And it could have been improved. Once rewritten and refactored. Or it could have been replaced with something entirely different. Something that's done after some 5 years. Nothing of real value takes much longer to be done in software world. Well few things. How often do you go see your boss and tell him: "Yeah, it's not finished yet. And it can't do this. And the thing you asked for is not going to happen. But look at the wallpaper, it's vibrant!" - and the answer you get is: "Great! That sounds exciting, time to replace the old stuff"? That's Wayland for you.

[@michaelutech4786]

@@andrewrapp8686 Imagine all the desktop environments and linux distros would not decide "A is the default" and instead present a multiple choice list of the 5 or 10 most relevant criteria to select between X and Wayland. Would HDR be on the list? How would that affect the number of Wayland installations? The first point on the list had to be "We will eventually do everything better than them, just not yet" for Wayland to have been a choice on that list 10 years ago (after 4 years of dev) . What would it bring to the table today? In terms of tangible advantages that a user might want to make a choice upon? Such a list would be bad for innovation, but it could provide some attachment to reality for decision makers.

[@notuxnobux]

@@andrewrapp8686 HDR is a meme. I own a HDR monitor but I still consider it mainly a marketing scheme. It's still a joke on wayland as well and requires vulkan injection hacks and non standard wayland protocols. Adding support for HDR itself for the most common use case (full screen applications) is very easy to do in X11. It's 1 function call to linux drm, setting the HDR metadata.

[@andrewrapp8686]

@@notuxnobux if HDR is very easy to do in X11 why haven't you implemented it yet? Chop chop, less yap yap more prove it.

[@oalfodr]

Why don't you learn why JSON uses quotation marks? It would be nice to stop hearing about it

[@007arek]

What to learn? Json is just bad for config files.

[@te41157]

I'm using sway and my graphics tablet still does not work properly. I'm not shure why every single wm needs to implement support for input devices seperately. That seems to me like one main design problem of wayland. It's a complete lack of the modular aproach that has made open source projects successful in the past and I think it's the main reason why the progress towards wayland is still incredibly slow.

[@occultsupport]

why are you always ricing your desktop. Do you ever get any work done?

[@TheLinuxCast]

I haven't changed a rice in 25 days, so IDK what you're talking about.

[@jeffreygrantsmith]

If you're working on a new rice, you're ... working. 😂

[@Aoitori365]

if you don't like it then make your own and stop bitching about stuff on youtube

[@cyberpunkspike]

That's why I use Windows, because software requires lots of people to create, build and maintain it, and you suck at doing all three. I now use WSL, specifically because you suck.

[@claudio.corona]

I wish the day when you are not complaining about something will come

[@TheLinuxCast]

Never going to happen. If I don't complain about things, I'd have no content to make and you wouldn't get to make snide comments! The horror

[@tristen_grant]

You don't have to watch.

[@bumbumbumdumbumdum]

River's been working petty well for me. It's dynamic and has all the features I wanted from dwm. (admittedly I had to dig through man pages and obscure posts to figure out a couple things) Honestly if you don't want anything more than dwm offers, its already in a pretty good spot. I have had problems with gaming and additional monitors though. Not sure how much of that is river though and how much of that is wayland.

[@wyfyj]

I hope you didn't see my blow up on fediverse. Man was that a rant. I'm glad Wayland works for you now!