What did LADY JANE GREY look like? | The nine day Queen | Streatham portrait | Lady Jane Grey’s face

What did LADY JANE GREY look like? It has long been assumed that there is no surviving portrait of the first Queen of England, also known as the nine day Queen because of how brief her reign was and for decades, even centuries, historians instead had to rely on a supposed description of her and images of her family( including her sister Lady Katherine Grey and their parents Frances Brandon and Henry Grey, Duke of Suffolk) which might offer some insight into Lady Jane Grey’s face. That all changed in 2006 however, when the National Portrait Gallery in London acquired a painting (known as the Streatham portrait) which it says is a copy of a lost original of Lady Jane Grey Dudley? In this Tudor history documentary from History Calling we’ll look at why the sole description of Lady Jane Grey’s appearance is a fraud, why some believe the Streatham portrait is this doomed teenaged Queen and why others are firmly against such an identification. We’ll examine the clothing and jewellery the sitter in this image wears (and what she isn’t wearing), the inscription above her right shoulder and what science can tell us about the age of the panel on which the portrait is painted and the type of paint used to create it. At the end I’ll give you my view on whether it is a portrait of Lady Jane Grey.
Also in this video is a brief overview of the childhood, the marriage to Guildford Dudley and the fall of Lady Jane Grey, after her family’s botched attempt to put her on the throne. This ultimately led to her becoming one of the Tudors’ greatest tragedies as she was executed at the age of just 16 or 17 in February 1554 at the Tower of London and on the orders of her cousin, Queen Mary I. The life of Lady Jane Grey may have been short, but she continues to fascinate nearly half a millennium after her death.
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LEARN MORE:
Leanda De Lisle, The Sisters Who Would Be Queen: The Tragedy of Mary, Katherine and Lady Jane Grey (HarperPress, 2010). amzn.to/3CHloRW (UK LINK) OR amzn.to/3GGtlJk (US LINK)
Eric Ives, Lady Jane Grey - A Tudor Mystery (Wiley-Blackwell, 2011) amzn.to/3k32r4M (UK LINK) OR amzn.to/3BCSOj3 (US LINK)
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Thumbnail: Streatham Portrait held at the National Portrait Gallery, London. Image from Wikimedia Commons (detail)
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Creative Commons licenses used see creativecommons.org/licenses/
Extra keywords (these are just to help the search engine)
Is this Lady Jane Grey
The face of Lady Jane Grey

[@HistoryCalling]

Do you think the Streatham portrait is Lady Jane Grey? Let me know below and remember to SUBSCRIBE and check out my PATREON site for extra perks at www.patreon.com/historycalling

[@finleykim]

I love history but my background is art history and I was about to write exactly what you ended saying about David Starkey. With all due respect, he's a bit of a diva. The quality of the painting itself can do with the fact that it is a copy as, I am sure you are aware, artists did and, still do, learn my copying other painters. From the art historical view point, it would be interesting to know who did the copy. The strongest argument for it being poor Lady Jane is the National Portrait Gallery splashing out such big money on the painting. This does not happen without a great deal of scrutiny and board approval and boards can be very exacting. The NPG is one of my favourite galleries in the world - it is just so rich and interesting - and their curatorial work is top shelf. So, I'll vote that yes, that's her. Poor young woman. Thank you for another fascinating video.

[@jn8ive60]

I believe that this portrait was intended to portray Lady Jane Grey, and that it was painted about forty years after her death. I still have to wonder, though, how accurately it portrays what she really looked like, since it's a copy painted by an artist of rather weak ability. My question is, is it possible it was painted by someone who wanted to paint her because she was a Protestant martyr, but had no idea what she looked like, so he just used someone else's face as a model?

[@marijeangalloway1560]

I think it truly depicts Jane, given the details of the rich gown and the jewels, which indicate a member of the royal family. It seems to me also that the sitter's features, including the shape of the face and mouth, are similar to the those in the authenticated portrait of Jane's sister Katherine. Spurious or not, the written description of Jane eerily matches with the sitter in the portrait: red lips, flexible mouth, reddish-brown eyes, reddish hair. Perhaps an anonymous contemporary source, now vanished, could have provided this, or a similar, description? Given its precise details, together with the emergence of the portrait, it seems so accurate and realistic. One more thing: what other "Lady Jane" in the sixteenth or any other century could be so easily identifiable with just that name and no surname?

[@0hMyLife]

Nothing to do with the portrait, but Jane Grey was definitely not the first queen of England. It was Matilda.

[@jn8ive60]

@@0hMyLife Matilda was never crowned, or formally declared Queen of England. Stephen was crowned. Matilda's son Henry II finally agreed to recognize Stephen as King in return for becoming his heir. I don't think she qualifies as a Queen of England, and I've never seen her listed as one. Of course, most lists don't include Jane Grey either, but I've seen a couple that have.

[@TikiJsLounge]

I have been a sculptor for 27 years and one thing I enjoy doing is looking at photographs of members of the same family to see which ones have the same likenesses. I believe this is Lady Jane, based on the likeness of the facial structure in the portrait to that of Jane’s sister Katherine in the portrait of her and her son. Both of the ladies have the same long, narrow faces that go down to a chin that is more pointed than broad. Both of their eyes are small and shaped similar. Their noses are each long and thin. Each of them have small, pert lips, with thin, separated petals on the upper lip and a more puckered bottom lip. Both of their eyebrows are shaped alike and curve around the same way. Even their foreheads are the same distance apart from the eyebrows to the hairlines. Lastly, the hairlines each go straight across the foreheads, with the exception of the Jane portrait having a part down the middle. If the part was not there, it would go across the same way as Katherine’s does. It is not rare for siblings to share the same features and in the two portraits, these two ladies share enough of the same facial features that I am convinced this portrait is that of Lady Jane.

[@HistoryCalling]

Hi, thank you watching and commenting. I loved reading your analysis of their facial structures from a sculptor's point of view. It was really fascinating :-)

[@csh43166]

My opinion of the Streatham portrait is that the sitter bears a strong resemblance to other members of Henry VIII's family, including Henry himself. I know so little about this period and art authentication, but it sounds logical to me that it could be her, and that it may be a copy of an original portrait, if the quality is not so good. Fascinating!

[@TheOnlyElle.]

I agree with Your assessment. Although the portrait is aging the sitter (and of general poor quality), the overall features of the sitter certainly look to be of the "Tudor" lineage. The genetic looks are strong, especially the Auburn/Red hair trait..

[@HistoryCalling]

Thanks Connie :-)

[@lauraeden6224]

The lady in this painting does resemble the young Elizabeth I around the eyes, which makes sense if it is a portrait of Jane, given that they were 1st cousins.

[@cornishmaid9138]

She was just a kid who was just a pawn in the power games of adults. 😞

[@HistoryCalling]

Yes, I think so too. Poor thing. 😥

[@TheOnlyElle.]

Agreed. Poor Jane, just a wee Lass..another Tudor Pawn caught up in a deadly game, of others making..I think G.R.R M is correct: the "Throne" is a Brutal "game"!!

[@susanmccormick6022]

And her parents were ambitious & grasping.And so cruel to the poor girl.

[@angr3819]

@@susanmccormick6022 Her father certainly was. Her mother would have been under his thumb so we can't really be sure what she would have wanted for her daughter.

[@bonniepinney2884]

Her story is truely a tragedy. And the worst part is, based on Henry's annulment to his first two wives Jane technically was the rightful heir... she was the definition of collateral damage.

