What did people think of the katana

[@Tsukimawarii]

finally someone giving us historical references instead of just "anime made it overrated but its still good"

[@AGuy-vq9qp]

One source is a bit yikes

[@AGuy-vq9qp]

One source is a bit yikes

[@craigthebrute8932]

The thing is Anime made every historical sword overrated. Most anime series, base on a historical time period, made swords in general look like overpowered weapons, including European longswords. And let's face it, this is not only Japanese media. West Fantasy is guilty for this thing too like Excalibur, even when swords in general are secondary weapons.

[@junoperberry]

​@@AGuy-vq9qp he showed quotes from multiple different people

[@LeMeowAu]

​@@AGuy-vq9qp ahh commenting twice to be more than one source, clever

[@gimbles123]

The quality of Japanese swords also changes through history. Japanese swords made during the shinto period(roughly 1600 to 1780) are known to be on average less durable than swords made during the koto period(roughly 900 to 1600) and shinshinto period ( roughly 1800 to 1876).

[@MarcusVance]

Do you have any sources that I could read up about that? Not saying that in a confrontational way, but in a wanting to learn way.

[@gimbles123]

@@MarcusVance I think my earlier reply was removed for posting links to other websites. Rather than repost the whole thing, I will just say to lookup Suishinshi Masahide and the Functionality of Nihonto.

[@MarcusVance]

Thanks!

[@eagle162]

​@@MarcusVance if I could I recommend this as well, has a few different sources itself. "January 27, 2019 Iron and Steel Technology in Japanese Arms & Armors - Part 3: Bladesmithing"

[@moonmoonow4514]

So the swords during these excerpts were the weaker ones? Interesting

[@eomin]

The grass is greener on the other side of the fence. A European who only saw untrained soldiers wield a sword with terrible edge alignment sees a Japanese Samurai with years of specialized training cut stuff and thinks that it's the blade that's amazing. It's all relative to the point of view and culture.

[@GardeniaCreations]

I think the whole "European swords destroy katana" is an overcorrection from the days when people believed the katana was the pinnacle of blade design. It makes sense that, after decades of European sword fans having to hear bs about their swords being "blunt, clumsy, bars of iron with an edge" that, when culture swung their way, it swung just as far into similar territory.

[@thisgoddamusernamestoodamnlong]

warhammer gang. no technique only B O N K

[@nobodyimportant2470]

Pretty much. Also a lot of people try disparage one type of blade by comparing it to something that was designed for a completely different purpose. Claymore VS Katana is one I often hear but that is like comparing a meat cleaver to a fillet knive.

[@tanuki01]

Aided by a heavy bend towards white supremacy in a lot of historical fanboys; the guys who think the crusades are still happening

[@S3b0rg]

swordshoe theory

[@Watcher413]

There is videos of people getting high quality historically accurate swords of both like a long sword and katana and hitting them against each other. The katana every time bends from a similar sized European sword. The katana excels at cutting softer targets but a European sword excels at durability. So shattering is bs but bending a katana so it’s no longer functional is 100% a legit thing proven again and again. Keep in mind armor at the time. Europeans have chain mail and later plate mail to go over chain mail while the Japanese have well lacquer, and various other materials that don’t compare to a knights armor. So the weapons are only as good as the armor in a sense. A sword yes isn’t the main weapon of a knight as movies show. But a sword would atleast have to be able to kill a person with armor so a knights armor outclassed a samurais armor in durability so Europeans had a focus on durable swords unlike Japan that needed a focus on cutting power. I’m not saying Europeans are better just more durable.

[@walkerx1813]

Can't we all just agree that big sharp metal stick kill things good

[@sanagplay9338]

But long pointy metal stick better

[@vinx.9099]

​@@sanagplay9338 but pointy thing on longer stick even more better.

[@sanagplay9338]

@@vinx.9099 yea thats what i said, i meant a spear but you worded it better

[@haydenTenno-]

@@sanagplay9338 but what if long pointy stick more stick?

[@sanagplay9338]

@@haydenTenno- then its a horseguy pointy stick

[@pauloazuela8488]

Fun fact someone did it with the traditional katana vs the refined metal/bendy metal to the longsword. The result both broke, the difference is how they break

[@jasperzanovich2504]

I think the Katana shattered and the longsword folded. Could not remember that correctly though.

[@irrespondible]

And that is...?

[@calebbarnhouse496]

But did they both get made by a Smith of the same skill and weirded by a swordfighters of that same skill

[@newb.justnewb.8762]

​@@jasperzanovich2504 You're prob close.

[@jordancambridge4106]

There is the problem Europe did not use bendy metal. That is a lie.

[@recjr7685]

Something medieval swordsman would say; "Swords are swords"

[@demnbrown]

Until a crossbow comes into the mix

[@360entertainment2]

That’s something I say now a days! 😂

[@danielrobinson7872]

"Polearms aren't effective against these swords!" Alexander the Great has entered the chat

[@demnbrown]

Exactly people don't realize how much more effective a polearm is than a sword you have range you have a cutting surface and a piercing surface and it's easier to train people in the offensive and defensive techniques of a polearm while also keeping better formations

[@christerjakobsen8107]

@@demnbrown Yea, it's always fun to see people completely disregarding the spear as a historical weapon. There's a reason the ancient chinese called it the king of weapons.

[@faselfasel2864]

It's nice to see some sources on this, but a diplomat and a trader aren't exactly qualified to make that assessment. They are also just making guesses here.

[@angellara7040]

One was also a merchant from the Dutch who were in a bidding war with the Spanish to get Japanese trade

[@kadinconway8401]

They said it could cut "Iron". Yes. Steel can cut Iron and even iron steel alloys. But tempered steel vs tempered steel is very different.

