Cheating | 5e Dungeons & Dragons | TTRPG | Web DM

[@WebDM]

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[@james10o1]

It's not cheating... It's a mulligan.

[@777Looper]

I thought it was called “Tallest” the first three times you said it in the video. TBH, I’m a little disappointed I wasn’t right. (Might have myself a homebrew.)

[@RabiddRabitt1984]

@web dm yo Jim you lose weight? Looking good!

[@quonomonna8126]

I cheated as a brand new DM at Adventure League because I didn't want to kill a player my very first time running a game, especially since the player was like 12 and I didn't realize he was low on health from the last session...whoopsie! he dropped to 0 health and had to make a fort save versus poison or take another 2d6 damage and I let him roll with advantage which probably wasn't the best way to handle that but the sessions are only 2 hours long and we wanted to finish the fight before the session was over

[@Amrylin1337]

Hopefully ya'll are aware or have since learned that if you really need to fudge or do secret rolls, most if not all of those virtual tabletops have a GM roll or a whisper and that can be used at any time, by anyone. The GM can gmroll themselves. So it's not any different to being around a table at all.

[@kyleward3914]

DM Says: How many hit points do you have? DM Means: I'm trying my best not to kill your character right now.

[@christopherclubb9167]

Kyle Ward let your villains be villains, players will surprise you. I had a group that decided to infiltrate a pirate fortress by hiding inside of empty beer barrels that one of the players tried to sell to them. They managed to pull it off without a hitch and got inside of the keep undetected. I expected them to wait until dark and handle the area stealthily. Instead, they immediately jumped out and attacked in broad daylight, alerting the 40-some enemies inside. I even warned the players against the idea, which they ignored. I fully expected a TPK, and played the pirates as realistic as possible. Somehow, the players defeated them, and did so without a single player death.

[@bharl7226]

@@christopherclubb9167 that's a really cool edge-case of a story, but unfortunately it won't always work out that way. Things can go very wrong very quickly very accidentally.

[@loganmavity2805]

Or they're trying to kill you.

[@christopherclubb9167]

Benjamin Harl they can, and if that is appropriate then that is what happens. I do not protect player characters, nor do I intentionally try to kill them. I do whatever the monsters/npcs would do, and let the chips fall (with a little flimflam here and there to add to the fun)

[@bharl7226]

@@christopherclubb9167 and I overall agree with that approach. Plausibility and realism are most important in my game so enemies must act as they would, or the internal consistency falls apart and immersion will be lost. But investment is also most important in my game. I want players and myself to feel attached to the characters, setting, and story. To feel like a part of it, the realistic consistency is very important, but so is the enjoyment of it all. And I think we all know from experience that sometimes everything goes wrong in the worst ways (by pure accident, rather than for the sake ofba hardcore challenge) and losing a character you've been so invested in suddenly and for no good story reason is the worst feeling of disappointing loss. Narrative satisfaction is the other thing that is most important to my game, so I always try to give characters good endings. So I'm all for a realistically hardcore challenging and letting what happens happen, up to the point where it gets to "accidentally ruining the story and the fun of the game" territory. And obviously that line will be different for every group. But like I said, overall I agree with your approach as you said it, in fact that's basically what I tell my players in session zero about the way I run my game. But I do feel that some amount of precaution, contingency plans, and fudging when needed will go a long way towards preserving the overall enjoyment of the game, at least more than the constant threat and difficulty (which I found got really old, really fast. I personally hated replacing my character way too soon before their story could play out.) of losing your protagonists and having to start over will.

[@Ninjaofthebear]

WebDM: “To your players it doesn’t matter what the weather is...” Call Lightning users: “Um what?”

[@robinwang6399]

Ninjaofthebear control weather users: reality is what I want it.

[@girlsinredtrenchcoat1169]

They specified not that the players don’t care about weather it’s that they don’t care whether you determined it randomly or not

[@robinwang6399]

That Asshole oh, I haven’t got to that part yet, I just saw this comment and thought it was kinda funny.

[@JMLawson80]

The very first session where I introduced weather rolls, it began to rain. My players freaked out. "Someone is controlling weather!"

[@GundamAngelicDevil]

Is it raining?

[@mattachoo212]

Best thumbnail you've ever done. Web DM memes should be a thing

[@WebDM]

Thank you!

[@codyjtaylor140]

This thumbnail killed me 😂

[@darklightstudio]

RIP ;p

[@michaelscotts3949]

I cringed hard. I don't even cringe on those thumbnails with aberrations and undead on them but this.. yikes.

[@Abrogator91]

For scenes where I don't want the party to fail outright, I use a partial success. For example: say the party has been hired to recover an artifact from some evil wizard or something. After defeating said wizard, a party member goes to check the wizards chambers for the artifact. They do an investigation check with a DC of 17. If they fail, all they find is the artifact. If they succeed, they also find extra loot. You can split this up as much as you want, having different levels of DC for each action with better and better results on higher rolls

[@Journal14]

Ive never thought of such a simple, elegant solution to search DCs. I'm gonna write this down. Very clever.

[@Abrogator91]

@@Journal14 It can even work in combat! If a player has been missing constantly because of bad rolls, then allow them a hit at half damage on a low roll. At least then they feel like they are contributing still. Alternatively, you can allow them to roll with advantage occasionally with the understanding that their next roll will be with disadvantage. What you use just really depends on the scenario that you are faced with

[@Nathan_Talisien]

That's pretty much how 3rd edition handled things, and I've kept it ever since. It never made sense that *everything* should be 100% pass/fail; varying levels of success make far more sense. It works in a flavor aspect, too. If a player attacks an enemy with 15 AC, there should be a difference between a roll of 5, 10, and 14. Yes, they are all technically a "miss"- but did they outright miss (5), glance off the enemy's shield (10), or get stopped at the last moment by a desperate parry (14)?

