Weapon Trait Tier List | Pathfinder 2nd Edition

[@emptyptr9401]

Double Barrel also has the benefit of allowing you to shoot twice in a row without reloading. There are also items that allow you to reload both with a single action once. I think Double Barrel grants you a lot of flexibility and adaptability.

[@lexchxn]

A tier, I say! A tier!

[@emptyptr9401]

@@lexchxn 💪💪

[@GreyGramarye]

Not to mention how great it is as an Investigator.

[@ConFusi0n]

Great analysis! It seems like a trait's relation to the power budget came up a lot, I wonder if it might be useful to rate them as "Fairly represented by power budget," "Undervalued by power budget," etc, although that might require a more mathematical analysis of weapon base cases and comparing similar weapons and stuff. 46:58 While there aren't monk weapons with forceful, the Mountain, Gorilla, and Stoked Flame stances give unarmed attacks with it, which are fun to use. :)

[@MrBakersdozen2020]

Just want to point out that you are one of my favorite new channels for pathfinder, a real up-and-coming talent! Keep up the great work!

[@Jon_East]

Just wanted to add a fun interaction with Jousting - it's of course a trait that is specifically made for Horse companions, but the one-handed aspect of it also lets it slip into the Ruffian Rogue's weapon limitations. Meaning it enables a pretty fun Ruffian Cavalier/Beastmaster/... Jousting Sneak Attacker (with Gang Up to enable permanent off-guard when mounted).

[@bokajon]

You're in my top 3 of PF2e youtubers! Keep up the awesome work - I love your videos and you have very sophisticated insight into the system imo!

[@Mega24fun]

Yay a Tier List. Those are my Favorite videos to watch. Maybe a Archetype Tier List in future?

[@twilight-2k]

I'd love to see that but there are just a few archetypes...

[@Coreyographed]

I'd be curious to see your tiering of weapon critical effects as well

[@thatmanfred]

One thing to note with BRACE: It doesn't just apply to the readied strike, but to all strikes until your next turn. So for high level fighters, combined with reach, you can really hand out some pain.

[@lewisdillingham4356]

What a fun video! Your insights are always so useful as a newcomer to PF2e

[@UncleGooby9847]

An interesting aspect of the two-hand trait that I've never seen discussed, is that they're often quite light for their damage die size. Bastard sword is 1 bulk while greatsword is 2 bulk, for example. This doesn't hold true for all cases, but it does for many. This alone bumps up two-hand and free-hand up a tier for me. A bulk saved might seem small, but that has huge potential. It could be tools, consumables, a casting staff, backup weapon or shield, loot capacity (spacious pouch is 1 bulk), anything really. You can do wonders with 1 bulk and a little preperation.

[@Emboarbof]

In my research, it doesn't seem like Bulk plays any part in a weapon's Power Budget

[@JonahPedersen-tz3uk]

Fatal doesn’t doesn’t always come up but when it does it can decisive. Pick for the win.

[@GoldenDaemonas]

ive just found this channel recently. really enjoy the effort and depth of each video.

[@kwagmeijer26]

I pick up a few Bolas as a grappler. flyby attackers showed up a few weeks ago, and I had the perfect item to knock them out of the sky.

[@peterb2245]

Shove also can force an opponent to use an action to move to get back in an attack position, thus burning a possible attack chance.

[@lexchxn]

While true, it's not usually worth spending your own Multiple Attack Penalty on, especially when you can just use the Step action to do the same thing as a successful Shove (provided enough space).

[@peterb2245]

@@lexchxn apologies, I should have clarified. I have a barb with guisarme and shove procs on crit. Yes, you are correct, I have found the ole 5 foot step to be super useful to force enemy loss of action and frustrate my gm.

