Comparing Two Heads That Flow Close to the Same

[@QXZ9027MKII]

Top notch sir, Much obliged for the insight.

[@jasonwells2988]

Excellent info. Thanks for your time to educate

[@cfmechanic]

Still wanna see you go over how to plumb the coolant ports on a brodix dragon slayer or the head hunter. Currently mine are plugged just looking for what's the best to do

[@richardsmith-qy6vl]

I really liked this video very interesting I kinda like the head hunter heads with the raised runners the others look like they don't have much room to mill them runners look really low but might just be me.

[@drcolster]

Eric , can i ask, how many SBC heads like those have you set up for .900" to 1.00" lift cams ??... How many at .800" and bellow ??

[@terrysmith8133]

what video shows these heads on an engine and the dyno sheet?

[@oneslows1376]

What do you think the difference in power would be if both sets of heads were dynoed on the same engine, leaving everything else the same?

[@WeingartnerRacing]

Depends on the combination.

[@oneslows1376]

I agree. Say a 400 inch engine with .700 lift, somewhere in the 250s for duration

[@blueridgemountainprepper2166]

Interesting stuff, I may contact you. Tell you what I'd like to do or try and see what head you recommend. If I get a set from you I'd also want you ti improve um as much as possible. Im definitely a fan of lightweight valve train components, I've always been on the weak side of spring pressures to help reduce drag/friction etc. Everything adds up, I'm a lower rpm guy so you can get by with it to a degree....

[@HPRaceDevelopment]

i need a source on cnc digitize and cut - small single cylinder stuff - any suggestion?

[@E.T.GARAGE]

Very informative, it's very good info especially for someone who may be more interested in power through out the rpm range and not just peak power.

[@jrdmotorsports9718]

That is what EVERYONE should be more concerned with. Peak means nothing.

[@mk-xg2kt]

your videos are never too long. and I like them, thank you

[@jasonritter2492]

I need to buy a set of these head hunters for a 400 sbc f1x-12 setup with the ms91 intake port matched.

[@dannymccarty344]

Don't waste your time and money. I put a jet engine in mine. The chick's dig me....

[@jasonritter2492]

@@dannymccarty344 jet engine is a waste of time and money in my book and not impressive at the track. And I have a set of Curtis Boggs custom blower bbc head hunter heads that I just put on my 540 f3-121 and I'm very happy with them. And I think they'd be a good head for the combo. And more like the chick probably laugh at it.

[@rogerowens5669]

That's what I was wondering Port velocity

[@BigWood3131]

Great informative video. I would like to see your numbers with different variables on valve cuts. I just did a sbc dart AFR 427 cu, 74/220- 10.3-1 and was able to gain a bit through valve setback cutting. Still never enough. Thanks

[@johnbaker3549]

Don't you think a certain amount of exhaust flow is necessary? For a given amount of intake flow. SBF comes to mind, seems to be choked till you get a good exhaust port, regardless of intake flow numbers.

[@jrdmotorsports9718]

Certain exhaust SIZE, yes. Wouldn't be too concerned with what it "flows" on a bench.

[@johnbaker3549]

I have an old set of trick flow high port cast iron heads 1.94/1.6 valve package, and world product Windsor jr's. 1.94/1.6 valves. Nearly 100 HP. Difference on the same SBF engine. I think exhaust flow has something to do with that.

[@jrdmotorsports9718]

@@johnbaker3549 Nope. The fact that the World heads are, for the lack of a better term, garbage, has everything to do with that. Can't tell me they make more than the TF heads... nothing to do it exhaust "flow".

[@jrdmotorsports9718]

@@johnbaker3549 You are also comparing apples to oranges.

[@docsmallblock6584]

You pointed out some things I don't think a lot of people either know about, or don't care about such as velocity. Most are just all about them flow numbers, the bigger the better. Great explanation.👍🏻

[@jrdmotorsports9718]

Just an FYI, concentrating on "velocity" can get you into just as much trouble as worrying about what cfm number it is. Cross sectional area is key, for each application. Period.

[@jimthomas777]

Old Double Hump heads with ported valve runners and 58cc Chambers and Manley Stainless Steel valves and single shim head gaskets gets no complaints on my 11:1 Forged pistons in my Small Block 327 making 475hp

[@waynepegram3262]

Would the ovals work well with a 8k rpm 302?

