We Need To Start Having Honest Discussions About Creative Vision | Glass of Water

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[@MusicKat217]

14:38. Someone actually mentioning that the POC rep is Shera is disappointing?? I love this channel sm, honestly. Thank you Lily. But anyways, there are some examples of this that I can think of at the top of my head, others feel free to add! This isn't just "my opinion" btw, this was discussed and mentioned by a ton of ex She-ra fans that are POC criticizing the show. There's just too many for me to remember 1. Some of the black characters (Bow, Lottie, Mermisa, and that one guard I have no idea what her name is) have no meaningful development and are incredibly stereotypical. Bow gets one moment to shy after venting his feelings about always having to be the happy and nice guy, but it's quickly forgotten about in favor of the other characters. Other than that, he's just the "comic relief black character" stereotype. As for the others, Lottie is the angry black woman stereotype and that one guard is also that way (correct me if I'm wrong, I don't remember much about She-ra) and Mermista is just whiny and annoying with no change in character by the end. I think the same criticism is given to Netossa but I can't remember if she fits that angry stereotype. Also, apparently Adora was supposed to be black? But again, according to Nate, he was "not allowed" because Adora is the main character and apparently the main character shouldn't be black?? Despite pretty much all of the other characters being a person of color? I highly doubt it. Maybe she was never intended to be a POC in the first place, maybe he just didn't want to. Who knows. 2. Nate won't confidently confirm Catra's ethnicity, but says that he has seen her as Latina and likes other headcanons. Catra being a cat with her animal instincts (pouncing, licking herself, putting, etc) while also being abusive and quick to anger as a Latina should speak for itself. I'm in school at the moment, so I will come back to this but have these examples got now. I know there's a lot I missed so I would appreciate some input!

[@Lily_Orchard]

Pinned and thank you.

[@MusicKat217]

Since KZbin currently won't let me edit this comment: **SHINE and **PURRING is what I meant. Sorry for the mistakes!

[@screamingwhales4031]

great explanation! i do believe mermista is supposed to be south asian, but the same points apply.

[@MusicKat217]

@@screamingwhales4031 is she really? I had no idea! Thanks for the info! Would go back and edit the comment but KZbin won't let me-

[@SurealG]

when it comes to the shera stuff idk about what really happened with the creators or if they where trying to write the characters badly but catra and shera fighting constantly because of their characters and personalities and circumstances

[@goldencyclone4984]

It's not super related but I did want to point this out since we're on the topic of Gay Rep. Decided to go back and check out the latest season of Power Rangers to see how Hasbro was running the show, and to my shock and awe, the Green Dino Fury Ranger, Izzy, is in an openly lesbian relationship with a recurring side character. They're together by like episode 10 of Season 1, holding hands, cheek kisses, the B plot of an episode of Season 2 is them going to prom together. I'm absolutely impressed by Hasbro here, especially because 5 of the 6 rangers are played by minority actors as well.

[@asomewhatdecentperson9190]

Even better, they’re keeping the cast for the 30th anniversary season! So we’ll probably see more of Izzy and Fern!

[@goldencyclone4984]

@@asomewhatdecentperson9190 Yeah, hearing they were keeping the cast on for the first time since the Zordon Saga is what made me go check it out.

[@pirateguy3521]

Fucking Same

[@professordetective807]

May not be animated, but open LGBT+ rep in children's media is still open LGBT+ rep in children's media.

[@LuxVertas]

Hasbro seems to be... wiggling their toes in LGBT+ representation, in the IDW's 2005 Transformers comics they had multiple same gender and.. well their was trans-gender transformers but one writer kind of made a lot of people go "eww" as the character's transition was not 100% consensual...

[@star3catcherSEQUEL]

As someone who likes Enemies-to-lovers/Foe romantic subtext but hates the way it's done 99% of the time, let me lay it out: It only works if the characters have similar moral alignments and levels of power. If one is an essentially good person, the other also has to be an essentially good person. If one is kind of a shitty person, the other also has to be kind of a shitty person. And one *cannot* be at the constant mercy or control of the other or at serious risk from them. What I personally want from an enemies-to-lover pairing is a story about two flawed but ultimately good-hearted individuals who actually have a lot in common but only realize this slowly over time, often conflicting specifically *because* their talents/abilities/power are so close to each other that it provokes competition with no clear winner at any given time. The enmity between them is used to highlight how neither one is able to easily overcome the other, thus highlighting their equality, and them eventually falling in love is a story about setting aside personal pride to understand someone is different and coming to find the commonalities instead. That's what I want: Talented rivals who learn a lesson about tolerance. And yet instead, we're constantly bombarded with this abuse fetishizing.

[@archivist_13]

This sounds a lot like Kaguya-sama: Love is War lol

[@owowhatsbliss]

The good version of enemies to lovers is rivals to lovers

[@owowhatsbliss]

@@PhantomPhera I never said that was bad I just said rivals to lovers is better than enemies to lovers

[@fulana_de_tal]

@@PhantomPhera if i had to give an exemple of a good enemies to lovers couple, that would be (surprisingly, consideringthat i haven'twatched that show since i was 12) Flutershy and Discord, because, in the end, they're enemies to lovers only good version: enemies to allies to friends to lovers. Enemies to lovers usually don't work because people like to use it as an excuse to pretend that violence is sexual tension and that you can build a relationship only on sexual tension. The characterd have to become at least allies before it is hinted that they might become each other's love interest. One popular (non-canon) ship that is tecnically enemies to lovers but is normaly not seen that way and i think that works is Sokka and Zuko, the ship being built on their friendship at the end of the show instead of on their enemy situation at the start. My conclusion is that for enemies to lovers to be actually good it has to be just friends to lovers or allies to lovers with extra steps. The enemy, if they're a villain, has to be redeemed (or the hero corrupted), or at least have decided on redemption (or corruption), before the romance plot starts.

[@star3catcherSEQUEL]

@@fulana_de_tal Yup. Funny how no one seems to have any trouble grasping the concept of enemies becoming FRIENDS over time, but go one step further and suggest a possibility where they then move on from friends to lovers and suddenly our minds are all blown lol?

[@HatoHearto]

Catradora didn’t walk, it got its shins beaten with a club and then painfully limped until it collapsed 10 feet from the finish line

[@nabstablook22]

yeah when i was watching it i was so confused when they kissed becuase up until that point i thought of them as adoptive sisters

[@insecuresession1638]

Remember when Dreamworks did Camp Cretaceous and everyone's favourite lesbian ship was foreshadowed throughout the entire show and came together a few episodes before the finale and there wasn't anything toxic the entire time to "hide" it, it was literally these 2 characters get to know eachother, they become besties, they develop as people, they realise their feelings for eachother, they get together, we see them in the relationship working out whats new, we see them still together in the epilogue. That was it, it was beautiful.

[@Oak_Eggar]

Omg i need to watch tht

[@anonymouscheeses]

No but srsly I loved that show Yasammy forever❤️

[@matildalitsey143]

Sounds Ike lumity kinda

[@Dracosfire14]

Man who gave the creators permission to go that hard? Thanks for bringing this up, cause I haven't heard anyone talk about what a phenomenal show that was and how sweet and supportive the relationships are

[@thequacken3226]

Something I remember a lot from when I was growing up was when people said that boys hit girls they like because “they think that’s how you show affection”, and it seems that that is at least a reason why some people think that abusive relationships are fine.