[@Bus_Driver_Jay]

I do have to say that I find Lady Jane Grey to be one of the sadder tales of history.

[@HistoryCalling]

I know. She and Katherine Howard are the ones that really break my heart, at least for the Tudor era.

[@Bus_Driver_Jay]

@@HistoryCalling yes I second Katherine Howard. Strangely, as a non-tudor one, the White Ship disaster also hits me hard. I've no idea why in the slightest. Definitely a subject I hope you'll cover some day! ❤️

[@beautyforashes2022]

I've always felt so bad about the disastrous fate that befell Queen Jane/ Lady Jane Grey. She didn’t deserve what happened to her. She was a young girl, unwillingly caught up in the devices of men. And It goes without saying that it's a sick thing to execute a child, but unfortunately that was how it was back then...

[@HistoryCalling]

Couldn't agree more. Poor Jane :-(

[@gypsyhorsesense]

It also seems to me as if Mary was forced into the position having to take Jane's life so that it could not happen again. I honestly don't think that Mary believed that Jane had anything to do with it. However, her continued existence was a threat to Mary's regency.

[@MsLogjam]

Mary I paid for it karmically, it would seem.

[@EmilyGloeggler7984]

@@MsLogjam Karma doesn't exist, its an invention of the Buddhist cult. Nonetheless, Mary, inadvertantly, dug her own grave.

[@MsLogjam]

@@EmilyGloeggler7984 Buddhism is not a cult. As to whether karma or something like it actually exists, people who act rotten frequently come to rotten ends; whether someone calls it karma, just desserts, or reaping what one sows is the privilege of the speaker.

[@johntshorter]

Interesting! While I'm not an art historian, I'm deeply fascinated by the mysteries and provenances surrounding these portraits. They can prove to be just as engaging as the lives of their sitters and makes the Victorian invention of photography all the more pivotal! Starky can go jump off a cliff. His gatekeeper attitude to Tudor history (as well as his racism and misogyny) really do undercut his otherwise fantastic skills as an academic. I must say I wince a little every time you cite him, but I understand you can't really ignore his contributions if you want to do a thorough job researching this era. Looking forward to next week's video!

[@HistoryCalling]

I don't like him as a person either, but I really do find it impossible unfortunately to look at this particular era of history without considering what he's written. He's just too influential in the field at the present time.

[@freckles0829]

I'm obsessed with the videos where you discuss the physical appearances of different historical figures...it's absolutely fascinating! Your references and comprehensive knowledge of history is greatly appreciated and admired! Thank you for all of the hardwork and dedication you put into your content!

[@naomiskilling1093]

I mean, if the dating evidence points to it being painted only 50 years after the lifetime of Lady Jane Grey, and the portrait notes her as "Lady Jane", I don't see what else David Starkey is looking for beyond a time machine to see it being painted. Sometimes there is no obvious papertrail but that doesn't make it a fake. He isn't an art historian so I am unwilling to take his assertions over the people at the gallery who bought it who probably have had experts look at it. That being said...it is a very ugly painting. I'm sorry, that's just my personal opinion.

[@jamesaron1967]

I completely agree with your comment. People demand perfection from evidence when the truth sometimes stares them straight in the face and they still deny it. The only logical conclusion is that this portrait is Jane. It's of a poorer quality granted, but the subject cannot be anyone else from that time period.

[@HistoryCalling]

I agree. There's actually very good evidence for it being Jane, given how old it is. Starkey is happy enough to make leaps of logic when it suits him, like saying that Elizabeth of York taught Henry VIII to write, based on the similar way they wrote the letter e.

[@westzed23]

The painting had been damaged with scratching out the eyes and mouth. It might be the restorer who changed the face to a lesser view of beauty. The clothing, hands, and jewelry are quite pretty. Or the artist was not that good at painting faces.

[@sarrhodes8277]

It's very badly painted but the luxury of the clothing and presentation of the woman in it, suggests she was very important and wealthy. It's deemed to be her more by process of elimination.

[@ruthanneseven]

I read that she had composed a prayer book, which was published in her name, by Protestant sympethizers. A rare achievement! She was thought to be a great martyr after her death. That could be why she has the small book in hand. Her garments could be imaginary, as she was a queen for 9 days. The scratches are very telling as well. Her sister Mary survived, and could have directed an artist. Sad tale.

[@HistoryCalling]

Yes, I think it's her too. I wish we had the original though. I've seen copies of portraits of Elizabeth I where we have the original and such copies can stray quite dramatically from the source material.

[@christinetitus6388]

Friday night, time for tea and history calling! Another interesting video. I find Lady Jane Grey a remarkable young woman. She was Intelligent and had integrity. I believe it is her in this portrait, even if it is a copy made years later. Your reasoning of her dress and jewelry was convincing. Not to mention the inscription. It makes perfect sense to me. Like some else brought out her features bears a strong resemblance to the Tudor family. Thanks again for another well researched video.

[@HistoryCalling]

Thanks Christine. Glad you liked it :-)

[@erinwescott7284]

I see a facial resemblance between the woman in the Streatham portrait and the portrait miniature of Lady Katherine Grey in the Victoria and Albert museum, especially around the nose and mouth, and including the orientation of the head. I wonder if the unknown artist used an image of Katherine as a model for the Lady Jane Grey in the Streatham portrait, since we know it was created after Jane's death. I do believe that it is intended to be Lady Jane Grey, but may not actually be representative of her given that it was not painted during her lifetime. It could be a copy of a lost original or an artistic rendering based on family resemblance.

[@HistoryCalling]

Yes, I was wondering if I could see any family resemblances either. Katherine would have been dead by the 1590s too though, but I see what you mean that her likeness might have been used to help create the original portrait that this later one is based on.

[@kiernan415]

Another amazing video! Your assessment is spot on, as usual. After watching this, I do feel this is a likeness of Jane, regardless of the quality and it being painted long after her death. While Starkey is considered an authority on Tudor history, I've always considered him problematic in a variety of ways. As was eluded to here, his own ego is usually inserted into his formation of opinions, so not very reliable for that alone. He has a tendency to regurgitate old, sexist talking points as well when evaluating the behavior of the Tudor women. Infuriatingly, he often reduces Elizabeth I to being an anxious, often hysterical woman who was incapable of making decisions and has an even harsher view of Mary's abilities. So glad you and a few other women (on YT) are currently re-assessing their lives from a different perspective. This is by far one of my favorite channels. Thank you so much!!!

[@HistoryCalling]

Thanks Kieran. Yes, Starkey is an unpleasant individual from what I've seen of him, but unavoidable in Tudor studies at the present time unfortunately. I agree though, that he lets his ego get in the way sometimes and forgets to be objective.

[@TheOnlyElle.]

Oh, Starkey's a pompous brat! I don't believe He likes Women very much at All. The way He talks about Catherine Howard (for one!) is atrocious! In fact, the way He talks about Most Women is disgusting. He needs to pull his bloody minded head out of it's perpetually stuck position.. in His posterior!! 😂

[@kiernan415]

@@TheOnlyElle. 😂 I couldn't agree more Elle! I saw another comment here stating that "they hope Starkey falls off a cliff" for his atrocious depictions of women. Heck, if I ever saw him standing near a cliff, I'd be tempted to give him a push myself. Clearly, the man has deep seeded issues with women in general. He basically sees all female historical figures as simultaneously being sniveling, incompetent, hysterical, idiots and conniving, treacherous, duplicitous, power wielding threats to the realm. He "victim blames" all of Henry's wives, but you're right, his hot takes on Catherine Howard are especially heinous. I can't believe anyone takes him seriously anymore at this point.

