West Marches & Sandboxes, Explained

[@theDMLair]

🔥 DM LAIR PATREON | Get loads of D&D 5e and Pathfinder 2e adventures, traps, puzzles, monsters, and Foundry VTT modules to help you reduce your prep time and run amazing games! www.patreon.com/thedmlair

[@seanbergeman5793]

I use the 'shotgun' method of storytelling. Dozen or so small plots that will each lead to a bigger issue if they are not resolved. At the lower levels the party can catch about 8 or so and the ones they let slip evolve into the big bads and major plots

[@disodosid]

@@seanbergeman5793 Ngl, that's a baller method and I'm gunna yoink it 👀

[@lunarcouatl]

I hAtE tHiS I DiD nOt WaTcH tHiS aNd I aLlReDy KnOw It Is BaD😡😡😡

[@johnfielder2064]

I do the same throw a dozen plots at them and see what they pick up on, then run with that

[@SamuelSmith-e9q]

New to DnD and am plotting out a Homebrew campaign. This channel is informative and the host is likable, so just wanted to say, as a noob, I am finding your content helpful!

[@JoeFlamenco]

Good luck with your journey! Enjoy the ride and the friends you make along the way.

[@kgeo2686]

I don’t think a Player directed campaign and a campaign with a central story arc are mutually exclusive. I think it all depends on how much that central story arc railroads you. That being said this video was great! It really helped give me an broad awareness of my story telling methods. You're amazing! Thanks and keep on crushing it!

[@knaz7468]

Concur

[@dynestis2875]

Agreed

[@sterlinggecko3269]

you're reading my campaign notes. I'm trying to do episodic adventures with player-driven story arcs and then shove a campaign arc in there somewhere, in a fantasy version of New Orleans.

[@joshphillips7595]

Hi Luke. First time DM here. I am currently running my first campaign as a DM. Thanks to you and your extremely helpful videos, all 9 of the players (that's right. NINE!) at my table are having a blast and I think I'm having even more fun than they are. I really appreciate your content and I hope you continue to make content for us. Thank you.

[@tscoff]

I’m running a “campaign” right now now that doesn’t have a central story arc. It’s a ton of fun and you’re correct, it’s a ton of work for me as the DM.

[@chrisderhodes7629]

It’s also so much less works and stress on the gm, yeah?

[@tscoff]

@@chrisderhodes7629 It’s actually more work in a way. I need to create new engaging sessions every week that we play based on what the players decide to do. And there’s no central theme to circle back to.

[@chrisderhodes7629]

@@tscoff have you checked out Dolmenwood?

[@tscoff]

@@chrisderhodes7629 No. Thank you for the tip!

[@DramakilzU]

I like designing a somewhat open-ended world with a general predetermined plot, but I give the players a feeling of choice by allowing them to do whatever they want and even say no to the main quest line. However, I add some npc nudging and negative consequences if the party goes way off the path or ignores the main quest for too long. Also, all side quests are completely optional, but some offer decent rewards and important info related to the main story.

[@chrisderhodes7629]

Sounds like an illusion of choice.

[@DramakilzU]

@@chrisderhodes7629 What the players don’t know won’t hurt them.

[@Kobold_Bard]

@@chrisderhodes7629 That's not a bad thing. If the players believe that the choices are real, it adds to their fun. Also, if the players choose to ignore the main plot line, it offers the GM opportunities to create more situations for the players to get involved in; for example, if the BBEG's plans aren't stopped, the BBEG's plans start to influence what's going on in the area, and the BBEG gets more powerful, or gains more allies.

[@BiggerinRealLife]

I’m literally reading a book right now that’s completely changed my approach to world building that covers a lot of what your premise is building up to. It’s called The Gamemaster’s Guide to Proactive Roleplaying, and if you haven’t read it you should! It’s a really quick read and all my GM friends and I are really digging it. Goes along very well with a lot of the concepts you outlined here.

[@jamesm2577]

These are the kind of campaigns I normally run. Would be nice to see a more player focused companion video about not acting like chaos monkeys & getting upset about a lack of agency to abandon what they agreed to do in order to see how far they can push the GM's improv skills

[@GabeTetrault]

You don't suck. Some great advice here!

[@strikerdx2]

I love playing linear campaighns and i absolutely love GMing them. Yeah, you dont really choose what you do but you do choose how you do it. What npc you befrend, what changes your actions did effecting th plot. My players dont usually do much in terms of backstory hooks so i dont really need to do it, but you can actually integrate some of it in plot. Honestly, i'd take PF2e's Outlaws of Alkenstar over Kingmaker any day.

[@sleepinggiant4062]

Yep, it's good to have goals.

[@isaacweber9435]

I have not yet watched the video and don't know what your view is, but it's completely wrong.

[@Subject_Keter]

The thumbnail looks like what you would make as a parody of "people complaining about brainrot via brainrot videos"

[@iremainteague5653]

😂

[@chronos12121994]

He say that bacon is overated

[@chronos12121994]

I have lookee the video i swear he say that, im shocked

[@soldierbreed]

As someone who also have not watched i can confirm this

[@syrupchugger421]

You don't suck! Thanks for the video

[@MonkeyJedi99]

Fun thing about real-world railroads: They have switch points where the train can change direction, and stations where you can change which train you're riding.

