What Happened to Dawn of War 3?- When Good Sequels Go Bad

[@razzyrazberries]

I think all anyone wanted was the size and scale of DoW1, mixed with the gritty graphics and tactical combat of DoW2.

[@kingbugs3558]

Exactly.

[@Redstorm1554]

Dawn of War 2 but with a scale that surpasses even that of Dawn of War 1. A beautiful and titanic clash between two or more massive forces. With a revamped and extensive customization system.

[@oddluck4180]

We wanted an official version of the ultimate apocalypse mod basically.

[@WellWisdom.]

Hell yeah.

[@8rynjar]

What? Company of heroes is not Dawn of War nonononono

[@GUMMRUCHK]

The asinine pursuit of the ever elusive "wider audience" has killed many games.

[@thisisaname5589]

Even worse, the attempts to make games that are built to have micro-transactions squeezed in from the very beginning. Naked greed.

[@MrGemHunter]

Has that ever worked? no really when has the wider audience play ever paid off?

[@BorenX1]

fallout 4

[@KotCR]

​@@BorenX1 Yeah, I think the "wider audience" works for genres that are already widely popular and played by even the most casual of gamers - such as third or first person shooters (tend to appeal to all demographics), or sports games (which more serious gamers usually don't touch, but the wider audience IS the casual audience). But when it comes to more niche genres, like strategy (real-time or turn-based), or traditional RPGs, companies need to realise they are only ever going to be appealing to a niché audience to begin with, because the wider audience has absolutely zero interest in it or that style of gameplay and nothing you do will ever win them over, and any attempts to win them over will gain you no-one and only alienate that built-in guaranteed player base you once had, leaving you with no player-based and rendering your title a failure. This has been proven time and time again. Specialist genre developers need to stop trying to gamble on making "All the money" and instead learn to be content and happy with "Some of the money". Those companies that do do the latter, always end up being far better off financially then those that blew it all on the former gamble.

[@BorenX1]

@@KotCR Youre qouting Jim Sterling there.. I agree..

[@operationkilled]

What core to me about Dawn of War Series is... ...the f**king _sync kill._

[@MisterZimbabwe]

This man right here, officer! Give him the"nail on the head award". Sync kills put the grimdark in DoW. It's ain't 40k ifit ain't grimdark

[@spectralassassin6030]

At the same time though while your troops are doing a finisher, the rest of your army is getting overwhelmed because your dreadnought is taking his SWEET FUCKING TIME! Sorry but sync kills have caused me to lose a lot of troops and I could easily do without them.

[@Drebolaskan]

@@spectralassassin6030 Bruh, simply winning the match isn't winning here, winning means bathing in virtual blood

[@spectralassassin6030]

Drebolaskan And I can’t do that if my troops are dying because they have no support.

[@borissegovia5527]

@@Drebolaskan winning is having sync kills in a good game

[@AleK0451]

>dark crusade doesn't have the overpowered factions >necrons hahahahahahahahahaha

[@1985Cyrus]

Especially in one of the mods (cant remember which), seriously fuck Gauss Pylons and their god awful cheese levels in that mod, they were unbeatable by any faction.

[@nemou4985]

Necron may have some OP components in vainilla Dark Crusade but patches nerfed them, also Soulstorm Also Eldar were the true unbalanced late game race

[@cc-bk3tx]

@@nemou4985 Tau too were broken aswell with the sniping around the map thing they tend to do

[@nemou4985]

@@1985Cyrus lol you mean ultimate apocalypse? That mod is not precisely balanced for any faction...

[@nemou4985]

@@cc-bk3tx yeah stealth teams maxed were a force to be reckoned with

[@charlesmercurio3810]

“Overpowered factions in soulstorm.” *shows dark eldar footage* *tried and failed not to laugh*

[@Novasky2007]

Soulstorm basically overpowered all the factions equally making a horrendous race for the first person to tech teir up wins.

[@maxxumus9891]

@@Novasky2007 *Laughs in a Spam of Tau Stealth Suits*

[@Novasky2007]

**Plays Uno reverse card - Awakend Monolith*

[@Shinigami13133]

@@maxxumus9891 and that's why I hate the tau!

[@maxxumus9891]

@@Shinigami13133 If it makes you feel any better, I run Dark Eldar on the tabletop. Just so happens that DE in Soulstorm play next to nothing like they do in the wargame, so I gotta make do with crack-cocaine grade upgraded firewarriors.

[@Retpwnzyalol]

DoW 1 was brilliant.

[@moodyowlproductions4287]

Yeah dont make them like that anymore

[@swefress]

To me, DOW1 was the core of the Dawn of War series. They messed it up with DOW2 which divided the fanbase and now there were demands on two sides of the table. At leasts that's how I see it. DOW is dead because of these decisions.

[@PugMaxer]

@@swefress I still play the ultimate apocalypse mid when I have a chance

[@Zangdoodle]

wish you could zoom the camera out more

[@ImAlpharius]

The dreadnaut AI was annoying

[@KingOfMadCows]

DoW 3 reminds me a lot of Command and Conquer 4, especially at release. One multiplayer game type, pointless leveling system needed to access new units, half baked new game design, tedious gameplay, boring campaign with a disappointing story, mediocre graphics, and a failed attempt to move into esports market.

[@josephahner3031]

Since DOW 2 came out around the same time as C&C 4 you'd think they'd take note of EA's mistakes.

[@coolchrisable]

Lack of sisters of battle

[@thumbwarriordx]

This is pretty apt. I forgot C&C4 was a thing. Unfortunately DoW3 was such a flop it'll never get the refinement it so desperately needed. There's a nugget of something good in there, but it's just encrusted with bullshit.

[@Duchess_Van_Hoof]

There is a C&C4? Never played.

[@finns99]

Angelow, you didn't miss anything. Trust me. The game's mere existence is blasphemy.

[@jamestang1227]

So from what I understand: Dawn of War 1: strategy Dawn of war 2: tactics Dawn of War 3: Starcraft, Esports thing

[@FALv1]

starcraft? realy newsflash starcraft is a strategy game. ya git! ;)

[@Bodwaizer]

Starcraft is a "gookclick", not a proper strategy, and SC2 singleplayer reminded me of MOBA, more than anything.

[@Slimix_]

@@Bodwaizer moba ? What the fuck

[@kharizma1734]

They weren't trying to make a good game they were trying to make esports

[@jiado6893]

The style of Dawn of War is good for simulating Orks, Tyranid, and the Guard. Dawn of War 2 is what it's like to be a task force of Space Marines, Eldar, and an Inquisitor's squad.

[@ToaArcan]

My main understanding is that DoW's core is memetastic cutscenes. Especially if Scott McNeil (Mighty is he!) is involved. "SSSSSSINDRIIII!" "We'll call dat plan stupid. It's named after you." "METAL BAWKSES!" "Spess Mahrens!" "Steel Rehn!" "*Blood for Blood God! Skulls for the Skull Throne! Let the galaxy burn!*" Chances are everyone in this comment section read those in the right voices.

[@harbl99]

"Chances are everyone in this comment section read those in the right voices." Point of order. The correct pronunciation of that last sentence is "Do you hear the voices too?"

[@thatoneguy7495]

@@harbl99 No No it's "For the emporerrr"

[@teni8943]

@@harbl99 I think it sounds more like Kyras

[@tiredraven4668]

"Maim, kill, burn!"

[@ducky2885]

WHERE’S OUR FIRE SUPPORT!?

[@Sketch1ish]

What's the core of Dawn of War? THE EMPEROR!

[@Scorch0017]

"THE EMPRAH!"

[@WurstHans666]

Heresy???

[@toddkes5890]

Dawn of War 4 should be Sisters of Battle vs various heretic/Chaos forces

[@johntucker23]

Walk softly, and carry a big gun.

[@halo129830]

@@johntucker23 beware the mutant the alien the heretic.

[@pakornwattanavrangkul2550]

No no no, it was announced with a lot of hype, but when get got to see the actual gameplay, everyone just told them that this wasn't what we wanted. Relic ignored all feedback and the launched version was as bland as the fans of the first two games feared.

[@BS-fg7lf]

Pakorn Wattanavrangkul pretty hard to piece together feedback when its not constructive most of the time.

[@tomb7642]

what constructive criticism would you give to a hurdler who fell at every hurdle? stop hurdling?

[@cooljim1376]

-Bruce But there was a lot of constructive criticism. I, and many other people tried to convince Relic that the direction they were going in simply would not work, and we gave them advice and suggestions to make it better. Hell, even post launch I made suggestions to reach a certain middle ground that could make the game at least enjoyable. What did Lelic do? They banned people of course! Completely ignoring everything that was said all the way up to launch. Fanboys and mods for their official and Steam forums silenced any form of criticism against the game. No one wanted this game to fail, but Relic decided to be an absolute dick head to its fans. Even going as far as to blame the fans for *their* failure. Sorry, Relic is 100% to blame for this tragic flop.

[@BS-fg7lf]

Lord Pokeumen Im sorry but relic never blamed its fanbase for its failure. This sounds like false information you got straight from arch warhammer. Im sure there was good criticism and it was those people that were not banned hell. You can still find them arguung about the flaws of the game. I was on the forums to. And the peeps that got banned were the ones that went over board and absolutly bashed and flamed the game and saying things like (i hope everyone in lelic dies of cancer, DoW 3 is moba bla bla bla.) It brings little to the table. I would disagree about you saying that nobody wanted the game to fail because there were people that did want it to fail. Hell the entire DoW 2 fanbase celebrated and went back to playing the mess that DoW 2 is.

[@cooljim1376]

That is a wild accusation. Have I seen Arch's video? yes. Do I agree with everything he says? not exactly. Did I get my information from an actual Relic post closing the game down? Absolutely. Now then, I have the full right to throw some shade at you. Prior to my last post I have seen some of your posts, and you have proven to be quick to aggression, lack any form of proof to your quick assumptions, and have shown that you are very, VERY biased towards DoW3. If you want to debate me you will have to drop that bullshit right here and now. I do not deal in assumptions, I deal in *facts* and until you can show me evidence of these troll threads I am partially discounting it. I am well aware those kind of threads *did* indeed exist, and I do not agree with them at all. I am deeply saddened by DoW3's cancellation, and I hope the devs manage to make ends meet after this. If anything the poor management needs to be blamed for this. But a fair number of my friends, as well as their friends, were banned for supportive criticism against the game. Three of my posts disappeared a day after I wrote them up on the Steam forums, and other people started noticing they had the same problem as well. That is no simple coincidence, that is the biased mod in charge of the forums taking things down because it hurt their precious little feefees.

[@perochialjoe]

A huge reason Dawn of War 3 lost me was its awful singleplayer campaign. It was just a tutorial for the three factions and was boring as hell. Dark Crusade and DoW 2 had race-specific campaigns with their own stories and even mixed things up with RPG elements. They used them as a way to really bring the Warhammer 40k universe into the game. Dawn of War 3 had none of that and it felt completely sterile. I don't play a whole lot of multiplayer in RTS games and generally only play Dawn of War if I play a RTS at all. So the awful singleplayer really killed it for me well before the terrible multiplayer did. Hell, I actually enjoyed the multiplayer more. At least there I could pick my faction to play without having to have it interrupted by the other two that I didn't give a shit about.