[@KingJT80]

These are SBC heads. For something like that you probably could use a trick flow 11r 205cc with 56cc chamber and a domed piston

[@waynepegram3262]

@@KingJT80 302 SBC

[@KingJT80]

@@waynepegram3262 oh you wouldn't even need a head like this .he'd probably tell you an AFR 195 would work off the shelf with a Solid roller upgrade

[@jrdmotorsports9718]

To answer your actual question, and not just tell you what you need... yes, an oval shape will work on anything as long as you can achieve the cross section sizes in the port needed for that rpm.

[@KingJT80]

@@jrdmotorsports9718 that's actually very correct I just didn't want this guy going out and buying super expensive heads to turn a 302 8k

[@a1minutekeyservice784]

Curious with a egg shaped intake port. I believe is was a 327 Chevy Super Stock motor that had a lot of welding to achieve small on top and large radius on bottom. Sorry I do not know cam specs.

[@NoferTrunions]

Any comments on the 122 lSA of the LS9 cam making the most NA HP for factory LS cams?

[@baby-sharkgto4902]

It's not because of the wide assed LSA but because of the lift and duration.

[@NoferTrunions]

@@baby-sharkgto4902 Then why was a 122 LSA used?

[@KingJT80]

@@NoferTrunions that's a question for a cam grinder they'll be able to tell why they did that. There is a good reason I'm sure. You ever see some pro stock nhra cams? Pretty wide LSA for an NA application

[@NoferTrunions]

@@KingJT80 I don't think a cam tech guy is going to chit chat about 122* LSA's - mainly because they will not sell you a big LSA cam if you don't ask for it. So again, why? Based on this fact, one might speculate the LS9 LSA exists for fuel economy or emissions. NOTE: There is NO discussion of dyno testing builds for fuel economy or trying to get 5 gas analyzer info for dyno pulls which would shed light on a myriad of issues. In The Beginning, trying to A/F ratio was the Holy Grail. I think HC and CO are next in line. I'm grasping at straws. I have found absolutely no commentary (Viper, LS, HAMB, Engine Masters) on the LS9 cam 122 LSA. When I first learned about it, I thought this rewrites what we "thought" we knew about camshaft timing. When asking around everywhere I could think of, ...crickets. It's like no one was even interested in the "discovery" of 122 LSA's being used. Your info on Pro Stock using big LSA's makes me think the huge curations and lifts cannot tolerate a conventional LSA which results in too much overlap. But again, I'm talking to myself because no one has ever said a peep about why big LSA's are showing up. If you step out of the box, overlap at first glance seems like something you don't want: both valves open at the same time. But it was necessary because cam profiles could only produce so much acceleration. So to deal with it, exhaust tuning evolved to take advantage of this overlap. HYPOTHESES: 1) With the evolution of factory roller cams, the ability to reduce overlap was now possible. 2) Reduced overlap appears to be appears in Pro Stock and factory daily driver cars. If i had to guess, Pro Stock probably for power (obviously), but for 3) Factory cars, I'm guessing fuel economy. 4) LS9 appears only in GM supercharged engines but why isn't it showing up in NA engines? There doesn't seem to be a tiny big of big LSA in GM NA engines. 5) If you compare NA vs Supercharged, you might speculate the "adder" for NA is the Exhaust, while the "adder" for Supercharged is, well, the supercharging. With supercharging being a much stronger adder, you don't want to foul things up by keeping overlap around - so get rid of it.

[@KingJT80]

@@NoferTrunions I'm not talking about going to cam tech guys I'm talking about an actual cam grinder like Chris straub or people who work on that stuff I bet you'll get an answer if you go to yellow bullet or speed talk

[@ericbrandt829]

Those oval port heads look like late 70's Chrysler W2 heads for the 340/360 Chrysler......

[@yurimodin7333]

some ideas get shelved for too long. The GM Vortec head and the Dodge Magnum heads are basically the same idea as the Boss 302 heads from 30 years earlier.

[@alonzahanks1182]

you failed to say what those monsters are going on and use other than 400 lol great video and comments your like the first to say something other than max cfm matters lol a friend put it to me this way purpose built forced induction through pop up high compression piston deck height cubic inches stroke and cam that support the type of mid range and high range flow and dialing in the intake and exaust ballance on top of that . and more or how a 285 intake runner can kick butt on a 210 runner lol and I liked the colored graphs. but seeing the faster air on bottom I have to ask is a vortec tumble a reverse tumble or over the top? the round top of exaust port got me thinking.

[@TheRdub82]

Would you say the SBF Head Hunter have more potential than the SBC?

