We’re Not Supposed to Do It Like This!

[@tw2210]

Fantastic, a new Ben Vallack keyboard video! Thanks Ben.

[@Johnnyvtg]

Great video! I switched to a ferris sweep around a year ago and aside from the obvious benefit of having no pain (which I used to and have A LOT), I love that I literally never have to look down at my keys to find stuff because I designed the keymap myself so I know where everything is.

[@BenVallack]

Thanks!

[@codetothemoon]

Would love to hear your thoughts on CharaChorder.

[@haydenflinner]

I tried the CharaChorder Lite and found it kinda sucked. Main CharaChorder is just too much investment for too little return. Voice dictation and AI IDE integration is too good nowadays for it to be worth it.

[@rudavko]

First frame as a thumbnail. One of the biggest flexes.

[@freescape08]

Mohit be a flex these days, I just see it as tradition.

[@pez1870]

check again

[@What-ez6im]

have you tried master forge or chara chorder? supposedly it completly eliminates 90% of finger travel.

[@davek53]

Am I first? Lol :D love your content since Moonlander videos. You inspired me to build my own split keyboard and I am on a process right now. Thanks Ben!

[@BenVallack]

Yep!

[@davek53]

@@BenVallack Ben, during your EDC videos about things that you carry in your pockets, I wondered if you even carry a phone (because I use flashlight on mine a lot), or you ditched it completely for better solution. Would it be interesting topic for a video? ;-)

[@BenVallack]

@@davek53 Very interesting you said that! I'm reading Digital Minimalism at the moment and am very seriously exploring massive reduction of the role of smartphone/smartwatches as EDC items. I've actually sold my Apple Watch! I'll probably keep the iPhone but the way I use it is looking to be drastically changed and reduced.

[@davek53]

@@BenVallack Wow, what a change! I'm looking forward to more info to come. That book lies on my shelf to be read as well, what a coincidence :D I am actually using my watches mainly as countdown timer, alarm clock and little personal flashlight in the early morning and night (not to wake up others in the room) and to make calls. But smart watch really eased my life so I really use my phone less. Moreover I have really old phone now, so it is not pleasant any more to use it for anything other than purely necessary actions... :D

[@azaeldrm]

@@BenVallack Who's the author of this book? I'd love to read it!

[@Broxerlol]

Also a developer. Don't have RSI but decided to try out split keyboards with a voyager. I've had it about a week now and while I've gotten my normal typing speed back up to normal it's been extra difficult to get the symbols down.

[@davidgeren8252]

One of the things that helped me with symbols was to not move them around too much; and when I do, use logic and mnemonics to help make their new position easier to adopt. I use QWERTY and very nearly duped the layout of the alphanumerics and traditional symbols. While I opted for the EZ, my basic principles still apply to a board like the Voyager. Take a gander at my layer 1 (layer 0 is set up to overcome transparency issues with my system and make the layout adaptable to other OSs). I moved brackets to 9 and 0 on the keypad layer (#3). That means (, [, { and ), ], } are all on the same two keys just holding different keys with my left so my right hand can tap 9 or 0. I also moved a couple of others around, but they are either moved to a related key (/ and \ are neighbors, for example) or very close to their mundane QWERTY location. I also moved back tick to where mundane boards usually put the caps lock to mirror 'right pinky is single quote' as 'left pinky is backtick' for template literals. My primary layout principle is 'thumbs tap/hold for MO layers plus HRM.' With a couple of minor exceptions, that allows one hand to do any and all holding while the other hand taps the target key modded or not. For example, if I want to ⌘→, I hold left thumb on space, hold left index on F, and tap L with my right ring. Plus, one-hand holds mean I never get lost in my layers, I just let go of all keys and my board [usually] returns to my "base" layer 1 on its own. It only doesn't return automatically if use one of the two new layer-lock keys for keypad and nav-cluster layers. Layer 1: configure.zsa.io/ergodox-ez/layouts/ywevz/latest/1 Hope that helps. SSL.

[@Kpil3]

Love the video! Thanks for all the ideas you've shared here. The forearm thing you mentioned actually helped me fix my RSI issues. I see very few people talking about it but it's really effective.

[@RenbroNL]

When I got my Corne the main downside I noticed really fast is that the pinky stagger is just too mild to stay completely straight with your hands. At 7:55 you identify this as well. It's probably the only reason I can't fully recommend the Voyager. That's why I'm kind of surprised as well that you are using it now.