[@RedWurm]

Yeah, I love DoW 1 & 2, but other than Last Stand, I only really play singleplayer (although I do watch DoW2 multiplayer matches). Even bloody Starcraft, which is all about the esports, put time into making the singleplayer distinctive and fun in its own right.

[@jcgamer892]

I'm a "rare" player that likes both Dow 1 and 2.....I won't even touch 3 with a 100ft pole

[@chiffmonkey]

I like 2 but it feels like it should have a completely different name. It's not a sequel to 1 really. Even the campaign kinda ditches all of the established personality for Angelos.

[@azerd1535]

I like them both as well, I play DOW 1 when I feel like leading 40k armies and experimenting with various factions, and I play 2 when I want a more narrative and weighty experience.

[@AFCbailey]

Not rare at all

[@keegobricks9734]

Dow 1 laid the ground work, Dow 2 rolled back the scale of the battles to focus on precision/depth, what dawn of war 3 needed to do was keep the precision from dawn of war 2 but scale it UP and back to at least the scale of dawn of war 1 but probably go even bigger. Instead what they did was make something with even less depth than dawn of war 1 had, and keep the scale of dawn of war 2. So in other words they took the worst aspects of both games rather than the best.

[@BS-fg7lf]

Keego Bricks What you are explaining is true. But impossible in the scope of RTS. You cant have massive battles and complex tactical combat. Thats exactly what DoW 3 tried to do. It is impossible to mix DoW 1 and 2 because they are so different in concept.

[@PcGamerHero]

I think the core of dawn of war 1 and 2 is being an over the top Rts where every unit and faction feels badass. In DOW1 this might mean huge combats and in 2 it can be very small team of space marines mawing down waves of tyranids. In both games the game try to make you, your units and your enemy feel epic. It's the RTS equalvilent of Doom. Dow3 fail to do so. While the heros are made to be over the top, they are goofy and take out unit too much easily, while your basic units just feel like basic units, not like space crusaders taking part in a huge never endings war.

[@DonVigaDeFierro]

You nailed it.

[@cesarsantana7563]

Agreed, I want a total war but either DOW

[@EmptyTenementSpirit]

"almost no good DoW music" "nobody except Vaati cares about DkS story" How can one man be so wrong so quickly

[@invaderHUNK]

The space marine theme is so damn good.

[@EmptyTenementSpirit]

@@invaderHUNK I can literally list 80% of the themes from any DoW game, the ones that dont get mentioned by me are still just "okay". There isnt a single bad theme in any DoW game to my knowledge, I never played 3 however so its somewhat hard for me to hold true to that statement so, who knows.

[@diotheworld8671]

The second quote made me pull out my moonlight greatsword...

[@tincano-beans2114]

He was talking dow3 and the lore is a rather niche part of the game

[@EmptyTenementSpirit]

@@tincano-beans2114 How is the lore niche? It's literally in the background of every major moment and hell even every minor moment of the game as it was built with environmental storytelling in mind. And he specifically said Dawn of War, the series, whilst talking about 3 having bad music which wasn't a change in his opinion.

[@SerMattzio]

Even if you just ignore the gameplay and just look at the aesthetics of DoW III it becomes immediately clear that the devs were failing to understand DoW and 40k right from the concept art stage. It looks like Starcraft but even more cartoony, with shiny plastic Space Marines and gleaming bright metallic Eldar. The Orks waddle about like cuddly little goblins rather than lumbering like hulking, sinewy killing machines. You could reasonably describe the DoW 3 Warboss Gorgutz or the Mega Armoured Nobz as "cute"...how ridiculous is that? Gabriel Angelos has transformed from a realistic haggard, scarred man in power armour in DoW 1 and 2...into a Lego Space Marine with a concrete block for a head. It looks like someone has crudely drawn his silly grimacing expression on his face with a plasticine knife. His proportions are totally ridiculous as well - his head is the size of a f*cking space marine's torso and he's almost bigger than a dreadnought. I cringe every time I see his new portrait and model, it looks painfully stupid. It's completely bizarre artwork for WH40k's classically GRIMDARK setting and doesn't fit at all with the previous games either. The only reason Relic would even design it like this was if they were appealing to a very casual audience who doesn't even know about the other 2 games. DoW 1 and 2 both had bloody, visceral CQC animations and intense combat. DoW 3 just looks like masses of Lego blocks coated in gloss paint being set on fire and thrown at each other. I can't even understand WTF is going on in 90% of gameplay footage, it's just a total meaningless clusterf*ck of weird looking units.

[@SerMattzio]

I mean, just compare these two photos of Angelos. FFS. vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/d__/images/3/35/Dow2r_angelos_godsplitter.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/640?cb=20111013173614&path-prefix=dow kurama-cdn.animegami.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/18153758/hr_p1spmwh40k-01exset_b.jpg

[@wilhelmu]

the fuck, why did they made him fat and ugly?

[@Doodoofart725]

Hey don't degrade lego like that

[@Doodoofart725]

SerMattzio on another note, why does he have so many teeth? I dont really know the lore but do space marines grow extra teeth for their huge jaws?

[@thyrussendria8198]

They tried to make the game appeal to a wider audience, and you know what that means: Make it as "family-friendly" as possible. In my humble oppinion, a person who proposes to make a family-friendly Warhammer.... EVERYTHING should first be brutally dismembered by Orc Boyz with their choppaz, then burned as a heretic only to have his soul devoured in the Warp.

[@TheJawsOfCerberus]

The core of DoW is just 40k epic manliness with awesome voice acting, and a solid campaign. Thats is why DoW2 was still well received. Fans adopted to the change of DoW2 because the game was fun and didnt spoiled the 40k coolness. The single player element is without a doubt what hooked the majority of the fans, most people didnt even play multiplayer, they just wanted to have fun in the campaign and maybe some solo skirmish games. DoW3 campaign is terrible and the gameplay itself is heresy.

[@mrbouncelol]

Exactly. DoW2 is not what we were expecting after DoW1, but it's still a good game. DoW3 isn't

[@avedis1990]

man i stilll play DOW 2 campaign because of its interesting story .. i never cared about MP all i cared was a good long single player campaign which last for 50 h ... however i really wanted to see the skirmish mode from DOW 1

[@hafor2846]

Some of the most iconic quotes and clips come from DoW2. Want to know what an Exterminatus looks like? Watch the DoW2 cutscene. Want to know qhat the Tyranids are like? Play the campaing. Want to know what Space Marines are really like? "There is the Emperor and there is war. Nothing more." It just felt like 40k. More so than DoW1 even.

[@Ughmahedhurtz]

@@hafor2846 I'll agree that it was at least in the same spirit. That said, all good stories are about characters, and the struggle between Gabriel Angelos, Librarian Isador Akios, Inquisitor Mordecai Toth, and the Chaos sorceror Sindri over the Maledictum was IMO unmatched in later games. But then, I'm a sucker for flawed hero stories. ;)

[@kevinnoonan5534]

The core of DoW is over the top violence mixed with 40k and visceral battles. The opening cinematic is a heavy weapons team leaving cover to charge *uphill* against ORKZ. Does it make any sense? HELL NO. BUT. IT. WAS. AWESOME. Does it make sense that two squads of reinforcing guardsmen can melee a Bloodthirster to death? Or Necron warriors winning in an outmatched battle with no morale solely by being too tough to die? Does it make sense that a horde of the Orkz weakest unit can overcome anything? Or pariahs killing entire armies? DoW 2 still had the grimdark yet fun core with literal exploding enemies, cover and landscapes. That is what any DoW should be about: glorious carnage

[@SultanOfAwesomeness]

>warhammer game >Endless Space music

[@thebigpleb7154]

God I hoped I wasn't the only one who immediately recognized that United empire music

[@TheMurderProductions]

Some Stellaris as well 11:35

[@NewGunBunny]

There is a big, fat line of text that says "there's no good Dow 3 music." and there is other text boxes that states where the music is from xxx

[@joshuaking9408]

My patriotism suddenly knows no bounds once 'Together To The Stars' starts playing when I begin a new United Empire game.

[@L3monsta]

@@TheMurderProductions also Starcraft at the 6 min mark

[@Josiah_Trelawny1]

so my short answer: you dont create a Esport game. your game becomes an Esport game or not but you dont create one on purpose. thats why Dawn of War failed.

[@zebimicio5204]

Unless it's a shooter, making an rts/grand stratergy game for ESports won't do any good for anyone. Command and Conquer is the prime example of this failed shenanigans.

[@aprinnyonbreak1290]

Pretty much. Overwatch stands as the defining example of this. Blizzard put in tremendous, TREMENDOUS amounts of effort, money, and marketing to make "the esports game", that has a hilariously anemic "pro" community that dries up the moment Blizzard isn't buying their smiles and hype at an astronomic loss. Blizzard couldn't do it, and was willing and indeed eager and desperate for it, they poured more resources into that black hole than some companies have, period. If it can't happen under those conditions, then you, yes you, ambiguous game developer, can't do it either. Just think of what could have been achieved if Blizzard gave the money they set on fire trying to make Overwatch a successful esport to NASA.

[@sicarius9156]

@@aprinnyonbreak1290 or into caring for the game in the first place. OWL got pushed while the actual game wasnt even fun to play or watch during goats meta. Thankfully that has changed

[@HighLanderPonyYT]

Funny, because the official statement was that it wasn't made with e-sports in mind. Could be a lie, but still.

[@theirishviking9278]

@@HighLanderPonyYT ...some of the base game competitive game modes play like a first-person ARAM without the random and hell you have mystery heroes if you want to ARAM

[@phm6834]

I disagree with your arguments at the start of the video. I don't think sequels should be different, nobody really wants a different sequel. Usually people want more of the same with an addition, bigger better wider. And Dark Souls did not lay any Foundation, it was Demon's Souls.

[@Duchess_Van_Hoof]

Such an overlooked game.

[@sernoddicusthegallant6986]

Why do people love DoW 2 then?

[@darth0tator]

@@sernoddicusthegallant6986 people love DoW 2 on its own terms and not necessarily as a sequel to DoW 1, many propably didn't even play DoW 1

[@krutonite6161]

the level of game journalism is stronkk

[@Internoobs]

This dude also tried to make Dark Souls 2 look like a good sequel which "tightened controls". Yeah right, s bound to an otherwise useless stat is really a big brain move. His estus argument is also hilarious considering that DS 2 also introduced unlimited and abundant healing in form of the different healing gems. All in all a pretty fumbled together video.

[@DeltaTwoNine]

TACTICAL JUMPING TERMINATOR ARMOR! Ffs they should have hired the guys behind the Mod Apocalypse... Now that was a proper DOW game, and it was just a mod, wait its still getting updates and its a mod. Modders did a better job then 3 A developer...

[@nicholasogburn7746]

Abu Hajaar Well said!

[@crfrider450]

I see this alot in the warhammer universe. Just take a look at fan made movies for example.

[@BS-fg7lf]

I Liked DoW 1 but UA mod to me was a mess and not in a good way. Not what i imagine a RTS should be like. But i do understand why people would like it.