[@DSan-kl2yc]

The second quote says shatter steel. Second quote seems to agree. It didn't mention material. But whatever was most common at the time. These are missionaries. Maybe they're wrong. Or the average was just that bad at the time.

[@kadinconway8401]

@@DSan-kl2yc It mentions the Japanese steel was tempered while there were a few places in Europe that had this proclivity. And no, he said it cuts through iron.

[@kadinconway8401]

Look up Woot steel. You want to compare a Japanese nobles metal vs a European soldier. Not a fellow noble, which tended to carry Damascus made from Woot. Which is the absolute strongest of the time. Thank you.

[@jonajo9757]

​@@kadinconway8401About wootz steel....

[@mr.pavone9719]

It's always important to overstate the capabilities of your enemy so you can get that fat R&D contract from the government.

[@wavygeckoz960]

“Yo, those swords are cool af” -some medival guy probably.

[@gregkerna7410]

1600s médiéval ?

[@ussliberty109]

"See those guards from Japan, they have curved swords. Curved. Swords." - some guy with a knee injury.

[@realrealwarpet]

If you can make something that can even compete, despite having less or lower quality material, you’ve done something right

[@piranhaplantX]

I think the main thing from people who just understand swords is that we're tired of how overrated they were, and how mystical pop culture made them seem.

[@FUBARGunpla]

Most blume steel accross the planet at that time was pretty good, this is why everyone loved viking steel to

[@elmojo9591]

What is important to understand when talking about Katanas and other japanse swords is that they where mostly used as secondary weapons. The primary weapon of a samurai was actually bows and later firearms.

[@lukasperuzovic1429]

Bows, spears, fire arms didn't came till very late. Swords are like third and not secondary weapons. Most Samurai fought on horse back.

[@LSgaming201]

Generally speaking, when I hear about one blade slicing clean through another, I give it little credence. Metal is still metal, and slicing through iron even with very high-quality steel would be a super human feat. Swords are sharp, metal is hard, and humans gonna human.

[@MarcusVance]

In a way, yes. Cutting through steel is iffy. However, steel can be made to be hard and brittle. When steel that isn't hard and brittle hits that, the brittle steel can break. Interestingly, one of the studies I listed covers how many European swords had a high phosphorus content... and phosphorus makes steel more brittle. So there is some credence to this.

[@LSgaming201]

@Marcus Vance I didn't know about the phosphorus thing with European swords. Interesting.

[@vinx.9099]

In both cases it's a shared rod of iron or steel or a mix of the two. That either would (consistently) break the other sound plain silly to me.

[@thecountryog]

There was a German documentary about katanas and German long swords where they showed that a katana hitting a sword bends terribly while the longsword just gets a nick and can break the other sword

[@smrutismarak9503]

"German Documentary"

[@thecountryog]

@@smrutismarak9503 the katana was from a legit blacksmith who makes them in the traditional way. Same with the longsword

[@eagle162]

That is one of the worst documentaries ever honestly and no way is that longsword "traditional".

[@fransthefox9682]

​@@thecountryog Okay. In which traditional way? Koto way, Shinto way, or Shinshinto way? They are all different. And pretty much every modern smith makes Katana in Shinto or Shinshinto way, which are inferior to Koto.

[@thecountryog]

@@fransthefox9682 Shinto I guess, and the internet tells me that koto swords are swords made between 930-1595 A.D.

[@flibberdip]

Overcorrection is a real issue with much of the internet zeitgeist.

[@TheCompleteMental]

You should also note that these are not bladesmiths or swordsmen talking. They are missionaries and traders.

[@atcera8714]

They respected the craftsmanship and the cutting edge of the katana. A katana would probably shatter or break another katana, that's why it was an emergency weapon rather than a main weapon in wars

[@HasvenWorld]

I think a lot of it is that the Katana was so popular and literally everywhere that it went back around to a lot of people not liking it.

[@Daniel_Roach]

Sure a well made blade is generally going to fare better than poorly made ones, but they're all so different and purpose built that one is never really better than the other

[@Aetrion]

I think the thing is that Japanese swords were made for the nobility for a lot of their history. Practically every single one of them that any outsider would have encountered was of high quality. Europeans and the Chinese produced a huge amount of much lower quality weapons that were used by regular people and common soldiers. They weren't incapable of producing high quality weapons, their high quality weapons were just a much smaller percentage of what they made overall.

[@icyphoenix2401]

If I remember this right, the iron in japan isn't generally as good as the iron found in certain European and Asian mines so they had to put a lot more work into good steel.

[@eagle162]

They didn't.

[@williamjenkins4913]

That is true pre 1600. These quotes come from after that so the iron quality would have comparable.

[@icyphoenix2401]

@@williamjenkins4913 ah alr

[@hugom2418]

That’s interesting! I’ll trust sources who were there first hand to witness historical blades and during a time when swords were used in battle more than most people on the internet. Thanks Marcus!

[@scorchercast8366]

First hand accounts aren’t always that reliable. There tons of myths about certain weapons and vehicles in ww2 being shit or unreliable when in reality the people giving the accounts just got the duds and whatever there shit talking was on the whole good if not decent. Plus people have agendas so stuff gets warped. Like every bad choice the riche made being Hitlers fault once the trials came around and they were recruiting for operation paper clip.

[@hugom2418]

@@scorchercast8366 you make a good point, all accounts should be taking with a grain a salt. I believe the European accounts in this situation were of merchants/missionary whom probably never used a sword in combat. Though in my defense I think all kind of accounts can be unreliable unless reviewed thoroughly or from a large sample size, but even then there’s things to consider

[@Sirceaser999]

I would not. A missionary and a trader? Yeah no.

