What are FOURTH FLUTES and SIXTH FLUTES? with Tom de Vries | Team Recorder

Meet the fourth flute and sixth flute - recorders in Bb and D! Lesser known, but beautiful members of the recorder family. I met up with recorder builder Tom de Vries, who has built some 4th and 6th flutes, plus all the semitones in between!
// LINKS
Tom de Vries www.devriesrecorders.nl
Ensemble Odyssey www.ensembleodyssee.com
'Not Just the Alto' by David Lasocki davidlasocki.com/store/Lasock...
// PLAYLIST
I've started a playlist here:
open.spotify.com/playlist/7u2...
It's by no means complete, so I've made it collaborative - if you know of other great fourth/sixth flute recordings, feel free to add them in there!
// TIMESTAMPS
00:00 Intro
00:53 Tom and the recorders he built
01:47 Trying the recorders out
03:30 Why are they called fourth/sixth flute?
04:46 Repertoire
06:46 Building these instruments
09:43 The question of sound
11:53 Playing some Dieupart and van Eyck
//////
Website: www.sarahjeffery.com
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[@idraote]

This was fascinating. Many thanks to Tom for allowing us to have a peek at his shop and his instruments which, by the way, sound beautiful. I found the recorder he played at about 12.00 particularly pleasant, with such a rich and darker sound.

[@ClaythorpeMusic]

Great to get the chance to hear them all side by side for a proper comparison, thanks!

[@TenorCantusFirmus]

Sarah might have the best collabs of any KZbinr I'm subscribed to.

[@Team_Recorder]

Nawwe

[@Cecilia-bp2dn]

Absolutely fascinating - I love these behind the scenes of the recorder world videos - thanks again Sarah!

[@terrenceseidel3054]

Thanks Sarah!!! Nice to learn this. Gives a person alot to think about all kinds of Music, & what Recorder they may get to play their music they want

[@twothreebravo]

Fabulous video, thank you both for this great insight!

[@nicoswanepoel7336]

I love these rare and special recorders in the different semitones! Good video and very interrestinsting!

[@altheatalbothoward]

This was fascinating, and so informative. Thank you both.

[@maximedauphin4448]

Another video! Yeah! Always so nice videos!

[@jayshrader196]

Thanks for sharing!

[@BlessYourHeart254]

Beautiful instruments!

[@67kingbee]

I’m a beginner at the recorder. I’m also a wood turner. I never put the idea together that a recorder was made on a lathe. So now I’m interested in crafting a instrument. Thanks for the video.

[@filharmonix]

Wow! First time I'm hearing of 4th flutes and 6th flutes. The one with the Db concert key intrigues me. Makes playing in keys like C# and F# much easier.

[@amtalbot3776]

I absolutely love these type of videos. It's so interesting seeing makers and their workspace! Also the thought process they go through making such instruments. Thanks for introducing us not only to another maker but uncommon recorders. I am a bit curious about a recorder maker who has a viola da gamba painting on their wall. Lol!

[@Team_Recorder]

I thiiiiiink Tom plays gamba too? 😊

[@amtalbot3776]

He obviously has good taste if he plays both! :) The two instruments sound so amazing together.

[@phasemargin]

Thank you thank you thank you, this - so smooth

[@eolianflute5965]

Fastinating ! Thank you so much !

[@kimmyrawes8007]

very interesting. amazing sounding recorders

[@jamesearl1061]

Hey I loved the show with you and Adriana I also have fun with all the sounds your teaching us thank you Sarah. I laugh all the time your a recorder playing recordeers.

[@jobarrieglenn]

That was very interesting, thank you

[@twocanucksful]

As others have said, this was very fascinating. Thank you. 🙏

[@dag_larsson]

Nice video! It was quite interesting to see that the subtitling interpreted some bits and pieces of the demonstrations as words.

[@Team_Recorder]

sometimes it interprets it as ‘applause’ 😂

[@jennifercampbell2512]

Thank you for this video!