[@azerd1535]

I actually just got UA today, out of curiosity what do you not like about it?

[@BS-fg7lf]

Adam Thompson Flipping terminators is absolutly out there i agree but in the grand scheme of things its not even the most rediculous thing to have happened in 40k. We are talking about an IP that defies any semblance of logic and realism. And that is ok its what sets 40k apart from things like star trek and star wars. It is its own thing. If the plot demands a space marine, terminator or even a lowly guardsmen to do the most over the top craziest thing ever. You bet your ass its going to happen lol. Just look at the crazy shit yarrick went though or characters like mephiston do on a daily basis not even gonna mention ultra marines like calgar or cato... Its nuts. Thats why i dont get why people get so worked up about a very tiny part of the game (gabe doing a flip) I agree with you though that army mortality is a bit overkill due to the elite abilities. But this was something easy to fix. Without elites id set the rate at which units die around the level of DoW 1. All they had to do was dial the brutal nuking potential that some of the elites had and it would have been fine. Its nothing to abandon a game over. Units die in RTS its part of the game its part of 40k. People didnt seem to care to much about it with DoW 1. I think it was the way DoW 2 played that made people grow fond of the veterancy system. I think generally that was relics mistake in the first place to raise 2 seperate player bases with different views and expectations for the game. We had DoW 1 which was a RTS with heavy focus on base building and DoW 2 which was a more complex small scale Tactical meta game with moba elements and then there is DoW 3 which tried to be both at the same time but wasnt enough of neither due to how impossible it is to mesh both games. Thats one of the reasons why DoW 3 was set up for failure from the start.

[@Zucadragon]

I agree with this video, but I found that most Warhammer40K fans simply found that the game didn't feel like it was part of the WH40k universe. Basically, the game tried to go for a larger audience and in doing so, sacrificed everything that made actual fans of the universe want to stay around. This has happened before, with games like Storm of Vengeance... When one makes a space marine in DOW3, one does not feel they've got a strong group of heavily armored units to play with.. No, they are trash units... Assault marines, trash units... Scouts, trash. Devestator units... Trash... Everything was simply trash when at one point an elite squad came along and showed you that they were able to wipe them out like it was nothing. This shouldn't be the case, because it's not how the universe works. So when every bit of lore, in most other games or books or in the table top game, presents space marines as heavily armored killing machines that almost have no equal. To see them get wasted in mere seconds is off-putting. Compare it in contrast to Dow2: The last stand, which was really just an added mode where three players get a single hero that they deck out to try and survive waves of enemies. Those three hero units are really powerful as well, they can wipe the floor with a lot of enemy units... BUT, it never feels like those enemy units are useless, or trash units. When the orcs come, you know it's going to be an overwhelming force with a disregard for their own safety, they will do anything to throw you to the ground with missiles, grenades or whatnot so they can overwhelm your hero unit and take em down. Oh shit, the eldar arrived, and they've got units that seem a little weak, but have very powerful weapons. You can take them down rather quickly but if you get caught off guard, their superior weaponry will make cutting through your armor seem like a hot knife cutting through butter. You're constantly at risk, constantly moving and oftentimes failing to work together enough to fight against enemy numbers and abilities. DOW 3, offers nothing of this, your elite units are practically invincible vs so called 'line units', you do not feel any threat from them, ever, no matter how many there are. And that's my two cents :D, it doesn't feel like it fits.

[@kompav5621]

Zucadragon I'd just like to add that their relegation to simply three races, making it look even more like a moba, didn't help. I'm personally an Imperial Guard player, hordes of trash units is my language... But I want the Astra Militarum for that, not discount Space Marines. The lack of races put me off, among other things.

[@Zucadragon]

Yeah, I can agree with that, I like either the Imperial Guard or the Tau, though if the game were any good, they could have added more races in later. The original Dawn of War had Space Marines, Chaos Space Marines, Eldar and Orks and only through expansions were more added, which is fine in my opinion. It's just, the base game is so bad, what's the point? Most unit types in the game are trash units basically just filler for when the stronger hero units appear to smash em to bits. Remember Dawn of War 2's The Last Stand mode? Gods, if they just made a full game out of that, I would never leave my computer. I've put so many hours into that.

[@RedWurm]

Oh, the last stand mode. The most disappointing thing about DoW3 was that it wasn't going to get us a new Last Stand. It was a bit grindy and broken at times, but it's the only multiplayer I spent any time with in any DoW game.

[@Zucadragon]

I played DoW 2 regular multiplayer as well, but I got into it quite late and the learning curve is so steep, that it's really hard to get into... The community was very nice in giving help and support though, some players even played games with me just to teach me how to respond to certain things, give me time to learn some of the ropes, but yeah, I played tons of Last Stand and also did a lot of brutal campaigning with a buddy. It was grindy and broken at times, but it was so much fun nontheless, like that time I gave my ork the rocket launcher weapon, which felt really weak and bad, but to me and my teammates surprise, it would very constantly just keep large groups of enemies sprawled on the ground so they could shoot and kill em without getting shot at... Or when me and my brother both had a tau commander and were basically blanketing the entire arena with mines constantly so nothing could really get close at all. Ahhh, good times.

[@roosterbooster6238]

Pavle Kobilarov the mixed race campaign as well... I suppose it fits in with the single player as tutorial for MP letting you experience every race..

[@Mikosah]

I would have forgiven a lot of Dawn of War III's sins if it had just presented a proper 40k aesthetic with lots of blood, guts, dismemberment, disembowelment, and powerful weapons that cause all of the above the moment they make contact. But what do we get? Huge masses of infantry sitting in front of one-another going 'pew pew pew' for ages before anyone gingerly lays down and dies. Bolters don't leave pretty corpses, they leave behind kibbles and bits. The mistake was twofold- trying to make a family-friendly 40k experience, and slowing down the pace of gameplay to a crawl. Otherwise, my issue is that there was just sooooo much micro. Even while you're already busy with base-building, and area control, and resource management, and getting tech/upgrades, you have to move around multiple hero units that each have multiple abilities to look after. A casual player can only be expected to handle so much at a time.

[@BS-fg7lf]

Mikosah Do you want a movie or a RTS game. You cant have both.

[@Blunderbussy]

DoW 2 had both

[@firesoldier343]

What he's asking for could possibly be achieved in dawn of war 1 with enough time and good enough modders.

[@franciscoostos8527]

dow1 and 2 have both,infantry go boom,and etc etc

[@Duchess_Van_Hoof]

Heck, DoW 1 had both. Ever seen a imperial guard colonel stab one set of claws into an ork meganob, then the other and finally throwing it into the sky? Making it the centerpoint of the screen and you see it slowly fall down to the ground? The over the top coreography of Dawn of War made the battles so much more satisfying. Assault marines finishing off an enemy by pointing the bolter at them and shooting a single bolt. Howling Banshees kicking an enemy so they fly several meters. I am horrid at micro but moving around several units and focus firing? I can do that, thus I could still enjoy the gameplay of the original DoW.

[@mechaluke]

I know a lot of people will disagree with me on this, but to me, even though I barely played the game, Dark Souls' core is NOT the challenge. It's the atmosphere. People MADE IT about the challenge because that's what they took away from the game, but in my opinion the challenge is only there to further enhance the oppressive feeling of being alone in a hostile world with unknown horrors that make you look like a kindergartener.

[@CrizzyEyes]

I agree. The key is that there are actually some very easy way to beat the Souls games -- the challenge isn't the "core" of the game because you can simply bypass it. Look no further than summons for bosses, and cheesy builds like greatshields or some magic builds.

[@jorgejustin461]

@@CrizzyEyes Souls games arn't even challenging, the game just punishes the player with near instant death if they make a mistake, and that's not a challenge it's just cheese. Monster Hunter is a much better 3rd person action game focused around boss gauntlet because it's actually fucking fair and lets you fuck up from time to time without losing all your fucking progress.

[@CrizzyEyes]

@@jorgejustin461 I find it incredibly ironic that you're complaining about being 1-hit or 2-hit by bosses and then immediately go to Monster Hunter as the "superior" example.

[@S3Cs4uN8]

@@CrizzyEyes If they're basing that statement off Monster Hunter: World then it's pretty accurate.

[@CrizzyEyes]

@@S3Cs4uN8 To be fair, it's accurate assuming he didn't get to later high rank or G-rank in any of the games, but I have gotten pretty far in 4U (World as well, but you're right about that one) and played some Freedom Unite as well, and those monsters will split you open.

[@plasmancer6104]

What went wrong? They showed us a Warhammer 40k trailer then gave us a reskined LoL/Dota

[@MisterZimbabwe]

God damn wasit a good ass trailer though

[@spamhere1123]

THIS! I don't know if, in the history of all of gaming, there has ever been a greater gulf in mood, atmosphere, and quality between a trailer and the game the trailer represented.

[@plasmancer6104]

@@spamhere1123 only thing close I can think of would be phone game trailers, if you can consider those games... or that's how bad it was that this is a comparison

[@spamhere1123]

@@plasmancer6104 I dunno if that's even a good comparison. Mobile games are trash, sure, but I've never seen one with a trailer that qualifies as a work of art before, and DOW3 was basically a e-sports-dollar-hunting cash grab with cartoony graphics much like most mobile games.

[@andremagalhaes352]

Totally agree, its the GRIM DARK future, and you make a colorfull game full of OP heroes? WTF lol. i can totally image a metting full of 40 year old suits; Throw in some heroes with those fancy hability thingys that make armies almost irrelevant, thats what the kids these days like.

[@commandermcnash5137]

There is something so painful about DoW3, it has everything that has killed the RTS genre: cartoonish graphics, trying to be a e-Sport and cattering to the MOBA market, attempting to emulate Starcraft. Some times I wish Blizzard never existed, with them becoming the how-to for RTS studios we have seen too many franchises sacrificed.

[@larkinor]

kotaku.com/5929161/how-warcraft-was-almost-a-warhammer-game-and-how-that-saved-wow I mean...Blizzard pretty much copied Warhammer and then changed a few things.

[@dolamrothknight]

um they were making a warhammer game. then games work shop backed out. leaving blizzard with a game but no license. so they tweeked a few things here and there. boom warcraft. good old games work shop doing dumb shit

[@a.j.4076]

I don't think Blizzard is responsible for the failure of DoW3, sorry to say.

[@Sonlirain]

To be honest i don't think many RTS games tried emulating Starcraft. The popular RTS games were always their own thing. C&C4 and DoW3 were the only big ones that i can think of that sorta tried that and both failed because SURPRISE it wasn't what their playerbases wanted. And it's pretty hard attracting people to your game when the core fanbase is a snarling mess.

[@mrvex6695]

Its not like theres that many other widely known RTS games, aside from CnC, DOW, Supreme Commander and Company of Heroes i cannot think of anything else from top of my head.

[@theimperialowl1011]

I would say the core of Dawn of War is aggression and map control. In both games, taking territory was key, but DOW 3 throws that out because there's no way to apply aggression due to the massive turrets. At least, that's one part as far as I see it.