[@hugom2418]

@@Sirceaser999 merchant definitely has to know his weapons well in order to sell them. He’s gotta be able to tell what’s of good quality or not. Missionary MAYBE might know his stuff since they sometimes associates with military. Though nonetheless they’re more likely better than most people nowadays on opinions on these things.

[@angellara7040]

​@@hugom2418 he needs a product to sell. Remember that everyone wanted trade with Japan while screwing the next guy over

[@DanteGrey]

It's interesting to see the disciplines all around the world and exactly what they coveted. Bike everywhere we see art and things like that but it's always a different accent of the same story when you look at it. but when we started civilizations I think that kind of skewed everything because places like Japan had a whole lot more time and isolation it's really perfect the style of sword and culture that ultimately ended up being their downfall. That story has played out time and time again outside of that isolated island but it's just an interesting thought I had

[@RequiemMasses]

See Katana is universally cool

[@gregkerna7410]

It's not

[@jjwang7597]

Yoooo he got da foam nerf sword in the background

[@Jester4460]

I think one of the main problems people say the Katana has is that it curved But I wouldn’t know I don’t do swords

[@Nerazmus]

A curve makes a sword better at cutting and worse at stabbing. It's not a problem, it's a trade-off.

[@fransthefox9682]

​@@Nerazmus The slight curve of a Katana only makes it better a little bit. But it does make edge alignment easier.

[@outsideiskrrtinsideihurt699]

It’s also worthy to note just how many places across East and Southeast Asia adopted the katana design after encountering it in combat. It’s as if people are just making up fanfiction and aren’t actually looking at sources 🤔

[@pouncepounce7417]

we like to forget that only the best of the swords that where in use survived.

[@titanium_viper5049]

Remember not every soldier or general is smart. So take thier statements with a grain of salt. Such as, "made of such refined steel thaf they cut through iron with ease." Yeah, that is very vague on what iron, armour or weapon? And plus that just sounds far fetched. Says with ease means it can cut through it with 1 or 2 strikes. Also, if you have a spear and you 'easily' die to a guy with a sword. Then that's a skill issue.

[@teknogeek1378]

Europeans who went to Asia also said that their were cities made of gold in china so let's not act like this means anything.

[@rodionpohodnia3905]

European sword lover: katana is so inferior to european swords! Katana lover: nooo! It was folded a thousand times! It's supperior! Me: stick with a pointy metal thing goes *stab*

[@gangrenousgandalf2102]

Let's add a choppy metal thing to the pointy metal thing

[@larsmurdochkalsta8808]

I think a lot of people hear about the quality of crucible steel. Don't actually know what that means or when it happened. Then they buy a spring steel blade or at least a 1060 or better blade with modern metallurgy and assume this is exactly what it was like. Not realizing that It's actually a much harder, stronger and more durable steel then crucible because of its greater purity. And that also the steal their sword is made from is much more metallurgically similar to steel for katanas. To my understanding, what katanas were made out of is pretty analogous to a 1070-1080 much of the time

[@rickyspanish6596]

Like the European style sword and the Japanese style sword are two different weapons with two different purposes. One is a multi-purpose weapon meant to be well rounded, while the other is hyper specialized for maximizing cutting potential. It’s like comparing a knife to a fork….

[@jerryborjon]

A fork is more like a trident. It’s not very multipurpose at all. It’s more like comparing a steak knife to a Swiss army knife

[@rickyspanish6596]

@@jerryborjon fair enough, I was thinking about how sometimes people use the edge of the fork to cut softer food.

[@jonajo9757]

​@@jerryborjonShould be less than that. It's more like a knife, but there's a random bottle opener on the bottom that makes you think that it'd be better to use a bottle opener than a knife that can open bottles.

[@michaelgladitsch1519]

And yet, the Europeans didn't immediately or gradually replace their swords and swordsmanship with Japanese swords and swordsmanship, soooo. . .

[@glitchxero4687]

The iron quality of Japan was poor, but they worked around it by adding carbon and folding the hot billet again and again to line up the crystal lattice of the steel, making it stronger. So it's not that Japanese steel was brittle, it just took more work to get it to weapon quality.

[@MarcusVance]

Japan had multiple iron sources.

[@alexrhinehart9604]

tbf, the effectiveness of the katana would be due to the samurais skill with said sword, same with any weapon.

[@TheSpeep]

Yeah pretty much, especially if youre talking about beating spearmen with a sword. Thats a big range advantage you wont just overcome somehow with better steel.

[@calebbarnhouse496]

It was also a Chinese general, and Chinese soldiers historically have been terrible he could have been having a jab at his men's training rather then praising a sword, particularly as ordering those swords wouldn't magically improve there primary weapon

[@leonardomarquesbellini]

Also important to note the time Europeans had regular contact with the Japanese would be after barely trained fighters and munitions-grade arms and armor had become the mainstay of European navies, and the knightly or men-at-arms conquistadors and aventureiros were a relic of the past even by the mid 16ty century.

[@outsideiskrrtinsideihurt699]

The damage control here is crazy

[@tomatopotato1136]

I’m pretty sure the I’m pretty sure the majority of people nowadays think the katana would be able to cut through modern steel. The same people also think the katana was the main weapon that the samurai always used during every period of time and that samurais was the personification of perfection.

[@eagle162]

No, if anything is exact opposite when's the last time you heard anybody talk about katanas like that ,that is extremely rare more often you find people bashing katanas even on videos where Katara is not mention.

[@tomatopotato1136]

@@eagle162 90% of the people I ask say katana is the best sword. If I search online I see article after article saying how the katana was so superior in the steel and it would be able to slice through plate armour.

[@eagle162]

​@@tomatopotato1136 no,no they don't,heck I came across a video talkin about Saxon sword makes no mention of Japanese blades whatsoever and you find some people bashing katanas, are you looking up articles from 10 years ago? Even with some articles it's the same story.