[@hazukichanx408]

The old "This is happening, so I guess it's normal" fallacy, I suppose. People are treated abusively, internalize it as part of life, and keep the abuse going. Not everyone does this, but too many people, I fear, do. About all one can do is to try to communicate to those people that abuse is not the way to live a good, happy life - nor get actual respect (that can only be earned), or whatever they want - and then either they take it in and try to change, or they don't.

[@Hanmacx]

I saw it the other way around in shows, were they think "girls hitting boys" is okay Because it's different from their point of view, somehow

[@thequacken3226]

@@Hanmacx I think that might stem from the whole guys need to be tough mentality. Like they are supposed to be able to take a hit and not show pain.

[@CJmakesspedmemes]

@@Hanmacx I grew up with this idea and is just weird that people think its okay for anyone to get hurt by another even if it's the "weaker" gender (I promise that I don't think like that, just saying from the creepy people who made that idea up pov)

[@Topdoggie7]

This type of mindset has been around so long did it shades every single future generation and fucks their head up.

[@thechurroguy5013]

“Dreamworks is too involved and restrictive on our creative flow” *Looks at whatever the fuck Shrek is supposed to be* “You know… I don’t know why, but I don’t believe you.”

[@barrettbirks1058]

I'm as old as Shrek, where's my video essays saying I'm a subversive masterpiece?

[@seraphywang4638]

I totally forgot about that

[@thechurroguy5013]

@@barrettbirks1058 I don’t need an essay to know how much of a masterpiece you are, and while I may not you, I’ll kick anyone in the throat who says otherwise. You do you, lil rockstar.

[@Topdoggie7]

This needs a feature and an award. Shrek five is coming sooo.

[@maskedvalk1406]

so let me get this straight, Raya and the last dragon, Raya makes a friend in like 1 hour, then is betrayed by said friend basically getting her farther killed and ruined the world, and apparently that is a relationship forming? did people forget that raya was literally aggressive towards her throughout the majority of the film and pretty much hated her.

[@deraybell9140]

But TRUST Raya! Ya gotta gave trust! She just wants a better world! Says the stupid blue dragon that either gets or almost gets exploited by anyone whose name isn’t Raya.

[@amandatownsend5132]

@deray bell yup honestly such a terrible message to kids like oh this person repeatedly treats you terribly noooo you gotta trust them like damn can't wait to see how the kids who take that advice to heart turn out

[@deraybell9140]

@@amandatownsend5132 You've ever seen government raised kids?

[@flintfeatherr]

I have a creative writing professor, older cishet man, and he has to tell me that it would be more interesting if I had my trans character already be out by the start of the story. It is not a progressive issue that people have, it is purely skill. Trans and gay authors don’t automatically have better writing than their cishet peers.

[@Hanmacx]

And what your writing professor told you, were that good or bad suggestions for your story?

[@flintfeatherr]

@@Hanmacx Having my character Samantha be already on her transition when the story starts created more opportunities for interesting storytelling rather than having her realize her transsness at the end, being a big reveal for her character. Now, it’s just a part of her and I can write her to be a more realistic human. You can write about a character realizing that they are trans and have that be a story, but you need to have the right skills to be able to pull any kind of writing off. Skill is not inherit to any type of demographic

[@Hanmacx]

@@flintfeatherr hm yeah, having the character at the beginning or in the middle of transition opens more writing potential 🤔 Another comment said that story lives from conflict, having the problems already solved might result in a boring story (or more difficult to write interesting)

[@kayleensworld1196]

@@flintfeatherr Good for you I hope things are going great with your character, story, and your life, also your writing professor sounds nice I hope good things for him as well.

[@jossebrodeur6033]

@@Hanmacx That really depends if the conflict is about the character being trans or not. If the main conflict isn't about them being trans, then there isn't much point having them realize they are trans at the end of the story, since at that point the same conflict could have been had during their transition. Plus having a character be mid transition during a story does open up potential external conflicts and reactions. I don't understand what about that is so hard for you to grasp.

[@jewelqueenwrite]

The section on how the need to mythologize/create heroes out of the progress of LGBT+ rep really hits the nail on the head. A lot of people do want to be the one who does it but no one ever does it alone. It’s just not possible. It’s kinda like how as scientist or researcher, you don’t making the discovery on your own, it’s a collective effort of everyone who helped from every last detail. It also speaks to an interesting thing in how both current millennial and Gen Z generations latch into these creators because they are closer to their age groups and don’t want to admit that maybe we need to rethink how we view storytelling and criticism

[@chromaticcrazyass]

People saw the TRAILER for the mario movie, saw Luigi being captured and possibly tortured by Bowser for Mario's whereabouts, and went "Yup! They're gay!" and I could not have cringed harder.

[@thelegend2146]

Enemies to lovers is one of the most misused trope I’ve ever seen, this trope can work if the relationship between the two “ Love interest” wasn’t a blood bath or straight up abusive , the Can be two people from opposing teams/countries/beliefs with some mild hatred/Rivelly but they can’t be abusive piece of shit who torture their loved one for fun

[@Sigzyl]

I can't believe this is what convinced me to ship Kaleshwi

[@hazukichanx408]

One interesting possibility is: Start with an abused wreck of a person: Never been shown kindness, engages in selfish destructive behavior because that's all they know. One day they face someone who stands up to them and puts a stop to their attempts at predatory gain at the cost of others. The two gradually come to understand one another, and the defender shares a new perspective with the abuser. Eventually, healthy changes begin to happen and the abuse fades into memory and regret. That's a story I'd enjoy.

[@thelegend2146]

@@hazukichanx408 yes!!! They can be bad people but not irredeemably so , there should be limit for how bad there actions towards their love interest and other in general. Also for the violence that should stay in bed (if they into it ) bc it’s not romantic to see 2 people being toxic to each other abusing each other isn’t fun, bc being toxic and being kinky is two different things

[@ewe3221]

​@@hazukichanx408 abuse victims being turned into villains, abusers and/or antagonists is arguably a WORSE trope. it's offensive at best and genuinely harmful to abuse victims at worst. just make them mild pricks to each other it doesn't need to be prefaced by making the victim a perpetrator.

[@rayn0577]

“Mutually Respectful Rivals to Lovers” is a way better version of enemies to lovers, but we never get that version ☹️

[@buttonsfan]

I loved She-Ra, I didn’t care for most of the couples. Catra: You left me 😾😿 Me: 😤 She asked you to come with her! Stop saying she left you every five minutes!

[@ayannabranchcomb7535]

People ship elastigirl and screenslaver? The woman who was trynna force her and her family to commit crimes against humanity and then kill them? Mmmmmmkay

[@rayn0577]

Yep, they completely ignore the fact that Elastigirl is happily married and ship her with someone who mind controlled her and tried to kill her.