[@recorder71]

Ugh...I've been wanting a 4th flute for years, this now solidifies that I must own one!!! So gorgeous!

[@Team_Recorder]

Dooooo it!!

[@gabry9835]

I loved the video! Can you make a video about the Sammartini concerto?

[@marc270959]

I wish you all the best with your new child Sarah,hope all goes well with the both of you.

[@norwaysofen]

I would love a fourth flute! I am originally an alto player, but I love the soprano sound too, oh, all the possibilities!

[@LuziSantos]

This is so cool!!!!

[@hmsdefiant]

This is good to know. So difficult to play in certain keys, I persevered with recorder as an inexpensive improvisational tool a little, like 20 years ago. I like jazz and it seemed like too much effort, legato sucks for accidental keys. Good thing about the guitar: transposing is so easy, you just move the sequence up the frets, the fingering positioning stays the same. Not even the piano can say that. I got back into it, but I live in terraced housing so I think the tenor might be a better option for me now. I like writing my own stuff now and know that everything has its place and a good melody from any instrument can be the basis for a song. These recorders would be very handy. I've loved recorders ever since I was given a chromatic fingering chart.

[@citolero]

I have a specially commissioned Tartu (medieval) B-flat soprano made by Tim Cranmore. Perfect for all those medieval tunes in G or D modes with a B-flat.

[@_Quercetum]

I keep watching this video over and over--it's so good. Can anyone tell me if that's Tom's ganassi in C towards the end he's playing Daphne on?

[@aprilmunday1152]

Oh, no.More recorders to buy! I've played a fourth flute and it was lovely. I don't know that I'd get much use from it, though.

[@L14B]

excllent! thks

[@thpeti]

Nice! But if the range is enough, just transpose ;) I have two altos, a 415 and a 440 one, and depending on the key & the concert pith, I chose one. Sometimes, just for fun, when the part is easy, I ask our conductor to print out my part half note higher (just a few mouse clicks in Sibelius), and I'm using a baroque pitch instrument with a modern orchestra. It's fun :) The boring part can be challenging to play :) Well, I could spend a fortune having recorders for all the 12 semitones in two octaves, but I love to play in different keys... Well, as a kid, I had to play also the clarinet. It had lots of keys, but first, I've learnt the clarinet etudes on my alto recorder (sometimes with octave jumps). I didn't have to mess up my fingers with the fancy boehm keywork. Just the holes. And sometimes the keys didn't cover, so I had to replace the leather to fix the issue. (I'm still having that cheap chech clarinet, it's still playable, but I don't like it...)

[@roseatkinson1990]

The auto captions are hilarious... they even provide words when you're just playing! LOL

[@tiborkovacs5317]

Good vid very interesting.

[@chazwarren7134]

So Sarah - tell us what recorders you bought?

[@alfredbackhus6110]

I personally love to hear recorders in Bb, A or Ab, like high pitched g' or a' renaissance altos. On Tin Whistle, the Bb is my go to Solo instrument.

[@XX-rt6pt]

You rock , grrl!

[@anthonymccarthy4164]

OK, I'm saving up for one of his instruments. Now, which one do I want?

[@Cysubtor_8vb]

I've heard of fourth flutes while looking into if a Bb tenor existed. Ultimately ended up ordering a Bb bass whistle, which is still being custom made, so I don't know how it's finger spacing is going to feel vs the keys of a tenor recorder or bass recorder (or my low D whistle as well).

[@963saw]

I too would love a Bb tenor, but, since there seems to be only two of us, that would be a VERY small niche market! ;)

[@gerardvila4685]

Truly fascinating... and rather reminiscent of folk musicians buying a whole set of whistles in different keys, which I'd never heard of on recorders! But I don't quite see why there was no recorder in D (I mean concert D, not Baroque D) which is the commonest key for whistles AFAIK. I've heard of voice flutes, but they are in low D if I understood correctly.