[@tomatopotato1136]

@@eagle162 I am just saying that when I ask people, irl or online, about 90% of them say the katana is the best sword. And when I googled “beat sword ever” way too many articles said the katana was godly.

[@braamvantonder5480]

So combatants had a tendency of exaggerating the prowess of their enemies. "War. War never changes."

[@FIVEBASKET]

Interesting topic

[@Technoanima]

You’re right! I forgot we’re talking Japanese blades vs. 16th century European arms.

[@borttorbbq2556]

This is also 16th century Japan,

[@borttorbbq2556]

@@RedDeadMarston1 16th century Japanese steel was yes

[@ANDELE3025]

@Enthusiastic Aizawa No it wasn't. We know from actual composition analysis and structural scans. Its not outright "snaps right away", but on average japan had worse steel blades than european steel blades all the way back from the 10th century on (and in theory still does, but thats mostly a technicality as european corporate labs are the ones used even by US governments for stuff like metallurgical engineering and lab testing alloys). You can mean blades overall on statistical average simply due to the very high amount of regular iron, mixed alloy pattern or outright a high zinc and lead blades as were common all over the spanish coastline. But then we can also look at the copper and lead effectively "best for decorate thread cutting" defensive knives that got put of of commission during the start of the sengoku due to being worthless and more often poisoning its owner that took care off it than harming any enemy.

[@fransthefox9682]

​@@ANDELE3025 Don't bother. Weebs are convinced that the worst Japanese blade is better than the best European blade.

[@SpookyBC09]

They probably liked them and thought highly of them because goddamn they looked cool as hell

[@ibelieveingaming3562]

Hardened, industrial strength steel vs the bronze age would be super interesting

[@fransthefox9682]

Bronze bends much easier and does not hold a sharp edge for long compared to hardened steel. You can only make shortswords out of bronze, because anything longer would bend too easily. The only upsides is that they don't rust, and can be bent back by hand.

[@ibelieveingaming3562]

@@fransthefox9682 I know. Industrial strength steel would be like Etherium to those people!

[@dimasakbar7668]

Most likely novelty factor comes into play in the missionary and trader assessment, rather than hyperbole.

[@timothyernst1912]

Katanas we’re well crafted blade and probably could kill standard soldiers fairly easily but I still can’t get behind the idea that it could cut stab through plate and slash through chain mail. I’m no bladesmith but I’ve heard that blades rarely go through enough stress to break so I’m not worried about that but at the height of the European Middle Ages, armor and swords got so good that thier utility we’re unparalleled. The creases in plate Armor made piercing very difficult and the chain mail underneath couldn’t be cut. Fighting a knight would put a samurai at a big disadvantage.

[@eagle162]

Nobody said anything about armor and Samurai had armor that can protect just as well.

[@spastictreefrog]

I think it's also necessary to note what types of swords are the most common for the Europeans to use during the 1600s. If it's rapiers that happen to be the main sword, it wouldn't surprise me that a Katana( being thicker for cutting resons), could break a thin stabbing type blade

[@tigerbesteverything]

they talk about iron, and not steel, that is weird. One thing is sure, the quality of their weapon had to be dubious to proclaim that a katana could shatter their swords. Note that the statement are made from a trader and an ecclesiastic, not a professional swordman.

[@TacComControl]

The thing with steel is that steel homogenization SUCKED back then. This is a huge reason why Japanese blades were forged with folding, because the steel was crucible fired(much like european steel), which led to the quite accidental discovery OF steel by means of heating iron below its melting point with a bunch of combustible crap around it adding carbon to the mix. Which meant that the mix of steel was inconsistent throughout, so in Japan, they got around this by folding the CRAP out of it. Like a lot. Which meant a sword took absolute yonks to make it well. Also the Chinese referring to a Katana as a soldier's weapon tells us that's early period, as the sword wielders on the battlefield were basically grunts, whereas the higher ups would be on horseback, and depending on the era, would be carrying a Naginata, which was basically a dense knife on the end of a really, really big stick. Because nothing cuts quite an imposing figure like a giant man in big armor with a poleaxe on a horse. Amusingly, in history, after the Meiji revisionism of history(blame the dutch, they basically taught the Meiji emperor how to basically ignore reality and history in favor of creating a heroic retelling of history in order to manipulate the people), the image of the Samurai with a Katana was more thoroughly ingrained(which is funny, because samurai were banned from carrying swords at around that time, largely because the samurai class were power-hungry thugs and the Meiji government had just stripped them of all of their power, worth, and value), as was the heroism of the Samurai class(which, again, funny), while the Naginata, once the fearsome death-on-a-stick of giant beast-men of battle, was consigned to be a "Woman's weapon of the household". Historical revisionism wasn't nice to anyone.

[@d.esanchez3351]

I feel bad for people who just want to pick a side but objectivity isn't the most exciting one

[@autisticwitch7581]

Japanese steel has a lot of impurities in it, and for a long time, folding was the only way they could really get it out, and that wasn't as effective as one would like. This forced them to have better designs for their swords.

[@jerryborjon]

It’s hard to say “better” in this situation. It’s more accurate to say “specialized.” They’re better at cutting, but good luck against any armor or if you need to block a hit

[@DwarfEater2727]

There is no such as too much anime. But in all seriusnes thats cool

[@zeliardforty-two4692]

Any argument like this would be someone trying to make their favourite style more superior then another. Personally I think it all came down to how well made and maintained a blade is, Combined with skill and experience.

[@Outlawzero]

Wasn't it the folding technique during forging that made them so durable.