[@slowjocrow6451]

Doesn't he say because the board is tilted it overcomes that issue?

[@RenbroNL]

@@slowjocrow6451 That's not what I get out of it. No amount of tilting is going to fix a pinky column that is off anyway. You have to do some hand twisting for that. Or I guess use the finger length trick Ben is describing. But as far as I can see having the column stagger match you finger length is most ideal.

[@TheFinnito]

Hey Ben, thanks! Very informative, as always. Just changed to a new layout because of your last video. I already learned the complete homerow and two top row keys. Feels very good and I am looking forward to finish learning that layout. I have built a custom splitkeyboard with a 3*6 layout + 3 thump key per side. It has a angled top row which for me means almost no wrist movement when using the top row. I would love a video on hrm, layers, keycombos etc. for use with special chars, numbers, navigation etc. I use a numpad on a nother layer and will be adding keys for index, middle and ring finger to be able to map a full numpad for the left halve in the next version of that keyboard. I am using a lot of cad software and a numpad just works best for me. But i am still thinking how to best organize my other layers...

[@IanGlendinning]

I love these videos ! This seems really comfortable!!

[@bees7604]

Great intro to the key concerns of ergonomics in typing! I want to add, I think the biggest difference comes from split keyboards, then navigation layers that let you have all sorts of shortcut keys and modifiers in the usual letter positions, and then moving away from QWERTY. Having a new layout like Recurva or Canary is the flashiest change, but it's also the hardest to get used to, and imo the least effective (though of course, that's relative).

[@apirkle]

I just pulled out my Corne 36 LP that I put together back in January after watching some of your previous videos. I still love the idea of it, but sadly the Corne has been collecting dust for a while as I didn't push past the initial learning curve. I also need to 3D print a case for it. I finally have some free time to experiment with practice and layouts (currently it's set up with QWERTY), and was thinking "what was that layout that Ben mentioned recently?" Pulled up KZbin and this new video was at the top of the recommendations. Perfect timing!

[@inevespace]

Concentrate first on modifiers and reasonable position of backspace and arrows (navigation layer). It will give you more benefits for short learning time. Mess with letter layout later.

[@Kawalzki]

And if all else fails. If you still don't like it Donations to the dreamers fund are welcome lol 😅

[@knightrider585]

Love your videos. I put together my own "unibody split planck" style keyboard through experimenting with the Ferris and other builds. I can't see ever moving much beyond where I am now (like I still use Qwerty), but your ideas have been really useful. Thanks.

[@hypersonicpiano6120]

Would love to see your take on the Svalboard - it really does seem like the ultimate peripheral (especially the trackball variant) P.S. currently designing a second PCB keyboard based on your Erogen tutorials - what an excellent resource!

[@pyjamads]

Or potentially the CharaChorder

[@PaperbagWriter]

Great video as always. Recently got the voyager and it has simply been amazing. Next step tenting! Not sure I'll ever be able to change layout though...

[@ErmandDurro]

As always great content. I really liked the video and all the 5 steps that you mentioned. Thank you! I am using split keyboard for 3 years now only because of you 😃

[@ShuningLiuAtPlay]

You should try a Svalboard

[@sirepicjack]

would love to see a svalboard review!

[@miguelibars1568]

Another great video about ergonomics. But I've got to say.. pronation is not an issue anymore with tented split keyboards *until* you reach for the trackpad. Me myself struggled (I actually felt pain at the end of the day) switching back and forth between the tented split (Iris in my case) and the flat surface of the trackpad (mine is placed between the two halves). Some people invert it so the slope is faced towards you but that doesn't have to do with forearm pronation but rather with wrist rotation. I finally decided to buy a 3d printed tented trackpad mount that I found in Etsy I think although the angle is fixed (you can choose between three different angles at the time of the buy if I remember correctly). Btw, why meh over hyper? I'm curious

[@BenVallack]

Meh with one thumb, add cmd with the other thumb to get hyper if needed. 😀

[@noahblack2527]

Ben, I have been heavily researching split ergonomic keyboards recently to decide which one I want to try. I am debating between the glove80 and the voyager. My concern with choosing the voyager is how few keys there are and getting used to layers. Would be very interested in a video about how you set up the layers on your voyager! Thanks!