[@ayannabranchcomb7535]

@@rayn0577 right, mr incredible os not the perfect husband but that is the point of his character so 🥴 id personally prefer a loving, loyal, respectful, prideful but willing to grow and change (which is literally all you can ask of a person) spouse over a violent, vengeful and manipulative one just bc the sex would be hot 😐

[@Topdoggie7]

If it's non-serious porn stuff I can understand but if they seriously think they'd be a healthy couple: Y I K E S!!!

[@ayannabranchcomb7535]

@@Topdoggie7 right like toxic smut that acknowledges its toxic smut is fine, hell I can even accept a well written fanfic that ships an unshippable couple as long as they admit that they have to rewrite the whole actual canon to make it work. Its the people, especially the adults, that are dead serious that scare me

[@Topdoggie7]

@@ayannabranchcomb7535 All of this comment. This is why I accept AUs but people say a bad ship is canon and a good idea, I bounce.

[@lucienfortner841]

Thank you for acknowledging how abusive and toxic Catra is. It terrifies me how few people seem to see it. As a survivor of abuse, Catra is literally just a walking bundle of red flags dressed up as a catgirl.

[@xenomorph1238]

I like how Rusty was shown in this video. You never see the fact that Rusty was considered non-binary for about 10 years before it was retconned. It just feels like such a way to disprove walking to running in terms of non-binary rep when you can point out that we had non-binary characters all the way back in 1984.

[@pkmnherofan22]

Discussion about how some Executive Producers NEED their worst impulses reigned in reminds me of things like Kimba the white Lion and Ren and Stimpy. When the executives were telling John K and Osamu Tezuca no to their worse ideas the shows were a lot stronger and enjoyable. But the second they had free reign to do what they want they ended up an overly vulgar and disgusting adult comedy (R&S) and an absolutely ghoulish minstrel show (Kimba yes really). Sometimes you need someone to tel you no for your story to end up any good. Also with regards to voltron don’t forget that the creators were ACTIVELY hyping up their LGBT+ rep and talking about how good it was gonna be, how Klance was gonna be canon, how Pidge is NonBinary, etc etc, then the finally season aired and Pidge suddenly WASNT Non-binary, and Keith suddenly couldn’t stand Lance at all, and I have people squawking that actually the fandom was putting words in the creators mouths and that they never said that

[@marqusmedina5983]

This is the only video I've ever seen that points out executive medaling isn't automatically BAD. KUDOS LILY

[@watchm4ker]

Executive oversight, as with many things, is like plumbing. When it's working well, you never notice and simply take it for granted. When it doesn't, it's all you can think about.

[@marqusmedina5983]

@@watchm4ker that makes too much sense

[@polubrony8159]

Finally someone agrees with me on the fact, that catradora is toxic The internet is full of people declaring that they are so romantic and its a love story for the ages, but since the beginning of the show i was sitting there and thinking that catra is extremely abusive towards adora I never liked catra, yes, her character is interesting take on a victim of abuse, but everyone seem to forget that adora was also abused by shadow whiether, i am pretty sure that her being okay with everything that catra puts her through is a result of said abuse But people even seem to think, that adora deserved everything that catra does to her, cuz she was “the golden child” I was so happy, when after the most massive screw up catra did, that, i remind you, ALMOST DESTROYED REALITY, that adora finally decided to cut ties with her and treat her like your typical villain - with massive amounts of hate But no, that would make our resident sad cat girl face the consequences of her actions that she refuses to see herself being to blame for, and we cant have that As you already said, the only relationship that catra should have had should have been with a therapist (Sorry, if my english is bad, not my native language)

[@polubrony8159]

And yeah, i’ve been shipping glimmadora since the first season

[@CJmakesspedmemes]

@@polubrony8159 the only problem I have with glimmadora is that everytime they talk it ends up in the mud

[@Rocker21344]

I can't stand how the best friend squad can get away with anything with no repercussions throughout the first season. Really killed my interest in Glimmer entirely. She's got so many problems. I would honestly rather see Adora be alone than with either Catra or Glimmer. Those two are both toxic and need therapy

[@blackkitty369]

@@Rocker21344 I agree

[@emma_nutella58]

The problem with Catra is that she pushed the limits into being redeemable, she destroyed the world and constantly bused Adora. The ship is toxic and they didn’t bother to improve on Catra. Reason why Lumity and Bubbline work is that the show spent time building the relationship showing how the two are better off with each other, I’m still sad Owl House got cut short like that

[@lucienfortner841]

Thank you for acknowledging how abusive Catra is. Far too few people do, and it scares me.

[@lucienfortner841]

Thank you for acknowledging how abusive Catra is. Far too few people do, and it scares me.

[@kitleecaplinger2987]

Thank you I am so tired of people ignoring that fact

[@jturner2577]

You dropped this 👑

[@fizkallnyeilsem]

Even tho im straight male, I just like to let you know Lily that seeing your journey from like 3 years ago, youve become very well versed in emphasizing the often neglected realities and implications of abusive relationships or fetishes, as you yourself experienced it first hand. Youre doing a great job questioning the status quo of how trans rep is presented. Nice to see someone like you could also check the moral direction of such movements.

[@Sigzyl]

Glimadora was RIGHT THERE for fuck’s sake

[@saragoodman1020]

15:14 YES! YES! That's exactly what I was thinking! In the clips of this show that I've watched, I've been shipping Glimmadora like crazy and I never understood why so many people flocked to catra as a love interest instead. There was one scene in which adora is dying and a memory of glimmer is the reason she kept going and I just... I love this ship, it would have been infinitely better than catradora had the show gone that route but I guess we can't have nice things, can we? *Pans over to Lumity* I stand very much corrected.

[@jatorihicks5582]

I hate when people say separate the art from the artist. Alot of the time art is a direct reflection of the artist and their views. Alot of people use that reason so that they can justify liking problematic art by problematic people.

[@_yellow_jacket1190]

My ex lives with her family (she has gay and trans siblings) and they absolutely ADORED shows like She-Ra, Steven Universe, and Korra; mainly because of the "romances" depicted in them. To the point where her sister their wife would cosplay as the problematic couples in question. Whenever I would bring up these very issues in the shows that they worshiped, I was called a bore, a hater, and told, "just let people like things". Turns out my ex had a warped view on romance and relationships, was extremally manipulative, and emotionally abusive...weird right?....

[@Lily_Orchard]

Pretends to be shocked

[@frick_____you]

The Loud House broke the fucking sound barrier so She-Ra could crawl. One of many reasons going "this show walked so this other show could run!" is stupid. The other being... well, since when does you running require another person to walk anywhere? I'm not very athletic; but I'm pretty sure that isn't how running works.

[@Lily_Orchard]

It's a reference to the Terry Fox Walk And honestly, using Terry Fox for fandom bullshit is ghoulish

[@tiffanypersaud3518]

They “were able to convince Disney that an abusive relationship was better than an interracial affectionate one.” Took the words right outta my mouth but said it better with those scenes.

[@Uliman97]

Just a thought that occurred to me as you were getting to the bit about Raya, Elastigirl, etc. But could part of it be that people are confusing kinks with relationships? Like, you can’t make a “kids show” and have a full blown whips and chains scene, but for some reason people still want to squeeze those things in because they think sex equates to a relationship, rather than just a part of it that can change from person to person? I know the wording of that needs work, but it just occurred to me while getting ready for work, so I’m leaving this comment as a bookmark for myself to come back to because I’m already cutting it close on time.