[@SigurdBraathen]

Disarm: The bonus +1/2/3 you get from the weapon's fundamental runes is nice. Also you can wield a 2h and still be able to disarm. Your list is great, but I think I'd value these higher. Edit: I originally wrote this for both disarm and trip, but you've rated trip as A+, so who can complain? =) I am not intelligent enough / too low Pathfinder Warfare lore to fully understand the potency of Disarm. I am sort of confident it isn't terribly strong all by it self because it's pretty much the same to you if you don't disarm the big bad enemy and attacks you thrice, or, if you do disarm (even 'fail') and the big bad enemy uses one action to reapply its grip then attack you twice. Instead, I think it must be combined with other things that wastes the enemy's action, like magic (slow et al.) and stepping/moving away. E.g.: You disarm, strike then move away. The enemy interact to grip, step up to you and then strike you. You've reduced your damage output by roughly 66% (Disarm is an Attack, so your Strike has MAP 5 (or 4)) and you've reduced their damage output by ~33%. Is that a good deal? Maybe, depending on party composition.

[@snowsun538]

The reason disarm is worse than trip is not because the action that on is worse. The fact is there are much more enemies that don't have a weapon than enemies that are immune to crits. It's like poison: sure they can be really cool but like half the bestiary is immune. It is a cool option if you already use free-hand athletics but you shouldn't build around it.

[@StephanNeufang-yj5do]

I would rate ranged trip in A+ it is one of the few possibilities for Strenght based charakters to get flying enemies into their range.

[@The_Yukki]

That's an interesting read on reload action. I read that as effectively "you don't need to spend 2 more actions readjusting your grip just cause you stopped holding the gun/crossbow with both hands for a moment to reload it" So as I read it that line allows 2handed crossbow just got fired >action reload: >>let 1 hand go >>draw ammo >>reload >>Put that hand back on the weapon Instead of having to spend 2 more actions to let go and adjust again. 2handed crossbow just got fired >action let go >action reload: >>draw ammo >>Reload >action put hand back on weapon

[@Draxen1123]

Good news is it got clarified in the remaster with the rule on reloading; Switching your grip to free a hand and then to place your hands in the grip necessary to wield the weapon are both included in the actions you spend to reload a weapon. So if your two handed crossbow has reload one it only takes one action for the whole thing including regripping it.

[@elingpramuatmaja]

This is really useful for a beginner like me. Thank you!

[@BobHerzog1962]

Agile is also a solid trait for the 2nd weapon when you go double slice build.

[@SigurdBraathen]

This is the best breakdown of weapons I've seen. Still, I have some preferences. I'd love to see a study on how a few of the more potent traits work with different classes / feats / conditions / party tactics (spells?) / monsters? I'm thinking e.g. "Deadly scales with your bonuses to attack. Thus it's better for fighters and if you consistently apply Off Guard, Frightened (demoralize / fear spell), Clumsy - or other boni (which?). Weapons with the Deadly trait is about as good as weapons without for fighters in groups without good tactics / synergy or non-fighter martials with good group synergy/tactics." Or something like that. Oh, and I would like the tier lists to be in [fractions of ] damage die increase (e.g. d8 over d6) instead of A/B/C/D. E.g: perhaps one trait is worth ½ damage dice increase, or more or less. You scale seems to be "C means the trait is a wash.", but I am not sure.

[@SigurdBraathen]

Fatal (S) vs. Deadly (A+) : Deadly scales with the fundamental runes: "This increases to two dice if the weapon has a greater striking rune and three dice if the weapon has a major striking rune." So a -/+1/+2/+3 potency rune rune will make a Deadly weapon add +1/+1/+2/+3 weapon dice. Thus at medium/higher levels a Deadly weapon can be about as good or even better than a Fatal weapon, I think. (haven't thoroughly mathed that out).

