What happened to my Solar generation when I added another solar array?

One for the solar and data lovers
I’ve been enjoying the analysis of solar data comparing my different arrays so of course I'm sharing my thoughts and data with you
Our garden solar panels went live in the middle of August so we'll have a partial months data but this analysis over a sunny period has really helped appreciate the value were going to see. Depending on the weather up to 20% more power🏆
#solar
#renewableenergy
#sustainableliving
#lowcost
#green
#solis
#victronenergy
#homeassistant
#uk
Links & Referral codes
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Own a share of a wind farm rippleenergy.c...
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My aircon installer:
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Email: [e-mail]
System / Components
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Solar config
PV Ja Solar /Trina 11.6 kwp
14X280w (3.68kw Solis)
8X300w (2.0kw Solaredge)
4x450w Solis string 1
3x370w (2.5kw) Solis string 2
6 x 410w (3.6kw Solis) garden PV
Myenergi Zappi 1, Eddi and Hub
Battery:
Victron Multiplus II 48/5000
5 x Pylontech Us3000C
3 x Pylontech US5000
EVs:
Mini Electric Cooper SE Level 3 in Midnight black
ESoul First Edition 64kwh in Neptune Blue

[@themurman01]

Re microinverters and HomeAssistant: I have 32 enphase microinverters on 32 panels and I see per microinverter stats in HA, as well as the system aggregate. It would be cost prohibitive to do it for just 3 panels, as you’d need to buy at least their envoy network interface, and here in Canada, that comes built into a combiner box which costs thousands. The home assistant integration was a consideration for me and was one among many reasons I went with that solution. As I watch my system production, I am starting to think it’s more worthwhile to chase low light performance rather than peak performance (think first on and last off, rather than high noon). I don’t have any data to back this up, but rather a gut feeling as I look at cloudy and rainy day performance. Thanks for making these videos, they are always interesting and thought provoking.

[@EVPuzzle]

Very kind. Thinking is good 💡🤔 If trying to self consume without the grid every bit counts but if you're chasing kWh a few hundred wh aren't going to help much so lots to contemplate

[@toledobastos]

Hoymiles works very well with HA as well, with OpenDTU being the best protocol for monitoring solar production I’ve come across.

[@OCDcaeju]

I have enphase micro inverters on 7 panels on a second array here in the UK. You would need a micro inverter per panel and the envoy ‘network interface’ - the envoy is available as a stand alone unit, you don’t have to buy combiner units. The cost doesn’t really make sense for a single panel - but from an experimentation perspective I would be very tempted 😉

[@bivybarrett3672]

Yet another iconic video- nice new backdrop I see 🤩🤩

[@EVPuzzle]

Puzzling away as always , iconic 🤣🤭👏🥰

[@redjohn20001]

I believe that you can get solar panels that use diodes to bypass the shaded area so maintaing power from the rest of the panel. Thanks for the video.

[@cagcos]

Hard to keep it simple when you going for 100% efficiency

[@EVPuzzle]

Exactly my point Imo efficiency is more about just being efficient because you like it not justifying the extra . Sensible approach is to accept inefficiencies in many cases

[@DTech101]

😂 so true I was watching my garage panels and comparing to the house but shading isn’t making it that great but every little helps mine pops in around 11 and lasts till 15:00 optimised all of mine with Tigo optimisers. PS Victron released the Octopus DESS but needs some work as it wanted to run my battery in the day at 20% meaning I would be using peak rate in the day that got turned off fast I’ll wait for it to mature and see what it brings

[@EVPuzzle]

Victron is very new to this

[@tikaanipippin]

Use your phone compass/level app as a clinometer to check the angle against the horizontal and the compass orientation of your garden panels.

[@EVPuzzle]

Clinometer that's new to me , downloading .......

[@timmeadows6579]

Hi, Interesting to see all your arrays together - looks like you are getting a good amount of energy! Have you taken a look at the ApexCharts in HA? I think they will be able to do a stacked chart to show the total and split of all your arrays together in HA...

[@EVPuzzle]

I've struggled with other charts not quite being as easy to setup. I'll look again thanks for the reminder

[@timmeadows6579]

@@EVPuzzle Totally agree that they are not easy to set up (I think it is all in code), but the results are much more configurable and varied than the standard charts.