[@Lily_Orchard]

That's exactly what it is. Porn escalation

[@Samata94]

Fandom is in a bad place in which adults will cry if they are at all told to make the place more accessible for teens "Can't we adults ever have a space for ourselves!?!?", while at the same time they will throw the worst temper tantrum over the smallest form of discourse. And it must always be thermian arguments because bringing real life into the discussion is "bringing down the fun".

[@Lily_Orchard]

Yeah. A lot of adults in fandom will demand a space for themselves... in a fandom of a children's franchise.

[@nubblieidiot8761]

"Hey, Try reading watchmen or DADOES. Those are works for adults, That some rare, Speed-growing Might enjoy, But they're still made for you." "No, That's too dark."

[@ponygonporygon2153]

@@nubblieidiot8761 There's plenty of adult comedies both animated and non animated but they don't get talked about because they don't carry a massive lore library that fans fawn over.

[@peter_pansexual6243]

On that topic, I'm not a huge Stranger Things fan like I know the basics but I don't quite understand why older fans of the show are now getting pissed at newer fans. They call them cringe and what not for basically just doing stuff fans of other fandoms have done for years, cosplay, fanart and so on. Isn't this a good thing? Showing how popular the show is?

[@Wwhdduendjdhhfmwosdn]

Yes omg. I’m a young adult, and I understand wanting to have a space with people your own age, but it’s the internet! Especially if it’s media targeted towards kids/teens, there will always be kids looking for other people/content do talk with/consume. Also the whole discourse thing is so odd. Fandom doesn’t exist in a vacuum, it’s going to affect the real world, but if you don’t want to face that then just leave. Discourse dies down eventually.

[@samilentrau1324]

Honestly she rah wasn't that great, I do like how entrapta is canonically autistic... if you ignore all the times the other characters are ablest and casually very cruel to her for her autistic behaviour, to the point where you could argue scorpia and catra were nicer to her, even while catra was manipulating her. Sympathetic and kind characters can be so mean to her and it's relatable in a way that makes me stomach hurt.

[@lestro1110]

You don't win you just do better every time is such a raw line

[@helenarosno]

i love your critical video essays so much and i’m a huge fan of how you analyze media. i’m also in love with dana terrace’s writing in the owl house (i haven’t looked into her other projects), so when you said “dana terrance is a good writer” it made me smile so big. like, that little nugget of information that we were all already aware of spoken out loud by a critic is still so important to me

[@CJmakesspedmemes]

Dana terrance is simply not a person who supports Nazis and abusers, but can actually make good lgbtq content. Honestly I wish she directed SU as the idea was good, but the execution was awful.

[@Josephine_de_Beauharnais1763]

Here's a metaphor I thought up: Say you're in a race, you're at the starting line, the run starts and you take a step one foot in front of the line... then stop. And then, thirty minutes later, you take another, smaller, step. An hour passes, you shuffle forward a bit. Two hours, you step forward again. You're approaching the time at which a race is generally finished, and you're months away from a mile. Imagine that, then imagine that in all that time you've been slowly inching your way back, constantly. So you're only a foot away from the finish line. Then, another person who has decided to be in the race, starts off at a good jog that slowly turns into a sprint. You don't wait until the second person arrives to critique the first guy, but the noise of a crowd so excited for a race to even exist drowned them out. After quieting down, the displeased viewers finally get to critique the first runner and applaud the second for actually trying.

[@patchworkgremlin4993]

I feel sorry for the people I meet in animation circles who think catra and adora are a “romantic” pair. They aren’t even good if you claim it’s some type of kink dynamic because catra has no respect for adora as a person. A word of advice for anyone dating, respect isn’t negotiable and it needs to be their from the start

[@blackkitty369]

I hate that people later found out it was toxic! I was saying how bad Catra was but I was getting the"But she said sorry" crap. "I'm sorry " is NOT enough! If they did want Catra to be the love interest why make her do horrible things to her "love"?!

[@hazukichanx408]

I remember trying to find a decent yuri romance anime, and being surprised that - despite how popular lesbian pairings are in porn - there were almost none where two women just fall in love and end up as a happy couple. Usually they either get separated by the hand of fate (or rather, the hand of veiled bigotry) or they have to go through utter ridiculousness, like in Kannadzuki no Miko, where the couple have to kill each other and be reborn in some weird mystical way before _maybe_ being allowed to meet again in their next life and _hypothetically_ have a happy ending. It was heartbreaking, to be honest. I could never understand how more people didn't want to see a lesbian couple in a happy relationship. Challenges, sure, drama, sure, whatever... but just let them be happy by the end? How was that hard? I still don't understand it, except as depressingly prevalent passive homophobia. The nonsensical need for those in power to pretend homosexuality doesn't exist, or is 'just a phase' or some such derogatory delusion. We as a modern global society cannot keep clinging to such ridiculous and senseless phobias. Also, I remember seeing (in movies and elsewhere) the tired, malicious trope of the "crazy/angry lesbian", i.e. if two women have sex then one of them will randomly try to kill the other because the writer is unable to imagine their sexuality in concert with a working mind. Which is incredibly offensive and disgusting to me, even as an outside onlooker who has not been personally targeted by this shit. One could argue it's not my place to get mad. I would instead argue it's _everyone's_ place to get mad. To defend those who have been unfairly mistreated for far too long already. To look the asshole abusers in the eye and say "No. This ends now. You're _DONE._ You do not get to do this any more."

[@Hanmacx]

I don't know if "Venus vs Virus" counts

[@watchm4ker]

To my knowledge, Japan never really had a problem with homosexual relationships or romances per se, but that you were still expected to marry and have kids the old-fashioned way. Of course, that idea has gotten a lot more attention lately as Japan is in the middle of a demographic nightmare and an economy that's been overall virtually stagnant for 3 decades.

[@theking8347]

"there were almost none where two women just fall in love and end up as a happy couple" There almost no romance stories of any kind like that for one simple reason; they're boring. A story needs conflict, and in a romance-centered, obviously the romance is part of the conflict.

[@bob74h67]

Idk think your not trying hard, if you are unable to find yuri anime Being a fan of the genre myself, there's plenty of shows like strawberry panic,sakura trick,citrus,nezohouhara trap ntr,fate/prisma illya and many more Angry lesbian trope, actually never even seen in this. Even in western media where characters like catra,korra and luz are a thing and nobody there are raging crazy lesbos Your talking about real world sterotypes to a degree and acting like it's represented in the fiction itself

[@Black_Konoha]

That’s because Japan has a different culture. Plus there are a lot of yuri animes out there, so obviously you aren’t looking hard enough

[@marydog3816]

This reminds me of the incident with the comic code authority. While they had a lot of absolute garbage rules, before the comic companies stopped following them and the eventually disbandment, the code did keep those comics at a constant standard. Now that really no such standard exists, there's massive difference in standards. Some comics that never would have been approved under the code and incredible thoughtful masterpieces. But there's also a TON of just dark edgy garbage. I think artists and creators sometimes need limits placed on them so they don't succumb to their worst instincts.

