Stock LS3 Heads vs AFR Enforcer LS3 Dyno Battle

[@xozindustries7451]

Great information about the LS MSD set up, I’ve ever heard that before, most people probably have no idea

[@bowsertownes]

Niiiice witness marks on the heads from the piston. I remember you saying mine was close, look at you! Results are a touch shy of my 406 3.9 stroke 4.065 setup with stock 821 heads no valve job. Like it , great tourqe numbers tho! Beat me there!

[@Fatt-billy.racing]

I like the long videos I learn more

[@WeingartnerRacing]

You are the rarity. Most complain

[@shane-222]

@@WeingartnerRacing28 mins of solid gold!❤

[@raymondgoshorn2005]

@@WeingartnerRacing There are hundreds of your followers that love your vids no matter how long! Ask ALL of them to give u a 1 for short vids, and a 2 for long vids! I bet you come almost even on the result

[@arturozarate1752]

@@WeingartnerRacing the longer the better man.

[@Jeffsa12]

I suspect the reason for so little difference, is both heads flow enough to support around 650hp. The test engine is only making 560hp, with a really tiny cam. I think the reason this engine makes a lot of power at a pretty high RPM compared to a SBC is the heads flow a lot, efficient shallow valve inclination angle combined with a very high from the deck runner floor. Beginning to think runner shape ie: straighter, may be the most important factor. Love to see this with a bigger cam @ around .700 lift and 240 dur@.050.

[@WeingartnerRacing]

I did test a bigger cam that I will show in a later video.

[@DavidB7474]

@@Jeffsa12 check the BTR Brian Tooley racing website, that small cam is designed for a mild stock truck with stock heads. I’m guessing why Eric W started with that.

[@DavidB7474]

I’m checking prices on the web for cylinder heads. Serious heads are $2k- $5500 a set. Scat 408 rotating assembly, around $3200. Like the sign says, how fast you want to go depends on how much you have to spend.

[@arturozarate1752]

Try building a Ford FE. Smh....use the stock heads with porting. I've built 3 418's this year with the 821s and 600 @ at the crank is easy. 710 @ 12:1 on 93 @ 7k is possible. Expensive though...but possible.

[@DavidB7474]

@@arturozarate1752 so what’s a 418? Bore and stroke? What block?

[@arturozarate1752]

@@DavidB7474 4.080 x 4.000 GM 6.2 aluminum block

[@arturozarate1752]

@@DavidB7474 didn't the 821 head give it away?

[@arturozarate1752]

@@DavidB7474 I usually use a JE custom piston and it's pretty light. Molnar rod and the lightest crank I can find. The pistons use a 0.8, 0.8, 1.2 ring pack from Total Seal with lateral gas ports. I toss the second ring and relieve the tension on the oil expander. With all 8 assemblies in and torqued I like to see 10 to 12 lbs of turning torque. Any other questions?

[@jimkillen1065]

Appreciate the videos and information

[@chevyrc3623]

Nice dyno comparison so at least those heads did better and really to me since the higher lift flow didn't really gain much to much i guess that's why it didn't gain much in power at least i didn't loose. So great testing as always

[@pk3275]

You'll have to try some Higgins heads from Australia.

[@WeingartnerRacing]

Someday i hope

[@OEMishGarage]

I think gaining 8-10 HP across the entire curve is pretty good considering it is being done with the smaller intake runner and valve, and is AFR's entry-level Enforcer line. I'd be curious to see how the head performs with the clean-up work that David Vizard showed on his video. Dyno numbers aside, I'm willing to bet that these heads will have far superior driving characteristics and be far less picky about camshaft specs on a 4.00" bore than the stock LS3s.

[@chrisreynolds6520]

The new trend is adapting GenV LT heads. They work extremely well to for a stock GM casting.

[@chriswhite8860]

it doesnt look huge but looking at the avg numbers it should show on the track, not as much as I wouldve expected though.

[@DavidB7474]

Maybe this will evolve into testing efi and carb intakes. The factory efi LS intakes are (reportedly)pretty dam good compared to many after market big name intakes.