[@piemaniac9410]

@@Nathan_Talisien i always do it where a 9 or less is an outright miss, then anything between 10 to their ac is either stopped by the armor or otherwise mitigated by a dexterous move based on if they wear light, med, or heavy armor, and if they have a shield

[@nickwilliams8302]

Alternative method: don't call for a check at all. Unless there's a time limit, just assume that when the players say they're searching for treasure, they're searching thoroughly. They've just defeated an evil wizard. They expect there to be treasure and they're turning that place _upside down_ looking for it. If it's there, they find it. Now, if the place is collapsing due to the wizard's magic failing now he's dead, different story.

[@Kugo]

If there's three wardrobe changes in the first 2 minutes, you know its gonna be a good Web DM.

[@GrumpyOldGuyPlaysGames]

"It should be the player's game, though." A statement that ignores one salient fact: THE DM IS ALSO A PLAYER. The DM is more than just a tool by which the players get enjoyment from the game. He is also a player and an equal participant. The one-sided (and frankly ludicrous) attitude that the game belongs to the players is simple wrong-headed.

[@girlbuu9403]

Agreed, the game should be fun for everyone. But that said, a DM has way more potential to ruin a game for the others than the players do. So the prevailing attitude that they should do everything in their power to make sure the players are having fun isn't unwarranted even if it goes a little far in places. It has gotten better, but there are still too many DMs who are trying to 'win' or putting their enjoyment of what they are doing so far ahead of their players that it is negatively impacting their experience.

[@GrumpyOldGuyPlaysGames]

Its been my experience that most of the time when a player is complaining about a DM with an "Us vs. Them" mentality like you describe, what actually happened was the player wanted something and the DM told him no, because what the player wanted was ridiculous.

[@girlbuu9403]

​@@GrumpyOldGuyPlaysGames Oh wow you edited this to be radically different than what the notification said. I thought this was going to be a pretty quick response but that is a bit to unpack. As a DM I have shot down a lot of things and sometimes players get mad and sometimes they don't. For instance, I set a campaign in real world Europe back in the 1200s and a player had their heart set on a monk which really doesn't mesh with what I had in mind. Wanting to play an established class that has been a staple in the game since 1st edition isn't a ridiculous desire, and I still shot it down because trying to get a Shaolin across the largest continent on Earth during a period where Europe and China barely knew of each other's existence was a bit of an immersion breaker for me. They suggested they wouldn't play because of it, and I told them that wasn't unreasonable seeing as that could be construed as a massive red flag that I was overly controlling. We worked it out in the end. Trying to make what I am saying out to be something like that is way more ridiculous. Of course things are not always clear cut. It isn't always 100% any one person's fault a game goes bad or has severe issues, but in MY experience most of the time when there is rot it starts with the dungeon master simply because they have the most sway over how a game goes. DMs have the most responsibility, not just because they design the setting but because they usually act as the referee when there is a problem player. A weak DM who acquiesces to a players ridiculous demands is also a bad DM in my eyes, and is at least partially at fault for enabling them. Sometimes a player tries to rape a princess in a room over from where the God Emperor is sleeping then has a hissy fit over their character being killed because the DM "took away their agency" and "totally went out of their way to put that preestablished extremely powerful NPC right next to their level 2 character doing something really despicable to his daughter" In those cases it isn't hard to figure out. Ask the other players for their opinion. It isn't impossible for them all to be assholes, but isn't likely. If it was the player's fault they will be quick to at least assign them a little of the blame. But no one will forget the DM that let the bastard get away with shit like that. Or the DM that has NPCs do shit like that to their character. Then again... there is no wrong way to play D&D. Just people with different desires from the game clashing. If a group of players genuinely have fun just getting whatever they want and walking around like unstoppable gods who am I to ruin their fun? But despite my love of higher levels it isn't for me. Likewise a game so hard that the players die all the god damn time is... honestly how D&D used to be. There's nothing wrong with a hardcore game, but it is only for me if you warn me ahead of time not to put too much effort in fleshing out my character since they might die the first time I play them. But I generally don't like a game where one bad dice roll can kill you. Some people actually like being rail roaded so long as their characters are still fairly important to the plot by say, level five to ten. DMs who make a campaign all about their story where the player characters are afterthoughts... I've yet to meet a player that likes that but I am sure they exist. And yeah, I like dark gritty games sometimes. Really disgusting actions can be used as very effective plot devices. They can make you hate a villain like you wouldn't believe and become genuinely invested in seeing their absolute ruination. But a DM should be really careful about that sort of thing, and at the end of the day it will be the DM who makes the call. The only agency a player, not a player character the actual flesh and blood person behind the character, really has in those instances is to just stop playing. Imagine if the DM let the player get away with the scene I described earlier without any negative consequences. Imagine if instead of an NPC princess it was your character. That's the kind of power a DM holds, and that is why people are generally way more critical of them.

[@badasunicorn6870]

It's a bit confusing, because player can be used both as in participant of the game, and as a contrast to the dm. I would also say that yes, the DM is also a participant, and should be having fun, but they have a great amount of power, and the players are at their mercy. You can easily have fun, but your players rely on you a lot. You shouldn't dm to be god (not implying you said so, just making a point) you should dm because you enjoy running the game. I don't know if I had fun untill I know if my players have fun, I am there for them, and the game I'm playing is that of making a world that it's rewarding to engage with. I win when they're apprecheating my efforts, if they're not having fun, my work didn't pay off the way I wanted. It's not supposed to be a sacrefice, but a goal, a reward in itself. Anyone can have fun rping a dragon, but it is the greatest joy to have a player tell you that the world you made, the work you did made their week. When they care so much about your game they form relationships with your noc's (in a hralthy way). As a dm, I can't have a bad time if my players enjoyed the game, and I can't have fun lest they do. I can be bored, underwhelmed and amused, but actually having real fun comes from seeing the joy in their face, and being dissapointed comes from realizing that I've broken a player's heart. The DM is also a player, but the game is asymetric, the players are playing the world and all that's in it, the DM is playing the other players. We either win togeather or lose togeather.