[@denisecampbell6736]

@@TheOnlyElle. Oh!! Where is a Standing Ovation Emoji when we really need one? Well said!! Well said indeed!! Don’t even get me started on how he talked down to Lucy Worsley when they did that re enactment of Prince Edward’s Christening to make the 500th Anniversary of Hampton Court Palace. It couldn’t have possibly been because she’s high up the rungs at Historic Royal Palaces & he’s not. Oh nooooooo...It just couldn’t be..... 😉

[@JediJan]

I tend to agree with you that this is a later copy of an original painting by a less professional artist. Find it most strange, and disappointing, her bones were never found where originally interred. If one had her skull certainly her features could have been more accurately defined by archaelogical experts.

[@HistoryCalling]

To the best of my knowledge, there's never been any attempt to find her bones. The floor of the Chapel of St Peter Ad Vincula was dug up in the 1870s for repairs and Anne Boleyn was found, but she was right in front of the altar. I think Jane is buried a little further back. If you see my video on Digging up Anne Boleyn, I think I included a map of the burial spots in it which should help to show what I mean.

[@lilenwasnothere6867]

young bones break down more quickly. they probably wouldn't exist anymore, as heartbreaking as that is.

[@paulgibbings9553]

Looking at the book in her hand, it does look remarkably similar in colour and size to the one housed in the British Library, which was the prayer book she took with her onto the scaffold. Quite clearly this is not definitive proof, but it is rather small compared to many books in similar portraits. Facially the features are similar to portraits of her sisters Katherine & Mary. They all have red hair with similarly shaped noses and eyebrows. I genuinely have no idea if this is an accurate depiction of Lady Jane, but i would like to think that it is a representation of her.

[@beth7935]

Wow, what a great observation about the prayer book! That's the kind of small detail that can be really telling. I don't know anything about portraits or artifacts, but it _sounds_ like something that could be significant!

[@HistoryCalling]

I'd love it to be her as well. As with Katherine Howard, it would be very sad to think of their faces being lost to history.

[@annbower6278]

You're right about the prayer book also known as a missal, it was small, carried by the person's side nearly all the time in a pouch of its own.

[@etherealechoes9907]

Another great video. Love the jaunty intro music. Timely as I've just watched the Helena Bonham Carter film of her and read a novel about the 3 sisters. I've always loved the painting at 7:14. Though not of Tudor style there's something hauntingly beautiful about it. I agree the Streatham portrait could be Lady Jane. I'm not personally a fan of Starky. I think the little book could even be a prayer book as you know royals had beautiful small ones they treasured and the likeness to a young Elizabeth; not in looks but fashion and the book could show two staunch Protestant Queens. I feel sorry for Lady Jane. It's sad her and her husband died so young.

[@HistoryCalling]

Thank you :-) Yes, I think a prayer book is a definite possibility too. It's nice to see someone remember how young Guildford was as well. He was just a teenager too after all.

[@annbower6278]

I had also seen the same movie with Helena Bonham Carter, she nailed with its youthfulness Lady Jane had & teenage angst Lady Jane felt going thru puberty.

[@shelleysprouse5687]

Right?! If hell is real it’s going to be full of all these murder happy rulers.

[@charitysheppard4549]

I am always so impressed by your research. I agree with you about the portrait being Lady Jane, as that seems the most rational conclusion. I do get the impression that you are not the biggest fan of David Starkey. Like others, I have always wondered if he does not stand behind the photos is indeed because her was not the one who found it. I look forward ro your video each week and look forward to more.

[@kirankaur5056]

To honest as soon as she said Starkey said it wasn't her I was fairly sure it must be

[@HistoryCalling]

Thank you. I think Starkey is usually a very good historian (though I feel he gets a little carried away sometimes), but I dislike a lot of what he says. He made some horribly racist comments a couple of years ago for instance. He's one of the pre-eminent names in the field of Tudor history at the moment though, so it simply isn't possible to leave his work out of the conversation.

[@kirankaur5056]

@@HistoryCalling those racist comments and his tendency to whitewash British history is the main reason I lost trust in his analysis. His theorising for me is too narrow and almost always seems to fall within an agenda of furthering his own career

[@leeblack6139]

Brava to you! I have the three part series about the Nine Days Queen on my You Tube like list. It's fascinating for the history. But the portrait at the end of the show is so... baby dollish to my mind. This one looks a thousand times more accurate. Even if it is a copy made 50 years later. I'm with the people who think the naysayer is just upset he didn't find it first. He can just get over himself and move on.

[@HistoryCalling]

Thank you 😀 Yeah, I think it's more likely to be her than anyone else too.

[@TheOnlyElle.]

Lol I like Your attitude toward "naysayers" I believe this portrait to be of Jane Grey. The over all features are similar to Mary, Elizabeth, Edward and, even Henry! And, there's no mistaking the "Tudor" trait of the red/auburn hair. Considering red hair is produced from a recessive gene, the Tudor's had plenty of it in their genetic line..

[@TheOnlyElle.]

I'm so happy to see a video from History Calling on My timeline!! My notifications for this channel had been turned off!! On a better note- I have a few videos to watch and catch up on! Poor Jane Grey yet another young Girl, caught up in the Tudor's, male dominated, world of Machismo mess, then killed for Her 9 day "betrayal".. just so sad!!

[@HistoryCalling]

Welcome back Elle. 🙂 I noticed you'd been radio silent for a little while. Hope you enjoy your catch up though.

[@TheOnlyElle.]

@@HistoryCalling Aww thankyou very much..I must be very .. err..vocal 😂! I've missed Your videos and Your lovely voice! I'm looking forward to catching up on your other work too x

[@hiworld7306]

The lady on the portrait is Lady Jane Grey. The painting obviously is pointing to a women in 1550s, the missing heraldry maybe attributed to the fact that many people didn't have anything like that back then, Catherine Howard portrait was called as Jane Grey as said in the video. Jane's sister as shown in the video also had long face. Your video was great l love how precisely you research.

[@HistoryCalling]

Thank you so much :-)

[@daegudiva]

The story of Lady Jane always infuriates me. So unfair to the young woman.

[@jamesaron1967]

It infuriates me as well.

[@HistoryCalling]

Same here. It's a toss up as to whether I get more annoyed about her or Katherine Howard.

[@leticiagarcia9025]

After listening to all your hard work you put into to find if this is Lady Jane Grey I agree with your deduction. It’s truly fascinating! Thank you. I appreciate your hard work to bring us this video on Lady Jane Grey.

[@HistoryCalling]

Thanks Leticia. I'm glad you found the video enjoyable.

[@wncjan]

Great video about my favorite character from the Tudor period. 👍🏻 I have no idea if the paiting is actually depicting Jane Grey, or if it just a later artist's attempt to show what he belived she looked like. That is, I'm not sure if it is a copy of an older painting or not. I do believe though that Lady Jane deserves another video though, telling a bit more about her story. 🤠

[@HistoryCalling]

Don't worry, she'll get one. I just fancied doing something about her to start off with that wasn't too depressing (at least compared to what other videos will have to cover).