[@orokusaki1243]

Beautiful! I'm so glad Luke has covered this, at long last! It does bring back some previous topics, as they are integral to the concept. The whole group having fun while playing, will always be paramount. However, many Players and GMs are merely scratching the surface of what Role Playing Games can do, and can be. This is typically what one sees as the GM being the primary narrator, and the PCs just react to what is thrown at them. - Play-style aside, certain assumptions are core to RPGs: Define the rules (how things function and interact in the game setting). Define the (immediate) setting. Find the Group's goals and respond by putting forth the reasonable/logical obstacles, in relation to what stakes are involved. Play to find out. The GM's prep is to know the rules of the game system, and know what is (im)possible/(un)likely in the setting. The GM's job is to adjudicate the rules, describe what the Characters sense and know in the setting, and provide the setting's feedback to what the PCs are doing. Reactive. The PC's prep is to know the premise of the setting and how their Character fits in the setting, and know enough of the rules of the game system to play their Character in the setting. The PCs' job is to interact within the setting, while formulating, pursuing, and exploring Character and Group goals. Proactive. - The goal is to interact with the setting, not the story: "Plots", "pacing", "arcs", and "beats" are the tools of authors, which result in a preconceived story, which then ends up being an interactive presentation - because the story is the goal. Emergent storytelling where the story arises as the game is played, but isn't the goal of gameplay, just a byproduct to fondly be looked back upon. If real life = gameplay, then you'll tell your grandkids the story of that gameplay's outcome, someday. - Railroads are certainly an express ride through the plots to the outcome the GM wants, though sometimes Players can railroad the group (AKA The Conductor). Either way, the story is almost certainly the goal of who is causing the railroad. Sandboxes certainly do facilitate gameplay that more readily leads to an emergent story, but again, the story should not be the goal. PCs free to interact with the setting is only as good as they are proactive in that setting. Linear is akin to a quest line, go down the path as far as possible (or desired), perhaps taking branches that are shortcuts, or taking other paths that turn out to be the long way 'round. This is closest to interacting with the setting, "one thing leads to another" is a linear concept. Whether episodic, or West Marches, or whatever else - they diverge from the point that the story emerges from gameplay - the goal is gameplay, not storycrafting. - I believe that there's been several splits in the conceptual path of Role Playing Games. These evolutions have been a result of different Player expectations, styles, and perspectives on playing - leading to development to support those things. Just have fun, but know that Role Playing Games are deeper than most are going. For those who want to learn more about this topic, there are some hidden gem examples of deep dives here on KZbin, by users: @Runeslinger, @The_CGA, @BlackLodgeGames, @RPGElite

[@ismirdochegal4804]

The sweet spot is in the middle. Do not have ONE Story that can only be explored by this ONE Railroad. Instead: have multiple smaller stories that the players can hop on and off as they please. And the best stories come from the players and what they make from a situation anyway.

[@atleast4566]

Nice Buc-ee's shirt. Also, having fun has always been the priority in my games. It's good for there to be a premise and I love a good story (as evidenced by the number of audiobooks I've listened to...) but if my players aren't enjoying that aspect of the session, we pivot. Communication is key, and getting feedback is the best way to determine if we're going "player directed" or kicking back and letting the convenient train station do it's thing.

[@MonkeyJedi99]

Bacon!!! P.S. Luke doesn't suck.

[@chaddemink7731]

You don't suck, Luke! Love ya, brother, as well as your videos!

[@MonkeyJedi99]

Bacon!

[@nathanendres7638]

Nice to see you taking a look at the old school style of play. I will say your game doesn’t have to look episodic especially if you’re working with 1:1 time. It actually starts to feel like a living breathing world. Also, some of the best villains come from happy random events your players create.

[@knaz7468]

Cool video, good topic. I agree with pretty much everything you said. The term "railroad" is a bit confusing because at some point (even one session long) there has to be SOME sort of cohesive story arc that is linear. In engineering we call it "piece-wise linear" because you can zoom out and see a very non-linear curve in total, but if you zoom in close enough it always looks linear per small section. Otherwise, you might as well run a hex crawl "random encounter" campaign. Which is fine, but usually lacks a high level story arc.

[@trainer1kali]

You're a very good dm (as far as I can hypothesize based on the info you are giving), and I appreciate your advice and sharing game running experience. I owe you a lot of my good games!

[@Doodle1776]

It's how I do it, there is no BBEG in my games, no story arch, just an open world that I have change and react to what the players do. A host of little bad guys they can interact with and defeat who do their things and the game is fully in the hands of the players. I don't just play lip service to "players create the story" while I'm actually creating it and they're playing through it. My players actually make the story. They have full control of the games direction and it means that if they don't go somewhere you don't move it to somewhere else to force them to do it. I currently have 48 adventures in the region that they're in and I'm always expanding it with new ideas. It's amazingly freeing because I am not forced having to make some goofy story arch and forcing adventures to make sense in a larger arch. I just create adventures that sound cool or fun to me. My weeknight group just wrapped up session #64, my weekend groups are in sessions #12 and #8, all played like this. You also have to let the dice decide more of the game and give up the direction to both the players and the rolls falling where they may. Be it player rolls or GM rolls, including treasure and events all need to be given up to the dice and see where it goes. For example, one group ignored a quest for a while so I rolled to see if some other group came by and did it for them. The dice decided that yes, and when the players traveled days back to finally do said adventure it was too late and the world had moved on.

[@SamBrockmann]

That sounds like a goddamn mess. 😂😂

[@TruthKeepersOfficialHD2]

​@@SamBrockmann it is My former DM, my best friend, does the same thing. He just drops us in and lets the chaos unfold. It's fun for like: 10 3 hour sessions, and that was us when we have an awful player who purposely made an evil character in a party that constantly split up and wasn't a team at all, and then acted surprised when my character just had enough of his necrotic bs and attacked him (I held it back for 2 zombie-overdriven cities because of him don't look at me like that). I mean it was funny shenanigans for a bit but we just weren't friends at the table either, because we kept on arguing and each of us wanted to do something completely different, but because it was a sandbox and there was no shared goal to accomplish our DM had no way of settling it down with logic and facts. Currently I'm trying to make a homebrew world and stone set rules like any other sane DM would (yes we had very few and very loose rules on top. It was fun for us to mess around but it wasn't D&D at all and any proper player would bleach their eyes out if they saw us). I don't even think they will like playing by the rules and the fact I have stories they follow directly (I even go as far as making like 6 separate stories into one campaign and they will settle on one as they go). I'm afraid I'm at the wrong table and because we are friends irl, I have a feeling the friendship will break over these playstyle differences.