[@lukesimeon5756]

Very good test thanks

[@freeradical6390]

I was always a bigger fan of the Juice Lee, vs the Truck Norris

[@arturozarate1752]

😂😂😂😂😂

[@baby-sharkgto4902]

Awesome work! Ported 243’s are better than the stock LS3’s and will probably be better than the Enforcer LS3 head, depending on how far you went with the 243. The LS3 Enforcer is kind of entry level.

[@WeingartnerRacing]

Not on my flowbench they are. 243 ported about 312cfm stock ls3 about 318 but low lift is much better.

[@baby-sharkgto4902]

@@WeingartnerRacing oh I see. I watched another popular video of Cnc’d 243’s outperforming LS3 heads. Maybe that means the result's will vary or different testing methods. Maybe my memory is failing me… probably the latter

[@KM-os4be]

Thanks!

[@shanerorko8076]

I would like to see how the enforcers go after you port them with both cams, I know you probably don't have the resources to do all these tests.

[@jonathantrimble9369]

I really want to see what these afr enforcers can so once ported.

[@DavidB7474]

Have you heard of Frankenstein heads? I know they are based out of Weatherford Texas. Maybe they can sent you a set to dyno.

[@arturozarate1752]

😂😂😂😂😂😂 that would be nice. No offense to Eric or to Frank....but they're proud of their products and so busy. I drive there to ask for a place in line hoping that helps. When you're as busy as they are, time for free testing doesn't exist. I could be wrong though.

[@that1guy997]

Do you think the exhaust flow difference would be why the 823s were closer to the enforcers in peak power and if so, would you be willing to do some work to the exhaust of the enforcers for future testing?

[@travispfannmuller7717]

Darin Morgan has a video where he says the LS3 head is a great piece but I believe he said they wouldn't work well with a carberator

[@MarkSperlik]

With only a few horsepower gain from the AFR Enforcers, I would keep the stock heads and do a little porting to them and save some money vs buying the AFR Enforcers. I know everyone has a budget, but to me, those AFR Enforcer heads are greatly lacking and not really worth it for such minimal gain. 😐😒 If I am going to buy some AFR heads, I would rather get their fully CNC ported version ("Magnum" ?) line of heads if I had the money to spend for them vs the AFR Enforcer line. I would think their fully CNC ported Magnum heads would really kick some A.

[@DavidB7474]

I watched a video a while back. 408 is about as big as you can go with a stock block, anymore stroke and the piston comes too far out of the bottom of the bore. So it can work but the chance of you rocking a piston and it getting cockeyed going back up is very strong possibility. So aftermarket block I guess is how it’s fixed.

[@242bleek]

It comes out with any stroker crank. People just choose to ignore it.

[@troykerchenpoop]

I have rocker stands for the 243s if you want them. Ill dig around and see if i have the rockers still.

[@arturozarate1752]

@ 11:39 ....ok, just me thinking out load: At operating temp with a 0.041 gasket you'd have roughly 0.053 to 0.055 with an aluminum block and heads. NVMD.....I missed the cast iron 6.0l block. So.....0.047ish at operating temp give or take. Ugh....why the love taps ERIC!?!?!?! Is the piston out of the hole 0.030 and the short skirt can't stabilize the piston during dwell @ TDC?????

[@rogergm92]

Do you have a video/book that you sell on how to basic port a cathedral 5.3 heads?. Great video by the way thanks 🎉

[@Fatt-billy.racing]

I have noticed when running a carb vs efi. The carb like more timing then the efi. If you need a bigger cam I have one from mast motorsports I'll let you test.

[@WeingartnerRacing]

I have tested the Texas speed stage 2 but I plan to test a 234/248 on a 108 .650 lift.

[@DavidB7474]

So you’re using the BTR Brian Tooley Racing cam. .550 lift is kind of small. BTR has done a bunch of testing with the LT Direct injection engines. They are currently limited by fuel since they require 3200 psi at the fuel rail. Sorry side tracked. That’s a small cam, but the chuck norris cam is designed for basically stock engines according to BTR website. I’ve seen LS heads you can put an altoids tin in the intake port. This was years ago someplace had them displayed at good guys.