[@wncjan]

@@HistoryCalling Looking forward to it

[@InThisEssayIWill...]

How does the saying go? When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable must be the truth. I think it's perfectly possible, but like so many things in history we will simply never know for sure.

[@HistoryCalling]

Exactly. Sherlock Holmes would be proud of you :-)

[@ns-wz1mx]

I love topics that don’t have a solid conclusive answer, and you can have so much room to imagine what she may have looked like! I’ve never actually seen the portrait before until now. great video!!💜 👑 📚

[@HistoryCalling]

Thank you. Glad you liked it :-)

[@jerryskeepero]

I think it is. Since it was Mary that sentenced her to death, I can see someone wanting to copy a painting of her after Mary’s death. I bet the original was magnificent but burnt or lost while Mary was queen. This one I can see someone painting by memory as a tribute or something.

[@HistoryCalling]

It could be from memory, you never know. It's certainly not a great quality image. I've always found it quite cartoonish.

[@MsLogjam]

I always liked Helena Bonham Carter's portrayal of Jane, especially the beginning of the movie where her parents and John Dudley were closing in on a deer that they'd been hunting, a very obvious metaphor for what they would soon do to Jane.

[@gothmamasylvia462]

It could very well be Lady Jane. The name on the portrait being done at the time the portrait was painted was very telling. The jewelry, could have been the imagination of the artist, but the style of dress is true to the time period. When the painting was actually made would have been in a solidly Protestant time, with great sympathy towards this young woman who was (in my opinion) the victim of power-seeking relatives. It's a shame there weren't more artists around that time period of the quality of Hans Holbein. To my eyes, his portraits look more like photographs, so realistic they are.

[@susanmccormick6022]

Goth mama Sylvia you are so right.Her mother Frances,in particular.I think she took more after Brandon himself,than Mary Tudor.The cruelty they imposed on Jane was unbelievably vile.Jane said herself,she could do nothing right for them.I suspect her time with Katherine Parr was the only peace she knew.She had no wish to marry Guildford Dudley either but was pushed into that too.And he sounds like a real dork.Poor kid.I hope she is at peace now.

[@HistoryCalling]

I completely agree about Holbein - he was a once in a generation find and we see so few other portraits from this period of the quality he offered.

[@leonnehaaijman4709]

I’ve only recently discovered your channel but I totally love it. I enjoy the way you present the videos and now I find myself on Amazon, looking for a book on British kings and queens. Keep up the good work!

[@kaitefink2031]

Thank you for the work you put into these videos. You have very sound evidence to support this being a painting of Jane. Possibly by a less talented or newer painter producing copies of originals that were meant for sale to less wealthy patrons? I don't know that its a bad piece, it's a different style to other more famous works, though it has quite a bit of detail to it. Will you ever work on a video of Jane's sisters? They certainly had interesting lives too. Thanks again!

[@stephencarrillo5905]

Great video as always. I was thinking about your upcoming chapter while enjoying Thanksgiving dinner with family and also talked up your series with my sisters. Based on your video presentation, I'd like to think the portrait is in fact Lady Jane; the damage you noted could indeed be tied to her Protestant martyrdom. Although I'm still making my way through James' excellent bio of Catherine Parr (I tend to read several books at once), I'll definitely use your links to purchase the books you reference. Thank you again and be well.

[@HistoryCalling]

Thanks Stephen and Happy Thanksgiving from across the pond (albeit slightly late). I hope your sisters like the videos too. 😁

[@preopdollop]

Another terrific video HC. Very professionally presented and edited, thanks! My hunch is considering the evidence it IS a picture of Jane. Maybe Starkey scratched her eyes out - he's such a knob!

[@HistoryCalling]

Thanks Ian :-)

[@fran2177]

Sometimes, when one is ill, one looks "older" even though they are young. I believe this is Lady Jane, who may have been under great stress and it showed.

[@HistoryCalling]

That's certainly true, though I would also add that I personally find it very hard to judge ages in portraits from this era. Sometimes people just look the same age from about 13-45. I suspect they told the artist to remove some of their wrinkles and grey hairs! :-)

[@JohnDoe-tx8lq]

I duno! 🤔 But (as very much a non-expert!) any paper trail that far back must be extremely rare, especially if it's a copy to start with, painted by a relatively unknown artist. But presumably commissioned by a fan / admirer, it's possible the jewellery (or even dress) may have been amended at the time and not in the original painting it was a copy of, to make the image more impressive. The point may have been to create a nice Portrait of Lady Jane Grey to hang on the wall, rather than producing an exact copy of the original. Maybe for an unremarkable reason such as: "I don't really like those diamonds, could you swap them with something more interesting?"... so there would be no other references to those valuables anywhere. It's a piece of art, not necessary an official record of reality. 🤓

[@HistoryCalling]

Excellent points 😃

[@amandajones6481]

When I visited the National Gallery in London, I bought a print of Paul Delaroche's famous painting "The Execution of Lady Jane Grey," and had it framed. The painting itself is very beautiful, despite being completely inaccurate. Delaroche took a lot of artistic licence in his depiction of Jane reaching for the block. He painted Jane, about to be beheaded, INSIDE the Tower of London, which she wasn't. She was executed on Tower Green, which was outside, although still within the Tower walls. Delaroche put "his" Jane inside the Tower for dramatic purposes, so that the viewer gets a real feeling of the darkness of the Tower and the terror that Jane must have felt, knowing that her father had committed high treason, not just once, but twice, against Queen Mary who was, after all, the rightful heir to the English throne. He also painted Jane wearing white, as a symbol of her innocence and purity of spirit. I also believe that Delaroche's painting turned Jane Grey into a victim, and, although she WAS a victim in many ways, I don't think she would have wanted to be SEEN AS ONE. In fact, I'm sure she would have hated the very thought of it. I've read many books about Lady Jane Grey and she was a very intelligent and devout girl, who faced her own execution with amazing dignity and courage. ❤ Edit: The Streatham Portrait could certainly be real, although it is of poor quality, because so many people revered Jane as a Protestant Martyr, and this reverence began very quickly after her death. Certainly, by the time the painting was done, Jane was considered to be The Great Protestant Martyr of England. People like Heinrich Bullinger, the famous Swiss Protestant Reformer, with whom Jane conversed by letter, as well as lots of people in England, would have paid much to get a portrait of her. But then, as Professor Starkey said, why is it so poorly done? It's a conundrum!!!

[@BeagleLove13]

Her family probably started scheming to get the throne before Edward even died so they probably commissioned the original painting showing Jane as queen in advance so it would be ready once they put the crown on her head.

[@HistoryCalling]

Hmm, that's an interesting idea and certainly possible. Yes, I think they were angling to get her the throne before he died.

[@shelwyatt7203]

Really interesting, thank you. My understanding of the English royal succession is, the eldest son will inherit the throne first, followed by any subsequent sons, then the eldest daughter etc. A 15 year old king, was not in the position to change the bloodline succession rules, unless there had been another precedent I am unaware of. Wether or not he liked his sisters, they were next in line. Poor Lady Grey, a tragic pawn. I reflect on all the female princesses forced to marry men, in order to bring together political peace between countries. I can only imagine what behaviours they were forced to endure.