[@MaoRatto]

That would be interesting to bring a D tenor back... As I see it would cool to have and seem, or better yet... Add extra keys to recorders being the standard. A tenor in Bflat would be practical for jazz, Basset in Eflat would be practical for lower ranges, but surprised there hasn't been much advancement in experimenting with extra key and fingering systems or give the recorder the full 4 octave treatment like the western flute.

[@YoPaulieMusic]

Wonderful video. Curious... why produce recorders with different frequencies for A?

[@Team_Recorder]

My video on 415 vs. 440 Hz explains this in detail! It’s basically what we today use as ‘modern pitch’ and ‘baroque pitch’

[@thomasnguyen6144]

I’m guessing that the forth flute is basses on the forth step in the F major scale and the sixth flute is based on the sisth step of the F Major scale.

[@Fmajor7]

Wow. So cool 👁👄🙌

[@Machodave2020]

1. This is a good jump in production quality, great job. 2. What's with all these recorders? We have different ranges, keys, and now these weird keys we never heard of?

[@christophertsiliacos8958]

Recorders are like saxophones, they come in many sizes. For example, here are just a few of the many types of saxophones: 😊 🎷🎵 soprano saxophone (highest pitched) alto saxophone (most common beginner instrument) tenor saxophone (common choice, especially in jazz) baritone saxophone (lowest pitch)

[@richardholmquist7316]

@@christophertsiliacos8958 Check the Renaissance Recorder Database. There were recorders built in just about all the semitones over several octaves, also a few 'quarter tones'. This was mostly due to varying pitch levels in different places at different times.

[@Machodave2020]

Want to know what we have for the violin? We tune it up or down to the pitch we want or need and we only need 1 - 5+ instruments (you might have multiple instruments for different needs, like one with a baroque set up, one for your ensemble/orchestra, one for a band which can be electric or acoustic-electric, one for common uses like for a YT channel, practicing, teaching if you do that, this is the instrument you bring on road trips that isn't the world's best, but gets the job done, one just in case, and you might have a viola or two), but we mostly keep it at standard pitch and tune it to where A = 440 - 444 Hertz (we don't tune it to other pitches much because it's unnecessary). Note: Not every violinist has multiple instruments because that shit is expensive, but if you come across one that does, just know that it's not uncommon. A person like me would be uncommon because I have a cello, viola, and some violins. The cello isn't common for violinist to have. To see a violinist or a cellist have a viola is common but to find a cellist to have a viola and violin (or violinists to have a viola and a cello) is uncommon unless they teach at a public school or they started with violin or cello as their first and switched over.

[@sameash3153]

​@@Machodave2020 Based. I have a cello, violin, and viola.

[@Machodave2020]

@@sameash3153 Sweet, which did you start with? I'm a violinist and have been playing for 8 years, then I got my first viola and cello 4 years in. Edit: Also, what was your reason for getting them?

[@gulumayroz]

💖💖🙏Hi. I have a question about playing Baroque alto recorder : there are 2 ways to shift between the 2 half tones, small (double) holes with the ring finger of the lower hand. First way is to slide the finger forward or back...and block with the tip... The second way is just to lift the tip...as if half holing on a normal one hole , (rather than the double hole of the ring finger). The second way is faster...and maybe easier...but may cause a pitch problem. What do you recommend?

[@maniestacio9245]

The second description is the only way you should half-hole on the recorder 😊

[@gulumayroz]

@@maniestacio9245 thanks...wow...i am surprised...i thought the second way was just my "weird" invention...i will now practice the second way with more confidence. Thanks 💕🙏

[@maniestacio9245]

Actually I just read your comment again and I think I misunderstood 😅 It is actually a sliding motion and the half-hole should be covered by the tip of your finger. So I think the first way is what you were describing. Does that make sense?

[@gulumayroz]

@@maniestacio9245 yes... with mixed emotions, it does make sense...well ...at least i tried...😆💕🙏 Thanks...