[@DavidB7474]

To clarify this 408 cid. 6.0 cast iron block 4.030 bore 4.000 stroke 6.125 rods That’s a big increase from a stock 4.000 bore and 3.622 6.0 stroke. This correct?

[@raymondgoshorn2005]

This would make it a 408 I believe, so yes, there is enough to make a substantial amount of difference; 364.12 to 408.18; please note LY6 come's with LS3 "type heads" while the LQ4 and the LQ9 come with 317 heads. I do have a set of 317 heads but they are HUGE bath tub's and would estimate their compression to be about 9.3 -1 on the LQ4, while the LQ9 is higher, about 9.6-1 compression. The LS3 heads I have are genuine GM new LS3 heads w/ the lightweight intakes etc.. , makes their compression with flat top's about 9.8 to 10-1 comp. Just some of my notes; I hope they help?.

[@rotaryray]

I have a GM performance parts LS3 dual plane intake manifold. I read about it in an engine Masters 408 , but I've never seen it ran or compared to anything. I'll send it to you if you'll test it.

[@WeingartnerRacing]

Send it I can test.

[@smilsmff]

super secret cam specs? i could not find any, oh thanks for posting. so am I right to say smaller port head has Higher torque and also makes more power here?

[@WeingartnerRacing]

It’s the btr truck Norris. Specs are in the video.

[@hydrocarbon82]

It's a fairly conservative cam, but generally has a much more torque below 4500 vs bigger cams. A bigger cam would easily make 50-75 more peak while hurting low-end.

[@smilsmff]

@@WeingartnerRacing Thank you I jumped on too early.

[@bartpang]

I wouldn't worry about shaft rockers with a 408. You won't be turning it over 7500. You definitely need to get some bigger cams to see much difference with what you are testing.

[@DavidB7474]

Well the Kyle Tuckers, Detroit speed iroc runs a 388 cid LS, destroked 427 with 3.625 stroke and it rpm’s like crazy, 8500 rpm shifts with a hydraulic roller. The pedestal mount is basically a less expensive shaft rocker setup. In gen 1 sbc engines, I’ve seen solid roller cams with .750 lift go 9700rpm, 400 sbc with 4.125 bore, 3.48 stroke 377 cid. Yeah I was shocked too. And that was no shaft rockers in that set up either.

[@PontiacLS]

Awesome video Where did you buy those LS covers. And how do I get your book on the LS stuff thank you

[@WeingartnerRacing]

The links are in the description of this video.

[@PontiacLS]

​@@WeingartnerRacing Where did you get the valve covers

[@jpgasper]

If they were the same valve size would you expect the enforcer to make even more power? Also if the exhaust port flowed anywhere near the same would you expect that to increase the overall output throughout the curve as well?

[@Hjfvvdst]

Isn't it possible one head burn rate is different than the other? So possibly one head could want or need a different timing curve?

[@WeingartnerRacing]

It’s possible but I did try multiple timing changes with the afr heads with little change.

[@timothybayliss6680]

With the same intake, exhaust and camshaft you need a really big change in compression or chamber design or both to have a change in the actual curve. Lots of time you will get something like a global change, but unless it's something like a B/RB Chrysler going from an open to a closed chamber you aren't gonna have a huge change.

[@Hjfvvdst]

@@timothybayliss6680 I was thinking more on the lines of quench area chamber shape fast burn type. But thinking further I assume most new head chamber designs are much better than in the past. So I assume most factory and aftermarket heads chambers are pretty efficient nowadays. So I should have thought a little longer about what he is working with.

[@shane-222]

@@timothybayliss6680it looks eerily like a compression ratio increase / timing change. I too am thinking chamber shape / burn rate as the only variable left.

[@davidphillips3953]

More flow, more velocity, more swirl barely any more power...?