[@maryann4827]

Under normal circumstances that would indeed have been the rules of succession. But at that time nobles in charge of the realm were determined to stop England from returning to Rome. Henry had yanked the nation away from the rule of the Pope and taken all the lands and property owned by the Catholic Church and given it to various noble families. These nobles had no intention of giving back all the abbeys, estates, lands and gold. The only way they could keep their plunder was if the Crown passed to a Protestant, not a Catholic.

[@joeedwards226]

That was the situation, but not as statute at the time. When Henry VII seized the throne he passed an act that the crown would pass to “heirs of his body”, which as you say would be Henry VIII followed by his children, but Mary and Elizabeth were both deemed illegitimate, and there was no precedent of a Queen Regnant, so it was only Henry’s will that included them, and as sovereign Edward’s will took precedence, regardless of age or who was really behind it. Edward’s will also initially excluded Jane due to being a woman but was quickly amended when he was dying, and then specifically noting Jane as the exception to otherwise only males. It was only then the Bill of Rights a century later that limited the power of the monarch and constitutionally laid down the succession.

[@shelwyatt7203]

@@joeedwards226 Thank you to both History Calling and yourself for taking the time to fully explain what was going on at that time. I have enjoyed the discussions and feel I now have a new knowledge of that time in history. I am sure there are many others reading these comments and also appreciating your contribution.

[@shelwyatt7203]

@@maryann4827 Thank you for taking the time to write, I really appreciate your knowledge of the complexities playing out at that time. It has given me further insight to include when watching or reading the tragic events of Lady Greys last days.

[@maryann4827]

@@joeedwards226 It's all very tenuous and subjective. The Tudors technically had no right to the throne in the first place. Henry VII was ineligible because his link to the ruling line was born out of wedlock. If there's money and/or power on the line you'd be amazed how quickly people will ignore statutes.

[@laurenmiller3886]

Excellent video! Lady Jane Grey is one of my favorite historical figures and as such, I really enjoyed this video 🤗

[@HistoryCalling]

Thanks Lauren. Glad you liked it 😃

[@johnslaughter5475]

Wouldn't it be great to have a time machine where you could go back with cameras and take all the pics you wanted?

[@McRambleOn]

Yes I think it’s her. Love the exploration of artistic works and their symbolism and cross referencing contemporary works to confirm or question whether they’re “true” likenesses and reflect their actual personality, or more propagandist per se,(e.g. Eliz I requesting pox marks be excluded). I also love exploring historic costume and especially jewelry, particularly bc one is able to follow pieces through history by way of portraits and known belongings. Great video. Like frwd to more! You do such a great job researching and reflecting upon all the items of historic importance that exist and which can help to bolster our understanding and help us envision, or literally picture, the past.

[@theezaction]

Speaking of what did she look like, a quick interweb search of your image proves fruitless. My God, what a voice though! You could read the phone book and make it interesting. Hopefully we won't have to wait 500 years for your image to surface 😬 Keep up the great work, I always find your videos very informative and entertaining.

[@jamesaron1967]

She's smart if she didn't post her image on the Internet. Best advice I can give is to limit one's digital footprint, or at least use aliases to confound the various bots out there. Privacy concerns are ever on the increase.

[@HistoryCalling]

Haha, thank you. I should get you to respond to the people who complain about my accent and try to 'correct' it to make me sound American. My pronunciation of 'Tower' (as in Tower of London) seems to really distress some of them!

[@HistoryCalling]

Thanks James :-)

[@jamesaron1967]

@@HistoryCalling No problem and great work, BTW.

[@DMS-pq8]

I first learned of the Lady Jane story from the 1986 movie with Helena Bonham Carter playing Jane, Though I've since learned the film was full of inaccuracies

[@HistoryCalling]

I haven't seen it in ages, but a few people have mentioned it here and you're all putting my in the mood to watch it again :-)

[@chroniclesoflaura]

She was an unwilling pawn in the Tudor game of thrones. She didn’t even want to be Queen. How she kept her composure I will never know!

[@wellingtonsboots4074]

Thank you enjoyed the video. For mine, we have the history of this period, we know what happened to Jane. For sure, I would like the portrait to be of her, but if it is not i'll take what we we think we know of her already.

[@HistoryCalling]

Thank you. I'd like it to be her too. It would be sad if her face was lost to history.

[@od1452]

Thanks. Her death seems so tragic to me. I find it interesting that Edward was old enough to be king but his decision was not supported by all his followers . Leaving sexism out , it does seem possible that Edward knew his siblings better than we think.. Maybe he though either choice would doom England in bloody civil war... which wouldn't be far off. Was Jane's death just a way to insure there would be no chance for supporters to have a legal claim to the thrown? The "Martyrs" theory sounds plausible to me but even if true.. that is not a guarantee that it was based on a true image of her.

[@HistoryCalling]

I don't really know what Mary was thinking when she killed Jane, as her claim to the throne simply passed to her younger sister Katherine Grey. It seems to have been to remove Jane as a figurehead, but this flaw in that logic has always bothered me. Edward knew his siblings of course, but he seems to have seriously underestimated the strengths of them both.

[@katjack2780]

@@HistoryCalling Mary didn't originally want to execute Jane. It was only when Jane's father attempted to raise a rebellion in her name that Mary was forced to face the fact that keeping Jane alive would also increase the chance of more rebellions (something her grandfather knew quite well).

[@prarieborn6458]

@@HistoryCalling Re: Why did Queen Mary execute Lady Jane ? I have read much about them and I am trying to recall the source, but it was written that Queen Mary was betrothed to Prince (or King) Phillip of Spain. Mary was almost past childbearing age, desperate to marry and desperately in love with Phillip. She only had his portrait to love and had not personally met him. Mary wanted to spare Lady Jane’s life, if only she would accept Catholic baptism, and maybe only just renounce her claim to the throne. Queen Mary was not portrayed as a monster, but as a sensitive soul not wanting to begin her marriage with an execution. . Phillip, however, insisted she excute Jane before he would come to England and marry her. Phillip wanted to insure there would be no chance of an uprising in favor of Jane. And of course, the English were against the Spanish marriage as they feared Phillip would rule England as Mary’ could or would grant the Crown Matrimonial to Phillip. I am not clear as to why Phillip did not claim England after Mary died. But we do know that Spain tried to conquer England with the Spanish Armada years later in Queen Elizabeth the First’s reign. As to the fate of Katherine, Jane’s sister, Queen Elizabeth keot her locked up her whole life so she could not marry and have children to threaten her thron. , But life found a way and she did have a secret marriage and had not one but two babies, all the while in prison.

[@jamesaron1967]

@@HistoryCalling Queen Mary couldn't keep her alive for very similar reasons why Elizabeth couldn't keep May Stuart alive after the disaster of the Babington Plot. These women were powerful symbols of their respective faiths, and would continue to incite rebellions regardless if they were personally involved or if the true perpetrators were executed or not. The head of the snake had to be cut off to eliminate the threat, at least in the near term. In regards to the line of succession passing on to Katherine, once Jane was executed an example would be made of usurpers to serve as a deterrent. Even possessing royal blood would not spare the charged. It was probably deemed crucial for Mary to establish a harsh tone to her rule in the onset of her reign in order to survive in an era of religious turmoil. The likelihood others would raise Katherine as a claimant to the throne would have been greatly diminished.