[@Jaw0lf]

I think at the moment whilst you get paid nicely for exporting having extra energy available is a no brainer if you can do it. Having as much as possible is the way forward as it helps on the worst days to at least to give a usable amount of energy.

[@EVPuzzle]

The journey and experience having lower levels has been an education. It's always good to struggle and manage with less so you appreciate it when you have more

[@paguk2000]

Nigel very intresting I have a west 7.6kw array the west roof is flat with no shading until late in the day. The other side of the roof has dormers so there room for some East and south panels.I will have to find out the dno max for my address, we have a limit of 5KW at the moment.I want to go down the air to air heating and extra battery storage to make heating the house as cheap as possiable especially when I am retiried..

[@fast_eddie3441]

Are there any planning permission issues with fitting PV to sheds or garages?

[@EVPuzzle]

Yes planning for everything like the shed in the first place . Is the shed within planning rules , did it need permission , does adding solar panels increase it's height or overhang etc . Research your local council for permitted works it's all height and boundary related usually . Planning can be avoided if you keep within what's permitted .

[@davespages]

7:58 If the 3 garage panels are on a single string of a string inverter then a single tigo TS4-AO will work. It's definitely something you can do. You don't need to deploy tigos on panels that don't get shade. If you don't have the tigo cloud kit then you won't be able to see stats for that tigo optimised panel. But the optimisers would mitigate losses that the shaded panel causes on that string. 8:50 If you decide to AC couple the single panel using a micro inverter, then plug the micro inverter into a Tapo P110, these a natively supported in HA and its how I monitor my 4 growatt 1.5kw inverters. Each on tapo p110 plugs. 3 second refresh inside HA 😊

[@EVPuzzle]

Thanks Dave that's what I thought but wasn't sure

[@EVPuzzle]

I'm favouring that panel going into victron to be honest but it's getting someone to help me do it Really appreciate your helpful comment

[@casemodder89]

how would a single optimizer optimize 3 individual panels ? it would nothing but average the power of all three. like that string inverter does already. individual irradiation/individual temperatures based on that and of course individual shadowing makes it basically a 3x individual mppt charger situation. 1 + 2 would average the 2 string on the string inverter and having that single odd shaded panel on an individual mppt charger would've been the most cost effective solution to that single panel dragging both the others down. a better solution for overall production but not remotely cost effective would be to raise the garage roof to the houses one and make is one flat plane. nobodys gonna reconstruct their garage just for a bit of PV yield. but if anyone was desperate for more space anyway that'd be an option.

[@EVPuzzle]

@@casemodder89 it wouldn't , just like Huawei optimisers it is possible , I not technically up to date however so best research Tigo to see

[@davespages]

@@casemodder89 with tigo optimizers you only need to optimizers panels that are shaded. On a rudimental level, tigo optimizers are dc buck converters. In a solar string the voltages increases with every panel in the series. Current must be the same for a panels (this will be the lowest performing panel) The tigo optimizer will sacrifice some voltage from the shaded panel to increase the current output to match the current of other panels in the string. Panels are individually connected to optimizers and the optimizers is in series with the string. That's how it can impedance match and mitigate some (but not all) shading on a panel. I have 24 tigo optimizers on my system, all cloud connected so I can see panel level stats for current, voltage, power etc. Total power generation per panel, reclaimed power (what would have been lost without the optimization). Also, on the TS4-AO Optimizers, they need 10v input to start working. This means even with 15 panels on a string which would normally start a string inverter at 120-125v(ish) you won't get anything until that 10v input (ala 150v) starts. But the delayed very early start and slightly earlier end to the solar day is a very small trade off vs the gain to be had by optimization with hard shading.

[@G6EJD]

I’m baffled why people always say Optimisers are a waste if there is no panel shading, they are not fitted for that purpose, their role is to track the maximum power transfer point of the panel loads to the solar inverter. To obtain maximum power from solar panels their output impedance needs to exactly match the solar inverter input, and that’s what’s an Optimiser role is. If people only took the time to study MPPT / Optimisers they’d understand!