[@madtitan9639]

As a GM, I decided to roll my dice in the open so there would be no doubt about cheating. But, I ran a game for some players that I'm pretty sure wanted me to cheat in their favor and hide that from them so they could feel they were doing well. I suggested ways to make the game less deadly but these were all resisted. Time after time, the real answer seemed to be that they wanted to believe the game was hard, but also wanted to win all the time. Part of believing that required me to fool them. Making it feel dangerous without being dangerous requires me to be more clever than all the players, all the time. I don't even want to try that. It ended badly after a tpk.

[@Mauricekaip]

“I wanna play Dark Souls on easy mode”

[@guillermoalvarez2373]

Uncharted's "first gunshot always misses rule, really changed my perspective on fairness. Fairness always skews in the players direction and not on perfect mathematical fairness. The best fights come down to the fight seeming fair but with the "AI" having unseen handicaps. Don't tell your players either way.

[@jacksonbianco2934]

That thumbnail is now my lock screen

[@DZPengu]

The fudge I remember the most about as a DM had just started a campaign with a group of new players at level 1 they just reached their first dungeon had yet to encounter a monster and only had been playing for about 15-20 minutes. The paladin tripped on a trap fell down some stairs and took some minor damage but where they tripped and fell the random monster encounter got them attacked by three giant rats all of whom got to attack if someone fell in their area all crit rolled and would have instantly full killed the paladin. "Luckily" for the paladin only one giant rat attacked and the other two were startled and ran away.

[@EvlNinjadude]

I mean, if I was a giant rat and someone threw a full plate set of armor down the stairs like a crate of cymbals I'd be startled too! Sometimes a game can be made MORE realistic by not strictly following game rules at every turn and utilizing the sequence of events and player choices as it happens. Injects a bit of life that way.

[@jaysw9585]

Its stuff like this is why I don't do random encounters. If there is an encounter, its because i want it to be there and it makes sense to the story.

[@TheGentlemanDuelist]

Jason Whetzesl I too subscribe to this theory, HOWEVER, I make random encounters that would make sense in context. Camping in a forest? Well, I want the party to be have some sort of conflict; random encounter table with things like a pack of wolves stalking the party, bandits on the road, wandering merchants, little things

[@tsstahl]

@@TheGentlemanDuelist Right! A random encounter does not need to be anything near combat. One of my random encounters is 'nature calls'. Now the player affected is paranoid about squatting nekid to take care of bodily necessaries dreading an AC10 prone attack. Adds flavor, heightens tension and most of all, gives the players a prime roll play moment.

[@piemaniac9410]

@@jaysw9585 i like random encounters that relate to the area im in, in a dungeon it could be a monster wandering from their room into ours, but the number of total monsters remains fixed for the entire dungeon crawl. Think of the random encounter triggering a fight early rather than adding another one to the dungeon.

[@jacksonhoppis]

Oh my God that thumbnail is pure genius, that made my day

[@jeffbangle4710]

In the early days of the US Air Force "Red Flag" exercises in Nevada, the exercise referees rolled dice to determine things like "you had the enemy aircraft in your sights for two frames - was it a kill or just damage?" The pilots used to complain incessantly about "unfair dice". Finally the referees replaced the physical dice with a computerized random number generator that had the same odds as the dice. The pilots stopped complaining about "unfair" decisions, since a computer made the ruling. I left the service before most pilots became knowledgeable about random number generators in computer games - I wonder if they're back to complaining about "unfair" decisions these days...

[@FleshlyDelight]

100% still complaining.

[@jacobstaten2366]

Apparently SOCOM actually gives you better likelihood than it tells you, yet people still complain that they miss too often.

[@rip4324]

When I stopped fudging die rolls my GM skills became so much better. I learned how to have conversations with my players if something became hard, or how to make an encounter harder if the dice are not going in your favor. It's really worth it.

[@slightlysmaug4249]

I can agree but I do feel if the story will suffer for it I will still fudge.... but in the last 2 years of my games.. I've fudged 2 times.

[@bharl7226]

I think that having techniques and backup plans for changing things on the fly is great and better than fudging, but I definitely don't shy away from fudging when it is needed.

[@thedarkness125]

You sure fudging was the issue was the problem and not experience?

[@nickwilliams8302]

@@thedarkness125 Experience at pretending to run a game won't help you to _actually_ run a game. You'll never learn how to _actually_ balance an encounter or create an _actual_ challenge for your players until you stop messing with the numbers behind the screen.

[@MLF4468]

Personally I roll all my dice infront of my players, I don't believe in fudging the rolls.

[@The_Sharktocrab]

I may watch around with those other d&d channels, but you're my main squeeze web dm

[@WebDM]

We know your heart belongs with us, babe!

[@Overlord99762]

I think Web DM know how to stay fun without going into cringe like some other channels, I used to watch another content creator, but he made these sketches that were extremely cringe inducing and I had to quit.

[@The_Sharktocrab]

@@Overlord99762 are you not naming names on purpose because i feel like i know who you're referring to

[@Overlord99762]

@@The_Sharktocrab I'm being vague on purpose to avoid causing bigger problems

[@The_Sharktocrab]

@@Overlord99762 understood

[@ComicSams48]

Your thumbnails never cease to impress. Terrifying for sure, but in the best ways

[@andrewgross144]

For me, the “cheating” I do the most as a DM is fudging rolls. Mostly I do this because I’m a new DM and I’m still trying to find balance in combat. As I’ve been getting better I’ve done it less.