[@TinaBiebe]

@@HistoryCalling - First, such a great video. It was my first one from your channel and I’ll definitely return. As far as Mary’s reasoning for having Jane executed, this is what I have always read, and I’m unsure if this has changed over time or not. As others have said, the Wyatt Rebellion was the last straw and cemented Jane’s fate (her father did participate in it), but of course Elizabeth came under suspicion too. Supposedly, Jane’s execution was at the behest of Spain. Mary was in negotiations to marry her cousin, and the Spanish ambassador (Renard? Apologies. I haven’t seen his name in a while) was pressuring the already desperate Mary. “I can’t advise Philip to step foot on hostile ground when Your Grace has enemies all over the place that she can’t control.” Something to that effect if you get my meaning. Mary didn’t want to execute Jane, but she wanted Philip as her husband so she acquiesced; Elizabeth was supposed to be the next on the way to the block. Like I said, I don’t know if this explanation has now been set aside, but I read it so often over the years, I thought it was factual. Anyway, my two cents based on the two cents of others. 😄 Keep up the great work!

[@mikaelakindblom4368]

Very interesting and very persuasive. I really love listening to your history lessons! Thank you!

[@graham76man]

I was struck by the resemblance in the portraits to depictions of Queen Elizabeth's pictures of the 1590's. The long fingers not well painted (hands are the most difficult things for any artist to do). The probable colour loss often seen in pictures back then. The copying of pictures from previous times I think was not at all unusual at that time. In fact the picture is a lot like Elizabeth in the face. That could be someone wanting it to look like the Queen at that time, but there's a better explanation than that. One of hereditary features. She was descended from Henry VIII's sister, so genes could make her face appear a bit like his daughter. The red hair is another giveaway to the Tudor line. Incidentally even if the bloke that had made it up about the freckles, he would have been correct by default. Since red hair people do tend to have freckles! Though they are never seen in portraits. The name also does give it away! As for David, what he knows about history you could put on a postage stamp. 90% of his documentaries on TV are infill. I hope the NPG have more tests done, X-Rays and that sort of thing. They will tell us more than anything else.

[@HistoryCalling]

It's so true what you say about the hands. There are a number of reasons I don't love the Hever Castle portrait of Anne Boleyn, but one of them is that I find her fingers just look unnatural. She did have long fingers (as we know from the description of her bones in 1877), but they look out of proportion in that image. Then of course there are the odd hands in the portraits of Richard III, but that may have been down to Tudor propaganda. I agree this sitter does look a little like a young Elizabeth here, with less vivid hair, but as you say, it's possible there was a family resemblance.

[@MadHatterDJ-]

She looks a lot like Janes sister. I think it’s a copy of a much higher quality original. I do think it likely is her.

[@brianbonner7128]

I find this fascinating , because at the moment I am tracing my family tree, and have just found Lady Jane in my tree, on the de grey branch. Thank you for the information

[@MsDemonBunny]

I agree that it's likely a copy of an original portrait of Jane. It's "low quality" could be that it was copied/painted by a student honing their skills, perhaps sympathetic towards Jane or just liked her, and decided she made a good subject for practice. And/or wanted a copy of their own. It's not like the painter could snap a photo, so painting (or drawing or sculping) was the only way to have a picture. And maybe the copying painter feared for the original and this was a way to preserve the image if there was a real possiblity Jane's image might be erased. Happened in ancient Egypt a lot too. New ruler comes in and cleans house by erasing all evidence of who came before.

[@adrians6488]

I've lived most of my life near to Bradgate Park, and it's one of my favourite places to walk or run. And I've always felt a sadness for her since learning about her at junior school. Allegedly (according to my junior school form teacher) the nearby hamlet of Copt Oak was named as such as legend has it the trees in Bradgate Park were coppiced by the family as a mark of remembrance after her execution. Wouldn't want to say whether this was true or urban myth, though!

[@HistoryCalling]

I've neve heard that story, but it's a lovely one 🙂

[@EH23831]

What a great story… local oral history is history nonetheless ☺️

[@susanmccormick6022]

As a firm fan of The Plantagenet dynesty,Bradgate is somewhere I would love to visit.Actually I understood Elizabeth Woodville's old home was a ruin.But I'd still like to see it.Which county is it in & whose the owner now?Hope u have time to reply Adrian & thanks for the tree story.

[@adrians6488]

@@susanmccormick6022 Hi Susan, Bradgate Park is about 4 or 5 miles outside of Leicester, and the ruins of Bradgate House are in the middle of the park. Back when I was at school it was possible to walk amongst the ruins and there was a small display of the history of the house and of Lady Jane Grey in the chapel. But, unfortunately, now for safety and preservation, access into the buildings isn't allowed. But it still looks impressive (early Tudor red brick buildings surrounded by a wall) and is in a gorgeous setting. And if you visit and are lucky, you might be serenaded by a peacock or two. You can walk up to the external wall but not inside the walled area. But there is a cafe and small visitor centre inside the park near to the ruins. Bradgate Park was put into a trust in the 1920s so that the people of Leicestershire would always have open parkland to visit, so it's free to visit and open all year 'round during daylight hours. The main entrance is in the village of Newtown Linford where there is a cafe, gift shop etc. and a pay carpark. And there are nearby pubs and cafes in the village. And, if you have a car, it's about 15 miles from Newtown Linford to Bosworth Battlefield. Also, on a Plantagenet theme, there's a Richard III exhibition in Leicester, near to the cathedral, where he's buried.

[@susanmccormick6022]

@@adrians6488 Sadly I no longer have a car.And sorry to hear access to the buildings is not allowed.I don't know Newton Linford but like the name.Been to Bosworth several times as my friend has a car & I am for The White Rose.We hope to go to Bosworth Town next yr but maybe Leic is too far for her.Thanks for responding.I wonder if the keepers of Bradgate would allow access if I say I do archaeology?My late partner & I got into trouble some years ago,taking a look at some Victorian buildings.Mike,being his usual sassy self replied to the guy that "Being archaeologists,we could go anywhere!"That's Canadian humor for ya!LOL.

[@johnny196775]

Your work is as entertaining as it is informative.

[@edithengel2284]

Thank you for yet another well researched and thoughtful video. I have been reluctant to accept that this is Jane, but you have convinced me.

[@HistoryCalling]

You're welcome. I only wish it was an original portrait and not a rather poor copy :-(

[@EmoBearRights]

I think it is Lady Jane Grey and prominent Jane Austen fan threw a similar hissy fit when what was probably a portrait of her was unearthed.

[@robertdudley4017]

One of my favourite tudor queen's, its a possiblely lady Jane I agree, thank you as always historycalling. 😊

[@HistoryCalling]

Thanks Robert 😄

[@robertdudley4017]

My plesure historycalling 😊

[@janicemoss5818]

I saw her name etched in the tower. I was brought to tears much to my embarrassment in front of the other tourists. It was a profound moment that I didn't expect.

[@HistoryCalling]

Yes, I've seen that too. They think it was maybe written by her husband, but they're not sure. It was very sad. Anne Boleyn's falcon badge (minus a crown) is in there too.

[@alliewhitlock621]

I'm a little late to the party but my area of expertise is Medieval art history (though I do dabble in other eras such as classical and renaissance). I wanted to add to the point of "not all artists had the skills of Hans Holbein". There was a reason he was Henry's court painter; no artist at this point in England had the "skills" sufficient for court paintings which is why Holbein got the job. It would make sense that the image, whether a copy of an earlier painting (which I believe) or not, is of "lesser" quality. Of all of the great artists of the 16th century, very few of them were from the UK (technically John White fits this time frame but he didn't use oils or paint royalty, to the best of my knowledge).