[@Grounders10]

I have to agree with this. Aggression and Map control are hallmarks of Relic RTS games. If you want to win you have to contest the map. Resources are out there not in your base. You can't just turtle and expect to steamroll the late game with a giant 'Fuck You' army. DoW 3 lacks the constant jockying for positions across the map that has been Relics signature for years. Ultimately this was a Warhammer game, but it wasn't a Relic game.

[@HistoryGameV]

That was what I thought, too. Also with a bit of ressource management this sums up what DoW1 and DoW2 had in common...and what DoW3 in my eyes largely lacks.

[@Sonlirain]

Well the massive turrets were only there in power core mode i think. Annihilation has normal (small) turrets and an option to disable those as well. But hey considering the game is now dead that's irrelevant.

[@eirikmarthinsen3850]

A bad warhammer game that do no justice to the setting.

[@jacobs4545]

THE CORE OF THE GAME IS SYNC KILLS

[@Beretta249]

The core of DoW is the mechanics: cover, morale, building whole units, base layout mechanics (and buildings that have unique functions by faction), units that can mix melee and ranged, jump units, being able to not just capture supply points (a unique mechanic compared to previous rts) but to reinforce them and use them as hardpoints, and probably campaign mode featuring upgrade mechanics for commanders. Everything on that list is part of DoW 1 and 2 and largely absent from 3. Oh and being even-handed about faction presentation (90% absent from 2, but there eventually). IMO this is critical because it serves all 40k audiences. If you count Fire Warrior there have been as many games with playable Eldar as with Tau and Isha help you if you're a Sisters fan. DoW2 decided to throw this away like DoW3 threw away Last Stand. Because idiots.

[@k-leb4671]

Yeah I'm surprised he forgot about the whole squad-based combat that both _good_ Dawn of War games have become famous for, as well as the aggressive non-turtley combat due to the resource mechanics. I'm pretty sure squads were very distinctive to Dawn of War at the time.

[@ChadVulpes]

@@k-leb4671 They still are tbh.

[@spacehitler4537]

Dawn of war two at least came out with chaos, eldar, orks, imperial guard, and space marines. Dawn of war three didn't include chaos which was one of it's biggest mistakes.

[@diego2817]

@@spacehitler4537 dow 2 did no have caos until expa.. but yes it was a good game at least

[@brightestlight9462]

@@spacehitler4537 dow 2 came out with eldar, orks, tyranids, and space marines. chaos rising added chaos. retribution added imperial guard.

[@Willsr14]

"it's not like there was this massive load of negative backlash or anything, it just fell by the wayside after about a week" This is categorically incorrect. There was a tonne of negative feedback before this even released. When it first got gameplay leaked a lot of fans were upset and annoyed. I was there. You can still find the videos about it on channels such as Arch Warhammer. It was bad because it wasn't anything like the previous two Dawn of Wars, and it was trying to copy a game that was already dying - Starcraft 2. If people wanted to play a game like StarCraft, then they'd play StarCraft. But, people don't want to play a game like StarCraft, which is why StarCraft has such low player count and is only kept alive by a small and dedicated pro scene. This game was dead on arrival.

[@Azoth86730]

Ikr. The moment I saw flying, somersaulting Gabe and Termies at E3, I was like "no, just no".

[@glomibabel1894]

I play starcraft 2 but I would like games so. I would like warhammer 40k game like starcraft 2 playability, Your comment is wrong

[@IronFreakV]

Except this game is nothing like Starcraft. I really hate that comparison. And also the game is not dead by any means, it still has a very active community, regular updates and tournaments with thousands of dollars in the pricepool ( liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Major_Tournaments ). But it's not nearly as big as it used to be, mainly because games like CS:GO, LoL, Fortnite and Hearthstone have taken the spotlight. RTS games in general have declined signifcantly in popularity the past ten years... But Brood War Remastered was a big success and is still played competetively to this day. DoW3 should have just kept to it's niche and it would have done just fine, TW Warhammer 2 is doing great because it has only improved through the years because it knows its audience.

[@Mish844]

You might have noticed that the backlash was mostly wh40k community, not "gaming" community. The fact that you call for aneckbeard arch figurehead should be a testament to that

[@thehavoccompany-a3]

@@Mish844 90% or more of the people who at all cared about DOW _are_ the Warhammer 40K community. Honestly, the games being set in the 40K universe is the only real reason it ever got the amount of recognition they did, otherwise the series would have never been able to crawl out of the shadows of other big RTS names like Command & Conquer. That's not to say DOW 1 and DOW 2 were bad games, but they aren't truly anything special if you take away the story and aesthetics of WH40K.

[@CompendiumSafari]

1:52 Demons Souls created the entire foundation for every game after it.

[@phant0mdummy]

Such low hanging fruit I didn't even bother complaining about it, because "Souls 2 tightened the controls" threw me into such a fit of rage.

[@tomhaswell6283]

Yeah, the whole Dark Souls thing wasn't that thought through, I didn't agree on his analogy. Dark Souls is more than just challenge.

[@donpepe8440]

@@tomhaswell6283 what more is it?

[@tomhaswell6283]

@@donpepe8440 Level Design, tight fighting gameplay, atmosphere, unique way of storytelling(although there will be people not liking it), the world and lore itself, fromsofts incredible artistic design... Make no mistake, Flappy Bird was only played for its hardness, Dark Souls goes far beyond that.

[@witchhazel975]

Don't you mean Kingsfield? Demons Souls was a continuation of ideas that came from other sources.

[@Chromodar]

Good video, good points, I agree with almost everything said. However, this one small thing: "There's almost no good Dawn of War music so I'm using some on-theme stuff." You're kidding right? DoW1 OST is composed by Jeremy Soule who also did Elder Scrolls, Guild Wars, KotOR, Neverwinter Nights, Icewind Dale, Dungeon Siege, Total Annihilation, Supreme Commander, Company of Heroes and Unreal 2, among many others. He usually does good work, and I don't understand why you would think DoW1 OST is an exception. It sounds good to me, and when I look at comments for videos of it, other people seem to like it as well. As for DoW2 OST, listen to this: kzbin.info/www/bejne/n6e8g4d6e76gqrs - It's called Show Me What Passes For Music Among Your Misbegotten Kind. It's thematic, iconic and bombastic as fuck. Which was exactly what Doyle W. Donehoo was asked by Relic to make, and which he carries through on the entire OST. It's also long enough to be the background music for this entire video. Also, I listened a bit to Endless Space 2 and Stellaris OST just to get familiar with your music picks, and I think both sound too clean for 40K. Where is the grit and grime? This is the grim darkness of the far future after all. Endless Space 2 music also seems more intimate and personal, not enough broad epic strokes. Stellaris is closer in that aspect. Neither feels even close to as much like 40K as Jeremy and Doyle's contributions do, for me at least. Anyways it's all personal opinion. It just rubbed me the wrong way that you had a controversial one, yet stated it like it was simple fact. Some people think there's a lot of good DoW music, okay? :)

[@RatchildUK]

Yea I agree, DoW and especially 2 had fantastic music. It's what immediately comes to mind when I'm doing anything 40k related, as if it just fits and has always been there.

[@God_gundam36]

You know music is sergetive right?

[@helikos1]

Can't speak for ES 2 but the first game had unreal music! Have you played risk of rain?

[@matzco]

I agree

[@thewitherchannel1053]

yeah DOW 1 ost is a killer one

[@DAMIENDICE]

I see, you and I play Dark Souls for different reasons

[@donpepe8440]

Why you play it for

[@zachsmith8967]

I agree man, the story of dark souls 3 is amazing.

[@AmorellaOfficial]

@@zachsmith8967 sorry, didn't find it in game

[@zachsmith8967]

@@AmorellaOfficial ya it really is confusing and hard you have to piece together the items descriptions in game they tell the story.

[@AmorellaOfficial]

@@zachsmith8967 yes, it is. After reading Elder Scrolls/Witcher/Warhammer lor it's hard to be satisfied with the giant's pants description.

[@williamarthurfenton1496]

What made all Relic games, including CoH, so beloved, was the core of a particular squad based strategy system of most importantly cover and environment mechanics. This is the core they dropped in DoW3. Most people thought it was shit. I find it so annoying when you get these people who say "Well, I liked it", as if that means anything. The vast majority didn't, and that's why it died in weeks.

[@SerMattzio]

Also, DoW 1, 2 and CoH 1 all had real gritty, intense atmospheres too. DoW 3 (and to a lesser extent CoH 2) dispersed with that.

[@arekkrol9758]

i liked cover system too, coh1 had great macro games like dow 1 and tactical gameplay like dow 2

[@jonathan2847]

People just wanted high res DoW1 it was an easy task, a simple task, an incredibly obvious task. And they failed.

[@gambit0913]

I was introduced to the 40k universe back in the day through DoW 1 and fell in love with through that brilliant game.... I was never for MP so i basically enjoyed all of the expansions. DoW2 blew my mind away because it felt like you were writing the lore ourselves and i prayed for DoW3 to be COH2 style...i was against the game going back to a classic RTS because for one i felt that would mean the game lore would be lost in the macro aspect of the game and as it turned out the writing in DoW3 was very weak and did not progress the blood raven lore as the previous two games did...also in lore...space marines as a chapter is just 1000 men with 10 companies... the other reason DoW3 reduced space marines to spammable armies...when adding lore i cant even imagine going back to classic DoW 1 old school RTS large armies for space marines as a faction...

[@user-nr6gy5lh6b]

"Theres almost no good dawn of war music" how about no.

[@amacare123]

Exactly, the entire score for DOW 1 was made by Jeremy Soule. kzbin.info/www/bejne/joCsnWubj8l9epY The entire playlist is a masterpiece.

[@Duchess_Van_Hoof]

I might dislike DoW2 but the soundtrack is amazing. It is just the over the top bombastic, creepy horror or eldritch strangeness that I expected.

[@k-leb4671]

Yeah, I was tempted to stop watching after I read that.

[@TheVoodooMaker]

DoW 1's OST is shameful, as is 99% of Jeremy Soule's work (can't blame him though, this guy literally drowns in commissions). It fails so much at capturing the glory, gothicness and epicness of 40k... but then there is Donehoo and DoW 2's OST, and THAT was extraordinary. If 40k had to be a music, it would be what Donehoo did. I don't understand why Relic didn't hire him for DoW 3.

[@Web720]

DoW2 fanboy spotted.

[@Zettern96]

What killed the game for me was the lackluster campaign. It was basicly just a tutorial. The campaign was what I loved most about 2.

[@hectorromero4171]

lmao i know played in hard and that shit was easy as fuck.

[@chiffmonkey]

Tyrannid invasion is the stuff of nightmares. DoW II is the only time anyone has managed to portray it even faintly adequately. IMO it would only be better if the player controlled Human units (Guard etc) instead of Astartes, and there was Genestealer Cult stuff in there too. I'm fed up of Astartes protagonists. Best DoW protagonist was clearly Gorkutz 'Ead 'Unter. Also what's the obsession with every 40k game using the exact same 4 armies at launch.

[@Zettern96]

chiffmonkey I agree DOW 2 would have been a lot cooler if you played as the Imperial guard.

[@BS-fg7lf]

DoW 3 campaign was alright. But it didnt help that the first few missions left a horrible impression and the campaign overall was not geared properly and felt grindy. DoW 2s first 2 campaigns were decent.