[@williamblack2904]

With regards to changing stats mid fight I agree entirely, with one exception. I made a monster called the adaptive ooze that I told them could learn and adapt to their attacks and strategies on the fly.

[@williamblack2904]

Cass Beirne I’d be really surprised if you did as I home brewed them entirely. Though it’s not a completely original idea so I could see another dm coming up with the same creature.

[@Kaigai_Kaiju]

Hey guys, this has nothing really to do with the topic at hand but I've been DMing for just shy of a year now and your videos have been a humongous help and inspiration since I've found your channel. I'm currently binge watching them as I design dungeons and paint minis and just wanted to say thank you for all your advice and hard work!

[@TheCaptainstupendous]

These intros are pure gold and just keep appreciating like fine art

[@coreyporter8640]

Omg best thumbnail I've seen in years!!

[@olearris]

I will, on the fly, change HP of the boss or enemy just to add a on the edge of my seat moment or a dying speech.

[@bharl7226]

@@krayos13 something I do to help with the flexibility of tension in encounters is to not give my villains or important monsters a defined amount of HP at all. Instead I just keep adding up how much damage is done to it until it seems like enough to have made it a satisfactory challenge or it is at the perfect dramatic moment for the fight to be ended.

[@billpowell6131]

Totally agree. You gotta feel your crowd

[@tsstahl]

@@krayos13 Do a little math to help with your encounters. Add up the number of attacks of the whole party per round. Then total their HP. Say some hypothetical party has 6 attacks and a total of 150 HP. An encounter of parity will feature--wait for it, 6 attacks and 150 HP of foe. A hard encounter would be 1.5 times the party, that is 9 attacks and 225 HP. An easy encounter is anything 25-75% of parity. You can get more complicated by adding average AC and damage potential per round; three long sword attacks is not the same as 3 fireballs per round, etc. However, just starting out, stick with the easy math to size your encounters. I could go on about figuring in resource depletion, but I'll just close with a variant example. A boss parity encounter after 2 or 3 easy encounters becomes hard because the party should be low on spells and class abilities.

[@wilfchapman-gandy8120]

@@tsstahl I'd probably replace attacks with a max damage output. and then lower it to allow for cool uses of non-damaging spells and such.

[@squidlytv]

@@tsstahl Math will forever limit my combat encounters, I absolutely hate math. I am a relatively new dm and my players are loving the campaign. Rn we are doing stuff online so we are even more limited in combat. I've basically been improvising each encounter but eventually I can see that running old.

[@Vegas242]

Dang, I haven't even watched the video yet but now I feel like I need to rewatch Matt Colville's video where he talked about fudging dice rolls, while I don't know if I entirely agree with him he does make a really great argument in favor of fudging rolls.

[@dahrqbru496]

The more I've been thinking about the strong suggestions to bend the rules in favor of the player character's survival, the more I am completely disagreeing with them. At some point, when I bend the rules completely out of shape, I'm not sure I'm still actually playing D&D. The reality is that the majority of D&D games I see online are coming from DM's who stream their games for large audiences, and who have their financial interests directly tied to the games they stream. That's a TV show. I suspect a real concern is that, if characters die, it threatens the show's ratings.

[@dahrqbru496]

FYI: You may want to watch the video Colville published earlier today, "Many Fail States, Running the Game #88." He's speaking to this issue.

[@kiara-kh7nh]

Dahrqbrü just watched that, and I feel like if you consistently apply the advice he hands out there, you have to fudge the game a lot less.

[@CitanulsPumpkin]

Seth Skorkowsky also did a video on fudging die rolls. His main argument used a dramatization of an encounter where the party fights their way to the big bad evil guy who rolls two crits and max damage on the party's only front line PC in the very first round. Which makes for a better game night? The paladin, fighter, or barbarian getting killed off in one hit before they could even do anything and then the rest of the party shortly follows. Or the big bad opens the fight by dealing a quarter of the damage the dice rolled, and then the party goes through 7 rounds of epic back and forth blows, only ending when the big bad lands a final blow that the party made them work for.

[@dahrqbru496]

@@kiara-kh7nh idk. Seems like he's very clearly encouraging DM's to keep throwing in safety nets that will keep players from dying, no matter how many bad choices they make or how many bad rolls they make, because it's "cinematic." IMHO, that sounds more like producing a TV show than refereeing a D&D game. I tend to agree with Jim's position.

[@Tobi1Kanobi93]

I play with open rolls every time I DM. My players have loved it, as they know I'm not trying to "gift" them a victory, they actually managed to do this themselves. The only rolls I hide are things they shouldn't know anything about like random encounters and the like.

[@d.c.7944]

Amen. I gm that way too. And I name my DCs before they roll as long as its important to keep it hidden. It gives the PCs more agency and faith in their experience, and therefore they get more invested

[@anthonystromeyer1399]

I joke about killing off characters all the time but I also rejoice when my party slaughters the bigbadevilguys that I thought would challenge them. I've got a grimdark gonzo session starting in about 2 hours.

[@slightlysmaug4249]

I use a gm scree or whisper my roles on roll20

[@Bachlaham]

My DM plays with open rolls and there’s a lot of “wait, what are you doing? That’s too many dice! Wtf? Oh shit! 6 of the 10 dice were max dmg!”

[@Tobi1Kanobi93]

@@Bachlaham "wow that's a lot of d10s you're pulling out there" Me after warning the player not to do the thing for 5 minutes.