[@gustavotriqui]

That will depend on the weapon itself (some have higher fatal or deadly traits, higher or lower base damage, etc), but in general, not really. A greater striking shortbow does 3d6 deadly 1d10, which means in a crit it does 6d6+2d10, so it's 21+11 =32 average damage. A dueling pistol would do 7d10 on a crit, which is 38,5 average damage. At level 19+ a major striking shortbow would do 8d6+3d10, while a dueling pistol could do 9d10. The average damage of the shortbow would be 44,5 , while the damage on the dueling pistol would be 49.5. The shortbow makes up for the difference because it doesn't have Reload 1, and has a better range, of course. But that's besides the fact that Fatal is better than Deadly for most cases. Deadly is better when the weapon damage itself is already high (so increasing it to fatal does little, or nothing at all). For example Scythes do 1d10 damage and 1d10 deadly, in that case Fatal will be worse at level 12+. But for the majority of standard weapons with the fatal or deadly trait, the fact that Fatal increase the regular damage makes up for the extra die of deadly at levels 12 and 19

[@SigurdBraathen]

@@gustavotriqui : Good break down! The archer could use a composite short bow for a few more damage, maybe as much as +5 damage at level 15. That will change everything! =Þ .. Alright, so the composite short bow would crit equally to the pistol at level 15? The normal hits should be better then: CSB: 3d6 + 5 = 15,5 damage DPistol: 3d6 = 10,5 damage. But this is comparing oranges to pineapples as AFAIK only Gunslingers would use a firearm(??), and they're all about the crits (fatal), and .. IDK. For melee weapons: I would have to do some heavy spreadsheeting and compare them peaches to bananas 😕

[@MagmaRiver]

I haven't even begun to do the maths on this, and I'm not far enough into the video to know if this is already brought up, but in case it isn't: one interesting thing to note is that Fatal usually increases the die by two steps, whereas Deadly usually has a die one step larger. This of course varies, and varies far more with Deadly, but an interesting thing to consider if you're wanting to delve into the maths further. Also, the only Fatal exceptions I know of to this are the Greatpick, which is already a d10, and the Big Boom Gun, which is d6 Fatal d12, but also has the Cobbled trait, which risks a misfire on *every* miss.

[@Real_Sp00ks]

I am very confused by you saying youre "better off investing in strength" for finesse when for many classes thats just not possible. Yes a Rogue/Swashbuckler etc CAN have strength, but their key ability score is dex and thus youre going to have much less accuracy attacking with strebgth vs dex. Not to mention that finesse weapons are required by several of their class features.

[@caihly2443]

I think its argument is removed from the context of class features or class design; there are martial classes and subclasses that integrate almost all playstyles into their identity (MAP negating, one handed, guns, etc), thus "forcing" a choice. But when it comes down to a malleable character that *could* potentially be anything (like a fighter), strength will fit a melee playstyle better than dex

[@oldrin1876]

This is amazing. Wow.

[@hammerspace8866]

The attacks from the mountain stance has the forcefull tag.

[@Jon_East]

Regarding Twinned: Have I just been misreading this trait all this time? I always interpreted the "of the same type" part as being the same weapon, e.g. having to wield two Dandpatta, rather than "type" referring to the weapon category, which doesn't seem fitting for the theme of twinned weapons.

[@songbird666]

I was given to understand that the main benefit of Capacity is getting to attack multiple times without needing to reload, meaning it was essentially a minor buff to action economy/tempo for ranged classes. Am I missing something, or is that not as exciting as it seems to me?

[@lexchxn]

You're thinking of Repeating! Repeating weapons have magazines that require no reloads between shots, but have 3 action reloads to swap out a new one. Capacity weapons can be best thought of as manually rotated revolvers- You still need to Interact to reload them by spinning to the next chamber, the benefit is that it doesn't require a free hand to do so. The issue, then, is that it only benefits dual-wielding one-handed reload weapons, because you can already reload two-handed weapons- and if you're building a dual-wielder, there's a dedicated feat that does it better and allows you to then use stronger guns.

[@songbird666]

@@lexchxn Oh, oops! :P Thanks for the clarification!

[@FeistyVillain]

I think of kickback the same as propulsive, have 14 str, get +1 damage, and later if you want to upgrade it so you need 18 str and get +2 damage. Though it's still not really a big consideration for me, if I were to play a sniper gunslinger I would take an arquebus anyway, for the damage and range, but it is a nice bonus.