[@68able2]

im pretty sure they were talking about the strength difference between casted swords and japanese multi peice folded swords maybe people thought the extra parts made it weaker when in reality blade angle matters more than most of that and katanas have a sort of wide angle SOMETIMES and european swords are generally very thin and light as to be agile. So theres multiple tradeoffs it doesn’t have to be hear say you can look at their actual construction

[@jmsgridiron5628]

the problem isn't the steel. The whole thing is held together by a single bamboo reed. The whole "fling the blood off the blade" move called chiburi, is actually meant to check and make sure said reed hasn't been broken. I assume they broke often too since samurai carried a whole box with those little reeds in them for maintenance. They have one key advantage over european swords and that's that the curved blade gives natural edge alignment. I'd still take a European sword over a katana any day of the week because I see katanas more as a work of art not designed for prolonged combat. I'm no sword expert though. In all reality, I'd pick a firearm over any melee weapon simply because I have shot plenty of guns but I ain't swung around many swords.

[@hugom2418]

Bit late to this but, it’s likely chiburi was never preformed or practice by actual samurais in wars, since it can only be traced back to the edo period. The mekugi (wooden pin/bamboo pin) was very tightly secured and flexible thus making it able to absorb force a lot, so they wouldn’t break before something else in the sword does. Problem is that it’s organic material and blood, sweat, heat, compression, humidity, etc can cause it to deform overtime. This is why they brought many extra, also because better safe than sorry.

[@draketurtle4169]

Depends on the sword, it would be a funny skit to see two people fighting but every sword they use just breaks so they give up.

[@DragonstarFighter]

robin hood men in tights bridge scene but with swords?

[@veisslie_4880]

in an era where swords are no longer relevant in warfighting, why can't we just enjoy both western and eastern swords

[@niohnn7402]

I really would like to see how a katana would perform against a claymore

[@artsy_dragon_creations]

I think that comes down to Japanese culture and their work ethic. Most Japanese craftsman during that time had to make a name for themselves purely based on their skill alone to impress others and attract customers. They didn’t have advertising and collaborations the same way we do now. So to gain business, you really had to know what you were doing, and there were also many insanely strict tests for sword back then as well. I’ve heard of one test where a smith would take 5 prisoners sentenced to death, and his blade had to cut through each body from shoulder to hip in one strike with no damage, otherwise it was considered a failure. Not entirely sure how historically accurate that tale is, but I can believe it

[@wachyfanning]

I saw something which said it was about their literacy rate (80%, which was extremely high for the time) While Europeans passed information down from generation, the Japanese regularly wrote things down, and knowledge was spread far further than it would otherwise. Thus the art of smithing was far superior in Japan.

[@matthaeusperry4319]

Yall are both wrong, by alot. First off, most swords, even modernly made ones, can only cut someone deep enough until the blade itself gets stuck, we cannot oroduce nearly enough mobiloty and strength to cut someone in half shoulder to hip, amd secondly alot of people in medieval Europe did learn to read, it just was uncommon for commoners to read because it just wasnt typically viewed as important. And secondly, literacy has little to do with being able to smith properly or netter, cuz more often then not, you were taught by your father or master, And they will teach you what they know. Thirdly, recording something on paper is so it isnt forgotten a hundred years later, not a generation or two later.

[@wachyfanning]

@@matthaeusperry4319 A lot of words with very little thought behind them. European reading rates were not 80%, and learning from one master cannot compare to the wealth of knowledge you'd get from writings in addition to your master. Like, there were literally manuals in Europe describing sword fighting techniques - there were probably manuals for everything else, too. So when it take something already done among the reading population, and make that 80% of the population, it's bound to have an impact. Moreover, it's not my idea. I got it from another video

[@hithere4719]

Whether or not mass-literacy would improve the swords themselves, I would easily believe that mass-literacy lends to grandiose advertising. Dewey did not, in fact, defeat Truman. Maybe that dude’s swords didn’t slice through five prisoners with no wear. There are also Japanese texts about repelling invasions with farts. Should I believe that had Dewey won that election, that the Enola Gay would have been blown away by farts?

[@lilstubbs9553]

That sounds like a badass way to test a sword! 😲👍🏻

[@cybitner6159]

The old technique of harvesting iron from dirt and mud and forming that into a high carbon steel paired with their hardening techniques stand up to some of the best steels today.... the problem is that it's slow and very difficult to do requiring lots of training and experience.

[@thed_ani]

It’s mainly because japan had really good iron refinement and understanding of steel (folding steel to homogeneous hard and soft steel) whereas other parts of the world just found iron and forged it into a steel without refining it as well

[@demnbrown]

That is the polar opposite of all well-known facts Japanese iron was very piss poor quality hence the reason why they had to fold it to spread out the impurities across the blade instead of it being focused at once point where it could shatter

[@eagle162]

​@@demnbrown it wasn't that is a myth, it is also not why folding was done and folding was done everywhere until the Industrial Revolution. "November 04, 2019 Japanese Swords "Mythbusting" - Part 1" "Iron and Steel Technology in Japanese Arms & Armors - Part 3: Bladesmithing"

[@jonajo9757]

​@@demnbrownif you're wondering, Japan used "mochi tetsu", a high purity magnetite ore that's similar to swedish sources. If that doesn't say anything about quality, then I don't know what soes

[@Dautar748]

​@@eagle162 cope

[@grahamlopez3742]

historically people were really afraid of the pointy end of the enemies sword, which is exactly why we moved on to guns... now we're afraid of the enemies bullets

[@hannahlistento100EAT]

A surgeon's scalpel, modern cutting technology, is curved, has an edge closer to a katana, than a straight edge Curves are inherently good for cutting, European sword designs at least were inferior in cutting potential

[@greentea1941]

But at least, the straight blade is thrust better. So I think it's fair point. One for cut. One for thrust.