[@BenVallack]

Yeah home row holds can be a challenge - ultimately I'm still using them as I don't like the idea of my thumbs moving around loads either. Mainly with home row holds is you have to be prepared to hold them to get into the other layer but the key thing to note is you don't need to hold them before you hit your chosen key - the board waits to see which key to output based on the hold duration, so as long as you hold the hold key for long enough in total you'll get the hold version even if you you fast roll into it.

[@NicleT]

My thought about positions is whatever the one you choose, there always be some repercussions on your body structure. Maybe the real trick - after you find the most comfortable posture for yourself as a baseline - is to have it non-static. For example, when you're waking in a field, you continually have to adapt, to micro-correct your posture to the continually changing surface under your feet, which lead to a better strength, flexibility and longevity. I don't know how this can be done in a work position, but maybe it could help if all of this setup was in slight motions to avoid stiffness and long time sclerosis.

[@petertcormack3570]

excellent video; thank you so much! On the subject of not moving your fingers too much, what are your thoughts on the charachorder where you don't have to move your fingers from their home keys at all?

[@lenient1438]

First reaction.. "Oh he's standing! Cool!" Then I saw... "Oh no, he's walking on the treadmill!! Good lord! Amazing."

[@justinbehnke8724]

I may have missed it but is there a mouse or trackpad aspect to this? I have been using my MacBook pro without any ad ons for 2 years and I’m still feeling pretty good. But i find having the track pad by the keys to be effective

[@BenVallack]

Yeah I have a trackpad to the right of the right half of the board. You can see it in some of the shots. What's funny is how you can see the stain on the wood where my ring and little finger rest for stability while using it.

[@encapsulatio]

@@BenVallack Well why did you not include that info in this video, also you did not say anything about the TV or projector you use. What's the point of making a video if you're not gonna ACTUALLY mention all aspects?

[@BenVallack]

@@encapsulatio This video is about keyboards. Lots of vids on other aspects of computer ergonomics on the channel.

[@Juliano-v]

I bought a moonlander after watching your videos, but after one year i'm still struggling to find my dream layout, and that is because i need to use the keyboard to type (in portuguese and english), and use to programming, and to use other softwares. I gave up from my journey to change from QWERTY since every software usually realies on the "common" shortcuts, and it's a hell to configure all along. I'm just trying to improve my current layout, but it's nice to see your ideias

[@Rocket33r]

My only issue with optimizing around a keyboard is that it creates a suboptimal mouse hand position. So I guess it depends where your workflow preference lies. I agree that it's probably better to optimize around just an optimal keyboard position and to use macros etc as much as possible, but it's not always that straightforward to implement something like that or mouse usage may be required. The issue is, say you have a static setup, and you want something that is tented and at the right shoulder width, then you would have to step outside of that optimum to use a mouse (in my case a Logitech MX Ergo, which is sort of the equivalent of a tented keyboard). I guess it's still fairly ergonomic though since you are probably within a reasonable range as far as shoulder position goes and you can reposition slightly if you just want to focus on typing or the mouse.

[@astonished4328]

Can you try out the cc2 or the master forge?

[@MarigoldAW]

Hey Ben watched a lot of your keyboard videos and how you've explored many different layouts and configurations. I was wondering if you would give the "Charachorder" a shot. It is a "keyboard" that uses levers similar to the old datahand but much more compact and modern. It would be awesome to see you give it a shot and get your thoughts on it.

[@valentinrault479]

Thank you for another great video, I would like to hear which kind of switches are you using? I would be interested to hear about it, I don't know if it is better with low force switches, especially once setting up the keyboard vertically

[@BenVallack]

I've flip-flopped on this - started with a preference for light switches, then ended up seeing the benefit of a heavier switch to encourage a faster, more positive strike, but now I have a really wobbly setup (hopefully temporary! details in future vid!) it makes sense to have a lighter switch again!

[@valentinrault479]

Thank you, I am looking forward to the future viden then?

[@marcin.sobocinski]

Just an idea.. maybe a video on the force to press keys on the mechanical keyboards... I have Voyager and just recently switched from Linear Red switches for quietness.... to Ambient Silent Twilight switches. I struggle a lot with errors now. I don't know why.. maybe it's because of the actuation force.... I couldn't stand the metalic noise Regular Red switches do in Voyager, but now I am thinking on going back to them from the Twillights ...