[@SamBrockmann]

@richardzaloudek8208 , well, thing a lot of folks forget is that D&D's base rules are designed to allow a certain amount of samdboxing. But the best adventures are "limited sandboxes", in my opinion. It's like *Legend of Zelda* series or *The Elder Games* series. Sure, you can spend time doing all the optional stuff, but if you want to progress the game world . . . Eventually, you have to do the main quest. 🤷‍♂️ Also, sometimes, it's ok if you decide, "Hey, maybe we play (insert more freewheeling game here) and (insert players who like that) get their enjoyment on (these days/nights), whereas (insert game with a stronger storyline) happens on (insert other days/nights)".

[@SamBrockmann]

@richardzaloudek8208 , I would submit to you, if your friends cannot compromise some, then you don't have friends. You have selfish brats who hang out with you when they get what they want.

[@TruthKeepersOfficialHD2]

@@SamBrockmann the problem is they're basically the only REAL friends I have, hence the only players I can get. Completely agree on your statement though.

[@Valandor_Celestial_Warlock]

As a DM with *more* than 30 years experience (42 to be exact but, really, who's counting anymore), I can confidently say that, just like with what's wrongly called "real life", there is a delicate and somewhat chaotic balance between a player-driven (proactive) and "railroad" (reactive and/or linear) story. It's both. If you leave your players to be the driving force behind the story, you might tend to fall into directionless, meandering nothingness, especially if they're relatively new players and especially if each character's agendas are not necessarily aligned with the others. Just like you don't leave the reader to write a Stephen King novel, you don't just leave it up to the players to create your story for you.

[@phobiawitch835]

I dont mind linear stories OR Player Driven stories. The inly time I ever felt NEGATIVELY railroaded was an Eberron game that was introduced as a Sandbox. We just stuck to the initial plot hook at first, cuz there weren’t many other options. The negative railroad and loss of Sandbox came when we actually got some great hooks but were legitimately told “you can’t do this even though I presented it as an option”. The biggest disappointment was when we had a unicorn quest dropped, and my country himbo Goliath Monk was head over heels, cuz he was a major lover of horses and the entire party perked at the mention of a unicorn. But we were forced to do something related ti a heist instead, which was the “main plot” we’d been dropped a hook for, though really only 1 or two characters even had the skillsets for a Heist, let alone the interest. In fact, at least one of those players was in the talks about leaving the game since we weren’t having fun with the story. That was a few years ago.

[@Subject_Keter]

For me, i think it should be like "you got a ingame year to beat the big bad and you need to build up forces or the artifact to take him on" So you can have sandbox parts and eventually the focused bits that say "you overthrow the fortress and unlock a new region to mess around in" or "you prevented a town from being attacked abd bow you got a airship support for the final battle"

[@monstrousmike]

You most definitely don't suck! Thanks for another excellent video to help us DMs get better!

[@MechbossBoogie]

Hex crawl is really fun. As much as I dunk on Ultimate Campaign from Pathfinder, their exploration rules can be a lot of fun. Each game can be an episode of exploring that hex. It gives you a decent guide for terrain and a good starting point for each thing. So, preparing for the next session can be fairly smooth. I like to work in an overall theme and give them clues at the end of each episode of the big bad they're working against. Make it feel like he's always looming over them in some manner, and each thing they're doing is either getting them closer to uncovering his goals, strengthening them for the final show down, gaining allies for that fight, or something else that could be beneficial, or leads to good player interactions. It gives the players something to motivate them to keep pushing forward.

[@joel3921]

Great vid. Just returned to DMing and planning this kind of campaign. Thanks!

[@princesskanuta3870]

Great video, very helpful content! I love Bacon!

[@johnmeyers7157]

‘Great topic! My “old school” campaigns consisted of a collection of modules strung together with loosely contrived reasons connecting them together. After Dragonlance, I found myself running story-driven invisible rails (but with prepared scenarios and scenes). This latest campaign, has gone completely off the rails, and it’s a blast. Thankfully, I have decades of experience to draw upon and a narrative based system that makes improv easy (Numenera -CypherSystem) In a nutshell, after solving problems by triggering catastrophic earthquakes, their leaders decided that weren’t suited to a spy craft mission. So, now they have to cross unmapped territory, warning anyone they come across if an eventual invasion, and have an NPC diplomat along to keep them on point. Of course, they are being hunted, and spies and assassins will try to stop them. So, they give me a direction, and I prep one session to a time…

[@JKevinCarrier]

Some players really love the idea of being able to direct the campaign. But in my experience, a lot of players don't want to work that hard. They just want to show up, be presented with a clear goal, and then get to work achieving it. Too much freedom of choice just leads to paralysis, and a complaint that the DM isn't giving them enough direction.

[@TheNanoNinja]

I've played in a sandbox westmarches campaign. It wasn't as much fun as it's made out to be. The campaign ended up being almost primarily centred on 2-3 PC'S. Every other character mas more like a player controlled NPC.