[@osmium6832]

15:30 This pairs very well with the recent Matt Colville video Failing Forward. Maybe everyone has a really cool idea and they all get 1's. Maybe the thing still happens, but it cost them more than they thought. Maybe one of the players has to die or they lose items or something else even worse is unleased upon taking down your BBEG in a spectacular way. You jump kick the high priest of Orcus into the summoning circle and he melts like a nazi at the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark... and becomes that final sacrifice necessary to bring Orcus forth.

[@darkmantlestudios]

Being a great DM can be like being a magician. Sometimes doing some sleight of hand can produce wonders, but if you fail, it can go right to hell.

[@sillymonger]

please just make these videos for forever... love you guys

[@WebDM]

We'll try to for as long as we can!!! If y'all wanna help us do that, check out our podcast on patreon.com/webdm!

[@fpanch0]

I still miss that beard

[@Ultimus31]

Intro Plays *Liam O'Brien Liked That*

[@childofatom95]

The thumbnail was everything I needed today

[@Crunchatize_Me_Senpai]

The blurry image of Pruitt in the foreground of the thumbnail really got my goat

[@MidwestGuru91]

Ultimately the dice are the ultimate story teller at the table. As players it's our job to interpret the dice and give voice to the story they're telling. Sometimes that story is a rogue sneaking into the kingdoms vault or paladin convincing the necromancer to turn over a new leaf. Sometimes it's that a dragon wipes out the party.

[@inkblotCrisis]

Cheating is only when you get caught. For everything else there's Masterca- I mean the DM screen.

[@OnlyTwoShoes]

It's only cheating if you get caught and as a DM there should be no reason you are ever caught. Never let your players know you 'cheated', because it betrays their trust and potentially devalues their decisions.

[@Thurmanation2011s]

The DM cannot really "cheat" if it for the purpose of creating a good story. Or keepomg the occasional player alive.

[@Ghardyne]

Just came here to say your thumbnail game is on point! Whoever comes up with them is a comedic genius!

[@WebDM]

Thank you! It was a group effort!

[@cartersmith6628]

Fantastic thumbnail this time guys. Especially with the double Pruitts

[@WallyDM]

Thumbnails have just reached another level... the super-secret level of holy smokes, that is awesome.

[@WebDM]

Thank you!

[@Spooksmagoo]

you guys went pretty in-depth with dice rolls and not asking for dice rolls if you don't want a player to fail. I think that a really nice perspective on this is Matt colville multiple fail States video that also came out the same day as this one. It can give you a nice mix between getting to call for dice rolls and not completely derailing your game, by having consequences that are not necessarily complete failure. He talks about increasing drama, and for my table, a failure on knowledge checks is usually that they get enough that they could go investigate the topic if they felt that information was important

[@curtishammer748]

Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back with a DM that Fudges The Wompa's stealth check is just below Luke's passive perception. Han's Tauntaun suddenly has proficiency in constitution saves. AT-AT that kills Dak rolls a miss. The intelligence check DC to repair the hyperdrive is suspiciously low. The DM calls for a wisdom save from Luke's player with a prepared response of "You sense that this is an apparition" Lando somehow has a negative charisma modifier for his deception checks against the party. Luke has advantage on all his attacks for... reasons, while Vader keeps miraculously rolling low damage. Edit: Or, ya know, anything that Rey does (COME AT ME, DISNEY WARS FANS!)

[@RobKinneySouthpaw]

I like to tell players when they fail a knowledge roll and people start trying to pile on..."You'll just have to find another way to proceed. Trust me, if it's a roll you can fail, I have put at least some thought to how you guys can finish without it."

[@ginaquinsen145]

Rob Kinney could you give an example of an alternative path they could take?

[@RobKinneySouthpaw]

@@ginaquinsen145 if they fail to disarm a trap, there may be a table they could use as a giant shield and just tank the damage. If they can't find the secret door, there is surely an NPC they can interrogate. If they can't break the NPC and learn of the secret door, an ambush may come out of that door, leaving progress open after the combat. If they don't know the history of a certain ruin, the waiting guardian will be a harder encounter, but not impossible.

[@RobKinneySouthpaw]

And if lack of a piece of monster lore would mean certain death in the encounter, I won't gate it behind a roll in the first place.

[@MrStaffancelind]

Ours GM in Pathfinder, had each session 3 GM "points" that he could use to get a desired outcome out of a situation, much like Hero Points in which players had/have. He would announce that he use a point and that way it didnt compromise that integrity of the game. The GM doesnt have to use them, but its more for story telling reason. Anyway i never felt cheated by this homebrew rule, it might not be the best system but it has worked great so far.

[@zorkwhouse8125]

Thanks for making this one. It's a great topic and as you indicated at the beginning, increasingly relevant as some folks seem to be more and more concerned with playing D&D "as the designers intended." To me that phrase is one that frequently comes up, but to me the designers intended the game to be DIY in conjunction with the published rules. I agree - I think the DM can change things that help the players, but not to change things that help the DM. B/c I think that falls under affecting player agency (as you referred to).

[@Winningrose77]

Failure can be frustrating when you're accustomed to victory, but the joy of dissecting how you were beaten and learning what you can optimize in order to succeed in a particularly difficult challenge and having that effort actually culminate in success the next time you're faced with that challenge is thrilling and supremely satisfying. In video games, my least favorite thing is if I fail an encounter more than a couple of times and the game asks me if I'd like to lower the difficulty. I find that suggestion condescending. I think there are times when directing the experience is called for, definitely, but as a player in any game, I'll start to feel it if I'm never truly challenged and that means being allowed the tension of failure and the joy of earning success.

[@yourgoodliness]

So many good points talked about here. Thank you for your advice. I'll definitely be thinking about this show during my prep from now on!