[@hannahlistento100EAT]

@@greentea1941 this is false, suturing needles are curved, injection needles are round sharp tips not completely angular, sharpness misconceptions exhaust me, the curve of a katana does not make it worse at thrusting than a straight sword, it's actually the opposite

[@greentea1941]

@@hannahlistento100EAT hmm. i don't know about that. what I said is refer from Marcus vance previous video. when he's test both of sword with Kevlar vest. katana seems cut deeper while longsword seems thrust deeper. so... I'm sorry about that.

[@hannahlistento100EAT]

@@greentea1941 Sigh

[@ANDELE3025]

Note on the spanish and dutch quotes (even tho the spanish one has a mistranslation): ITS COMPARING (low to mid carbon) STEEL TO REGULAR IRON. Id love to see some comments from the bavarian and austrian travelers of the 4th dutch tour if any can be found (i sure as hell cant dig any up). As the alps had some of the oldest furnaces that make near modern steel. And more notably what time period and region each are (e.g. i think its from Sword and Crucuble, but could be another book which has a "local claim" that in the Kumamoto region the patterns sought for the core of katanas during forging changed after a imported arming sword not only chipped the edge but ouright got to the center of a batch of katanas with only mild dulling from a edge to edge test parries).

[@eagle162]

Those two quotes don't seem to imply that,there's no quote like that exist in Japan mentioning any sort of change for that reason, it also doesn't make any sense when the Arming sword would have been outdated and there's was no one way to make a katana at that time. Some info on Japanese swords. "November 04, 2019 Japanese Swords "Mythbusting" - Part 1" "Iron and Steel Technology in Japanese Arms & Armors - Part 3: Bladesmithing"

[@taylordavison6849]

People saying one is better than the other are full of shit. Metallurgy has improved vastly, due to recorded best practices. Steel before mass production was pretty experimental. I've even seen crucible steel recipes that called for incorporating silver.

[@jo3y960]

What baffles me is that there are varying types of steel you can make a katana with. So when we say a statement like this sword beats another, are we comparing them historically, or are.we comparing their functionality? Using steel from a historical context or I'm general? Because they functionally serve the same purpose, with the spear being the ultimate battlefield weapon.

[@jordancambridge4106]

Here the problem. The Katana was made of iron not steel. Japan did not have access to steel until around 1910s and the Katana was discontinued in use by the Japanese military, police, and security and fully replaced with the Scottish Cutlas by the mid to late 1860s after Japan first met someone with a Scottish Cutlas in the early 1860s. Japan's military and government instantly switched their entire forces to using the cutlas because it was so far beyond better as a weapon in every way possible including the fact that to use a Katana properly it takes 20 to 40 years while to use a Cutlas takes only 2 weeks of extreme light training and cuts better and is able to be used in more than 1 directional swing and does not require being placed back in the sheath before being pulled out again to make a second cut. The cutlas can swing in all directions and does not shatter like glass and does not break very easily at all. Sure the swing of a Katana can be pretty fast but its flashy and not functional while a Cutlas is flashy and functional and can be used while riding a horse or moving at all because in reality a katana required the body to be completely still or the swing will fail to cut while a cutlas you can swing that shit and cut while running let alone standing still. The Katana is a swift cut but its functionality is garbage and nearly impossible to do anything if the person a guy who the katana is facing against has shoulder pads of any kind. The Katana shatters when hit against anything hard and if anything is in its path the swing will fail to cut. Also a Katana can not do anything but perform 1 directional cut. Its a really shitty weapon in every aspect and the only reason it was used at all is because Japan did not know of any other weapon and the very moment they saw a different weapon they switched their entire forces to using that different weapon because it was better in every way by leaps and fucking bounds. Its like the difference between using catapult or an A10 Warthog. Both fire hard objects from a distance but the A10 Warthog is far superior.

[@jo3y960]

@@jordancambridge4106 unfortunately, Japan did not remove the complete usage of Katana from militaristic use. Post the Meiji restoration, where the katana was outlawed due to its length in 1868, the Japanese military would primarily focus on creating a sidearm weapon akin to the katana. The purpose was a ceremonial blade that could be used as a weapon, designated the Gunto, which were akin to not only cutlasses but sabers as well, some of them bearing the same design of a katana, but smaller. During the Sino Japanese war, as we see in historical paintings. In later wars, the Gunto would still be used, and during WW2 NCOs would wield Katana-like Gunto and be their sidearm. Ceremonial, of course, but still in use either way. Now, again. My original point was how the katana was less of a battlefield weapon and much more of a sidearm in military contexts while the longsword was purposely used for battle and maybe judicial disputes. Its absolutely wrong that the katana could only used standing in one place, and while I won't deny the functionality of the cutlass, I still ask as to how are we comparing katana or longsword. By the steel or lack thereof that was used historically? In a modern context with both being able to be made with better material? Functionality, practicality? I don't doubt the katana has been made popular due to the diffusion of Japanese media in the states, but even western made films such as Kill Bill romanticize it, lightsabers we're based on it, and its presence has been felt in pop culture for years.

[@eagle162]

​@@jordancambridge4106 what are you smoking to believe any of that.

[@eagle162]

@@jo3y960 don't believe whatever this guy is saying and Kyū guntō would only take influence from a French saber nothing to do with a Cutlass. The video is not comparing Katana or longsword but rather tackling the myth that Japanese steel was terrible and would shattered against anyting, sidearm does not have the same meaning as it does now and in some contacts a sword would have been the preferred weapon, katanas goes back much further than modern media.