[@johnfielder2064]

listening while rewriting my last fantasy campaign into a hex crawl which was a multi gm run game and player-driven, and writing a Grimm Dark sci survival, resource, space and planet exploration setting for shadowdark, they can be fun, especially after playing AP/Linear for so long

[@paganmadnessYT]

You are doing great, Luke, please don't cry :D

[@mentalrebllion1270]

I love a storytelling playstyle. My main dm I play with is also very skilled with this playstyle too. How he has done it, without making anyone feel railroaded, is by tailoring his plot hooks to our characters. And we as the players buy in. We are still free to choose or not choose something and he will wing it for that, but the hooks are tailored in such a way that they are meant to appeal to how our characters act, both good and bad, whatever is important to them. We as the players are expected to buy in by taking these hooks and, because we do, we have fun. This type of playstyle, I’ll admit, requires a ton of communication both in character and outside of it, both during game and between sessions, and yes, tons of talk during session 0. But that’s just how it goes. It is because of this playstyle that I’m having a brilliant time having my protective eldest sibling character learn to actually stop being so self destructive in their self sacrifice, because they have had that opportunity to learn better. I have also had the chance to show them actually learning to cope with their grief. Even the other players are doing things that are character related to growth for the stories they are playing out. And best of all, this style makes us genuinely feel like our characters feel like a found family, messy habits and all. I wouldn’t say the storytelling playstyle is dead. I would say that it’s a very difficult playstyle that maybe doesn’t appeal to your average dm and player. As for why, it’s the buy in and the amount of work that goes into it. Not a bad thing to dislike this, let me be clear, but it’s good to remember this game is a hobby and some people just want to play and not have to invest all of that time and effort and that is perfectly fair. It’s a lot! I enjoy it but my brain is wired for storytelling. I love writing stories and telling stories even outside of ttrpgs and have done it since long ago. Telling/writing stories is practically compulsive now as a fun hobby for me to decompress and dnd is merely the medium I have chosen in recent years due to loving the collaborative nature it brings. If I want to just sit down with something easier and kill goblins, etc, I just pull up BG3 which has a more traditional dnd game experience to me. But if I want to truly play out a living story, I turn to my dnd table and my main dm. Because that’s when I immerse myself into being my character and living that character’s story. And I love discussing my character with the others and my dm. My dm welcomes me discussing these things with them too and we truly collaborate back and forth. I’ve even gotten compliments from my dm for hitting the cues they lay out for me and my characters specifically, which I only pick up on because of my literary literacy and pick up the storybeats I notice being laid out. Like I said though, dm will gladly pivot still if I choose a different path. He loves us being creative in ways that enhance the storytelling (if one is just angling for creative mechanical advantage, that he is less impressed by). So…yeah, can be done, but it’s not a style compatible for all. I love it but yes, I’ll admit, I’m worn out afterwards because of how much work and investment I pour in. That’s cathartic for me but I can understand how it isn’t for everyone. Some people just want to sit down and game, and that’s valid.

[@arnoldpolymer1979]

Luke, you don't totally suck and bacon is great!

[@duncanmacneil4759]

Most of mine are episodic adventures with small items that tie in to the final event. I love episodic games since if things go wrong it is easy to get the group back on track next session, since you pick them up and point them in the right direction next time.

[@bbarrett726]

You have no idea what you're talking about and you're wrong. Now to watch the video

[@mifigor1935]

One thing that you missed that almost made campaign I was in fall apart. Do not make too many character specific quests. Cause the party I was in was traveling to Vengerberg together and after we arrived I heard about a cleric of Melitele that can remove curses. Our wizard heard that someone robbed Vivaldi bank and our rogue contacted their informant who told them about a magic sword. Each of those rumors were tailored specifically to progress each of our personal quests. So what happened was that everyone took their own quest and split the party into 4 separate campaigns which as you can probably imagine turned into a snore fest.

[@randydoffing3204]

You Don't Suck! 😀 As a player, I love the idea of a player directed campaign. As a DM, it makes it me nervous. What if they go somewhere I didn't prep for? In our last sandbox campaign, my players did do some player directed things like clear out a tower inhabited by villains; make their own fortress; hire a staff to maintain it while they went out adventuring. There's so much gold in 5e that became one way to try to drain away their treasure. Still not big enough expensive to make a dent in their fortunes. 😆

[@RemnTheteth]

I'm glad you touched on rail roads vs essentially sandboxes - in that they are both tools to be used in different contexts, not opposing views on story telling. Sometimes you need to drive the party forward with a singular track, and then later can expand options, or vice versa. This expansion and contraction is context based. It's sad to see so many explanations of this as juxtaposing views, versus different tools in the tool box. You can even design railroads in a way where, in context with the story, they aren't seen as contrived, but reasoned as the only sensible option by the party given the context they're in. Therefore, it's not a railroad, it's a contraction, a focus, of what is important given the circumstances. The failure is seeing story only through that lens or the other, where you end up with either a well planned but simple narrative, or a narrative that loses focus amongst all the disparate priorities.

[@dustinseybold4717]

Back in the late 80s when I was playing I had a DM that most of the big bads, were the environment or the dungeon. We were given a quest or a goal at the beginning, but we didn't always finish that first quest we would wander off and find something else

[@vulpixel]

I had no idea that the campaign I am making has a name (aq inc). I just called it an adventurers guild campaign. But I like that 1) bite sized episodic adventures 2) I can make really wild stuff since they are one-offs 3) players get to choose but 4) I can prep easily. Finally 5) I can still weave in a big bad subtly that is bumped into occasionally and the mystery is slowly unveiled

[@wardhuckabay8262]

To make it easier on the GM, have the players create different levels of goals and link them together with other player characters at the table. Short, mid and long term goal give the GM lots to work with for prepping sessions. The GM then makes encounters/situations that have to do with those goals. And BOOM! That’s your campaign ;)

[@BrazenBard]

I generally describe my GMing style as "Simulationist world, Narrative campaign" - the game world itself has numerous plots going in the background, and the world is alive with various things happening in the background... and none of it matters much until and unless the party interacts with whichever plot is going on. For the current campaign I'm running, the party is invested in one another, and resolving personal objectives such as finding missing parents (which are alive), or other big and small goals, with the currently MIA Dread Emperor, a lich who was magically exploded along with his palace a couple months ago, monitoring the group for his entirely own purposes (he's not an actually bad guy, and after 800 years, he's curious to see if the empire will endure without him), and perhaps find out who tried to assassinate the emperor in the first place... The past two sessions involved the party meeting one PC's fairy godmother, a banshee, receiving a modest gift from her, acquiring a firm butt-shaped pillow, loading up the party's wagon with some trade goods, and setting off for the next province in pursuit of some more clues about one PC's parents... while running into an unfortunate thief in the night, and a sleeping (friendly) dragon who accepted a bit of cheese and a bellyrub. Because the world is *alive*, not all dependent on the players' actions, but responding to them...