[@zacke6]

amazing work

[@BenVallack]

Thanks 😄

[@chesslara6971]

Why not use a svalboard and reduce key travel even more?

[@erichanson5628]

Brilliant video Ben!

[@RoskaNegatiivinen]

It would be interesting to see your opinion on the charachorder keyboard as it eliminates finger movement almost entirely.

[@sirepicjack]

what do you think about a keyboard shaped like a gamepad? Holding a ps5 controller feels more comfortable to me, than using a keyboard. For input maybe something like characorder sticks or a combination of sticks and buttons? At least I think it's an interesting idea when it comes to a portable input device, but maybe not optimal for being at your desk

[@davek53]

Cool Idea! I wonder if you could use all your fingers for typing or some would be "reserved" for holding the device itself (if it would've not be mounted to table or smth), also it might get too bulky for easy transportation. Best way to find it is build it... :D

[@DavidJones-rg2rb]

I get RSI from gamepads too :( It's a neat idea though, but difficult to fit keys on every finger and avoid accidental presses on something you are holding in space. I think you'd need to add more buttons on both sides and keep using with just thumbs and index, like a split Blackberry keyboard.

[@inevespace]

Researchers of HID experimented with such things probably since beginning of 90s. I have seen few articles in wiki about such designs, but don't remember names of devices. One of them was in shape of twisted tube, and you can keep it by base of fingers, but keep tips independently moving.

[@ytrewq1992]

After experimenting and building for years, why did you end up using the voyager?

[@JoshuaPiasecki]

Ben, how did you get your home row layer switching keys to be assignable in the destination layer? if i set a layer switch on a key in Oryx, that key is marked as disabled and i cannot give it a value. did you assign this in QMK?

[@BenVallack]

If you go into Settings > Holding you can enable that feature.

[@drewfowler2408]

Very helpful. You mentioned that you stand and walk only two hours a day, what does your sitting situation look like then?

[@BenVallack]

I actually mix it between sitting, standing and walking. The sitting is a mix of an ipad on a beanbag on the sofa or just sat very conventionally at a table. Mostly it's just standing on the treadmill though.

[@drewfowler2408]

@@BenVallack Also, how do you find programming with a trackpad?

[@PW060284]

Have you tried AR virtual display glasses? They project a 100+ in display in the middle 120 deg of your vision and follow your head They are really meant more for media consumption but I wonder how they would fare in the productivity use case

[@BenVallack]

I think they could be very interesting - no budget for such things at the moment but would gladly test a freebie!

[@PW060284]

@@BenVallack you don't have to go all out and buy the apple vision pros which costs in the thousands. A pair of viture you might be able to get under $400 on sale. Just speculating that most people don't have a luxury/convenience of slapping a large screen tv in front of their treadmill AND glasses are fixated on your head for more vigorous walking/jogging (though I understand that the light walking is just a proxy for standing and is only there to fix varicose veins) Do you think your setup works with a manual treadmill that is not motorized? Or why not try a standing desk with a balance board to constantly shift your weight around?

[@jammies701]

Nice vid mate

[@alexandermanson8300]

can u give a progress update on your graphite journey , how is it at speed?

[@BenVallack]

Feeling very good at speed - I have a slight setback at the moment as my new rig is a bit wobbly for now (video coming soon as to why!).

[@alexandermanson8300]

@@BenVallack wow cant wait m8, so in this interim period do u use the Ferris sweep on ur lap(ie wearing the keyboard like you have before)? also i wonder if the sweep is like your go to keyboard for travelling

[@oscardiggs246]

I find that when I'm looking for the answer to a problem, there are a lot of different "AHA!" moments that add up to the solution. I've been fighting with pain in my right wrist for a long time. I've got several split ergo keyboards that are each just fantastic and they've solved the other pains, but the right wrist remains an issue. I can tell that hover-typing will help, but I haven't been able to completely make it work. When you explained why hanging the forearms worked for you, I could envision what it would mean for my wrist, and the lightbulb went off in my head. Thanks very much for this video. It came at the exact right time to show me a path forward. I see that you're using a trackpad. Have you done a video about your journey to using a trackpad? I'm still trying to figure out the best solution for pointing devices, since I'm sure that's the final 20% of my pain. Thanks again for this video.