[@lesterramos6468]

I entirely agree with you here. The very root cause of Dawn of War 3's failure lies with what the developers had in mind for the game. They wanted a game to be played in E-Sport tournaments or on Twitch streams, and had to sacrifice a lot of what made the previous Dawn of War games stand out from the RTS crowd. That in of itself is not a bad idea, but I found it arrogant on Relic's part to think they could pursue that goal without making the game fun enough to even be considered E-Sports worthy. Blizzard got away with it with Starcraft 2 because they already have an established formula for fun factor and competitive play. With Dawn of War, with each game playing differently than the last, does not have an established identity that would be considered worthy for an MLG event. I think they hinged on that idea to give them reasons to make new content, but because the game did not catch on, they said screw it and left the game to stagnate.

[@commandermcnash5137]

I wish so much Blizzard never existed, I would gladly sacrifice them if it means having C&C, Age of Empires and Dawn of War and the other RTS series.

[@fix0the0spade]

It's not all Blizzard's fault, Counter Strike and World of Tanks are massive E-Sports too. The problem is publishers looking at the five or six big E-Sports and thinking they can just release 'the next big E-Sport' right off the bat. Completely failing to notice that of the tens of thousands of multiplayer games relased across three decade of online play, about ten of them in total have ever been what you would call a legitimate E-Sport. C&C and DoW were doomed anyway, becasue they're attached to EA and Games Workshop, who would try to murder everyone's Grandma if it meant they could make an extra $5 a week (probably).

[@TheGhjgjgjgjgjg]

The first Dawn of war (including expansions) is pretty much as far as they could realistically go with the franchise without changing the formula.Of course they could update the graphics,destructibility,cover system.It's a shame the 3rd game and even the 2nd in my opinion never could hold a candle to the first,but it is a masterpiece.

[@stringstorm]

"I wish Blizzard never existed." Fun Fact! WarCraft was supposed to be a Warhammer game. Games Workshop backed out on their license. Blizzard didn't want to throw all their work and resources down the drain so they just made a few changes and released it as their own. That's why you see alot of similarities. So if you're regretful that Blizzard exists to set the standard for an RTS (I sure don't. They were, after all, the first ones to mainstream different factions with different stats), don't blame Blizzard. Blame Games Workshop.

[@Legiro]

They didn't need to do anything drastic. E-sports scene was self sustaining itself in DoW1 and DoW2. It was small, there weren't any big tournaments, but that's due to the lack of any sort of support from publisher and developer, beyond maybe one WCG and token support at release. And if they wanted "to tap into the crowd Starcraft 1 tapped", that is get wider audience - guess what, that audience was already taken. You can't contend for it with half-hearted effort.

[@monte6777]

When me and my friend discovered Ultimate Apocalypse and played it day and night, we could only imagine what DoW3 would be like... Fast forward years later. We check the trailers. Supreme dissapointment. Guess it's UA forever..

[@usernamunavailiable]

Yup, all they had to do was look at the mod scene, and provided some of that., along with a dash of building on the lore.

[@notsosecretsnacker5218]

@@usernamunavailiable imagine if they did the story of 2, with UA mechanics and the actual scale of a tyranid invasion. Shit would have been immense yo

[@monte6777]

@Xen Glaris I'm 2 weeks late but try the UA discord, it's linked on the ModB page

[@diego2817]

Dow core ? 1: voice acting 2: melee/range 3: caos 4: sync kills 5: good graphics

[@indrickboreale7381]

Yes. Voice acting.

[@mrpachaaa]

@@indrickboreale7381 Especially Boreale's :^).

[@doomyboi]

@@mrpachaaa Boggles my mind we can get two different completely polar opposite examples of peak excellence between Boreale and Eliphas in the same game.

[@hideshisface1886]

One thing I would disagree with the whole game "core" thing - it does not have to be a single thing. Let's drift again to Dark Souls shall we? Dark Souls is not only the challenge, it is a combination on things - no, you can't have Dark Souls without Gothic medieval setting, you can't make it into a cyberpunk for example and still call it Dark Souls. You can't make Dark Souls without iconic rolling and obscenely telegraphed moves and character progression system. And finally the story - guess why so many people ditch Dark Souls 2 as not a "true" Dark Souls game - because it has so little to do with the first game - it has plenty to do with a DLC to it, but not with the main plot. As for Dawn of War 3 - this game is a combination of developer's ignorance AND arrogance. The blind search for wider audience with MOBA elements isolated fans of the originals, while failing to gather interest of MOBA/competitive RTS fans - WHY WOULD they even look at DoW 3 if they already had their games. Relic literally tried to punch into the market that was already full. Another problem is that they completely ignored complaints of fans - since the early beta-tests people were raising their concerns about multiple things - botched elite system, somersaulting Terminators, lascannons firing like multilasers (C.S. Goto would be proud), Eldar having GOD DAMN SHIELDS, lack of cover system, lack of sync kills, lack of Paul Dobson as Gabriel Angelos, lack of Nicole Oliver as Macha... Basically no original voice actors. While it is true that there are two camps about Dawn of War 1 and 2 - they both basically wanted the same thing - scale, complex basebuilding and customisation of DoW 1 combined with cover system and complexity of combat from DoW 2. Instead, people got a mashup of DoW 1 and 2 indeed, just worst of the two games instead of the best. Annoying base turrets from DoW 2 turned up to 10. Annoying and restrictive hero/elite system from 2 as well. Annoying spaminess of the original DoW 1 (I'm not talking about Dark Crusade and on, the VERY original). On top of that people got corridor-like maps, not destructible environment, virtually no cover system, no diverse animations and sync kills that made the original games famous in their own right, no dynamic movement of units of DoW 2, no squad upgrades and customisation from DoW 1. To add insult to injury, we still got insane conflicts with Warhammer 40k fluff both DoW 1 and 2 are kind of infamous for - the thing is - in those games at least those inaccuracies were hilarious in their own right and at the very least were a meme material. DoW 3 was a mess destined to fail the very second it hit the shelves.

[@BS-fg7lf]

HidesHisFace What you described with Darksouls is kinda of what happened with DoW 2.... Relic did a poor job with brand managment. Which is the reason why the fanbase is cocked up.

[@nemou4985]

tHE LACK OF DIVERSE ANIMATIONS WITH ALL UNITS USING THE EXACT ONE AT EVERY TIME REALLY MADE THER VIDEOS OF IT TO LOOK veryu STALE INCOMPARIson to DOW1 in the video. All the particle effects don't cover the fact that they just animated a single sequence for all actions.

[@oprea100]

Yeah the whole nonsense about the "core" of a game confused me...he has no fucking idea what he's talking about. So if I made a very challenging puzzle game set in space, I'm still adhering to the core of dark souls?

[@MrAmbrosse]

Ah yeah, I even forgot about that destructible environment, that was such a good feature. Again, they removed everything that made the previous games good.

[@Hoboharry97]

That Starcraft skit was good, well done.

[@m.meiburger1970]

Dark Crusade & Soulstorm = Dow at its finest

[@chiffmonkey]

TBH all 4 of the originals were. 1 launched the series with a surprisingly good campaign. Winter Assault did that interesting multi-faction campaign. Dark Crusade campaign map and Soulstorm is kinda just more Dark Crusade.

[@williamgoo7621]

Delete Soulstorm and I would agree with your statement.

[@chiffmonkey]

No soulstorm, no apocalypse

[@Tube_Chaser]

Soulstorm is great only because of the modding support. The campaign was pretty disappointing

[@TunnelVisionAthletic]

Dark Eldar were amazing

[@Dknightxs]

the first 2 games felt like Warhammer 40k games.. the third one jumped on the moba bandwagon. I really wish they do a remake of Dawn of war 1. I remember when dark crusade came out I had to call in sick because was too busy enjoying it.

[@Envy_Dragon]

Dawn of War 3 broke my heart with all its missed potential. It actually has the strongest faction identity of the 3, in my opinion; Space Marines actually feel like a small, elite force that needs to exploit their advantages to win, Orks feel like a horde that runs on shared hype (they LITERALLY get buffs by initiating a death metal concert), and Eldar dominate the hit-and-run game by wearing down enemies before they can take any real losses. Space Marines felt elite rather than being the "normal" guys, Orks felt as chaotic and crazy as their lore suggests, Eldar win through death by 1000 cuts. It's just that every battle felt like hordes of faceless goons mashing each other's faces, with a few really distinct heroes in between that make the rest of the game feel irrelevant. I hope they try again sometime soon. DoW4 could be pretty cool, especially if they set it in Gathering Storm... Primaris Blood Ravens, Ynnari, maybe some modern Necrons?

[@anghbalahr2971]

What happened to DOW 3? Moral-system was ripped out. Units feeled damage-wise the same. Champions were totally overpowered, much worse than LOL-Champion vs minion. It was just who can build their champions first and gobble up the enemy-hordes

[@kevinnoonan5534]

NO SYNC-KILLS

[@artios162]

DoW 1 and 2 are vastly different but feature never change: 40k atmosphere, kill sync and a semi-realistic combat system. I still remembered that stupid of a opening for DoW 3 demo. The not Gabriel Angelos jumping 10m onto a cliff while back flipping with his hammer. The one sentence kill my hype for DoW to the point i stop caring for the game after that. As a fan of both Dow 1 and 2, 3 feel so boring to play. Assault Marine become "light infantry", las canon become some kind of rapid firing lazer gun, bubble cover, grenade that glow in the dark, light that cover 50% of the screen during big fight and the dev priorities "unit movement style" so that we can recognize them by how they walk. I am sorry but even a person that don't know Warhammer can tell the different between a tactical, assault and a devastator marine without looking at how they walk thank you very much.

[@BS-fg7lf]

Horacious Barelian Clarity is a pretty important feature that was pretty poor in DoW 2. Not saying that DoW 3 did a better job at clarity but they did improve it. This has nothing to do with people being stupid its just that sometimes in DoW 2 you lost games because of a powerful ability you didnt see coming. Example nurgle plague cloud wiping out entire armies in retreat etc etc.

[@KingOfMadCows]

The campaign map in DoW 1 wasn't added until the second expansion. The base game and the first expansion had mostly linear campaigns.

[@YourCRTube]

I guess it is 2 vs 1 gameplay, incl the exp for each.

[@raziel6304]

Which were still better than the ones in DoW3

[@Sifer2]

Yeah I think DOW1 gets a pass for being the first one. Even though it wasn't as great as people remember until expansions. By contrast DOW2 was better out of the gate thanks to the cool rpg style campaign but also not as good in multiplayer until some balance patches. No one gave DOW3 a chance to get better though because it was just so mediocre, and boring from the start an it shouldn't have been since it was the third damn game.

[@ereder1476]

Jav253 there was NO POINT in giving dow3 " a chance" because they had all the chance they could and yet their update was more skin and moba-like character like ironclad dreadnought who was basically "league of legend's malphite" ... but hey, dow3's dreadnougt's voice is eldar so .. fuck it, fuck them.

[@aiden_macleod]

DOW 1: Loved the units and combat. DOW 2: Loved the graphics and artifacts and Relics, which were actual items you could equip instead of just being another strategic point that unlocked abilities. DOW 3: Love the combat AND the graphics.