[@karenroque3583]

In the show Tuca and Bertie, Bertie’s boyfriend, Speckle, is consistently characterized as a very passionate architect. So due to some hijinks, he buys a really rundown house with the intention of fully remodeling it so that him and Bertie could move out of their apartment. As he gives Bertie a short tour of the foundation and how much he’s already installed, Bertie suggests to him that because this is such a big passion project for him he should “go all out” and design their new house however he likes with no limitations in mind. This, however, backfires immensely because he literally went crazy with interior design ideas and made their house look like the inside of a modern art museum filled with everything that Speckle likes but nothing fitting together aesthetically. Bertie thought that by giving him free rein it would make both of them happy as she had full faith in Speckle’s expertise, but instead it just made her boyfriend incredibly neurotic and her really uncomfortable with their promised living arrangements. In the end, Speckle is brought back to his senses and redesigns their new house, keeping both his girlfriend in mind and himself in check while remodeling, and creating a much more welcoming home for them. Stevenson really needed someone to look over his shoulder, see the 3rd storyboard of Catra mocking and being incredibly violent towards Adora with a sticky note reading “additional romantic tension” attached to it, and say “Hey,…maybe this won’t read as well as you imagine it will”.

[@galdorial]

It pisses me off that the abusive trope of "enemies to lovers" keeps being shoved into media for children. And I say this as a fan of the trope. It's fine to put in media aimed for adult because adults are *supposed* to be critically decerning and know that this sort of thing is bad and wouldn't work in the real life. It's messed up, but you're supposed to know that. But children aren't that. By putting these types of abusive relationships in front of children, you end up teaching them that hurting the person you love is normal. And it's not.

[@spinach001]

It's like when a boy actively bullies a girl and moms go on like "Oh, he just wants her attention! He likes her😌". I really hoped we moved on from this mentality, but apparently we didn't.

[@ArtemisMoon90]

I think a lot of the people who stan that kind of abusive romance were themselves abused and the reason I say that is because I used to be on. I loved catradora, but then I went through some heavy therapy(even a hospitalization). Getting therapy made me realize that what I went through was abuse. So many people suffer at the hands of people they love and make excuses for them because "it's just their way of showing it" or "if I didn't mess up so much they wouldn't, it's really my fault". It can be hard to admit that lovers or especially parents don't love you and I think so many people twist and rationalize it as abuse as love which just isn't true.

[@SolarSeaSlug]

This. I was living with an abusive guardian when I wat hed the show for the first time, and I'd spent so long internalizing all the emotional abuse from my family that I projected on Catra a lot because I felt like that much of a horrible person. I definitely needed this show because I felt like if Catra was worthy of love then I was too. I now know that torturing and manipulating the person you like is not at all the same as having a panic attack because I'm being threatened with physical harm. Thankfully I'm out of that situation now and I have a much healthier sense of self for it. Hope you're doing well too, stranger.

[@MouseTheGoblin]

I swear people who enjoy the violent enemy’s to lovers trope grew up in an environment where their emotional needs were never met, gaslit constantly, and other trauma crap centered around one or more close persons in their life. And they still hope one day the people who did that shit to them will grow to be better, apologize, and be the idealized version of themself that the harmed person idolizes mentally at all quiet moments in their life.

[@sweetpea2604]

We need to hold creators responsible for their fucked up stories. Why? because they are the creators, they came up with all the ideas for the show, and everyone else involve is just helping them no questions asked

[@ShadowSkyX]

So 50 shades of gray?

[@sweetpea2604]

@@ShadowSkyX Not just that, I’m talking about all shows & movies

[@goblinofthehole]

I was so scared you'd say something negative about Luz and Amity because it was the only time I had ever seen a gay rep and thought wow this is actually pretty good, so I'm glad there's no underlying problem problems with their relationship that I didn't notice.

[@dylansharp8471]

What now?

[@goblinofthehole]

@@dylansharp8471 gay people aren't represented well in most media, so it's nice to see one where they are represented well.

[@creeprnsidelink1918]

I'll be honest, as I've watched those three shows I unaware or not jumped right aboard with everyone else and praised it as much, especially She-Ra. I have a bad habit of watching something the first few times and not finding any flaws in them at all, and think they are wonderful masterpieces, especially when alot of people are saying the same thing. It's basically the herd idea, where you just go along with what everyone else is saying, but you're not truly thinking for yourself. Example would be the live-action Disney movies that I all thought were wonderfully brilliant and had no problems, and then someone on the internet pointed out problems, and then I started to look at them, and was like wait, they're actually not as good as I thought they were. Now I'm not positive if that's breaking away from the herd or if I've transferred to a new one, but it really is a problem that I believe quite a lot of people have, though I could be wrong. Will you follow blindly in the herd, tasting the same grass as them, with you all agreeing the grass tastes the same way? Or will you actually step out from the herd and venture off to make your own decision about the actual taste of the grass? I'm not great with metaphors, so this is probably a pathetic attempt, but hopefully it makes somewhat sense. I think we follow the herd knowing that we could be wrong, but we just want to connect with others and not be alone with our own opinions.

[@nichol1591]

Camp Cretaceous on Netflix just showed off a lesbian couple of their own. I dont really watch the show, only in passing, my kids really adore it though. They are in their final episodes and I just noticed that two of the girls got together at some point, and I was just like "Yeah, every time they have been on screen they have been super friendly and supportive of each other, so yeah, saw that coming." And that is perfectly fine.. We dont need these horrible toxic relationships in these kids shows. Cause really? What is it teaching to the kids actually WATCHING the show? "Oh, its okay if somebody is horribly abusive to you for years.. they may be your true love." We NEED kids to see healthy relationships. Relationships that stared as good, supportive friendships. We need couples supporting each other BEFORE they even make googly eyes at each other.. we need actual love... love doesnt come from abuse... I actually caught my husband telling one of our nieces "That boy is probably picking on you cause he likes you." And I had to shut that shit down quick. "If a boy is mean to you because he likes you, that's abusive. Get away from him." My husband had one of those 'ping' moments, like "Oh shit.. I didnt realize what that implied until now." That crazy shit we say over and over not knowing how damaging or fucked up it is.

[@aikolee]

I am surprised you didn't mention Catra's "redemption arc" (as u talk about those sometimes) which is used as an excuse for catradora fans to defend the pairing with which ive seen ppl do and yet it has left more confused than ever till i woke up and said no this is not how it works this is not how any of this works. Stevenson just did a terrible job with this romance, it feels like catra shouldve been A) just the bad guy or B) really low the damn crimes against adora or C) better off not a pairing at all

[@Riaah_love]

Every time I talk to a Catradora shipper about the merits of their abusive relationship they respond with that she was redeemed, and then when I tell them said redemption was shit they start backtracking and going "it was bad,but..." a lot of them openly admit that Catra had hardly changed and they’re just abusive. Hell, I’ve had some people tell me that these two are mutually abusive despite Adora never behaving this way towards Catra and also that’s not how abuse works.