[@jo3y960]

@@eagle162 thank you. But I was merely disproving the angle he was coming from. But I understand the issue of the iron sand. when mentioning the sidearm bit, I was merely talking about what the katana was in a historical context, and how it was replaced due to the Meiji Restoration. The swords used after drew inspiration from sabers and katana alike but were shorter and used for ceremonial use. I was just getting annoyed originally of the constant LS vs Katana debate since both swords seem to be flamed and misinformation runs rampant, and wanted to know how we were approaching this discussion.

[@KBzaz]

Japanese steel was fucking garbage, however Japanese swordsmiths were literally masters of there craft.

[@kongeethegod]

I mean they took some of the most doo doo iron and turned it into pretty refined steel

[@lukeamparo6586]

What were Japan’s thoughts on European blades back then?

[@greentea1941]

as I know. the Japanese isn't interested in longsword. since they're love their sword so much. as you can see in their media. everyone carried the katana. they started to interested in longsword when isekai anime go boom. you can see there's a lot of character and some protagonist equipped with longsword.

[@pauloazuela8488]

​​​@@greentea1941 That's very anecdotal. Back when Isekai isn't even booming there's already Medieval European stuff. Look at the old games and anime. Castlevania, Legend of Zelda, Berserk. Most of their old mecha shows uses a freaking longsword. Safe to say after the Westernization of Japan they started to appreciate Western culture for goodness sake their school are akin to British Sailor uniforms too

[@pauloazuela8488]

If you mean by medieval Japan. The Samurais hated that the Shogun began to pander to the US since the Shogun knew full well they can't fight with their refined guns and cannons(west influence seeping thorough that led to the Meiji restoration). Most of Japan in the edo period are isolationist so they never had much opinion on Foreigners to begin with much more if they see one. After ww2 or showa era, you can see the influence of the west started to show more with some of the games and shows like anime where fantasy genre was showing and mecha shows with their robots wielding a fantasy type longsword.

[@fransthefox9682]

​@@greentea1941 Eh, the Japanese from warring states would take the European swords. Post Edo period Japanese however are too proud of their own work, even if it has gotten worse after the wars ended.

[@jonajo9757]

​@@fransthefox9682European swords never really took off in Japan, but European armor did, except theu were mostly made domestically and altered to fit Japanese tastes than western.

[@bigpicture1287]

There's lots of she said he said account's throughout history on both sides but when experiments were conducted following older forging styles they found that although the high carbon content does make the metal HARDER. That does NOT mean the weapons were STRONGER. In fact they were brittle do to this and it's what contributed to the katanas fame because their unique forging style of folding steel helped purify the metal, although pop culture would have you believe they folded the metal "1000 times". This is once again a major exaggeration where the usual number folds was more like 30. Although this could take weeks or even months to make a single sword depending on how much time you spend each day on it. And this resulted in STRONGER steel, to an extent. This is were everyone disagrees because people forget that although katanas would in fact break other local weapons (typically far east Asia) they did NOT stand up nearly as well against weapons of the far west or middle east. Although they are strong, katanas are just more likely to break against weapons from the west. Hell just look at modern users for reference, you don't see them using katanas to wail on armoured opponents in combat tournament's. They use them to cut mat's because they do in fact hold an edge very well do to how hard they are, but again hardness does not equal strength.

[@1003JustinLaw]

Steel and iron quality for blades and weapons really didn't vary that much throughout the world before the invention of the blast furnace, power hammer, and that sort of industrialized things. You want a strong blade, you need the proper technique, materials, and a long time of repeated heating, folding, and pounding. In Japan that became an art, a smith will spend years, if not decades, hammering out a single blade because there really isn't that many samurai out there who can afford a very good sword, and swords, as well as armor, gets passed down through the generations so there isn't a big need for replacements either. In China and Europe, the focus was more on quantity over quality, so smiths would pound out a blade over a few days or, at most, a few months and get men armed to go kill each other.

[@nuyabuisness7526]

The issue being asking question "what sword made from what materials using what techniques?" There is a major difference in metal quality before and after they developed the technology to fully melt and create uniform carbon steel.

[@zepicpicpic]

You look like a retired science teacher

[@Dautar748]

he was fired

[@the_canadian_goose6033]

Let’s just say that both swords were good and bad and leave it at that

[@Xifihas]

It’s the same argument as M16 vs AK47. You know every fault of what you are using but only see the enemy weapons at their best, so of course their stuff seems better.

[@queen_simp3273]

I always hated the intellectual dishonesty that the European sword crowd brought in sometimes. People talked about Katanas like they were made of pig iron...because they literally say that they were made out of pig iron(which is verifiably false). I’m not some Japanese nationalist weaboo or whatever but it just really bugged me that people who would accuse others of being Uber simps when they do the same with European swords. I’m fine with a nice little debate cause it’s interesting seeing the differences between said weapons due to the original purpose, culture and tradition they originated from, but the level of hyperbole, dishonesty, and arrogance just makes me never want to see a sword again sometimes.

[@theduke7539]

end of the day, if the weapons were bad, then they wouldnt have been used for hundreds of years. Also, I still hate that in modern media that the samurai are katana primary fighters when they were always spear and bow fighters first with Katana and tanto as back up and utility blades.

[@kevinjamesmurphy4037]

Crazy idea. If you hit a sword with another sword. They're both gonna fucking break.

[@fransthefox9682]

If they literally shatter into pieces, none of them are proper swords.

[@Dautar748]

You know nothing normie

[@scottallen4569]

Tbh. Comparing Swords of yesteryear is like comparing modern day supercars. I mean, yea, they are good, and have their ups and downs, but they are *not* gonna out-class a SUV or Pickup truck in terms of effectiveness except for speed, they same way swords can't really contest Spears and like, *any* ranged weapon.

[@Utuberj0sh]

Are there any modern designs that would cut through both European and Japanese swords?