[@tikyorules]

all DoW fans, all we ever wanted was for DoW 3 to be made with DoW 2 graphics with current systems tweak and upgrades and the gameplay and base building of DoW 1, that's it... that's all i wanted and i bet most DoW fans wanted for DoW 3 but relic had to compete with starcraft as an esports game, and now.... and now... they didn't even made a DLC faction for the imperial guards.... dammit!!!

[@Farseer1995]

Hell yes. That's precisely what we wanted. The realism of DoW2 and it's gritty graphics but on a much larger scale.

[@justjoe5373]

Tbh one good thing in the DoW 3 was how you can give your orks armor by going to the scrap piles. Don't know about the rest of the factions since I only played first mission with the big cannon, I just couldn't force myself through more

[@essexclass8168]

Basically UA with an actual budget

[@lineage254]

@@justjoe5373 Iam a huge warhammer fan fantasy and 40k i have every game even the diablo like games of the ps4 i have win every single one of those games multiple times except dow 3, every time i play that game it feels off, is not really a warhammer game it just has a warhammer skin.

[@nightlock826]

I think your missing the point in dark souls. Yes the gameplay is essential but the atmosphere and tone is also just as important. If they didn’t manage to make it so interesting they wouldn’t have done so well. Just look at salt and Sanctuary as a example. DOW 3 failed in both atmospheric and story. While no the DOW series is by no memes a Shakespearean story, it dose give incredibly voice acting that carries the story. Also it threw all of the realism people enjoyed out of the window. Orks now act and look like Saturday morning cartoon villains. The space marines have no weight to them and the eldar have no grace. Just look at jumping jack Gabriel for a good example. Also it failed at being a RTS game. Just spam heroes out and you win. Granted I give you that your reasoning is not ludicrous, I personally thought it was a unique take on a MOBA game. But due to balancing and shit updates along with have a gross mis understanding of both the universe of Warhammer and what people wanted. They failed

[@Tube_Chaser]

A sequel doesn't necessarily need to be different than its predecessor to be good, just improve upon it

[@Tube_Chaser]

Also, to imply that micro managing units is not important in the first DoW is some heavy misinformation

[@doomleika]

And when dev do people just complain devs being lazy and yearly cod/ac clone.

[@N4ikel]

I liked all the dawn of war games, played them all and i might know why the third one lost the interest of people really fast. The first reason was when the game couldn't even be playable. I mean the graphics. Players saw the trailer, this magnificent trailer when you say "wow" and were waiting for that famous grim and dark ambience but were greeted with the cartoonish style of dawn of war 3. Not even in sell, Dow3 got people talking trash on it. The second reason was the army management, in DoW2 each unit is really important. In the first one, Squads of units are really difficult to eleminate as you could renforce them anytime you wish and could handle more damage (and others reasons tbh), Making this army management in the first 2 really intersting and fun to play, watching for your step, and your units. In Dow3, it's not about units, it's about Army. An army can die really fast, can just run back to your base being even able to take less damage doing so making your decision not important. They feel weak and not important because in front of them are... Elites. elite in down of war 2 was working because you had a very small army, and it's only a powerful leader, the others units have all their roles to do and feel important. In down of war 1st. those elites are just kind of bonuses. You could destroy an ennemy army without having them, it was the managing of your troops that allows you victory. In the third, all is concentrated around them. They just cut armies in half , are bags of HP and an annoyance to the fight against the two armies. So you totally forget all the forces you managed to create for those stupid overpowered heroes and, as all your forces can die pretty fast, you can lose your armies in 20sc. The covering system wich was really an idiot move as it forced people to play in a static mod and you just can't bring that when you used to do such a good cover mechanic with DOW 2. Even the first one got better covering system (and vulnerable environment for troops) NDLR: 1- graphic and ambience (core of all Warhammer games) 2- Army management

[@REgamesplayer]

The issue is why you do not find the core of DoW is because you dismiss the most important elements out of hand. The feel of the game. The atmosphere. Both DoW games took itself seriously. They had presented player with brutal and enjoyable campaign where DoW3 is an insult to the lore. Both games felt like DoW games. They were brutal, full of spectacle and aggressive in playstyle where aggressive map control was the key. DoW 2 felt like DoW 1 game, because due to these qualities. It signified grim, darkness of w40k millenium. DoW3 threw all of that out of the window by talking how it is a moba. How it is catering to esports. It took out all the atmosphere out of the DoW games. All the depth and complexity. It wasn't hard to create DoW3. Anything new or old would had been great. Total War DoW3? Massive unit sizes? Titans? Oh yes, charge me harder Relic! Yet, it was neither of that. Relic put everything that games hate most. Focus groups. Imaginary wider audiences. Mobas. Esports. Disrespect to lore like jumping terminators. Anime style graphics. Arcade playstyle. The entire atmosphere and soul of DoW was gone. This is nothing which is hard to define as parts leading to said disaster were obvious from the start. Just go and watch Arch Warhammer. He called from the day 0 this disaster.

[@khurgar8120]

I had no media input on DoW3 at all when I first tried it and I actually think its kind of fun. Its sad that they dumbed down cover and its sad that they removed the close combat killing animations but other than that I find it to be a decent game. I think that the bigger problem is that they are pushing a dead genre, which is probably why they were pushing the moba part (Which I didnt even know they did) since moba is a lot more popular than rts.

[@BS-fg7lf]

REgamesplayer DoW 1 and 2 are completely different games man. They dont even play alike. How can you say they are similiar? Not really gonna address the rest of what you said because it looked like you were going down rant valley which hardly ever is correct. And you mentioning the name arch warhammer just makes me assume the worst about you because arch is the worst when it comes to reviewing or commenting on games.

[@BS-fg7lf]

Khurgar Relic made it clear that they wanted units to be more responsive. Thats why sync kills were removed which dramatically improved unit control. They should have compensated by adding more melee animations though. I wouldnt take the ramblings of moba screechers to heart though. DoW 3 has less moba mechanics than DoW 2 does. Yet you dont hear them flame about it in DoW 2.

[@REgamesplayer]

Atmosphere.

[@MartinsPrusis]

Yup, the main reason to play a Warhammer 40 k game is the Atmosphere. And DOW 1 and 2 really gave you that grim dark feel. Did not buy DOW 3, was clear that outside of the trailers game it self was not a Warhammer 40k game, first trailer was good though.

[@mulatdood]

Difficultly is not the core of dark souls. If they made an extremely difficult match-3 game and called it a dark souls game that wouldn't work.

[@ezariogerion3138]

He didn't say difficulty. He said challenge. Which means not only how hard it is to win, but the transparency in the why's and how's the game works. It's about telling what you have to do to, while being difficult.

[@ZanesZygot]

@@ezariogerion3138 Still wrong, exactly for thinking the game is about challenge they made Dark Souls 2 the way it was. They thought they were delivering more of what the players wanted, but it was not, because world-building was the core.

[@primedecanus5301]

Thales Zanes The reason that Hidetaka Miyazaki made dark souls was because he saw that the way video game were going was more story focused. He still wanted to make a game that had gameplay be the most important thing without the need to hold the players hand the whole game. The core of dark souls’ game is challenge with the gameplay being the next. The only part of the story story that is told you point blank is the opening. Everything else had to be found by players and speculated by the community. You can’t paint a painting without a canvas and the world of Lordran is just that, a canvas. Everything else is for the player to apply the paint (Challenge) to.

[@donpepe8440]

@@ZanesZygot what is the world building you talk about?

[@el9b]

@@donpepe8440 dark souls 2 didn't have world building it buckled down on the challenge part and where that was gonna be was in the unique dynamic lighting,having to use torches to get through areas and balance a time limit on said torch, of course the dynamic lighting was gutted and only a skeleton of what was remained,due to poor frame rate so what your left with is a game that's intentionally hard for the sake of it with nothing of what originally drew players in, yes the challenge was part of the game but your reward was seeing the next piece of the game,trying to piece together the lore, the interesting areas,and backstory is what kept me coming back for thousands of hours if I just wanted bull busting difficulty for the sake of difficultly, the ninja gaiden serjes on the nes hasn't gone anywher, which is why dark souls 2 is considered a good game just not a good souls game

[@thekosgator7502]

Flame me all you want but i didnt really like dow2 , i dont know i just like basebuilding.

[@ChadVulpes]

Many people do, buddy.

[@lineage254]

I love dow 1 more than dow 2 but i still love dow2, i see dow2 as what would happend if you where in a tyranid invasion so no psy coms, no big armys you just have to use what you have (so no base building), reinforcements are limited and you are fighting a war of attrition against a superior foe, however dow3 is crap.

[@Redshaark]

After DoW1 my favorite game of all time became CoH for me it was the perfect game. I wished for DoW2 to be pretty much the same game in the 40k setting. DoW2 was similar but not the same, the scale was too small, the units so expensive that a reasonable counter to a thread (like a tank or walker) was not possible. So I hoped again for DoW3 to be just like CoH2 but improved. I really think that DoW1 was the foundation of CoH. Orienting DoW to a CoH with just a little bigger scale would be the perfekt DoW for me. This would also be in line with the Tabletop, that plays similar to CoH or DoW2 than DoW 1 or 3. So if Relic ever works on a sequel after finishing AoE4, imo they should lean towards CoH with bigger scale and it would work for DoW4

[@HoFo-sw3cc]

@@Redshaark The thing that I really love about Dow 1 is populated army you could have. In coh 1 you could do the same thing. And voice acting in both (dow and coh 1) was marvelous that I still remember most of their dialogs! But when we look at dow 2 and coh 2 it became more of boss focus battle, where you just have 2 or 3 building and can not build more than 3 to 4 group of army! (Specially for dow2) Which there are about 4 person in each group! In my opinion the Core of dow is the factions, the variety of soldiers and variety of abilities every group has and base building, that most of them disappeared in dow2 and dow3 (I didn't play dow3). I still remember those moments in dark crusade which you were building your base and suddenly see hordes of enemies coming to your base. And then that beautiful music start playing (The most epic music in dark crusade if you remember it) Then I said to myself: everything is coming together! "FOOOR THE EMPEROOOOR!" Those moments are unforgettable!

[@kenners1993]

WOAH WOAH. I am pretty sure most of the Dark souls community loves the story. Also that was Dawn of War: Dark Crusades campaign, Dawn of War (The original) had an actual story driven campaign not the tabletop map system.

[@EleventhFloorBelfry]

Souls games don't really have stories. They have backstories and lots of random lore dotted about. You experience a world more than you experience any kind of actual plot, because the actual plot of all three games is "Go kill a King figure and light a fire." with any additional plot either dropped in item descriptions or in that cutscene at the beginning of the first one.

[@EbonyManta]

@@EleventhFloorBelfry The Souls games _do_ have story, but a lot of the context that turn the player's actions into part of an actual story are inferred from item descriptions, NPC dialogue, or the like. It's really more of a setting, or a maybe a mood. I would compare it to the first Metroid Prime game, actually, where you're given very little explicit instruction, and you have to piece together what's going on and why you have to do what you're doing from scans. The main difference being that Metroid Prime encourages you to scan everything and paints you a pretty clear picture in the end, while Dark Souls... well, it's more like a cool extra you have to work to find, and is often deliberately vague. I imagine it simultaneously appeals to those who like putting effort into figuring out a story, and those who don't care about story and don't like having one shoved in their faces.