[@gulumayroz]

and now I can work whole heartedlly on one way...💕🙏

[@fepatton]

Is the written music for these instruments adjusted so you don't have to learn new fingering per note for each instrument, or is it like the C and F instruments where you have to learn both?

[@edwardblair4096]

My experience with recorder music in general, and especially music that could potentially be played on different recorders, is that the music is notated in "standard pitch" and the player is expected to know how to adjust their fingerings to produce the right note. "Standard pitch" is not necessarily the same as "concert pitch (A=440)". In some contexts a group can decide to use a different pitch standard, such as A=415 or A=460. As long as everyone is using instruments using compatible standards, the instrument will perform the transposition automatically.

[@Team_Recorder]

Good question! As these instruments are pretty rare, you won’t see published music transposed specifically for it. The player will most likely learn a new set of fingerings to play on these recorders 😅 D is manageable as we use that system for the voiceflute (another recorder) but Bb is new to me. Soooo, if it’s a complicated piece or has twiddly notes, you might see a performer saving themselves a headache by cheekily transposing the sheet music..! Over the debate of whether recorders are transposing instruments- eh. To be honest I never know what the answer is, and I’m not sure how much it matters. I do know we play in a bunch of keys, read the music in a bunch of different ways, and do what we gotte do to get those notes out!

[@momida1559]

@@Team_Recorder I recently attended a webinar with Simon Borutzki about all these "strange" recorders. He told us, that in the original scores (baroque times) Composers transposed the recorder parts for the demanded recorder type in alto fingerings, even for the soprano (Fifth Flute) which was not so common then. You can tell, when the recorder part is in a different key from the other instruments :-) Just like all the clarinet, trombone,... parts in modern orchestra music. (Maybe this wasn't the case all over Europe, but in some countries) But you had to own this special recorder to be able to play the piece, what would be very expensive. So they stopped transposing the parts. From that days we had to learn all the different fingerings...

[@citolero]

When I first got my Tim Cranmore "Tartu" B-flat soprano I wrote out two medieval pieces transposed so that I could continue to read them as if they were for my C soprano. But I quickly gave up on that, as it actually turned out to be really easy to make the mental switch and just "read up a note" from the original scores, especially after a bit of practice on some tunes that I knew well to begin with.

[@danieljclark5922]

Does anyone know of a fourth flute that costs under $100?

[@963saw]

Disregard the differences between renaissance and modern pitch for one moment and consider the following... The Sixth Flute is one octave higher than the voice flute, and The Fifth Flute* is one octave higher than the tenor recorder, but The Fourth Flute does not have a lower-octave equivalent. What if someone manufactured a tenor recorder in B flat? I would be their first customer! *(i.e. the soprano recorder)

[@HenryPh_am]

New video!!!!! XD

[@MMA-rc3mv]

3:17

[@TheMKEWERBY]

Sarah, with the voiceflute in D Have been considered a fourth flute?

[@Team_Recorder]

The voiceflute is an octave lower than the sixth flute! The numeration is to do with the degrees of the scale, F being the first degree in this case.

[@TheMKEWERBY]

@@Team_Recorder Thank you.

[@dantes9811]

Sarah I must say I like you.

[@xethlorien4736]

What is that bit at 2:00 that you play so often?

[@HenryPh_am]

Doen Daphne by Van Eyck :p

[@bl3313]

Interesting to see these videos on recorder makers. Apparently good makers were not always findable - in the late 1970s (about the time Walter van Hauwe et al were getting started?) a fellow named Daniel Waitzman began a book called "The Art of Playing the Recorder" with this depressing paragraph: The selection of a good concert recorder is a matter of utmost importance. Only a first-class instrument is suitable for serious work at the advanced level; anything less is worthless. "Second best," as far as recorders are concerned, is very bad indeed. Good instruments are almost impossible to obtain. Here, as in other aspects of the recorder world, mediocrity or worse is the rule, and excellence the exception.