[@scrapperlock9437]

I agree. I have run more story-based campaigns because that seems to be the "industry standard" and some of my players seem to want it (or think they do). But I think that my next Deadlands "campaign" will just be "here's stuff going on, what do you want to do?" There's some of that in the Headstone Hill boxed set I am playing now, but of course, my players have ignored most of the sandbox and just beelined the "main plot" because there is one. If there wasn't one, we'd have a much more emergent story.

[@aaronclift]

I see Luke wearing a Buc-ee’s shirt and I watch. Simple as that.

[@jierdareisa4313]

I love ALL the DM Lair videos!!!! ❤

[@Frostrazor]

I"m currently running a PDC in my Dungeon World Campaign. I am sure to drop several plot hooks and things to do and follow-up on. I create zounds of well described and narrated NPCs wherever they go (any that don't get used just get repurposed for the next town). They have nearly full control over what story arc, plot hook, or rumor to follow up on. A big point is we did not write back-stories - just a couple lines of description. The backstories are generated via flashbacks and put in motion when it's pertinent. In the back ground there are political-social issues going on that are making things interesting and sometimes downright difficult. They sometimes choose to get involved and other times, they ignore and follow other ventures. Alot of the game content and points of interest are player generated as well. Regardless there are a few factions etc that are omnipresent that are creating a lot of the drama. They have allied with one of them which puts them in opposition of 2 others. This has generated some of the tense encounters. But mostly allow players to direct the show and keep the story hooks alive with various tactics to assure they have complete buy-in. EX1. ask specific player "There's someone from your childhood that you did not get along with - who was it?" they answer. "Did you do them wrong? or did they do you wrong?" "What was the wrong?" The next town they go to, you can bet that person is there. EX2. you are in (this town), and someone mentions a nearby village of (that village). Ask player what was your reason for wanting to (that village)? What key point about that place has caught your attention? Regardless, the biggest most important thing I do is I spend 80% of my prep AFTER the game (not before). That's right - after each game I make detailed session report, share it with the group, and then I study it and previous session reports, and I look for ways to connect places, foes, events, allies, from one session to another inexorably to allow a larger campaign story to emerge organically. EX: in session 9 they helped a farmer (whos wife left him a few years earlier) with a curse that was destroying his farm. in Session 24 they learned that a woman was causing havoc in a small village due to the cult she was part of. I drew a connection recently after game 24 that the this woman is the ex-wife and was the cause of that curse. These are ways of turning otherwise unconnected almost trivial story lines into larger adventure hooks and larger threats that go beyond the monster of the week.

[@Stormer13]

My personal method of running a game and story is closer to a train station. The players choose which train to get on and then can freely move between cars, but they also know their destination (kill X, rescue Y, find Z, etc.) ahead of time. My players prefer it because they don't feel lost like they do in a sandbox world (thankfully for me because I hate running that kind of world) but they feel enough in control of the story to not feel rail roaded. I try to include their actions and decisions in the world canon so they can see the impact they are having. Another point I want to bring up is you can explore evil or morally grey characters in any kind of storytelling, not just player driven ones, but the whole party needs to be on board with that kind of story. The hero's journey can just as easily apply to a villain, and you can have a sandbox where you're building your evil empire with your fellow baddies. However, in story-driven games, if there isn't cohesion in the group, the story will be strained and possibly pulled in too many directions. Sandboxes still work well, I believe, since the players can "take turns" pursuing goals in that sandbox. With story-driven games though, I anticipate that would cause a lot of issues if the party isn't clear out-of-game on how to resolve and handle these kinds of things.

[@israelmorales4249]

yeah, great way to start the day!

[@Halvos12]

Have a story planned, the players go to a town instead of a cave? Well the goblins they were meant to fight in the cave are attacking the town now.

[@Miranda17137]

Is that a natural consequence of the players' choices or the DM trying to recover prep time?

[@Halvos12]

@@Miranda17137 Yes

[@DavidB-tm5et]

Here’s your flowery benediction saying that you don’t suck: May the power and blessings of the KZbin algorithm wash over you as the cool, refreshing rivers of your wisdom wash over us. By granting to us your advice through so many videos throughout the ages, you have nourished our GM knowledge as the rain nourishes a flower, helping us to blossom into amazing GMs who run great games our players love. …Is that flowery and benediction-y enough?? 😉😛

[@schwarzerritter5724]

I stayed in a heavily railroaded game where all we could do was wait until it was our turn to roll dice. Since it was online, I could play Factorio in another window... building railroads.

[@micahthomas705]

It's like the difference between Star Wars and whatever Disney has been making.

[@steveturner9506]

I have a SpellJammer campaign I specifically designed for the times when one or more of my group can't show on game day. They are based on the Rock of Bral, and get orders from their commanders. It gives me the ability to have 3 people, to 7 people, and I have multiple 1-off games that can be uplevelled or downlevelled as needed for my players. I do have an over-arcing theme they are working towards, but I'm not knee-capped with some of the players not being able to show up due to real life obligations.