[@johnpeter4184]

I have no idea or enough information to express an intelligent opinion. However there will now be a YT ground swell of Lady Jane docs headed my way. I've watched several about Wellington and find him to be well worth the time spent. I can appreciate what the 16th century means for the turn of British history but so much is diminished by the Tudor obcession imo. My earliest hearing of Lady Jane was mothers in the 1950s asking difficult daughters, "who do you think you are Lady Jane?" Or just being accused of being her. I have no idea of what it meant but it was never contested. Looking forward to crown jewels. 😉 Northern Ireland? North West 200 comes to mind. 😃 🍎 An old Yankee in SoCal thanks you.

[@HistoryCalling]

Haha, yes the algorithm does tend to swamp you with things you've shown even the vaguest interest in. I've never heard the expression 'do you think you're Lady Jane'. That's quite interesting. Thanks for watching 😃

[@karenashworth5743]

@@HistoryCalling my mum used to call me Lady Jane when I was in trouble , a frequent occurrence unfortunately !

[@rouxmizztypoz6778]

It's also worth noting the colour of her gown. It appears to be a deep red or crimson, which was the colour of religious martyrdom - It's certainly not very concrete evidence but if this was painted sometime in the 1590s it may be a subtle but telling indication as to the identity of the sitter.

[@leefr76]

Just a suggestion, it would be interesting to do a video on Henry V life, or a small series. A fascinating period in English history.

[@HistoryCalling]

Absolutely. I was just thinking that last week actually after watching the movie 'The King'. I might start with why he had his portrait painted in profile as they didn't bother showing his facial scar in that film and it's one of the more famous stories about him.

[@FandersonUfo]

if Jane had been born male it might have worked out for the Brandons - the picture is her but very far from a useful portrait

[@HistoryCalling]

Oh definitely. Mary would have had a much trickier job ousting a man. Yes, it's not a great quality portrait. Quite cartoonist. Still, beggars can't be choosers as they say. It's all we've got.

[@FandersonUfo]

@@HistoryCalling - poor Jane - very hard to forgive Mary for her neck - she was fluent in several languages and would have been a fascinating conversationalist perhaps - such a waste

[@HistoryCalling]

@@FandersonUfo I know. She was a real tragedy. 😥

[@jamesaron1967]

@@FandersonUfo Yes, Jane's academic accomplishments were on par with Elizabeth's. I don't know how she would have compared as a queen regnant being so young as she was, but her intellect must have been impressive. Her fate is so tragic.

[@FandersonUfo]

@@jamesaron1967 - much would have depended on her young husband of course - there was no precedent for the role of a ruling Queen's consort yet - I believe Jane did have the sense to limit Dudley to the title of Duke if her reign had withstood Mary's challenge - she definitely had the education most 16th century Princes were expected to have - an interesting what if of course but ultimately the tragic death of a very innocent and beautiful soul

[@brendonmcmorrow3886]

Another thoughtful and interesting upload. Was there some reason why you didn’t mention the Syon House portrait?

[@missscarlett5464]

I don't know if it's due to the skill level of the artist but this figure looks more mature/older than a teenager. Especially compared to the youthful face depicted in the portrait of Queen Elizabeth shown.

[@avalonkerr8332]

Actress here: I now need to research this inspiration for Shrew's Baptista (a fave character of mine!)

[@alisonridout]

Thank you for another great video. I'm in belief that it is actually Jane and it's how I imagine her also. Alison

[@HistoryCalling]

Thanks Alison :-)

[@ns-wz1mx]

completely forgot it was friday! holiday weekend got me all backwards today 🤣

[@HistoryCalling]

Haha, I know the feeling 😀

[@TheOnlyElle.]

Happy Thanksgiving from Scotland! Slange! 🥃

[@ns-wz1mx]

@@TheOnlyElle. oh im honored thank you!

[@michaeljohnston6856]

This is such a great channel.

[@HistoryCalling]

Thanks Michael :-)

[@wendybond2848]

I know nothing of art history. I wonder if this is a copy of a painting of Jane which still existed at the time this one was painted. Could it have been painted by an apprentice painter as a practice piece? Could this explain why a painting of such a wealthy person, was not itself a high quality work?

[@Moebian73]

Another very well done video. :) I have yet to be wrong about your opinions at the end, if we listen closely to everything you've said & all the tones of the narration, it's quite easy to guess what Ms. History Calling thinks. :)

[@HistoryCalling]

Thanks Sean :-)

[@elinorfr1525]

She is the most tragic figure in Tudor's history.

[@beastieber5028]

I enjoy all of your video history calling from Bea

[@HistoryCalling]

Thanks Bea :-)

[@beastieber5028]

Iareagee with you history calling from Bea

[@mimimatasar3699]

I don't know , seems to good to be true, those Tudors were good at destroying there enemies completely.

[@HistoryCalling]

I don't think Elizabeth would have considered Jane an enemy though. They knew each other whilst under Catherine Parr and Thomas Seymour's care and there's nothing to suggest they didn't get along well. I don't know that Elizabeth would have minded portraits of Jane being made late in her reign. That said, she had a difficult relationship with Jane's sisters, who were technically her heirs under Henry VIII's will.

[@mimimatasar3699]

@@HistoryCalling your great Ms History , but don't you think even the slightest suggestion of Jane's legitimacy to the thrown may have "changed "Elizabeth s fondness for her cousin, lest we recall Mary queen 👑 of Scott's! So enjoyed this.

[@ComedorDelrico]

I think it is Jane. Although the quality of the painting is relatively poor, the original might have been much better quality. Thanks for a great video!

[@EmilyGloeggler7984]

Out of all of the Tudors, Queen Jane Gray has earned my respect.

[@coyotedust]

It looks a lot like her sister's portrait with her child.

[@jeogle4657]

I believe the portrait is Katherine Parr. The jewelry is similar to what she was wearing in the Scrots and Master John portraits. However, Jane did live with Katherine and may have inherited the jewel from her when she passed away. In my opinion, the Syon House portrait would be more a accurate representation. Jane was said to be very sober in dressing and disliked wearing jewels or fancy clothing. Holbein's drawings of the court were also labeled, but labeled at a much later date. It's a mystery, that's for sure.

[@HistoryCalling]

I've heard the Katherine Parr theory before, however the lack of a wedding ring and the Lady Jayne inscription are what made me discount her. Katherine was married, pretty much constantly from the age of 17, but not only was she simply not wealthy enough or important enough to be painted younger than that, she also would have been wearing different clothing (dating to the late 1520s) had she been painted before her first marriage. It is as you say, a good historical mystery though. Thanks for watching and commenting.

[@SurferJoe1]

There is a phenomenon I've always noted (and I wonder if there's a name for it): someone arguing against a theory raises the standard to proof-beyond-a-reasonable-doubt, or even proof-beyond-all-doubt. Thus the theory is faced with the prosecutor's burden, while the negative theory has the luxury of the defendant, needing to prove nothing. Of course a historian would love to meet that burden: we'd love to have the provenance of the painting, a contemporary description of it, and information about the artist. That's just a luxury we're not going to enjoy very often in studying this era. Scholarly agnosticism is healthy, but I don't think the historian is required to be a virulent atheist in the absence of definitive proof. I think 'probability' is the best standard in these cases.