[@hexchad765]

You guys are nailing it with the weird thumbnails LOL

[@tristanjcotterill4765]

Thanks for your continued contribution to this awesome community. I too would like to be contribute to this community in a meaningful way that you have

[@anthonystromeyer1399]

In my most recent campaign setting I've embraced the DCC/OSR approach of letting the dice fall where they may and if the adventure turns into a meatgrinder then so be it.

[@Carnivalous]

The fact that this came out so soon after Matthew Colvilles video on multiple failstates Feels like a well rounded base of knowledge

[@tomswanson6558]

I had a very challenging DM moment when my grave domain cleric used her channel divinity in a battle against an undead army. Surrounded by 15 undead, 10 passed the save through some unlikely high DM rolling. I fudged those big time because such a high pass rate made no sense in our world and she would have lost an awesome moment. For similar group saves I now use a different roll system with one d20 for a group save where a low roll makes 10% more than average fail, a medium roll makes the expected average against the DC fail, and a high roll makes 10% more succeed against the average rate. Still random outcomes, but within a more controlled range. Plus it’s a lot faster in-game. Love this show and support it on Patreon.

[@WebDM]

Thank you for your support Tom!!

[@jasonrobertson9618]

When I read the title I was hoping for some advice on dealing with cheating players. Had to deal with that recently and I was hoping to hear how others do it. Good video though, I'll see if you have past videos on player cheating.

[@WebDM]

Problem players does cover that! kzbin.info/www/bejne/jmSZeGyujtd7bJI

[@freddaniel5099]

Good topic guys. Enjoy your considered opinion on this very important topic. Thanks for taking this issue on and sharing your experience and wisdom.

[@farmonious420]

And I thought you couldn't beat the Rumors graphic.

[@jh1859]

That friggin thumbnail has to be your masterpiece.

[@Darkendrain]

*kicks in door* On your knees! We're the FBRL and we're here to make sure this game is in full compliance. ON THE GROUND!

[@ralegade7710]

I agree, absolutely essential that a dm understands when it's appropriate to roll the dice. My dm was describing a creature that my level 14 ranger (who already had a background as a well accomplished adventurer) was looking peering down upon. I asked him if my character knew what it was and he had me to a d20. I rolled a natural 1 and he told me I had no idea. Another character tried to identify this creature as well and rolled better. Turns out, we were looking at a kobold. A freaking kobold. Level 14 characters, I speak draconic, and we actually encountered kobolds earlier in the campaign.

[@jordanpillar53]

You guys should do an episode on Winning and Losing a Game of D&D. Would love to hear you go deep in on that concept.

[@brentrawlins6490]

the defeat part is funny to me because once my party got our butts handed to us, and it was our fault, and there were story reasons we did not die but that experience changed how we handled missions afterward it was a real eye-opener

[@vjm3]

I believe it should ultimately come down to two factors (really one, but I digress): 1. Would making this change make the game more interesting? And most importantly... 2. Is everyone having FUN as a result of these changes?

[@KittyThaliaX23]

One of my favorite things I've ever done as a player was choosing to fail my save to tell if an illusion of my missing parents were real or not (they were fake). That was some tasty role play that ended with one of my favorite characters almost dying. But it also gave me a lot of character development and a huge clue as to where they really were. Plus, I got DM inspiration for that lol. Sometimes its fun to fail your rolls.

[@isupposethisismynmw640]

Completely agree on the sentiment, I as a player have sometimes fudged roles to make it more interesting for myself- however, I think it’s good to keep in mind that can occasionally be detrimental to your party and their desire to win.

[@nikolibarastov4487]

At about 21:30 , "There must be some limitations", I immediately thought of an Inspector Callahan... "A man has Got to know his Limitations."

[@FridayBiology]

*just realised that the PHB, DMG and 5e books are in the thumbnails though, the videos could apply to any table.

[@kylenetherwood8734]

The split screen is awesome

[@fmbaws]

The thumbnail got me, hot damn. Great video fellas.

[@WebDM]

Thank you!

[@CL30]

I find that open rolls make my players a lot happier, but this video seems very helpful if I were to be rolling behind a screen

[@skiddysmith1931]

got a lot of insight from this and the "problem dms" video! one thought is couldn't the advantage/disadvantage be used in some of these cases rather than outright fudging? Don't like the roll for whatever reason, give them advantage/disadvantage, either the player or the monster/DM... a lot of the reasons given here were great examples and similar to times I have made these calls!

[@jnever9768]

"can the DM change the encounter after it's started?" i think that's a yes from me dawg. i prep a lot, and I'm still finding my legs with some players and abilities. I often make encounters harder than they should be and need to pull back. What was 4 ghasts now becomes 2 ghasts and 2 skeletons. if i change the encounter to be easier i also reserve the right to make it challenging if it's not. this isn't every encounter because some should be easy but i adjust as we go. I also usually plan this in advance...ie. "if this encounter is too simple add 3 zombies at this stage"

[@jackm.4702]

In a game I was a player in, one of the other players told us when he DMs he never kills players in non-important combats. If it wasn't a boss/setpiece fight, they were in essentially no danger. My question was, if there is no chance of danger, why have the combat at all? Just say that they fought some monsters and won. He didn't agree.

[@mathewfrance5165]

I often put smaller non-lethal combats in as a DM so i can whittle down resources from the party. While death isnt on the line, overall success may be due to a loss of spcific leveled spell slots or usage of temporary items, or hell, even having the party get slowed down. One of my favorite outcomes from player decisions was turning a "the town is being sieged" encounter into a "the town has been destroyed and you arrive at the aftermath" because the party decided to camp out and rest for the night instead of pushing on. The non-lethal combats i put them through meant the death of an entire town.