[@elvieashton8889]

In a webcomic I was recently reading there was this one villain that was designed to be cartoonishly evil, every scene he was in he was just so enjoyably vile and he worked really well as the villain but dear god, the comments under each chapter he was in were horrific. “Oh he’s catching feelings” when it was revealed he was obsessively stalking her, “I ship this pairing so hard” when he tried to kill her. It genuinely soured the entire experience of the story because so many people were trying to fabricate a tragic backstory for this guy and were convinced they were going to get together when, or probably because he’d been nothing but cruel and abusive towards her in every scene. Luckily the author was actually serious about writing a fun villain and the mc got paired with her teammate instead but people were genuinely shocked that this happened and got upset that their abusive otp might not actually happen. I just want to know how these tropes became so normalised to a point where they’re expected, it’s not even fun and it’s definitely not subversive anymore.

[@sigh582]

What is the name of it? It sounds pretty interesting!

[@seraphywang4638]

Reminds me of Killer Stalking. The author is well aware it is psychological horror but everyone insists that its soo romantic. Painter of the Night was such a popular manhwa when it came out and it did start as a dude who abused his position as a prince to kidnap a person from the streets and force them through trauma to draw gay porn for him and the fans twisted that story so much that the author started believing in the romance and reforming the villain. The evil prince was so good and entertaining and manipulative and then they actually started devoting feelings. When the Q&A about reforming the villain was confirming that the story went in that direction, I dropped it.

[@melancholygirl7793]

Give the name

[@bpsara]

These tropes are normalized because, frankly and unfortunately, abusive relationships are normalized irl. They’ve been normalized since the times of when women were considered property instead of people. Especially when we talk about psychological & emotional abuse, which society has only recently started to fully recognize and acknowledge as a problem, tbh.

[@ninevehgrey]

​@@sigh582 same

[@dapper3160]

I can't really express myself well right now but.... I despise Catra. I remember being completely unaware of the shipping of Catra and Adora (and vehemently shipping Adora and Glimmer. I really had hope they'd be together) until the very last freaking episode. I don't know if I was in denial or just daft, but I was absolutely shocked when Adora ended up with her abuser at the end. Disgusting. Viciously harassing and attacking someone you supposedly love is not romantic, it's not compelling, it's not chemistry. It's at best a fetish that I did not consent to witnessing. I have brain wiped the entire series from my memory (until today) over that ridiculous ending. The series would've been 1000% better rep if, at the moment of Catra's confession, Adora reflects on everything that's happened between them and is just like, "No. You did all that to me while supposedly loving me, and now you force you feelings on me like I owe you? Fuck yourself," and then launches her into a void. Okay, I'm exaggerating, but... Still, idk. Adora ending up alone but lesbian would be legitimately better, healthier gay rep for me.

[@sailormermaidix24]

Yeah it's so tiring that many people will blue in the face to defend the worst or shallow depticts of BIPOC and LGBT+ tropes because its "representation" and "relatable". Like, how did we go about wanting to improve ourselves and fight off these stereotypes that we pointed out that its negative only to go and defend the EXACT SAME THING that we've been complaining about?! Just because its "representation" doesn't mean it's a good, corrective promotion of one.

[@drustanastrophel9538]

I think Catra and Adora could have potentially fixed their friendship, but it would take way more work than would be interesting for a show. They were raised in the same abusive environment, Adora escaped, and Catra couldn’t handle the fact that Adora was healing when she couldn’t yet. Like you said, Catra needs 10 years of therapy lol

[@your_SecondShadow]

Yay Lily video

[@jamlife919]

You know where it’s at 😄

[@your_SecondShadow]

@@jamlife919 yeah i love this channel

[@noreply9586]

I like your little stumble into the video with the puppet. It’s cute and has a lot of character to it.

[@sime1071]

I actually liked Catradora and the character development that Catra had, but I should admit that wasn't perfect. Maybe if it had a longer development i could work better. Maybe if they started her redeption arc earlier or made an arc where she have to gain the trust of the princesses (especially Scorpia) could make her arc more satisfying.

[@seiyoutscreator104]

I think one of the main issue that older fans and content creators have to realize is that if something is aimed at a younger audience, the themes shouldn't glorify immoral actions. Children shouldn't grow up assuming these traits are desirable to have with their partner and it's harder for children to understand the difference between fiction and reality with that. As a child when I watched Fairly Oddparents, so much misogynistic flew over my head that I caught several years back about how harsh Cosmo acted toward Wanda or Timmy's parents portrayed this thought that when you get married to a woman, they will be needy, demanding, and make you regret putting a ring on their finger. I use to find that ammusing and thought it was normal. I thought I would end up as a wife that would be seen that way too. It was not the right way of thinking and although it wasn't meant to be taken seriously, it still painted a false picture for myself back then. Gay rep should be portrayed healthily and normal for younger peers. Thye need something to look up without those underlying tones of abuse and/or overall hate in a relationship.

[@simonlego01]

Question Lily, do you have any example of gay male couples in animation? When gay couples in animation are brought up its most often female couples, off the top of my head the only male couples I remember are the ones in gravity falls and she-ra but both are just background and the only one who is a main character I remember is Benson from Kipo. Most mayor couples and near all that I have seen in this video are lesbian. Or maybe I have just not found them. EDIT: Seeing multiple mentions of kipo and dead en paranormal park. Both shows are nice and good for representation but I allready mentioned kipo in my original comment, replied to someone allready about paranormal park and it's only two shows. The only new one someone mentioned is mission hill which I checked which was great.

[@snivybomb1909]

I have noticed a trend that are animated shows often have more lesbian representation. Meanwhile, shows that aren't animated often have more gay representation. However in both cases it is still often lacking. I honestly can't name an animated show with a main character that is a man that loves other men.

[@ludekmaly3900]

Its a shit trait in animation that can be pinpointed in multiple reasons, making lesbians gives you double the representation points whatever that's worth. lesbians are fetishized as fuck and male/male romance is thought off as inherently sexual and not pg and emotional enough by people. we all know those preconceived notions are bullshit but creators who managed to be public often relegate it to one of those. Stevenson could for example make a m/m character pairing,but instead fetishised lesbians. so it's alike to that.

[@screamingwhales4031]

in dead end paranormal park there’s a main mlm romance!! the mc is also a trans man

[@simonlego01]

@@screamingwhales4031 Oh yhea, love the show and love the representation but they don't become a couple until the end

[@screamingwhales4031]

@@simonlego01 very true, i know the producers are hoping for a s2 but it still is a slowburn.

[@reapergrimm8]

I'm the first to admit that I am too socially maladjusted to get into a romantic relationship with anyone. But even with my various problems, I can tell that glorifying violence in a romantic relationship from any form of media is not the way to go about it. If a romantic relationship is toxic and violently abusive, it should be used as an example of what not to do and that someone from that relationship finds a support system that helps them break off from the toxic relationship. Case in point, Harlivy > Jokerley.