[@steveosullivan5262]

While growing up in America, I never heard of Lay Jane Grey, maybe in a Rolling Stones song. Being Catholic, the women hero's were Joan of Arc and Queen Mary. Though Mary was none to kind to the Irish. Being Catholic was not enough, for her. Lady Jane looks strange. Her father, and the Howards, what a group, got the young girl and her reluctant husband killed. As far as Davis Starky goes, he is most likely right. The quality is suspect. It very well could be Jane, in the same light, but sadly unproven. Great video, I do love hearing the story of Jane. The Grey's were a very interesting family. Would love to see your take on Wallis Simpson.

[@MK_Nay]

Absolutely think it is her! I am so fascinated by her. Thank you for doing a video on her.

[@HistoryCalling]

And thank you for watching and commenting on it :-)

[@SirLicksalot]

I love your videos and your voice,can I ask where in Northern Ireland your from,I'm from Ballymena

[@HistoryCalling]

I prefer to keep the exact spot a mystery, but greetings to you in Ballymena 😀

[@edithengel2284]

Some one else among the commenters may have mentioned this, but the so-called portrait of Frances Brandon at 7:58 is now identified as Mary Neville Fiennes, Lady Dacre. It looks like an engraving of a detail of a portrait of Lady Dacre and her son, which was formerly thought to be Frances Brandon and her second husband.

[@HistoryCalling]

Yes, you're totally correct. I didn't know that at the time (I think the image I used comes from the Yale Centre for British Art and at that point they had it listed as Frances), but I do now and only use my photo of her memorial in Westminster Abbey these days. :-)

[@edithengel2284]

@@HistoryCalling It's very disconcerting to have the art historians pull the rug from under us with a new identification for a familiar painting! Not the first time poor Lady Dacre's likeness was apparently misidentified as a member of the Grey family. The Wrest Park portrait of her was earlier thought to be of Lady Jane.

[@WouldbeRenaissanceLady6926]

Personally I think that it may very well be a likeness of the poor, ill-fated Jane Grey and what a terribly sad life she had indeed. Although this painting is particularly poor in quality, I can see a likeness around her eyes to Elizabeth of York. I wonder if Lady Jane would have stayed on the throne if Mary had not existed? Afterall, Elizabeth was completely disregarded by King Edward her Step-Brother in favour of Jane because he considered Elizabeth as being "illegitimate!" The machinations of fate do work in some strange ways sometimes. Fact being very much stranger than fiction. I think that fate was thankfully on the side of Elizabeth from the very outset.

[@vickiewallace415]

I can’t find you on PATERON ! I really want to support your work!

[@rosemaryfranzese317]

Most portraits of this period don’t really look like real people. Only Hans Holbein, Henry VIll’s official court painter really put a real face on history

[@edithengel2284]

Jane was certainly used as a pawn by virtually everyone in her nearer and larger family, and equally certainly did not deserve her fate. However, she was not a gentle, sweet, and passive person. She was, in fact, an extremely ardent and doctrinaire Protestant on the order of her cousin Edward VI, so ardent, that rather than save herself by converting to Catholicism, she chose to refuse, and die. She was a young woman of extreme intellectual ability, like her cousin Elizabeth, and of an oppositional nature. Clearly these traits, which might be admired today, were bound to bring her into conflict with her parents, her husband and his family, and her society at large. One can admire the fortitude with which she bore the results of her parents' and others' ambitions, but also wonder, if her forces had beaten Mary's, whether should would have made a very good queen.

[@toddjohnson271]

Born into a disastrous game.....forced on the throne, then blamed, executed for treason by taking it.

[@patriciahayes7315]

It could be that this was a copy of Jane's wedding portrait, as it was traditional at that time for a prospective bridegroom's family to receive a portrait of their future daughter-in-law.

[@HistoryCalling]

An intriguing idea, for sure :-)

[@wldluv]

I believe it is Lady Jane Grey, but I wish I could see what it was copied from. One has to put value on the age of the portrait...it is hundreds of years old and I am so glad to see it.

[@JohnDoe-tx8lq]

'On A Different Note' Section: A New Years History Calling Q&A would be interesting, incase you don't have enough to do, creating content answering comments! Like: Are you or where you, a history student / teacher / researcher, do you work on books or ther history projects, who is your favourite Queen, who is your least favorite back-stabbing Royal advisor, what what is your favourite outfit worn in a pre-1800 painting, your best/grossest food -feast in history... 😀 that kind of thing!

[@HistoryCalling]

I'm saving that idea for when I hopefully get 100k subscribers :-) In short though, I used to work as a university lecturer and am doing this now largely because the pandemic forced a complete career change.

[@JohnDoe-tx8lq]

@@HistoryCalling Fingers crossed colleges get back to normal some time soon, letting you interact in-person again, but at least the Pandemic has given the rest of us one good thing! 😁👍

[@midnight_rose2337]

The portrait most likely is a copy of a lost one of Jane. The expensive clothing, style, and the fact that the sitter bears many of the famed Tudor features supports this.

[@prarieborn6458]

I think she resembles her grandmother, Mary Tudor, Henry VIII sister, if Mary’s portraits are accurate.Mary had red-gold hair and delicate features.The love story of Mary Tudor and Charles Brandon is told in the book “When Knighthood was in Flower” I read that splendid romance when I was 15..oh, my!!

[@HistoryCalling]

I suspect so too.

[@KO-ov6kg]

When I look at this painting, it is obvious Hans Holbein has left England.

[@beastieber5028]

Good evening to history calling

[@marilanderos977]

She looks a lot like the parents of lady Jane grey and some of the Tudors. Considering the year it was painted as well as the fact that she was the only high ranking lady named Jane, I think it is her

[@HistoryCalling]

I think so too :-)

[@Goodiesfanful]

The gown Jane’s wearing in the portrait may be the one Mary Tudor gave her. She was horrified at such a fancy gown, as she had a Puritan bent for modest black-and-white gowns, but her parents told her to wear it. If this is the gown, we have more of a fix as to when this was painted.

[@marumae]

@14:08 I mean Starkey saying it's of too poor quality for royalty (assuming he's right, which I disagree with)...painting quality doesn't mean it's not a painting of Jane for someone (other) than royalty right? I mean if Jane was considered a Protestant martyr wouldn't it be possible for some rich (not lavishly wealthy) Protestant to request a copy of an earlier/higher quality work? Also copying the works of masters is an old technique to assigned to apprentices, I wonder if this is merely a copy that survived where the original didn't? Either way this is fascinating! To be honest, I think it is Jane.

[@francescoody4993]

If you say it was Lady Jane, then I will agree. I enjoy your educational videos very much and thank you for them.

[@audreysue9118]

Thank you, I love History Calling

[@HistoryCalling]

Thank you too 😀

[@Tyler380]

Years ago, lets say unscrupulous artists were used to paint duplicate paintings to sell to someone who thought they were the original.. As an Antique Dealer I've been to Sotheby's in New York and seen how they are checked before they are put up for auction. Its quite a process. I mean they count brushstrokes and take paint samples and samples from wooden back frame. No I never sold any paintings like these but did sell a few Chippendale chairs and dressers.. Not cheap ether..

[@HistoryCalling]

Yes, I can't imagine the NPG just authenticated this on a whim. I'm sure it went through a similarly robust process.

[@tech10k14]

She also matches the 'thin with red hair' description, you've quoted in another video.

[@nathanfisher1826]

Great job

[@HistoryCalling]

Thank you 🙂