[@jrdmotorsports9718]

Apples and oranges.

[@TheRdub82]

@@jrdmotorsports9718 thanks for the comment, can yiu elaborate a bit?

[@jrdmotorsports9718]

@@TheRdub82 Two completely different heads, runner lengths, cross sections, and port/valve layouts. To compare them is silly because they would react completely different, even on the same bore size. Look at port offset, overall runner length. Etc... Not much you can compare, other than a rated flow number, which means nothing, even if they were the same.

[@TheRdub82]

@@jrdmotorsports9718 thanks for that. They are designed cometely different between SBC and SBF.

[@jrdmotorsports9718]

@@TheRdub82 Yes. Two different animals. Anytime. 🤘

[@NightWrencher]

My favorite channel full of information I dont understand 🤣

[@jeancharlesrabaux5658]

Faut plus sans beter avec big blok ou smal blok prenait un ls1 v12 lui avec deux turbo une bonne transmission et adieux tout le monde c est ca que beater bomb doit avoir un v12 ls1

[@tpeace2160]

Like the oval ports what is the valve angle ?

[@WeingartnerRacing]

23

[@ppernett1]

Skinny long port, more air speed. Wide and short slower speed but more volume. Makes sense that the wider port favors high rpm. Narrow port favors low end torque…. Sort of, it’s not all that simple, but general rule.

[@stuartbuckley8720]

I like the longer videos because of more information. Thanks Eric!

[@ppatricktt]

Why are you not using stahl pattern?

[@WeingartnerRacing]

I paid $2300 for the headers and I’m not doing it again.

[@ppatricktt]

@@WeingartnerRacing Ok let me rephrase the question, why are you not using castings with duel pattern, or shahl? If I was to buy sbc heads, given the choice I would buy stahl. Header selection is limited but if your having headers made the header guy would rather shahl. Is there are reason not to? You talked about not being able to open the exhaust ports up because of bolt holes but it seems like the simple answer is to go with stahl. Would there be enough gain with opening up exhaust ports using heads with stahl pattern on to justify putting new flanges on your headers?

[@stevenkirk2563]

Why port till the heads have no metal left? Would it m as Le any real diff in glow?

[@timrayburn2461]

I have watched very few of your videos iust one time.Thanks for making me think

[@brentonk461]

23° head flow is good. 👍 the other one needs more work

[@WeingartnerRacing]

They are both 23degree.

[@jrdmotorsports9718]

Who decides that it needs more? Do you know the application? Is it yours? This discrediting shit hits a nerve by all you experts who are trying to compare shit you know nothing about. A head only needs what is required for the engine combination and end goal. Not what ignorant commenters think it needs. Ignorance truly is bliss. 🙄

[@doomman700]

Two heads that flow the same. The one with the smallest ports

[@jrdmotorsports9718]

Doesn't work that way. Except maybe for a tow truck.

[@c41man]

The small ports are good for low rpm torque. Larger ports can support higher peak numbers.

[@jrdmotorsports9718]

@@c41man On what cubic inch? What are you using as a comparison? Bigger engines need larger ports, doesn't mean it will lose torque. It's all relative to the application. Blanket statements like that just confuse people that don't know better. Just sayin.

[@doomman700]

@@jrdmotorsports9718 if they flow the same numbers, then they flow the same air at max. Therefore I want the smaller port for velocity and yes I am a good head porter.

[@jrdmotorsports9718]

@@doomman700 No offense, but if you WERE a good head porter, you would understand why flow numbers mean nothing when compared to the correct runner design for each application. You are crutching any progress in what you are doing the second you compare heads by a flow bench number. "Velocity" will come if the port is right, regardless what bench tells you. Just sayin.

[@jakewade7388]

Awesome info Eric! Love your videos!

[@briankiker8272]

I got scanned. Big block Chevrolet heads an 3000.00 .Snowberry Georgia.. I won't make that mistake again. I had 2 strokes and this now getting back home things..

[@frankzalar5755]

What's your S10 weigh with u in it

[@WeingartnerRacing]

3200

[@rogerowens5669]

Eric a important question at least to me around 2000 they created a software that was called desktop Dino it was nowhere near accurate!" I'm just now getting back into the business where can I access software that is more accurate?? I mean that's been 20 years🤣 if you can help me out I'd appreciate it 🤝 great video as usual have a wonderful day🤙RDO from bulletproof engine design✍

[@racerd9669]

No matter what bench you are testing on, the only flow numbers that matter are the mid-lift flow numbers. If the head does not flow 300cfm @ .400 lift it is not a good port. That simple.