[@BenVallack]

Really glad to read this. Yeah I've always been pretty happy with the trackpad - I've also used trackballs and been happy with those too. A vertical mouse is another option I've heard good things about.

[@inevespace]

I got pain as soon as I started to use split and no pain when switch back to usual keyboard. Now I don't have pain with split keyboard. The trick is that it is not about keyboard, but habit how you move and keep hands. I kept hands in good position naturally on conventional laptop boards. It took probably same amount of time as learning new layout to develop proper habits with split keyboard.

[@lian1238]

Just ordered dygma raise 2. Should I order zsa voyager too?

[@nickgoogle4525]

Both are not the best option. Buy a Lily ;-)

[@Nina-cd2eh]

@@nickgoogle4525 I absolutely hate thumb keys being so close under the palm. Extending the thumb feels much less tiring than curling it in.

[@nickgoogle4525]

@@Nina-cd2eh I want my thumb neither to need to curl under the palm, nor to extend it, but just place it where it falls. A wider thumber key can be very beneficial for that. On my Lily I have a 1.75u thumb key on the middle position for that reason.

[@Nina-cd2eh]

@@nickgoogle4525 Well that's for one key obviously, but a second or third key, I could never have it inwards like the cluster in Lily. Even with the Kyria I'd only use two of the thumb keys. A keyboard with at least two thumb keys would be the minimum for me, and the voyager fits me better that other similar boards I see out there.

[@nickgoogle4525]

@@Nina-cd2eh I see, I do not like the Kyria thumb position as well. For me the Voyager does not work, because the inner thumb is a tad too far outside and\ or should be wider and for sure with a convex keycap. Concave for the thumb is very limiting and often not comfortable. But great when the Voyager fits for you. Different hand sizes and preferences...

[@MattyPS]

Have you tried the Hands Down layout?

[@PalashBackup]

I would gladly watch the same video presented differently. I am relatively new to split keyboard scene, and I really love to hear from someone who really pushes the boundary. Thanks Ben.

[@paxcoder]

Did you try a key well?

[@BenVallack]

Not yet :)

[@DavidAguileraMoncusi]

What's that?

[@DarthImriel]

@@BenVallack You should definitely check out the Glove 80. I have a feeling you'd really like it.

[@paxcoder]

@@DavidAguileraMoncusi When the board is concave instead of flat, making keys in non-home rows more easily reachable I guess.

[@DavidAguileraMoncusi]

@@paxcoder thanks, mate

[@mvargasmoran]

I would buy the ZSA Voyager if it had a stronger stagger for the P column, that damn column is a deal breaker for me.

[@BenVallack]

Yeah it does force the angle trick I discuss in the video - I actually don't mind it - but then I didn't really mind using the Planck EZ either!

[@mvargasmoran]

@@BenVallack Lucky! I think that's just a hand size thing. I will love a Voyager Plus, or maybe a Voyager Minus LUL 🤣

[@covle9180]

I think these are all great tips, but a thing these ergonomics videos often fail to mention is that your body was never designed to be in be same position for so many hours. Ergonomics seems to be largely the theory of "how can i abuse my body as slowly as possible without taking the hint?" Don't sit at a desk for hours on end. Do physical exercise, touch grass, climb a tree, do yoga, animal flows, footie, dance salsa, whatever. Be good to your body and it'll be good to you.

[@BenVallack]

Got some great vids coming for you!!

[@Jusvidz]

every time i watch one of your videos i feel like im being given adhd

[@stefanhopfer3905]

Hi, congrats a ya work - its important! I've now started learning the 10-finger system for the fourth time - now I`m 60... This time it should and will work ,-)) Because I'm serious now, I've noticed what was and is wrong. (... the offset, the generally illogical arrangement, the distribution of frequent letters on immobile & weak fingers, on the wrong hand, the crippled posture (unsplit & wrong 3D-angles) the shoulder/neck tension .............................. So Inoticed your vids - ortholinear, finger length offset, thumb use - great, but I didn't “get” your spongy “positioning”, the cable solutions to the computer and between the keyboards - to me, that was suboptimal and it still in this Vid. I do my keyboard design the same way (or convex + possibly track-pad/trackball). However, I make myself a “double belt holster", that holds the boards in place, regardless of whether I'm sitting or standing. (So I can let my upper and lower arms and hands hang vertically downwards in a relaxed position (no need to pull my shoulders up, no bending of the lower arms and wrists, because that's unnatural again, against gravity...). (Bluetooth/WIFI = no tangled cables, EVERYTHING on and in front of the table is free(!) - for mobile using to (no spreading in Meetings on the table...); charging via Powerpac if required, or at home via USB, after use (batteries if necessary...) What do you think? Greetings from Vienna/Austria! (...we don`t have Kangaroos, gg) SH