[@DigitalxGamer]

There is a key difference there, and that is in player choice. Players fight the way they want to fight, and they might end up using certain spells that they won't have later, etc. Plus, there's just more fun to be had in there. And in theory, I think that can potentially lead to a more interesting experience from a player's perspective. If a player is aware that they're not likely going to die from just some random encounter during their transit, they can be more willing to have more fun or take more risks with their moves that they otherwise would never consider and have more fun with the combat system.

[@zeusdemi6858]

@@mathewfrance5165 Arriving at a town under siege with low resources/health and a point of exhaustion is a situation no player wants to be in since that's almost a guarantee someone is going to die

[@yellowbeard1]

Because they want to have fun fighting something significantly weaker then them. It can be very annoying for some players to always feel like they are just barely better then their enemies while they are gaining levels because it does not feel like they are gaining levels. Remember how in some video games you can gain strength and then return to weaker enemies and annihilate them? Do you remember having a feeling of satisfaction, a sense of growth in how something that gave you problems earlier you can now handle easily? Because if you are not into that most tables have players who do enjoy that feeling. This also goes back to "ask your players". You are someone who finds combat boring unless there's a real risk of danger, do the other players feel the same way? Do the other players not enjoy a fifth level fireball in a group of 1/8 CR bandits, rolling the damage dice, the DM describing the horror on the faces of the bandits that were killing travelers as each round the party rolls dice and butchers the enemy? Without dice rolls some players feel like it's just the DM saying "rocks fall, enemies die". If your group does not enjoy that the group needs to talk to the GM. If they do enjoy those sorts of fights then you have a group that enjoys something you don't which is annoying at times and hopefully the DM is willing to work with you to provide a few things that you enjoy to compensate for that.

[@yellowbeard1]

@@mathewfrance5165 It sounds like there was no correct choice because if they had been there they probably would have died depending on how strong the bandits are vs the tired players. Did they know they were on a time limit or had any reason to suspect it? If they did and chose to risk the town that's meaningful player choice, if not then its not meaningful. It would be the equivalent of trying to make someone feel guilty because they invited a friend to hang out and their friend got killed by a drunk driver on the way over.

[@haymaker424]

I'm at the end of a campaign, my players are high level and i'm constantly being surprised at how much damage they can do in one round. I will constantly add HP to enemies to make fights last longer, but never with intention of killing any characters or anything like that. I am a relatively new DM and balancing combat is my biggest weakness. I rarely fudge actual dice rolls though. I only alter things that I could have altered as I was preparing the encounter outside of the session. And it's always to make the gameplay MORE interesting or fun, never punishing. But I am trying to get to a point where I never have to do this.

[@iratevagabond204]

Firm believer in letting the dice and mechanics decide. At the same time, I run mostly sandbox-improv, and the players have a huge amount of agency. Their imagination is the limit, so long as they are working within the bounds within the setting and what's on their character sheet. My worlds are always very fleshed out; i know where the fault lines are, how the winds blow, how much rain there is in an area, what the population is in each area (altering this as the campaign goes along), ect. So while I improv and provide a sandbox game, I have an incredible amount of material to draw from in order to provide consistency.

[@Thornspyre81]

Here here!

[@awesomechainsaw]

I am personally in favor of checking how a fudged game effects my players. My second session is always straight the dice land where they may, and the third I fudge the dice where I think they need to. I ask at the end of both sessions how much fun my players had, and I go with whatever they enjoyed more. Edit: though for me fudging numbers is incredibly rare. Maybe once or twice a session so a player can get off that big badass moment that they want or so that a monster can appear much scarier.

[@oculardegenerate3254]

The only solution to the quantum ogre is to never talk about the quantum ogre. Great job guys. Really well done.

[@corvidus]

The most rolls I fudge are saving rolls against players' spells. When they're low level, and they cast their spell, it's just more fun to let them hit, especially if their last spell missed.

[@basementmadetapes]

U guys have the best thumbnails

[@WebDM]

Thank you!!!

[@dynamicbanteranimated8411]

Had a DM one time (before I started DMing myself, but after I’d learned the basics of how to do it) who didn’t know how to calculate challenge ratings, and threw a Purple Worm at our level 4 party because he figured that 4 level 4s would equal one CR16 monster. Needless to say, when its first attack hit and he realized the damage would one-hit-kill any of us from full health, he went straight into fudge mode to get us out of the encounter and keep the story moving. It was pretty obvious too that he didn’t keep us alive for our sake, but to make sure his story wouldn’t get disrupted. Needless to say, that game didn’t continue much longer.

[@Brass_Heathen]

I'M ABSOLUTELY DYING!!! That thumb nail!!!

[@lukerabon7925]

But does Ptolus contain Monte Cook's best designed trap: The Ivory Tower?

[@thepedanticcreature680]

Ten new feats, each of which allows adding half your proficiency bonus to two specific skills with which you are otherwise not proficient!

[@veerkillerx]

I used to have issues with fudging die rolls in favor of the players, so I just decided to start rolling out in the open and do away with the DM screen.

[@darkmantlestudios]

Where do you keep your plans?

[@guusbaeten2195]

My players were jokingly accusing me of fudging dice so to prematurely defuse any tension I agreed with them to roll in the open. Their spirits broke when those 19 and 20's dropped in front of them without fault

[@adarian]

@@darkmantlestudios Split your screen into two screens on your sides with a space between them to roll thru that the players can see. I use my own modular DM screens I made that I can alter for what system we are using with inserts and its basically two smaller screens on my left and right to hide my notes and keep monster stats but with the center open.

[@darkmantlestudios]

@@guusbaeten2195 I did something similar on roll20, I usually roll in the open, and I Crit the same guy every round for about 5 rounds running.