[@CitanulsPumpkin]

I use a bunch of tools together to structure player driven campaigns. Namely; factions, bonds and flaws, base building, and some traditional storytelling campaign elements. To start, I make very clear rules regarding character backstories. I don't need a novel. I need a paragraph detailing your inciting incident and a list of bonds, ideals, flaws, and traits. Tell me your character's deal, why they became an adventurer, and why they need to keep earning money by adventuring. You need at least five bonds. One of which has to be someone you want dead or who wants you dead. Another has to be someone you would kill any number of enemies to defend. And one has to be the reason you need the money from adventuring. If one player gives me the seven lieutenants of the big bad built into their backstory and a reason why the whole party has to Scott Pilgrim their way through all seven, I may let them start with an extra feat or magic item. Farm the npcs that will come up right away from the lists of bonds each player gives. I can do so much more with, "I have two loving patents and a sibling that is hard to put up with some days," than I can with "My parents were killed and I was raised by wolves and then the wolves were killed and now I'm on a quest to avenge my wolf patents." Start things off with a classic "Stop the BBEG" story for tier one levels and about half of tier two. Introduce npcs from bond lists, and multiple factions. By levels 3 to 5 give the PCs a starter base and some npc employees to guard and run their base. Use the new Bastion rules, or Strongholds and Followers, or the 3e book Stronghold Builder's Guidebook, or just the Franchise rules in Acq. Inc. By the time the BBEG is taken care of, make the PCs the local or possibly only leaders of one faction, or let them build their own factions. What do player built factions look like? Let the rogue start a thieves guild. Have an army of NPC soldiers flock to the war banner of the fighter, paladin, or barbarian. Let the scholarly characters build a library, school, or mage academy. Let the spycraft focused characters build a spy network. Let the wizard bulid a multidimensional wizard tower or portal network. Let the charisma casters build a cult of personality. Make the druid a grove leader and let them build a system of stone henge style teleportation circles or leyline conduits. Give the ranger his own hunting party in the Wild Hunt and the title of Duke in one of the fey courts. Have these player run factions working in the background on whatever pet projects the players want. Have them work out of the PC's bases and boil the results of their work down to "make a thing, get a thing, or find out about a thing." Once the BBEG is gone and every player has their own little empire to run, then the campaign shifts to fully player driven action. Use time skips and ask the players what their personal armies of npcs did in the last three months. If a player can't make a session, then they're stuck at base micromanaging a problem with their faction/followers. For everyone who showed up, the session starts with an update on what their followers accomplished, and then the DM tells them about a setback. "Rogue, your second lieutenant got the softball sized emerald you wanted, but he also has bad news from your spy network. Fighter the throne your army put you on is secure, but your third lieutenant was just carried into your throne room on a stretcher. He's stablized, but he'll be out for a month. Wizard, eight of your simulacrums from your simulacrum network have been killed in the last week. Your other npc lieutenants tell each of you there is only one lead, and then they tell your PCs the same name." Then, the adventure is going out and dealing with the new threat. Usually, by getting some mcguffin before the agents of six rival factions can get it for themselves. Running the factions is simple. Let each player make 3 NPCs/backup characters. Those npcs are the three lieutenants each PC uses to manage their faction/empire. If a quest runs longer than a single session and the players at the next session are different, then just say that the party lineup changed because someone absent was needed to sort out a joint operation between each PC's factions or they solved a faction issue and were able to teleport in and join the party.

[@cpewts]

Love the Buckees shirt

[@sinmaan7568]

Defines 3 factions that have influence/upcoming impact in your area with goals that happens as time advances and throw hooks to player to see what they want to influence.

[@thedungeonmom]

12:28 So Pure Sandbox is what my campaign is. There's multiple plotlines going on, but my players have wandered off to do their own thing from time to time.

[@SamBrockmann]

Some of, in my opinion, favorite stories in games involve at least a portion of the game where the players are told, "This part is a sandbox". It's like the Final Fantasy formula. You have a large period of time in many FF games where you can just go and explore the world.

[@Subject_Keter]

I forget what they call that but good games do that "you can mess around here all you want, but if you want to pass, get pass the mountain guardian and never come back"

[@sorrontisgames]

I mostly run Player Directed Campaigns, with a "lot" of nudging from the me, the DM. But that's how we all like it in my group.

[@CaseyWilkesmusic]

I almost can’t imagine a high level game that isn’t a player driven campaign. I know they exist but they almost exclusively are based on the players current or previous actions.

[@this_epic_name]

Great video. I mean, GREAT video! This cuts to the core of my anxious DM mind. I've found players at my table seem more interested in winning than in having crazy, ridiculous fun. They hesitate to try things and have hemmed and hawed over just about every adventure hook I've thrown their way. For my table, a sandbox is the worst; they will not be able to choose something to do (indecisiveness). Explicitly providing options to them isn't much better; they REALLY don't like being presented with options AND a statement that choosing Option A could mean this other situation over here (that they don't address) goes to shit. Basically, I feel like in order for just about anything to actually happen in a session, I've got to go right up to the line of saying "go here and do this" without actually saying that. I have to make it really clear that "Place A" is where they need to go next. Otherwise, they could spend the entire session dithering. Early on in one of the campaigns I'm running, a player -- offering suggestions on how to run sessions -- said something to the effect of "do what you have to do to tell the story you want to tell." To me, that signals that this player wants to be fed a story, not create one. As time has rolled on, I really wish the players would come up with batshit crazy stuff at the table (or away from it) and help mold the story.

[@Scott-sk1rb]

If players try to switch gears after a GM has prepared an adventure for them I think that a bacon fee should be applied where they must supply the GM with 1 pound of bacon for every hour spent prepping the adventure they were supposed to go on!