[@JohnnyAnderson1]

Anyone know if these would fit on a 3.898 LS1 bore size? Would be nice if they did with the slightly smaller intake valve and closer placement to the exhaust valve.

[@mack8940]

they have a small bore ls3 hea now by promaxx. 2080 valve.

[@JohnnyAnderson1]

@@mack8940 Tha KS didn't even know about those, I can't find any dynos of them.

[@DavidB7474]

I want to throw this out there, since I’m not an LS swap person. All my stuff is gen 1 sbc stuff. So if the “sbc is worthless” comments start, then all of you LS swapping can send all your sbc gen 1 stuff to me for free since it’s worthless junk. Just saying. Cause times are tough and I’m broker than Eric is. 😂😂😂🤣🤣

[@youngracingengines]

Are you planning on testing the Liberty heads on this engine (the ones with .550 longer valves)?

[@WeingartnerRacing]

No the set I was going to do had seats that crumbled and liberty didn’t want to do anything about it.

[@youngracingengines]

@@WeingartnerRacing That really sucks, I have a set and so do a couple friends :(

[@6.liter-beater]

We need Stickers and shirts on the website 👀

[@WeingartnerRacing]

The are on my online store. The link is on the home page of my website.

[@chevyrc3623]

How come the LS runs a lower timing degree than SBC even with the same carburetor what makes it have to run 29 degrees instead 36 I am learning so I was curious on how it works

[@Cowboy.underwater]

More efficient combustion chambers require less timing to make full power.

[@shane-222]

The flatter angle of the valve and more compact shape means the flame travels a shorter distance. That means the spark doesn’t need as much head start to make peak pressure at the optimal moment.

[@chevyrc3623]

@@Cowboy.underwater thank you

[@chevyrc3623]

@@shane-222 thank you

[@shane-222]

@@chevyrc3623 The 23 degrees were replaced by 18 degree bow tie and ran in cup cars for awhile, then they went sb2, which are also splayed like a big block. The LS is effectively the next step after the 18 degree bow tie and why people say the LS is basically a race head on a production motor.

[@timothybayliss6680]

I dont pay attention to coefficient of discharge. Its a stupid measure unless you are starting to cut metal.

[@rocksgsxr750]

Way too small of a Head and Cam Combo for a 408. It needs a 240ish duration cam and a Good Head. Something like those BPE heads you flowed 380’s with would work much better.

[@WeingartnerRacing]

I would wait for further videos. I tested a larger cam.

[@ryangulley2051]

What? Lmao not

[@rocksgsxr750]

@@ryangulley2051Typically duration goes up with displacement. This Cam is for a 5.3 and this engine is a 6.6.

[@rocksgsxr750]

@@WeingartnerRacing I’m interested to see what it makes. 👍🏼

[@rancherlee]

Different cams for different folks. I only have a 222/233 cam in my 408 with CNC'd 317 heads. Plays nice with a stock converter and pulls hard to 6500rpm. Perfect muscle car motor for my Chevelle. I'm a big fan of "smallish" cams + good heads for much broader power curves.

[@DavidB7474]

Hmm even stock these have compression that seems high for boost. How are all the junkyard engines lasting with turbos. I’m gonna guess the ring gapped stock 6.0 engines are making less hp than most think they are. Burnouts and roll racing doesn’t show numbers on the street. They sound good but without anything to judge by like a clock, mph or ET, kind of hard to get real world numbers like a dyno.

[@arturozarate1752]

11:1 @ 16lbs on E85 is manageable and streetable. A lot of people would find that crazy, but I've tried it and run it in client's cars. The camshaft has a lot to do with it. In the 60s GM ran a 12:1(I think but it was over 11:1) in a big block on pump gas. The trick was that the cam bled off with an early opening event. There's so much yet to learn. You can't trust what you read on forums.

[@DavidB7474]

@@arturozarate1752 you can’t compare 60’s fuel to e85, leaded fuel and high octane made a difference. But E85 seems to work. And with efi and ignition control works well. Those carbed boosted engines are crazy too. I had one station with e85 nearby and it closed, I found like 7 with the app.