[@ndudman8]

hAVE You seen the Dygma Raise... mine is on its way soon... and solves I think the tenting etc, perhaps you';ve seen it already they have a great yt channel.

[@danh5637]

Why not just get a charachorder?

[@midann]

I dont think it makes programming ergonomic

[@danh5637]

@ 🤷‍♂️

[@DragonMan-ql1zp]

Makes it impossible to program and also takes forever to relearn typing to use one

[@danh5637]

@@DragonMan-ql1zp not really. I can program about 6X faster than qwerty. It’s about 3X faster than regular steno which I used before. And then with live programming environments it gives you at least a 10X advantage on those still coding in VSCode and manual compilation or JIT flows. So I guess it’s what’s important to you or whomever hires you. For every 8 hour day with a normie I can get around 100hrs worth of output done. 🤷‍♂️

[@rmschindler144]

it’s gotta be a glove

[@ndudman8]

you can avoid those veins by having quality grass fed butter with plenty of real k2 to direct that calcium to the right places... and not in the veiens... WApf

[@BenVallack]

That's interesting! I actually eat a lot of organic grass fed dairy and beef and even desiccated grass fed beef organ supplements - maybe it is just to be expected due to the lower hand angle?!

[@ndudman8]

@@BenVallack If you check out "The Weston A Price Foundation" WAPF and the origional classic book from 1930's Dentice Weston A Price and his research and journey around the world find what healthy people actually ate, its really facinated, the Foundation lead by Sally Fallon and Dr Tomas Cowan and many others have done great work to further his work in promoting etc. There was something Price found common amoung all natives in quality animal fats and other things, best to read yourself, but your mention of those nasty vains is just the tip of the ice burg... so I'm sure you'll find it interesting... Personally I've been practicing engram, and really love what DygmaLabs are doing, very professional and impressive piece of kit they are making.

[@ndudman8]

Oh and they have space on the new keyboard to pogo-pin add on a trackball mouse down the road.

[@BenVallack]

Yeah I'm actually pretty sold on the importance of animal fats - I find what Paul Salendino has to say very interesting.

[@ndudman8]

@@BenVallack I don't know Paul, but I think most of the people that promote high colestral animals fats etc are partially inspired by the origional work from Dr Weston Price but often don't seem to promote share his classic and now non-copywrited book, but rather their own, I don't know if that applies to Paul, but Westons book open so much more especially how our children grow and avoid teeth braces, and don't get taller as each new sibling is born, or most of the childhood diseaes and degenerative deformaties etc. Really good read, perhaps you can tell, that it change my own life.

[@mortisiranitimati]

Top comments as defauld is stupid! KZbin should change it!

[@SatchmoBronson]

Seems like it would have been easier to just learn to type

[@nickgoogle4525]

You need to get some money from YT? More and more ad-videos with less and less real content. Your older videos are great. This one seems like the left thumb key (held) to me ;-)

[@BenVallack]

A 20 second sponsor spot seems to be a pretty sustainable format to me - I'm trying to ensure my videos appeal to a broad audience so I'm covering things in a digestible beginner-friendly way - I'm still going to do some more nerdy stuff as well though.

[@ndudman8]

I just add block, sorry to content creators who need the adds, but they are so unbearable... so personally I think people should put quality in place adds themselfs :)

[@azaeldrm]

@@BenVallack Continue with this format. I like the short ads. Man's gotta eat, and I appreciate these videos enough to sit through a simple ad that I know is paying directly to the channel owner. Keep it up!

[@nickgoogle4525]

@@azaeldrm I was not only talking about the ads, but the content being less informative and beginning to duplicate. IMO some of the remarks are also short sighted and do not consider the different ways a keyboard can be used in regards of different positioning.