[@EleventhFloorBelfry]

@@EbonyManta Isn't that like, exactly what I said? That's not a narrative, it's lore and notes, a mystery that eventually mounts to no real story that was outside of the intro cutscene. Bloodborne is the only one that truly avoids it by leaning really hard into cosmic horror tropes. I mean, yeah, we all like feeling big and clever for working out the intricacies and nuance of interconnected lore fragments but - Let's call a spade a spade here, the Dark Souls story, when all compiled together, isn't very interesting or even really complete. It's just fragments of tales scattered about that, as you said, set a mood, but fail to tell a story. It's all just names and places and esoteric terms and mysteries within mysteries that the combined forces of the fandoms, reddit and VaatiVidya cannot piece together, as there is nothing TO piece together. Still, great games, glorious worldbuilding too - Poor plots is all.

[@EbonyManta]

@@EleventhFloorBelfry That really depends on how you define a story. I think it counts as a story, it's just that it's the player telling it.

[@ethanphilpot7643]

For me, the core elements of the series was the games respect for its setting, and map control. Dawn of war 1 was all about taking over territory to secure resources to produce more units, and not once does it compromise the lore of the series for its gameplay Dawn of war 2 had that as well, but was more about grabbing territory on a map to score victory points and maintain your position. On top the game taking more advantage of its lore and setting to explore prominent themes specific to 40k (Wholesale planetary extermination, supernatural corruption, holding out against hordes of foreign invaders) Dawn of war 3 had none of that. It had a boring, interchangeable story that didn't care much for its setting, and was all about hero units with more focus on their special abilities and sending waves of trash mobs to your opponent's base before one side's defenses gives in

[@fatherofwar1203]

If they scaled down the power of all the elites, made the infantry unique to each faction as they should be and removed those silly cover things, the game could be good. But just watching those clips (though i should say i have played it) it's obvious that elites dominate the battlefield. What's the point in even building dudes when two abilities kills all of them regardless?

[@Duchess_Van_Hoof]

By the Emperor, I hate that cover system. It worked pretty good in DoW 1 where they just took less damage from ranged attacks and were located in reasonable places, but was countered with explosive and melee attacks. What were they thinking?!

[@Azoth86730]

+ Wraithlord and Aspect Warriors being limited by one unit is bullshit at best. I wanna ask Relic why, just why?

[@Azoth86730]

DoW 1 had many terrain-cover types. Light cover, heavy cover, negative cover etc. And many armour + damage types. And in DoW 3, all was gone.

[@pie75]

The heavy cover in Dawn of War 3 is still very much Dawn of War cover. An area of the map is designated to reduce incoming damage from ranged attacks, and must be broken by assaulting the terrain with melee units. This is all there, but it also has elements of Dawn of War 2, namely that it must be captured and held, and that it can be broken (albeit temporarily, which makes it useful, and last throughout the game, like in Dawn of War) the original Dawn of War only had 3 cover types, heavy, light, and negative (unless you count being in melee as cover, which it technically is), and all 3 did 3 things: 1. bonus/reduction to received ranged damage 2. slows movement slightly 3. bonus/reduction to morale and the cover in Dawn of War 3 does all of those. Unless of course, you refer to Stealth cover, which is only present in Dawn of War 3.

[@Azoth86730]

Dawn of War 3's "shield" is not a "cover", it provides full ranged protection compared to the first game's instant damage reduction and morale bonus and to counter-balance, movement speed decrease (and vice versa for negative covers). It gives me the impression you have never played any online DoW game before.

[@TheMEGANON]

“Humble Spacemarine...”

[@robohobo2325]

Pls the Core of darksouls is not the challenge its the Atmosphere. Though that Challenge is Part of it

[@lloydy68]

I don't get the obsession with Space marines. When a new game comes out it's 3 armies are Space marines, Orks and Eldar. Why not try a completely different viewpoint? Start with Tau, Chaos, Necrons?

[@wilhelmu]

adeptus mechanicus!

[@nastrael]

Because Tau are for weebs and dexfags. Also Spehs Mehreens are the posterboys of the franchise. Having a game without them is virtually antithetical to the series. And GW probably puts it in the contract that they need to have them in the game.

[@CzarnyMlot]

Me neither... but Gothic Armada tried that and there was significant backlash for not including the Space Marines. They were added as a DLC instead. This taught me that yeah, we need Space Marines, else people will get angry. I personally think it'd be fun to play a single-player focused game in which you play as an entirely different race. Eldar would be amazing. There is actually one where you play as Adeptus Mechanicus versus Necrons, not sure how good that is, but it seems decent and fresh.

[@MrAndre073]

@@CzarnyMlot there was a game on PS2 named "Fire Warior". It was shooter and you played as Tau soldier. There are games like gothic armada, mechanicus and they are good. Problem is that Space Marines are most known part of universe, making huge budget wh40k game without them is like making ww2 game in which you play Italians vs greeks or ethiopians. It may be even good, but it won't gather many people around itself.

[@MrAndre073]

@@CzarnyMlot w sumie mogłem napisać po polsku jak przeczytałem teraz twój nick :/

[@allenvrabac4827]

"There's almost no good Dawn Of War music". That's just unacceptable.

[@D_ROCK_8791]

Dark crusade is the best in my opinion I still play it I have a laptop dedicated to just this game

[@hanifimaaduddin1682]

Same here

[@Eddy-nn7wj]

just download it. have ye tried the fuckingly emperorly amazing titanium wars mod?

[@revanruler6404]

soulstorm with ultimate apocalypse is the best

[@michaeltorresii5248]

This dude is way off with his Resident Evil and Dark Souls comments.

[@thehavoccompany-a3]

He's off about a _lot_ of things. A good sequel doesn't need to be different - in fact that is often detrimental. What a good sequel needs to be is a _progression_ of what the fans liked about the previous iteration. Both change and stagnation are things you want to equally avoid when making a sequel.

[@hunterketch989]

DeadlyBacon he said the exact opposite he said you need to improve on what the last game while still being good and also not a call of duty

[@thehavoccompany-a3]

@@hunterketch989 He literally said in the video that a good sequel needs to be different. Can't time stamp atm, but he says it early on.

[@Dextergec413]

Kills me when people say Dark Souls 1 started the Souls games. Seriously? Demon Souls was insanely popular!

[@odinstorm17]

No, It wa not.

[@ianw5663]

Huge 40K fan. Loved the first DoW, not a big fan of the second, and completely forgot the third was a thing. Your review has convinced me to stick with Dark Crusade. Solid video - you've earned a new sub!

[@fatcatsnuggleparty4272]

Third makes soulstorm look fucking amazing. nothing should make soulstorm look amazing.

[@EmilioJVC]

What is the problem with Soulstorm?

[@galling2052]

@Emilio Vega Worse campain than dark crusade, less voiceacting, worse balance, highly controversal air units and very disapointing faction eddtions

[@EmilioJVC]

So, 2 new factions weren't worthy. I will try dark crusade again to see :). Thanks for the answer.

[@lifetranscendence3711]

I prefer Soulstorm because I enjoy the Sisters of Battle

[@Silduril]

This low key makes me wanna cry, I was so happy when they first announced DoW3...

[@Mure_nos]

Back before THQ went under, the plan was something more like DoW1, at least as far as the multiplayer. World-spanning warfare, with territories being fought over. And the idea of custom armies (you pick your composition), with faction-wide bonuses for holding territory.

[@nooneinparticular5256]

I liked Dawn of War II, but I wouldn't exactly call it an RTS, nor a MOBA. I'd say it's more of a Real-Time-Tactical game, akin to UFO: Aftermath, or UFO: Aftershock.

[@OutspokenSeeker]

As a person who almost exclusively plays DOW2's campaign instead of the multiplayer. I like to think of the game as being an RTS game with similar gameplay philosophies to the Xcom series. Where your squad layout and positioning is key, cover is important, sneak attacks and careful flanks are crucial on higher difficulties, and you need to keep a sensible balance to your team, despite how fun it is to give Tarkus some chainswords and turn your squad into Black Templar melee units.

[@nooneinparticular5256]

@@OutspokenSeeker Yeah, I feel that applies to the UFO games I mentioned. ...Though probably with a bit more micromanagement...and grand strategy. ...Or just generally leaning more towards Xcom (since that inspired it). Elements of cover, flanking, lines of sight, sneaking, equipment management, leveling up characters, production of resources... If you like both DOW2, and Xcom, I'd recommend the UFO games!

[@OutspokenSeeker]

@@nooneinparticular5256 cheers bro, I'll give the series a look see.

[@bawzzzz]

I'm more of the RTS type so I loved Dow1. But I admit I also enjoyed Dow2 a lot because it was just a very well done, micro intensive, skirmishes video game, and the campaign was well done. So I'm pretty open and a huge Warhammer fan overall. Still, I won't touch DOW3 ever. Pretty amazing how the developer couldn't even get a guy like me hooked. They fucked up so badly.

[@ultimecia102]

Dawn of War 2: Elite Mod... You're welcome! Watch "Indrid Casts" to get a feel for it.

[@k-leb4671]

I love watching a few of his casts when I'm bored. The spectacle of the game is awesome, more so than the strategy/tactics, although that's interesting as well (at least when Indrid talks about it).

[@Orvect]

"What Happened to Dawn of War 3?" They StarCrafted and MOBAed it! The "campaign" is a shitty predictable fan fiction. This game as being rightfully purged and erased.

[@ShogunLazo]

also friendship power at the end :D

[@Orvect]

@@ShogunLazo What I think of friendship in 40K : 1d4chan.org/images/thumb/c/c0/MyLittlePwny.jpg/400px-MyLittlePwny.jpg

[@PineappleForScale]

fun fact: after 2 years of the release of this video, dow ss currently has the most players playing the game among all of the dow games in existence.

[@carolingio1152]

after 2 years of this comment, dow ss is still the most player game in the dow series

[@carsontodd2443]

After you started talking about Resident Evil, I forgot this was about DoW3

[@matthewanderson6559]

Dawn of War is feeling like you are commanding a group of your miniatures that have come to life.

[@Razgriz_01]

If a game tries too hard to get an e-sport crowd in this time, then it already failed.

[@conker690]

“Dark Souls 2 tightened the controls” HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA

[@oprea100]

Lol, right?! Dark souls 2 has the fucking 8-way movement system, and the ridiculous invincibility change being tied to a stat. He had NO FUCKING IDEA what he was talking about when he mentioned dark souls, that whole section was so embarrassing I lost all respect for him.

[@phant0mdummy]

@@oprea100 Same tbh.

[@hunterketch989]

George Are you going to unsubscribe just because he liked a game that you didn’t? Get over yourself already.