[@arturozarate1752]

@@DavidB7474 sorry....I see what your saying. What I was trying to get across is the cam events.

[@arturozarate1752]

@@DavidB7474 and honestly I can't stand E85 fuel at any pump. It takes twice as much to one part of gasoline. Anyway just my 2 cents

[@DavidB7474]

@@arturozarate1752 if you need to buy your fuel in a 55 gallon drum. That’s pushing the term street car a bit far. That’s streetable race car, but not much of a street car. It’s like hot rods fasted street car articles with tubed drag cars and a trailer, those are not street cars. That’s move proof of throw enough money at something it’s a street car. If you have that kind of throw away money to buy race fuel for the street, then good for you, and more power to you. You can buy a demon 170, Camaro Zl1, corvette C8 Z06, mustang whatever model is top dog now and fill it with pump 93 and be fast and have all the options. And drive it every day to work. And those are 650-1000hp, street cars. I get that we give up some amenities to have our weekend cruisers and hot rods. I have dealt with lumpy camshafts and stall converters and no over driver, and no ac to have a fun shitbox and that’s by choice. But I can’t fill it up with pump fuel, yeah to hell with that. That is to much inconvenience to have to deal with.

[@jacksonbermingham2168]

My brother has a Texas speed 246-252 @ 108 /650ish lift with standard LS rockers 1.7. so spun a cam bearing and wiped a lobe. ran out of time for an event and put the shelf Texas speed cam @ 246-252 @110 same lift. the 108lsa is my pick.

[@DavidB7474]

I asked about stroking more than to 408 with stock blocks. Nelson Racing engines had a video “Why the LS is so good” At this 8:40 in the video it’s tells why you need and aftermarket block when you go with a large stroke crank. Don’t take my word for it. kzbin.info/www/bejne/jKTQk5WriNZso5Isi=18_uRuTCR6dt21vi

[@sethmiller9442]

I feel that the velocity/swirl/discharge coefficient is more important when rolling into the throttle quickly well below peak torque. I think the only way to tell a difference would be in a vehicle driving it. The AFR head might feel more responsive even though there’s not much difference on a dyno. Also. I’d like to see you put a cam in the Ls with near identical specs to the 406sbc and pick a head that matches the 227afrs as close as possible in CSA, valve size, flow and compression. To get as close of an SBC vs LS test as possible. Just because.

[@DavidB7474]

First test stock heads. So a late LS currently makes 425 net and your just over 565hp with a cam change? Small cam with .550 lift, but still 425 net hp is maybe around 500ish flywheel hp in stock form. Still 565 hp is 565hp. With a small cam change! Dam. Then with the AFR Heads you made 571 hp. Dam.

[@slows102]

It's also 408 cubic inches

[@arturozarate1752]

And try not to say that lift makes it big or small. Duration is the size factor. Sure lift is a viable value but not to say it's big or not. Duration.....

[@DavidB7474]

I see dollar signs. Lots of them. I get what Eric is doing he is testing his parts after porting. But the mix and match parts I see from the comments in this post. I do not think anyone here is going to surpass gm engineering, in terms of reliability, power or efficiency, without testing just like Eric is doing.

[@jeffreydurham5342]

22x, like it's some top secret shit. What a farce.

[@WeingartnerRacing]

I never said it was. I just said I would do a later video on it.

[@jeffreydurham5342]

@@WeingartnerRacing I was referring to the cam specs on the box, not anything you're doing. I just find it hilarious that they put the intake duration on there, and put an x on the last digit of the exhaust duration like anyone whith a wheel and indicator can't figure it out. Like it's some kind of magic.

[@GaryWhipple-q6w]

Wish someone would give me parts 😊

[@WeingartnerRacing]

They didn’t give it’s more try this then send it back. So I’m testing parts.

[@Rozay_300]

Do the afr mongoose heads

[@WeingartnerRacing]

I would love to if I had a set.