[@WeingartnerRacing]

You are so wrong.

[@racerd9669]

@@WeingartnerRacing Eric, you need to look at NASCAR engine spintron testing. Even with cams of .650 lift the air is only moving in the .400 to .500 valve lift range.

[@shvrdavid]

@@racerd9669 You do realize that there usually isn't a crankshaft in an engine when it is on a spintron? It is kind of hard to put the lasers needed in the cylinders otherwise. There is a dummy shaft installed instead of a crankshaft to control oiling, but you already knew that didn't you. The whole point of a spintron is to isolate valvetrain issues, without other vibrations interfering. And FYI, I have been present at more than a few spintron sessions...

[@WeingartnerRacing]

@@racerd9669 the guy before me nailed it but spintron doesn’t measure airflow only valve movements. The air still moves at higher lifts.

[@racerd9669]

@@WeingartnerRacing You have your information wrong.

[@colbyhutzellfishingvideos4365]

The oval port by far, the small corner radius in the rectagular ports are wasting volume, it may flow the same but the "quality" of that flow is better in an oval port.

[@cfmechanic]

Got scammed myself recently trying to buy parts

[@n2omike]

Interesting about wanting velocity to increase as it approaches the valve. I had assumed you would want it to slow down a little in order to make the turn across the short side without going turbulent. Does this still apply with a Ford TFS Twisted Wedge that has a low port height and shallow valve angle?

[@edpetrocelli2633]

I`m no head expert but I`ve heard John Kaase say that exact same thing. He was talking about the "385" series heads and the difference on his SR-71`s. Cylinder head stuff seems like Voodoo to me. Hard to make sense out of it

[@jrdmotorsports9718]

It depends on where the minimum cross section is in the intake tract. If at the pinch, yes, it needs to be bigger to slow down over the turn... application specific.

[@paulferreira9060]

Eric are your custom valve seat cutters sized to cut the throat to a specific size ? Some of the Goodson cutters I use will cut in just below the seat ring but sometimes I find myself having to open the the throat up. Would like to see some info on different brands of cutters and what you like and don’t like . Thanks really enjoy the channel . Paul

[@bdugle1]

I know your software says the 406 makes many fewer lb-ft than the 434, but I’m guessing that raised port is going to make lots more than predicted. Maybe close to the 434, although 28 cu in and nearly 2 points of compression is a lot to make up. Just wondering, why the huge chambers on the Head Hunters? Even with a supercharger, if you run E85 you should be able to run more compression than 9.8. Then it’s a pulley change to back off for 91 on the street. With a turbo it would be a waste gate adjustment…although that’s possibly going to have spool-up issues if you’re racing anything but the clock. I love that raised port, super efficient! It just keeps flowing up to 1”. Wow!

[@davidreed6070]

The head Hunter on a smaller ci engine. The dragon slayer on a larger engine, I would think.

[@jrdmotorsports9718]

In certain applications, like what those heads were ported for, yes. Just not in EVERY application. Just depends on where you want the power. Flow numbers don't tell you that.

[@davidreed6070]

@@jrdmotorsports9718 way back when everyone built na, I would use mid lift flow numbers for ci the head was feeding to decide how much overlap to use. I am lucky the head man and I raced together so I got heads to spec.

[@jrdmotorsports9718]

@@davidreed6070 Everyone has their own way, and I don't judge those who do. What I will say is, I don't use flow numbers as a determining factor for anything. My fastest engines run heads I have ported that never saw a bench. It's a cool tool if selling heads is your thing, but can and does lie to you.

[@davidreed6070]

@@jrdmotorsports9718 no flow #s don't determine power curve. Of course it is a combination of all, but the camshaft spec mostly determines power range,.now I'm talking my experience and I don't claim to be any guru. Have you done turbo motors. I would like to talk to someone in the know about that.

[@jrdmotorsports9718]

@@davidreed6070 They have to work together. Really good heads done right will help carry a cam profile normally considered to he on the small side, where is a junk port won't do much and needs the cam to help it. Yes, I build engines that run turbos.

[@patrickmoore1017]

Great information. Those Head Hunters are expensive rigs, I guess because they are raised runners.

[@TheSaxon25]

Sorry about your helmet! What a guy 🍻

[@roberthunt3000]

vay.fyi pleasurable