[@Darkwintre]

Agreed

[@calebbaeten3610]

The pronunciation of "impetus" made me LOL.

[@Zanji1234]

i do play "linear campains" considering i do play published campaigns or single adventures which then will be made into a campaign but i do also change stuff depending on the choices of my characters. The issue for me is that i don't have good "ideas" on how to do a good story or stuff

[@hardhead6871]

More cats, would watch again! Haha

[@abettermind]

Some of my best games went heavy on story. Also, some of my best games had very, very little story. Gaming is primarily about making meaningful decisions. The quality of a game directly correlates to the amount of meaningful decisions the players make. This is independent of what is usually referred to as "story."

[@Frederic_S]

Luke is the BEST! We love Luke! That man is a saint!

[@theDMLair]

Thank you so much!!!

[@GeraldKatz]

I prefer and want the Storytelling game. That is essential to my character's growth aside from leveling and getting new stuff. The Story makes the roleplaying game instead of it being a glorified board game moving my meeple. Railroading has nothing to do with it. I'm playing the Campaign Plot voluntarily. I'm on purpose buying in to play by playing the game of whatever the Story is. My motivation is playing the game. Player freedom comes in by the players choosing how to resolve whatever the Plot is. We choose where to go, what to do, whose side we're on. While the campaign can have one BBEG that's not necessary for a Story Game. There can be many BBEGs of different adventuring arcs. One Story is levels 1-5, a second Story is levels 6-10, and so on. The Stories may or may not be related, but our achievements from earlier Stories carry-on into later Stories, such as reputation with NPCs, allies made along the way, character backstory progress, etc. If you're so worried of DMs turning Linear Campaigns into Railroads, do a follow-up video showing how not to fall into that trap to make Plot happen.

[@andreistoian3152]

Good job, you dont suck!

[@davidmartinez2424]

I have started storm kings thunder, but it quickly transformed into an entirely homebrew campaign. One that had nothing to do with giants

[@Darkwintre]

In my last campaign i had at least 2 bbeg with the option for more if needed . Sadly i couldnt get them interested and as i was planning on dropping the setting into a domain of dread when the other dm got "bored" and jumped settings despite that not being possible without cooperation and he really didnt give a damn!

[@SheBeast-OG]

My players can’t even decide if they’re gonna open a door or not. Bold of you to assume they would even want to drive a campaign.

[@Darkwintre]

No it's not. That requires investment and competency. Whether by a DM who doesn't give a damn or players who couldn't be bothered. Finding the right combination of both is harder than you think.

[@battleraven5984]

I try to make a story for each of my players with a bbeg that brings them together at the beginning.

[@Subject_Keter]

"Isnt a video a railroad? Haha gottem" - the kinda of commet GM Lair needs to live 😂 /jk Just need to determine people preferences and try to balance it. Like if look at Grim Dawn, i think they do a good job of having you barrel to the final act but it makes sense why you do stuff and isnt stale (Help me i love hate thay game)

[@chambly111]

Good video, thanks. 10:00 if you don't know which players will be at the table, and it's the players that choose the adventure, how do you prepare for such a gaming session?

[@MJ-jd7rs]

Why players stick around for far longer than any 'rational person' should. 1. The suck cost fallacy. Normally by the time it reaches this point, a player has put a 100 plus hours into their PC and the game itself, that's a huge investment to just walk away from. 2. Hope it'll get better. 3. They WANT to honor their commitment to the game/players/GM. 4. Inability to truly recognize the situation they’re in. It’s hard to see how bad things devolve over time when you’re in it, it’s truly the frog boiling in water.

[@Subject_Keter]

Also most people who are bad tend to hide it so it usually some time before you realize they lick babies

[@patricklippert8345]

5. Finding a new DM or group is hard. When I wanted to get into tabletop as a PC, it seemed like everyone's groups were full or the schedule wouldn't work for me. When I started getting interested in DMing, it was hard to find anyone who wasn't already playing in multiple campaigns already.

[@sullyscompletelyuselessnat9467]

Current DM, looking for peoples thoughts: How do people feel about linear storytelling and railroading when running a pre written model. Currently running dungeon of the mad mage, our players have reached floor 15 (3 n half years 😢) for the most part my players have had complete agency on how they handel the dungeon. However hands up, I have to admit on a few occasions I've railroaded the players mainly because the floor info Sucks, lacking prep for a session, or is due to us taking such a long time. Hasn't affected players' enjoyment thus far. I'd have to say for a moduel there's a time and a place for it, especially when they've spent ages on a floor.

[@atomicnectar]

you definitely dont suck! lol my fav dnd yapper

[@arnelarboleda2870]

You do the dm'ing. I'll just roll for monsters and antagonists instead.

[@carolxu8315]

Pretty sure I had a DM who tried to run both types of campaigns rolled into one, and did neither well. 😂 They supposedly had a central story arc (something about stopping Vecna and his death moon minion from corrupting our world), but then would send us on a bunch of unrelated episodic “quests” that never served to advance the story. Most of the time we wouldn’t even finish the episodic arcs before the DM would abandon them for a new one. A lot of us ended up quitting or becoming less engaged because the campaign felt so unsatisfying and incoherent. Honestly, I would have been fine with either an open world or a central arc, so I guess my advice from a player’s POV is to just pick one and do it well, rather than try to combine both poorly in a way that makes no sense.

[@zing_zippers]

I was already doing this in a way, but mostly because I was having trouble with creating an overarching narrative lol

[@TheHyperfilthered]

Lol I'm about to start my first game as a DM. I wrote the campaign myself, and there's literally a railroad sequence in it :'D I didn't even know it was a thing. Whoops. Edit: in my defense this is supposed to be a short one shot, so I have to wrangle the players in a certain direction.