[@twilight-2k]

It's specific to Thief Rogue but Finesse is S tier for them (since they get to add Dex as damage instead of Str). There are a few I slightly disagree with but, overall, a very nice job on the tier list. For you tier lists, do you have spreadheets or something that give the list or only the videos? I like watching videos once but it would be handy to have a document of the tier list for reference later.

[@user-eq8ww1gr6v]

Do you have a link to the final list for future reference?

[@Lazypal243]

I wish Nethys weapon traits showed all the Martial arts stances as well, Stumbling Swing has great value due to it's traits and damage die but you would never see it unless you checked out the stances.

[@Jon_East]

I mean it's tricky, right, cause at that point the question becomes if you should also list every ancestry feat or heritage that gives you natural attacks, and then next are spells, or items, or... It's just a bit of a Pandora's Box.

[@1uohdh2]

to give Razing a tiny amount of credit, many objects (i.e. wall spells) and creatures that are objects dont take extra damage from crits anyway, so having its extra damage not be affected by a crit either doesn't make much difference. It does still matter for attacking Shields though, which is probably one of its biggest use cases, so thats unfortunate

[@Nercrontyr]

Greats vid. Curious on your rating on fangwire since it has a unique mix of grapple, agile, deadly d8 and backstabber. Ive been debating if using it for press attacks like combat grab, orif one should stick to that higher 1d8 dmg die at the cost of higher map on that 2nd attack? I agree reach+grapple is great. Sadly im limited to 1 handed weapon. It seems good but not certain.

[@Loeher]

What about Brutal? No weapons have it but it technically exists haha

[@lyracian]

Wow! That is a long video. I guess the next one is to actually look at weapons rather than just the traits. Looking at monsters I see almost nothing has resistance to Bludgeoning without also resisting Piercing/Slashing which is why I always look for a blunt weapon options first. Tekko-Kagi is also one of my favourite weapons since you can get the Parry trait while keeping a free hand. As far as I can see you do not even have to be proficient with Martial Weapons to use it for Parry.

[@lexchxn]

The Tekko-Kagi are in fact very awesome! I love the imagery of them especially. As for Parrying, you must be trained or better with the weapon to use it in that way: 2e.aonprd.com/Traits.aspx?ID=667

[@lyracian]

@@lexchxn There we go if I had actually bothered to read the trait I would have answered my own question. Good job I have only been using it on a Bard who have martial training (now they are remastered).

[@danielmarkoff7153]

Where did you find the power budget for traits?

[@theVaam8]

interesting take on fatal and deadly since both don't seem to cost damage dice deadly should be stronger starting at greater striking assuming its at least deadly d8. not sure how much that would change

[@soldier660]

Thanks, nice video ^^ !!!

[@chadhale-d5t]

what is your opinion of the dancer's spear and the duelist spear? otoh - take a look at Pathfinder infinite, lot of cool books there! seriously, there is that "Tome of Psionics" fundraiser. Hate A.I.? help the guy pay for an artist!

[@ferrisffalcis]

noooooo fatal is bait don't do this to yourself!!! don't gamble when free hand and reach weapons are right there with so much value

[@TheGreatDanish]

LETS GO GAMBLING! I CANT STOP WINNING

[@andrewmcclean823]

Fighter weapon proficiency goes brrrr.

[@hellfrozenphoenix13]

Fatal is fun af tho! Imo, it depends on the class. Fighter makes, by far, the best out of it with their higher attack proficiency

[@MagmaRiver]

As a GM, I tremble in fear of my Gunslinger's dice

[@hellfrozenphoenix13]

@@MagmaRiver my mom (who plays with me as a fellow player) has a Lance on her Fighter Centaur and let me tell you, the GM has already learned that her crits are scary

[@Etropalker]

Overall great video, but I think you overated combination(clunky), underrate concussive(bludgeoning often is the odd one out). I would add that while deadly is often good(such as on a rapier, which has the highest damage a finesse 1 hander will get), it does sometimes decrease the damage die, such as on the glaive, which is rarely worth it. And fatal aim in F is just wrong. "Fatal, but you cant regrip your weapon as part of a reload" is still fatal, and should be around b tier

[@joshuatitsworth9190]

Orcs can get forceful on their unarmed strikes and bleed on critical hits. Orc monks are great.