[@MrMagual82]

I loved DoW 1, it was a masterpiece with a lot of balance and races. I truly hate DoW 2, can't remember exactly why, I remember it was something about the movement of the squads and kinda obligatory places to locate them to gain coberture, it didn't feel like DoW 1 in any way, and heroes stuff, supression fire...hated all of it. Tryed DoW 3 aaaand....omg, no comments, deleted an hour after instalation xD

[@TheWaaaagh]

It's simple really: We wanted DoW:Soulstorm with a new coat of paint and a new tactical map. DoW3 was marketed as if it was DoW1, but instead we got the bastard child of DoW2 and DoTA.

[@milkandcereal5473]

I like the map and planet campaigns of soulstorm and the dow1. Until they get back to that, I will just play Ultimate Apocalypse. And other soulstorm mods.

[@clearlypellucid]

I think the core of Dawn of War 1 & 2 was immersion. Sync kills, great voice work, great but understated graphical presentation, units which all felt useful and striking, and so on. Dawn of War 3 failed because it dispensed with MOST of this. The graphical presentation was loud and flashy, sync kills were removed, and hero units were made so powerful that the rest of the units felt more like fluff than a real army. The voice work seemed to be fine still, but that just wasn't enough.

[@TotemSP2]

We all know what Soulstorm is only good for. UA

[@nooneinparticular5256]

"SPESS MAHREENS! TODAY THE ENEMEE IS AT AUR DOOOR!"

[@Surtur99]

@@nooneinparticular5256 "WEE KNOW OUR DUTY AND WEE WILL DO IT!"

[@deejayxcrypt]

Kinda bold to say that "Dark Souls 1 created the foundation" on games with certain higher base difficulty. Whatever connects best with the audience I guess.

[@ezariogerion3138]

The core aspect of a Warhammer series is your attachment to it's characters. There is certain term for it - "your dudes". When in DoW 1 you upgrade your squads you remember each squad by its role: Tacticals that you outfit with missile launchers become "guys that can break vehicles and buildings". Predator tank with lascannon upgrades becomes your "tank to kill other tanks with". And you remember them, you use them and sometimes lose them, feeling that loss because you lost your specialised squad and suffer the consequences of their absense, when you encounter something that would be their job to handle. In DoW 2 it was more of the same, each squad had a purpose and you modified them to accomodate for your opponents. same tactical became "generator/horde busters" with flamers, "anti-heavy infantry" with plasma, "anti-vehicle" with missiles. You rememebered which squads had sergeants and witch didn't. You remembered which hormagaunts had slowing bullets upgrade and which upgrades you hero had. Even elite, late-game units had a personality, a character: terminators were "those awesome guys you can just throw wherever you needed them and they would do the job", landraider would be "your mobile base", baneblade was a "siege engine" that you had to take care of, swarmlord was you "linebreaker" that would lead the charge, every single one of them mattered. And then, we had a faceless mess of the DoW 3. Every single sentence in this video is true and this is the most damning thing about this game. Facelessness. You can't outfit you commander, you can't make troops differ from each other in any way. Every match is more of the same blending mess that washes over your mind. DoW 3 didn't have "your dudes", it had "competetivness", "balance" and visual spectacle. But nothing that would move your emotions, nothing that required thinking, and no place for you to implement your own personality onto the game.

[@jeffreydudgeon4579]

For those who don't get the irony of comparing Dawn of War 3 to Starcraft, according to legend Starcraft was the result of Blizzard working with Games-Workshop to create an RTS of their property and coming to, shall we say, creative differences. So Blizzard took elements of what was the 40k tabletop and created Starcraft from it.

[@JM_Traslo]

"They just made starcraft" The entire buildup to that I actually thought he was describing Command and Conquer Generals not gonna lie

[@makemap]

It is nothing like Starcraft. You can't even build super units like the first game. They are considered as elite unit like Hero units which is like League of legends. The super units obliterates the hero unit. The unit cap is garbage in the game. Even Company of heroes have a bigger unit pop. It has a nice campaign, but the campaign is basically just Red Alert 3 Uprising due to the maps with an end boss fight.

[@Jack_Sparrow_85]

After playing a 12 hour session of stellaris... Hearing its music played softly throughout a youtube video really fucks with your head.. 😂

[@bakijankela3]

My God, it's easy! The core of Dawn of War, why everyone plays it is the Warhammer 40k universe.

[@nazgulbarakas5767]

Well then if that's the case then why does DOW fans hate DOW 3?

[@bakijankela3]

@@nazgulbarakas5767 Because Relic didn't build on that.

[@cartouchator]

@@nazgulbarakas5767 because they did a shit job at depicting the aforementioned universe. Rather than added aspects of lore and following what Warhammer 40k does, let's just add lots of pewpew heroes that can jump around even though they don't have jump packs, oh and let's give entire squads plasma guns cause we like pewpew sounds and light beams and then we want more pewpew so let's give troops , entire troop squads handheld lascannons what the actual fuck. And then we have ork heroes that spin chains around them and somehow that protects Ork units against bolts fired at them like the most potent ammo in the universe, designed to pierce adamantium armours and explode inside your body, can be stopped by a little chain being spun around you. Yeah. Warhammer 40k the StarCraft cartoon is what I call that game. We wanted a Warhammer 40k dawn of war game. Instead we got a StarCraft mixed with league of legends game with a vague Warhammer skin over it (but very vague skin cause they act nothing like they do in the 40k universe) because they wanted that juicy e-sports money, and didn't give a shit about the 40k fanbase.

[@comraderamirez9866]

Wouldn't say that's the core reason but it is certainly a huge benefit. I played the first DoW game and then got into the tabletop having found out they built the game upon an already existing universe. It's the same with the Total War Warhammer games, yeah sure loads of people played them because they were tabletop fans so for them it was cool, but a lot of people got them because they like the Total War series and then got into Warhammer that way.

[@Grimsowerart]

Is that stellaris music I hear?!

[@thebrightking1897]

the one at the start is "Together to the stars" from endless space 2 and the rest of the video seems to have stellaris music indeed.

[@DaleWrecker]

yes, yes it is. I noticed it at ~11:30 and started thinking: wait, did I open the game on accident?

[@ringoflies]

"Sacrificed on the chaos god of esports" BRAVO

[@Tommybotham]

You know I didn't actually know you had overlayed SC2 footage until it was really obvious at 9:40. That's pretty unsettling - because it infers that DoW3 is indistinguishable from SC2.

[@tarnished439]

Dude, you used *Amplitude's Endless Space 2 OST* but no credit to flybyno?? Sega will copyright takedown this later

[@Whatsuppbuddies]

"Dark Crusade doesn't have overpowered factions" - Spoken like a Necron player. Also, DoW3 has pretty fantastic music. The shared core of Dawn of War 1 & 2 isn't gameplay or the nature of the challenge, but rather an attempt to accurately represent the lore and fluff of the series. There's reason why 40k fans fall in love with Eliphas or deeper characters like Thule or Angelos, and that's because they can lend a level of believability and versimilitude to the universe while also representing its more insane aspects. A clear example of this core lacking in Dawn of War 3 is with Angelos himself: he's no longer the pragmatic mix between strategist and guardian from Dawn of War 1, but instead seems content to charge onto a planet freshly emerged from the warp while doing backflips in terminator armour. This relates to the point you made about Dawn of War 3 sacrificing a lot of the depth and mechanics that were in the previous games, and in so doing, the game fails to meaningfully represent the huge variety and depth of the universe it's licensed under. This is obviously unique to the franchise compared to, as you said, Dark Souls. Because, at the end of the day, what do the words "Dawn of War" make you think about? The starting of a war? Being on the ground? Witnessing some big, huge burning ball rise above a scorched earth and being utterly powerless whether it does so or not. Unit lines, backstories, short-stories for each province in the campaign map, an extended campaign where you get to know each officer under your command, and an expansion wherein each officer has the potential and rational chance of falling to darkness. In a way, Space Marine is a better sequel to Dawn of War because it manages to capture the essence of the universe in the same manner as DoW 1 & 2. And the same reason we never saw a Space Marine sequel is the same reason Dawn of War 3 failed miserably: Relic was going bankrupt because of a terrible investment and was desperately trying to make money back; what's the most profitable, popular strategy genre? But a MOBA is also the same kind of gameplay totally antithetical to the Warhammer universe. It should be no surprise then, that the same management who sank Relic's money into said investment wouldn't realise the error of the design of Dawn of War 3.

[@nemou4985]

Necron may have some OP components in vainilla Dark Crusade but patches nerfed them, also Soulstorm

[@manuelruiz4377]

The great thing about Dow 3 was the sound track! I listen to it on Spotify when I play other games!

[@saphirone8030]

It is great how you analyse it. Most of the ire from the community also come from the lore breaking, poorly handled and unrespected treatment of the warhammer 40k universe, and it has been said times and times again everywhere. Silly abilities and animations, poorly made excuses to justify them compared to the previous games... Everyone in the community saw it, and all where extremely disappointed. While watching, I seriously waited at every minute to hear you coming up about this issue as well, but you surprised me, as you analysed this not as a fan would do, but as a gamer would, and it was refreshing. Sure I will not be mad or dislikes the works of peoples showing why our beloved gritty universe is not respected, and just serve as an excuse to make a copypasta of popular RTS Esport game, and in the end bash the failure as the community being responsible, but it's nice to have someone who can analyze what as games, and most importantly as a serie with such a complex differences, where it went wrong. Great work !

[@ViolenVaymire]

No mention of D2's last stand mode!? are you mad... Tons still play it even to this day. There was an uproar when peeps found out it wasn't going to be in 3.

[@jeambeam3173]

Idk about DS2's balance changes being a good thing. To many mobs

[@phm6834]

And the core is Ressource points on the map. Clearly.

[@Novasky2007]

Alas, if only they realized that XD

[@nathanlang1640]

I hear stellaris soundtrack, I press like.

[@TheReqem11]

What is the name of the track that was used in the end

[@hordeforlife]

@Adam Millard: You (and the others who use that comparison) probably meant the game reminds of WarCraft II. Two factions there had almost identical functionality and number of different types of units. Footman = Grunt, Elven Archer = Troll Axethrower, etc. But the "core" of StarCraft (before it became national sport in Korea) is exactly the faction diversity. Three factions in StarCraft embody three vastly different general ideas. Terran Marine is different than a Zergling, and both are different than a Protoss Zealot. So the fact that units from DoW III (which I didn't play yet, but based on this video) are very similar to each other across factions can't be reminiscent of StarCraft.

[@GTD_Galatea]

Dawn of War 3 is not a bad game. I had a lot of fun playing it. It's just not the game that Dawn of War fans were looking for. I've seen some people comparing it to games like Command and Conquer 4. That's not the case here. I own C&C4, and that game is terrible. DoW 3 is not a great game, but it's not a terrible one either. What intrigues me the most is that Relic removed certain features that were popular with the players of the franchise, such as the cover system introduced in Dawn of War 2. Then they restructured the game so that the heroes would have a much larger role in battles compared to its predecessor, had all maps made into 3 lane maps and launched with only a single multiplayer mode (Power Core - which is not a bad mode at all, but it is not good enough to compensate for the lack of the Annihilation and Victory Points modes). The single-player campaign with its fractured presentation doesn't help either. A more focused single-player experience would have certainly helped. DoW 3 tried to appeal to a new audience, but not only it wasn't successful at that, but also alienated many long time players of the series.