[@thewikiddreamer]

Hey, Lily? You might wanna check out the latest episode of Film Theory talking about Elmo, Sesame Street and the DECADES LONG gaslighting in the form of Zoe & Rocco that has had an effect on generations of children and creators. I'm starting to see a corollary between the acceptance of enemies to lovers without accountability and the blind eye it turns to the realities of their victims and consequences. I'm SO GD happy that this subject is finally, oh dear sweet mother of fudge, FINALLY getting discussed more. For all the crap it gets, I'm glad Steven Universe exists as it does: it serves as a reminder of how NOT to make something TOO personal public.

[@johnwebb2736]

Hey I saw that episode too, I hadn’t watched a lot of Sesame Street, as a kid, I honestly couldn’t believe something like that would air on a children’s network without anyone working on it realizing how messed up it is to let a kid bully another kid because you don’t wanna crush the bully’s imagination.

[@thewikiddreamer]

@@johnwebb2736 ah yes, the birth of the participation trophy.

[@SamCR97]

This really helps put into words what I've always hated about the "x walked so y could run" comments. It's a way to sidestep any criticism by saying, oh even if it sucks, it's still important, you can't ignore it.

[@callumparker7737]

Going to the reference of The Nanny and Fran and Maxwell actually getting together before the show ended (I’m a huge The Nanny fan), is that it gave the characters more to work with in ways we haven’t seen them before. Having them actually get together, then engaged and married and see how they behave when the relationship is changed gave them new dimensions to work with and we got to see them play out without the characters feeling like different people. It even acted as a plot point when Fran was the one giving Niles advice on how to confess to C.C. (Fran and Niles are friend goals). It’s something I wish we got to see more of in stories. A lot of writers treat romance as the end result of a character arc instead of the gold mine of character development and interactions they can bring out if done right. Long rant, loved the video, can’t wait for the next one!

[@royalteaanimations]

Oh boy, another Catradora compilation?! My monkey brain is pleased

[@reneevandyck7017]

I want everyone to stop and think about, what if these relationships were straight? Some of them be totally screwed up, right? part of the problem is that the gay relationships are getting put under a lens, which amplifies the good, and the bad. when I saw she-ra I had spoiled it for myself, so I already knew Catra and Adora were going to get together, and the whole time I'm watching the show, I'm wondering, how? Meanwhile I can't stop smiling whenever I see Lumity because it's cute and casual and is A HEALTHY FREAKING RELATIONSHIP. Everyone's too busy focusing on how gay Lumity is to realize how good of an actual relationship it is. Part of the problem is how romance is written in general. Not just the gay ones.

[@thepoetjean]

I felt this whole video, oof! I get similar nonsense in the writing sphere (which I won't even touch right now as I'm on a deadline), but and I do believe that LGBT+ media should be like a reference library than one end-all-be-all source, cuz that's not what media is meant to be. It interacts with the world around it!

[@7OwlsWithALaptop]

With all the X walled sp Y could run iterations the next show is gonna be going at Mach 10 lol.

[@edalynclawthorne5877]

About the Nanny… people really complained that Max and Fran getting together was “too early?”, the fuck? The series goes out of its way to remind you how long they’ve not gotten together. We had 4 years of “Miss Fine!” And only when that changed did it get really good. Max’s getting used to saying “Fran”, the proposal being soo fucking cute and the banter leading up to the wedding was the best. Max talking to Sara in the theatre and then in his office Pre proposal and Pre wedding was soo amazing and wholesome. And even after the wedding, Fran’s entire pregnancy arc was great. The struggle having kids, the passion she had wanting kids. It was peak. Fuck, Fran and Max getting together is the only reason why my favourite episode - - and what I’d argue is the best episode got to happen; Sara’s Parents. The scene where they talk about how much Fran cares for Sara and values her as a part of the kid’s lives as well as her own love and desire to adopt the kids, it brought me to tears. Fans are fucking blind.

[@Topdoggie7]

Thiiiiis.

[@lexxblep-groundzero1369]

Motherfucker catradora does not walk A fucking lays there crying to itself wondering why it can't be as good as other ships I love Korasami because I just like the fact that both of the protagonists are fucking hot. And I do see the subtle hints that desperate lesbians will try to point out to say why they work. I hear you desperate lesbians. And I accept you even though you're slightly pathetic. Lumity is the best ship It's the best LGBTQ IA plus ship it's absolutely fantastic and honestly I love it Even though Amity and luz have some issues they're the first gay relationship that we actually get to see go on after it happens It's not a relationship where we see at the end of the show and then boom the show's over We actually get to see it faster them actually get along and talk to each other as girlfriends It also shows that showrunners are actually able to fucking do this No addressing Garnet I love garnet she's not my favorite gem but I do love her a lot but the only issue with garnet is that she is vague whenever comes down to her as an LGBT concept Yes she is the relationship between two essentially just women. But they work around this by the fact that she is a character herself They don't have to shove the relationship in your face cuz you're Just expected to accept that Garnet is the gay relationship you're getting You're not actually going to get the catharsis of seeing two girls being together and being romantic You're just having a character shoved in your face and saying "HERE YOU GO IT'S GAY IT'S GAY IT'S GAY" Yeah it's gay But it's gay and the worst way It's gay on a technicality. Garnet I love you but garnet is no worse than having two people of the same sex constantly looking at each other in blushing with nothing romantic actually happening between them. Garnet is a representation of a lesbian relationship That's good but the fact that we don't see Ruby and Sapphire enough to actually relish in the fact that they're in love means that this LGBT representation is ultimately worthless! So if I were to give a rating 1. Lumity 2. Korasami 3. Garnet 4. Catradora 5. Klance (I'm kidding This relationship has a myriad of different issues with it 7-7)

[@Ryukuro]

I'm not entirely sure where it is, but there was a study that showed that when someone is wrong, it's interpreted as being painful. That and you touched on this in a previous video, that the mind has layers of layers of defenses against facing the truth, that something they like isn't that good. Sometime it's hard for me to analyze the things I watch, mainly because I don't think about shoes that way.

[@karenroque3583]

God you really have a knack for discussing things about modern shows and fandoms that I’ve been having real issues with, but didn’t feel like it was really my place to bring up because I knew it wouldn’t be received very well so I just let it sit in my stomach like an uncomfortable bubble of gas that just leaves me frustrated with how these stories with some very real problems get applauded for choices that seem to be good ideas but are executed so poorly that it makes you feel like a clown for letting yourself get so invested in this piece of media in the first place. (Wow talk about a run-on sentence) Truth is I really miss how much I initially enjoyed these shows, how much fun I had, and how much hope I had for them. But they really are just another TV show that had some really talented people working for them that will hopefully move on to work with more competent creators. And it’s not like they were entirely without merit, it’s just that they often weren’t given the respect they deserve. And there will be other shows that will do things so much better that our standards will no longer have to be in hell to appreciate them.

[@theironraven5502]

Dummy thicc Josef Mengele is something I'm never going to forget lmao

[@tonypraf8641]

7:48 That gag was fucking hilarious

[@bleakautomaton4808]

I like Undertale, it's fandom has some issues (whose doesn't these days...) but the game itself is good and also had nice gay rep in it. For anyone asking - Captain Undyne and Dr. Alphys. People have had their criticisms of it yet overall it's very positive and gets wholesome in the free ending. I still wouldn't pretend that it was 'the first of its kind OMG you guys!' As something also nice, let's all come together to mention some other good games that had positive rep using the baseline 'crap' as Last of Us Part 2 (screw that awful rep I swear) as a cleanser from how toxic games discourse is often. What in-game gay rep (let's not count fan-ships right now) did you find enjoyable? 🙂

[@MusicKat217]

Don't forget all of the nonbinary characters!! Most of which aren't even the monsters! There are a handful of enby monsters, but they aren't enby BECAUSE they aren't human yknow? Cuz most of the characters aren't!