[@sleepinggiant4062]

Sandbox games are boring and in my experience have no goals. It's encounter after encounter that are not tied together and have no consequences. We have had countless games end around level 7 because of lack of content at higher levels and DM burnout. Pathfinder Adventure Paths and the newer 5e campaigns have worked very well for us.

[@Darkwintre]

Requires investment and a DM who does give a damn and players to be actually interested.

[@patricklippert8345]

Dabbling in DMing Cyberpunk Red so kinda outside the scope of this video, but that system seems to skew towards this style of gameplay where edgerunners get gigs they do for money, the Lifepath system where the PCs have backstory and personal connections for story hooks, and there's no BBEG to defeat because the corporations own everything so at best you defeat one CEO and another takes his place. Only been doing one-offs so far since I feel like doing an episodic style campaign might get repetitive or fizzle out when everyone runs out of ideas on what to do next? Not sure if I'm overthinking it or not.

[@patgauvingeek]

*me at the point of a shotgun*: you don't suck ! You don't suck ! Please let me go ! 😅

[@haleyr3028]

Your description of a more big bad focused seems more ridged than games I’ve been involved in. Our games aren’t always linear but the big bads give us goals and motivations. I think the problem is more with the perception of those games are. I see TTRPGs through the lenses of literature, theatre, independent TTRPGs, other media and I think that helps me not box in my games. It’s a great video to share another point of view others might not think of. There are endless ways to play and enjoy. Quick tip: one can always modify the environment to make interesting creature make sense or “reskin” creatures, even in a module, to make them more interesting.

[@CaseyWilkesmusic]

Sorry….”imPETus”?? “IMpetus.”

[@JustTvist]

Players talk they want open world but in reality they almost always need some rails xD

[@JoeFlamenco]

As long as you have a good group that’s bought in to play the game, it’s fine. I call it “episodic” type games when they lack a central plot.

[@mercycunningham2813]

I run a VtM Game and never plan anything. It's just to much work running big campaigns. All I have to do is know my city and the NPCs realy well and present opportunitys. The most I have to do is to give them a simple fetch quest. As example: Malkavian X has lost a marble. She is very upset since it's a marble of a very specific size with a rare and very pretty lamp work pattern. Malkavian X is the Oracle of the Prince. The prince wants his Oracle happy. So dear group since even the guhls have more important tasks to do - get the Oracle the lost marble. How do you find a marble in a city? Or maybe you can replace it? Or distract the Malkavian? Or something else? Entirely players choice. Quick solve: Marble is a Nosferatu who wears the described marble in a eyesocket. He has an information Malk X needs. I like to start with something lighthearted VtM gets dark fast enough.

[@tworcaswiatow5907]

How about not giving up the central story arc and maximizing options for the players? In this case, players can drive narration and return to story, when they feel confused due to the amount of possibilities.

[@TheVTTDM]

I have thoughts! I think you malign linear too much...although I spend inordinate amounts of time making my campaigns less linear. I do this through a few methods, some of which you state in the tips, like having recurring villains. Some of this is done through getting player buy-in before the campaign starts so I don't have to railroad anywhere near as much as I would without it. I also try to put multiple villains, personal nemeses, and the like into the campaign so the players have plenty of alternative things to do... I just try and add something related to the overall plot in most of these if I can. (Sometimes I can't and that's okay.) And nothing concrete is planned beyond the next session. This way the plot is malleable. If the PCs do x and that means I have to let go of y in the plot I've loosely created, so be it. I'll revise the future plot to accommodate, often throwing out entire planned story arcs. This essentially boils down to the same sort of flexibility someone running a sandbox requires. I find that this is much better done homebrew than trying to follow a campaign book where you can't adjust your overall plot for the major villain as you go. Not that there's anything wrong with campaign books for some tables but obviously the future plotline is pretty rigid. I try to advise new DMs on various discord chats to avoid planning beyond the next session. I used to be afraid of telling my players to stick to what they've said they'll do until one of your previous videos. That was brilliant. Thank you for that!

[@arakuss1]

One way not to create a railroaded adventure line but yet have a narrative is just simply look at it this way. The world is living. There are kings and queens, baddies and good guys, and all sorts of monsters. World events will and do happen all around us in real life. So those same things will happen in a campaign. The goblin horde will attack the town in the valley. Doesn't mean the players have to interfere or save the town. That town is just going to be attacked. I no outside force stops the goblins the town will fall. The is just going to happen in the world. The vampire lords demand blood in the towns they rule over or even cities. That is just the world the pcs live in. Players might get caught up having to pay the blood tax or a protection from being a victim or not. They get to chose what they wish to do. That is just the world. Yes fighting and killing the vampire lords minions going to draw attention to the party. Or the players might decided to steel something from the local mayor to pay for the tax. What I normal like to do is when I create such a world the players are told about the world. They know the world then I ask them what they would like to do in such a world. This helps me create adventures and things that players can go and do. For example running a very shady city where the players live they decided they wanted to create their own following or cult like thing. So looking for holly relics and things like would become their focus. Also they needed to pay the bills for the church they were going to set up. Was it going to be legit or a scam? These are the things you explore with the players in a session zero discussion. From time to time there are going to be railroaded events do to what the players may do and who they might piss off. Other times players chose what they wish to do but in the end the world around them still goes on whether they chose to interact with it directly or not.

[@RIVERSRPGChannel]

I still use a central story arc but it is a loose arc. I think for new players this is the way to go. Just my opinion.

[@crastestpixles5972]

I left a commnet without watching your video first because you told me to, is that railroading? Do I at least get a saving throw?

[@avengingblowfish9653]

I don’t think 5E is suitable for this kind of campaign because I feel that it only works with small stakes to prevent a threat from becoming a campaign dominating BBEG, but player characters get so strong so quickly that by level 10 it’s hard to justify keeping the stakes small.