[@yeahey5947]

Damn got further in the video and it’s crazy to think that a European would see one and just be like “yea that’ll cut a long sword in half”

[@alonelychocolatebar1954]

To be fair, even Japanese chef knives are incredibly sharp. Most Michelin Star restaurants have nothing but Japanese cutlery and cookware, even basic frying pans and baking sheets. Japanese craftsmanship is just good. Does that mean the katana is the greatest sword ever made? Maybe not, but to say it isn't up there with some good ass weapons would be a mistake.

[@MultiSpeedMetal]

Steel of any quality can be sharpened. Steel quality decides edge retention, hardness, and flexibility. Japanese katanas have less flexibility and are more prone to shattering. They're incredibly well made but have drawbacks due to manufacturing and resource limitations. They certainly get the job done for their context in Japan.

[@jonajo9757]

​. Shattering only applies to artisinal swords made with different materials and heat treatment that sacrifice integrity for beauty. These swords shattered more often than conventional katana used in warfare.

[@antagonisticgamercrew3459]

During the periods which saw the most conflicts, you can see a distinct change in how the iron sand they had available to them was processed. While I personally do not think either sword to be the pinnacle of metal crafting due to the fact that each style of blade has specific functions, and each have different ways of swinging said blades. I do believe that the scarcity of iron ore and the necessity of the use of iron sand was what prompted such rigorous methods which many blades from Japan (tatara smelting was around 7th or 8th century Japan I think} were crafted. Also I would wager the smiths skill was also a big part in what determined either blades worth.

[@NoticemeSinPi]

To be fair, the average quality of all swords from all cultures were likely worse than we think of them being. It's the same with armor. Most examples we have are subject to heavy survivorship bias as most pieces that failed would have been scavenged, melted down, and forged into a new pieces.

[@MarcusVance]

Yup.

[@alexandermckhaos8412]

Respecting the craftsmanship of katanas is a no brainer, crucible steel was arguably as good if not better, but with less than half the work. My main issue is when people say traditional Japanese blades are better than modern steel. Modern steel kicks the crap out of any historical steel. Give me 5160 or 1095 over anything in history.

[@798Muchoman]

I wonder if some difference comes from which quality of blade was being seen. Europe seemed to mass produce mediocre quality iron and steel for mass produced weapons, which would be front of mind for these visitors. Japan would likely show its best to outside dignitaries. That said, I absolutely believe European iron and steel pre industry was pretty terrible, and likely much worse overall than Japanese steel.

[@warrmalaski8570]

The hype surrounding the katana started simply because it was a better design. Then the Chinese style cast swards it replaced. A lot like how a lever-action rifle was far superior to the muzzleloader it replaced.

[@TheCompleteMental]

Spring steel is better on paper, but remember both people used techniques to get the best quality out of what they were working with

[@Jake-rv8td]

In reality, there were good sword makers and not so good makers; or a certain sword maker would make either more expensive or more affordable swords, depending on his clientele. This is true for either European or Japanese. However, a Japanese sword was more likely to be one of higher quality. If you compare a high-quality European sword to a high-quality Japanese sword, they are very comparable to each other.

[@krossrenterainment1319]

No no I think you misunderstand I’ve never held or used a katana for any form of historical blade for that matter but I watched I documentary once and also I follow the r/swords subreddit so I don’t need things like evidence to back up a completely outlandish claim and I’m going to ignore everything that refutes my claim

[@Cast-Carnival]

The katana was an amazing piece of history, even at that time it caught the eye of travelers. but unlike *weebs* *cough* *cough* outsiders didn't worship a (terrible) art style while trying to look like a Japanese historian.

[@padalan2504]

You know, it might be true that originally the katana could seriously damage other steel blades, because its blade is forged like an axe not a sword. It holds a hard steel edge in a softer, tougher mild steel spine, just like an axe.

[@fransthefox9682]

But because of their hardness, their edge tends to shatter easier. Hitting another sword with a Katana can potentially break off a piece of the edge It happened.

[@padalan2504]

@@fransthefox9682 Yes. An important thing to understand about weapons is that they are tools. And just like tools they break, crack, shatter, dull and rust. The chipping of a blade would happen regardless due to the stresses of combat, as even later european imported mono steel would be prone to all those things in some way. And indeed two european blades clashing would also sustain damage. What is important to acknowledge is that for its time the katana managed to outperform its contemporaries, despite the difficulties of producing it. However the same difficulty it managed to overcome has later on left it outdated and it persisted thanks to tradition and availability. Its construction was revised again during the WW2, but it has been left more or less in the same line as its traditional form.

[@elliott0234]

as someone who has taken a few years on material science I understand how weak the japanese swords are, if your edge is designed to cut paper accidently then that edge will shatter without a doubt, a sword from the west, of that is designed to crush more than cut because we just force our way through skin and bone will shatter japanese iron, the metal used in my blade may degrade at the same rate but the sword has been designed with degrading in mind, the japanese did not.

[@tn1881]

Highly rated high-end Japanese knives are made of the same traditional steel as the katana. kzbin.info/www/bejne/eZ2ldISvgtOLnNk&ab_channel=TheProcess German knife maker zwilling luxury knives are made in Japan. Around 1970 Hitachi Metals developed Yasugi Specialty Steel (yasugi hagane) by analyzing and applying tatara ironmaking and tamahagane. Yasugi Steel has the same properties as katana, so it is hard, impact-resistant, and hard to break. This special steel is used for various purposes such as cutlery steel, high-end kitchen knife material, razor material, automobile parts material, automobile engine parts, and aircraft engine parts.

[@bombomos]

I also believe that there are certain techniques of making swords and sword combat forms that are lost today. Which could rival any smith or martial artist in combat

[@dimr1088]

Well yes. I'd still bet on Europeans. If a big Viking goes against a samurai, it won't be much of a fight.