[@StormEagle5]

Where does forceful come from?

[@saprone8885]

I disagree with multiple ratings in your list. Reach should be S tier. Grapple is nice to have. Trip is stronger compared to Grapple. Guisarme is a top tier weapon for a reason.

[@HenshinFanatic]

Critical Fusion should be higher because of the insane power of firearm crit spec (especially with a grievous rune giving the target a -4 on their save) as an option on most of the Critical Fusion weapons. Stunned means they can't act until it clears, that includes reactions.

[@Emboarbof]

The exquisite sword cane is one of your favorite weapons? yeah I bet, since it's a broken weapon that gravely exceeds its power budget LMAO

[@ninten90z70]

Unarmed Attacks do NOT automatically apply the Agile trait to Athletics maneuvers. It is a common misconception that they do. The Agile trait is useful for many classes that rely on or can benefit from it depending on their build. Fighter: There are many Fighter feats that involve or require attacking enemies and some of them use the Press trait, which requires suffering from multiple attack penalty. Not every Fighter build will benefit from the Agile trait, but some effective ones do, especially ones that opt for something like Combat Grab, which is an easily accessible feat and a powerful one at all levels of play. Monk: Many Monk stances provide both Agile and Finesse that incentivize players into a dexterity Monk that deals as much damage as a strength Monk or more while benefiting from more AC at most or all levels of play. Monks have excellent action economy, but struggle heavily with Multiple Attack Penalty. A monk build I personally favor is a Dex-based one that still has a +2 or +3 to Athletics and starts with Reflective Ripple stance at 1st level for easier Trip attempts and Expert Athletics at 3 for Flurry of Maneuvers at 4. This is especially rewarding when I take Stand Still at 6 so that when an enemy I've tripped and smacked tries standing up ends up smacked again for a potential crit that ensures they waste an action trying to get up. Ranger: A flurry Ranger does not suffer as much from MAP as a Monk, but a Ranger can certainly benefit from the Agile trait that will almost enable them to ignore MAP altogether. Rogue: A Rogue generally relies on an attack having the Agile or Finesse trait for their Sneak Attack damage. A Thief Racket Rogue can dump their strength without sacrificing damage and not have to worry about the Finesse trait that replaces their damage modier with Dex, but they still need either that or the Agile trait. Swashbuckler: Swashbuckler, like Rogue, requires their strikes to have the Agile or Finesse trait to make the most of their damage. A rapier is pretty much standard for most Swashbucklers as a result. Some Swashbuckler styles also rely on actions that have the attack trait such as Gymnast with athletics maneuvers, which is my personal favorite style (I cannot endorse mechanics that debuff enemies enough to players as I both play and host games). The necessity of Agile places it in S, in my opinion. Not because it is that good on its own, but because so many builds and classes are required to rely on it for their mechanics to function optimally. Agile warps the game, in my opinion, for that reason. To have so much of the system revolve around one small mechanic does not optimize the system, it limits and restricts player choices.

[@lexchxn]

I'm sorry my friend, you are mistaken. Read the "Multiple Attacks with Athletics" sidebar on page 234 of Player Core. It's also available at the very bottom of the Athletics page on Archives of Nethys: 2e.aonprd.com/Skills.aspx?ID=36 "Several Athletics actions have the attack trait[...]Since these actions use your free hand, you use the traits for your fist attack to determine the multiple attack penalty, so your fist’s agile trait applies. Therefore, you take a -4 penalty if the action is your second attack of the turn, or a -8 if it’s the third."