[@bleakautomaton4808]

@@MusicKat217 You are right, Frisk (and Chara I think) are referred to in they/them and that's the player character.

[@Misteri0123]

15:14 "Adora and Glimmer are f*cking ADORAble"

[@cookies9236]

I just wanna thank you for not using the Q word. It’s not a word I like and I hate that a lot of people insist on using it for us. I’m not sure what it’s like everywhere, but in the south it’s still said either in it’s accurate definition or as an insult. I can tell you that the people using as an insult aren’t going to listen, and it’s not their only insult. (One of my own family members calls us “things” and don’t consider LGBTQ+ people… well, people.)(I am not out to that family member, btw) TLDR: thanks for not using the Q slur :)

[@Lily_Orchard]

I've been vocally against the Q slur for a long time.

[@lethalinjection145]

I really wish we had more actual mlm rep ;-; ("main character's best friend has two dads" isn't good enough before anyone brings up shera or toh) but I guess that could partially be a monkey's paw wish Who knows. Maybe a director/writer who has the same vision as me will be able to learn from all the lesbian stuff here and try to keep away from the negatives

[@ladybuglove_cosplays8413]

I like all of She-ra except for Catradora. When I watched it the relationship seemed abusive to me and I thought it was just me. Now I realize it was just that.

[@SindianStar]

Great video! Yes please let's us be allowed to have adult conversations without throwing hissy fits! I myself have been trying to talk more openly and listen to others more, mostly because a family member of mine made me realized I been arguing in a toxic way, because they argue that way and I suddenly has like "Holy shit do I sound like that?!" and made me more open to listening to others and not get super defensive about stuff. I still fail sometimes but I am trying to be better at talking about stuff like this.

[@sollmoll]

How much % of Xeanort is Lily at right now? Hmmmm I'd say at least 30% On a more serious note, I wholeheartedly agree on the points you make in this video. The sad truth is that most fandoms are and will always be an escape for a lot of people especially those of the LGBT community, and this when you make a shelter when someone tells you that is does have structural flaws you might become upset with the person telling you that instead of you know... The person making those flaws

[@Lily_Orchard]

Me? I'm already HALF Xehanort!

[@ashleylightheart126]

Oh good, I thought I was the crazy one who saw Catra X Adora as out of nowhere because the whole thing felt so toxic

[@YaBoiiMarz]

I wanted to mention your point about people criticizing shows for doing romance before the finale as Im a person who does love a good story of people getting together but am much more into the stupid and sometimes good couple drama. So personally I love it when shows get characters together before the finale as i want to see how they would work as a couple and why they work compared to others. Im not saying ignore the story of how they got together (if they have one) but I dont wanna see just a finale kiss then scene it feels like i was drug along and got none of the good parts.

[@ShadowDOA]

6teen didn't air in the US? That's a news to me because I remember watching every episode before it got cancelled

[@Lily_Orchard]

The episode with the gay girl didn't sit in the US

[@kaykay8855]

@@Lily_Orchard I remember that episode, I had to watch it online.

[@Troleandocreyentes]

I so rare to see this kind of viewpoint in KZbin.

[@Kattlarv]

"It's good ol' conservative boomer love! If you don't beat your spouse, do you ACTUALLY care about her?!" /S

[@adriananabananana3021]

one of my favorite thing about toh is that the romance is casual and more realistic (I literally am amity with my crushes, tomato face and everything). it is also a better example for "THE CHILDREN!!!!!!!" when you have healthy lgbtq2s+ relationships rather than the standard enemies 'kiss at the end'.

[@mayday2237]

Eyyyyy saw you put up "Stop Hibari Kun!" I'm glad to see it get recognition in mainstream discourse

[@Costa_Kingdom]

This Is why I always fucking hate ships like bakugou x deku and bosha x willow ,its not romantic to ship someone with their abuser.

[@mecoolguy3780]

Bro I learend a lot. Thanks, lilly!

[@dashietheytpproductions2521]

Just saying food wars did the enemies to lovers trope much better because, one it wasn’t toxic, two other parties had differnet views that clash but could find a middle ground, and lastly it was a show set in a cooking school, not a high fantasy or action, but still had the intensity one. Erina is an elite chef who is very much a perfectionist and she sees Soma as lower class chef who keeps annoying her. Meanwhile soma is a very friendly but competive guy, and he wants erina to say someday that his food is delicious. I guess the term would be rivals to friends to lovers but still… I think it works better in that kind of show because while the stakes are her high, it’s not a world ending or war… it’s a culinary high school that deals with a change of leadership. Owl house also did it well because of how well we seen amity change for the better and that in turn made it a rivalry with Luz, to a friendship, to a romance There is a way to make enemies to lovers work…. But it’s more of a miracle if it’s done right these days

[@skeletonsinscarves3965]

I'm still recovering from dummy thicc josef mengele 🤣🤣🤣

[@lukenewton3625]

17:05 Oh hey, "Stop! Hibari-kun" is there. That's unexpected but kind of neat.

[@gerardhearst8962]

10:40 “it’s an older reference sir but it still checks out”

[@algabirdsen9599]

man, this whole time i thought i was crazy for "not seeing it" when I watched she-ra, but when you talked about the stuff leading up to catra and adora getting together it made me realize there was a reason for that

[@autumn-vl5ez]

Fact is if he had gone for Glimmer and Adora and made Catra as the abusive ex she is, I would have actually watched She-Ra. Lol.

[@melissaingoldsby8286]

Your glass of Water segments have been giving me stress relief and I love the way this discourse goes on so smoothly. A show that represents LGBTQ properly is Ok KO! Let’s be heroes. I’d love to hear your thoughts on that

[@andrerodney454]

The song "fire on fire" has more gay content than more of these shows, lmao.

[@Hugh_jazz_069]

I won't be surprised when lily becomes a politician

[@Lily_Orchard]

I already have a job

[@littlelotus4572]

When people don’t understand the word wholesome to the point their calling hate sex wholesome

[@nottheredelilah3757]

i honestly thought glimmer was adora's love interest until my sister told me catradora was endgame... shit had me disappointed to put it mildly

[@spencersholden]

3:40 oh my gosh. I loved that episode so much!

[@lunami3178]

I'm still very salty over Glimmer and Adora not ending up together

[@camotophat]

I hadn't heard about Voyager being misery porn before the execs stepped in. Would love to hear your thoughts on that little chestnut.

[@PratzStrike]

of COURSE you quoted Xemnas, you incorrigible Kingdom Hearts stan. That being said, yes, to all of this. I wait patiently for the day when people can say 'Steven Universe was trash and we have so much better now.'

[@squitterhyena652]

16 did air in the US on Cartoon network. It counts I think!