[@veerkillerx]

@@darkmantlestudios I use a laptop for most of my gaming. Very little plans needed for the homebrew games I run, plus my own campaign setting that I know very well or can invent on the fly

[@XoRandomGuyoX]

Definitely a fan of changing the stakes or parameters of a roll based on player planning an execution. E.g. if the players come up with a great plan but fail a critical stealth check three-quarters of the way through the execution don't throw an entire dungeon at them at once. Maybe they instead hear someone call out, "Hey, wait a moment. I thought I heard something in the next room. Let's go check it out." They still failed the check, but the consequences weren't immediately fatal and there's a chance to come up with a quick response tactic to keep the plan on track.

[@yodaxena1366]

That cover photo was hilarious! hahahaa

[@Lestant6]

I played world of darkness games in roll20. In over 20 years of playing I have never rolled as many '1's as I did when I was using the roll20 roller. For larger dice pools we certainly broke up the rolls into dice pools of 5 to make sure it felt more realistic.

[@Afrancis1968]

There was a recent encounter I did where the bard of the party was facing a CR 13 arch mage elf and had just suffered a cone of cold. I didn't really think about it until the encounter was happening that this mage has counter spell and adv on cha checks. So, I had him cast the spell without casting counter spell (because the arch mage felt too cocky to think that the spell would work) and the spell save had beat the save by 1. I knew that if I had kept going this character would die and that would be a years worth of dnd just down the drain because of an unfair encounter. So, I decided that the bards charm worked and he was able to flee with his life.

[@baltsosser]

This the DM is the elder god as far as s I know, the creator of the realm. and the players are merely Demigod in that world. That has always been my understanding from high school prior to the first Guns and Roses album being dropped

[@PirateMagoo]

Love the show, thanks for all the hard work!

[@Joestone1984]

I have never looked at Pruitt in such a way before, it’s making me question all kinds of things about myself.

[@itsallfunandgames723]

The Empire Strikes Back with the DM fudging looks like The Empire Strikes Back. XD

[@CollinBuckman]

"I have altered the roll, pray I do not alter it further."

[@PestoPosta]

My very simple rule of thumb for fudging, is simply this, "Does X seem plausible given the current situation in the world." If it is plausible, that is where your wiggle room is. You are players are in a dungeon, they are reasonably positive they have cleared it, is it plausible your players missed a roaming band or something. If yes, and you feel it appropriate, feel free to fudge in the extra roaming band of X.

[@nedaraid3372]

Wow, that split-screen! This show keeps on upgrading their visuals.

[@crystalheath6510]

I personally roll all my combat dice out in the open. I don't like using a DM screen because it separates me from my players and the battle map. I just use a book or hand to block rolls for things like deceptions, insights or enemy stealths. I also have used a pre-roll list for those things - this is a card of die rolls made before the session and each time i need to roll an insight, perception or deception from an npc or enemy i just take the next number on the list.

[@valasafantastic1055]

That pre rolled card thing is great! I just may use that!

[@CaptainBG01]

Recently in a game I ran, the players finally encountered the baddie that the last few months had been leading up to, and when the fight actually happened between them, I couldn't roll anything over a 5 for the entire fight, I literally never hit the PCs once. The table talk afterwards was nothing but "How the hell did they ever become a threat and conquer a kingdom?" and "Wow, that fight was easier than the lieutenant we fought last session.". That was one time I actually wished I fudged the dice, because it turned this character I had built up into a wet fart.

[@Nickman826]

We steamrolled Strahd like that lol. We all agreed it was fun but like the entire final fight with the Count was full of failed Vampire attack rolls

[@Thornspyre81]

I always make my end game bbeg have a sizable attack mod to prevent such occurences

[@Nickman826]

@@Thornspyre81 yeah that makes sense

[@jloren4647]

Damn, Jim! You clean up well. Keep up the good work, man!

[@paulcoy9060]

I am a solid fan of The Knights Of The Dinner Table saying, "Let the dice fall where they may." If you roll the dice, do it in front of everyone, right in the center of the table. If you don't want to risk it, then employ a narrative segue and both you and the player explain what happened when the Fighter accidentally threw the Bag of Holding into the Warp Core.

[@iansanderson2567]

Some times you have to change dice, I was running a battle using Modified Pathfinder, for adventures in HARN, fighting is dangerous and they had got tough, so in the adventure called Night of the Orcs they got caught in a Orc Swarm. This will test them I thought, after two separate encounters I had not hit them once, looked at the dice and realised I had been using an Old 20 Sided D10. I told the players as I trough the dice into the corner, they all started laughing , I changed dice and they all stopped laughing.

[@codexnecrogeddon]

To hide rolls in Roll20, I have another session open simultaneously on my second monitor where I roll everything as the DM while all the players are in the first session.

[@jamalcolmson]

I am now going to stat up an actual quantum ogre. It knows teleport and misty step.

[@MrGameadd1ct]

Great discussion as always. The idea of can the DM cheat is one I grapple with a lot. I am very rules loving person, and not just in RPGs, but in everything. I wonder how things would be if there were written rules on GMing and not just the social contract. Just because I know that as a DM sometimes it can be hard to be impartial.

[@Kermit_the_frog]

Guys, great show! Unrelated, where can I get that fantastic steampunk wall lamp system in the back?

[@blackhawk8920]

I gave my players in almost a 2 year campaign (longest playing player about a year and half) a time bomb/scroll one time use to travel back in time 15 minutes. Last week they used to avoid a tpk and ran right back to the bad demons.

[@jamesmcclure6798]

Your thumbnails are always good, but damn it if this one doesn't kill me everytime I see it scrolling through your videos.

[@thatindiandude4602]

The thumbnail. That moment when the clickable lives up to the hype:D

[@ScotCarnage]

Can you do a video on how to handle PCs when the player cant make it to the game