[@EVPuzzle]

For what percentage gain ? I'm seeing no benefit whatsoever so what's the point other than it's a system design thing

[@G6EJD]

@@EVPuzzle you are getting a benefit it’s just that your not measuring the raw panel output without the Optimisers fitted. If you measured your panels on a per-unit basis you’d get a much better idea, meaning example: a 4kWp system generated say 20kWh/day or 5kWh/unit verses say 15kWh/4kwp=3.75kwh/unit s d then say applied this measure across your multiple systems you’d get a much better idea as to individual system efficiencies rather than just totally the up. In engineering no-one would compare systems using any but the per-unit rational. I have noted in the past that your SolarEdge system is far more efficient than your other systems, SolarEdge are world leaders in efficient sonar systems which is why they mandate optimisers. All I’m saying is Optimisers work and they improve electrical power transfer from panel to inverter and the benefits easily exceed 10-20%. Another way to measure solar efficiency is to get a solar energy meter linked to HA and use that as the per-unit baseline then you’ll know and see how solar illumination is being converted to electrical energy as that would be an independent measure.

[@EVPuzzle]

@@G6EJD I hear what you say and it sounds but but I'm seeing nothing here in accumulated output. Solaredge is under performing even with optimisers making it better . In some scenarios they're great but they're average at best here Optimisers do work but as I said on camera unless the benefits are tangible in improved generation they're not worth having .

[@leexgx]

​@@G6EJDbenefits are minimal (0-5%) and adds 8 more points of failure, a sunnyboy or alike inverter has had shade fix for a very long time If you want to monitor each panel they are great, but the price of enphase or solar edge is nearly as much as the solar panels then self's I have been looking at TIGO optimizers but even that seems to much

[@lua-nya]

​​@@EVPuzzle as you said, using the optimiser money in more panels is often a more efficient monetary investment. I've only seen optimisers pay for themselves in shaded scenarios where one panel would otherwise drag the overall intensity, but I don't have the spare money and space for long term A/B tests.

[@robinbennett5994]

Have you considered mounting the garden panels so you can tilt them to catch the morning sun better? You could do it manually one day and track how much difference it makes.

[@EVPuzzle]

I've tested with portable panels and the difference is negligible except in the peak extremes in winter and summer. The mounting I have could have bigger back struts to increase the angle but I'm convinced the effort of several hours hard work and risk in weakening the mounts isn't worth attempting it

[@Fluxkompressor]

@@EVPuzzle Have you considered putting them vertical east-west then? You have a nice fence there next to an open field. Replace that fence with some panels! Bifacial of course Get the space in your garden back and generate power in the morning and evening when you need it Vertical panels are great in the winter since they get not covered in snow

[@EVPuzzle]

@@Fluxkompressor obstructs the views as would have to mount above the crops plants and weeds . Aesthetics make it impossible to do but we did consider a solar fence

[@Fluxkompressor]

@@EVPuzzle One wise man once said to me: Aesthetics is for the neighbors, energy is for you But I get your point. If something has to low of an WAF (woman acceptance factor) it is not gonna happen

[@EVPuzzle]

@@Fluxkompressor We've only recently taken out a hedge and are enjoying the views . Id rather fill the lawn

[@nigelfindley9648]

Hi Nigel. I have a large south facing house wall and I’m interested in fitting panels on to it, like your east facing panels mainly for winter generation. What fitting did you use, where did you get them from?

[@EVPuzzle]

Installer just used standard rails nothing special

[@chrisnortheast888]

@@EVPuzzle Any chance of getting some close up images of the fittings? Maybe need a drone shot. I'm installing a panel on a wall using unistrut and I'd be interested to know how a proper installer would have gone about it.

[@EVPuzzle]

@@chrisnortheast888 I took some when it was being installed . You on twitter ? I can post them

[@EVPuzzle]

@chrisnortheast888 or email me at [e-mail]

[@chrisnortheast888]

@@EVPuzzle Posting them on twitter would be good because then others can also see them. I'm not on twitter myself but would use a friend's account to look at them. Cheers.

[@adrianflower3230]

Nice one, thank you Nigel. With my E/W system on the roof, I'm considering some gable end panels like yours as that wall on our house is S facing. I assume this will mean a new inverter, as my Solis is maxed out with the current panels, plus an update to my G99 with the DNO which is limited to 5KW presently. 🤔 Also getting my first electric car this year - Do they need DNO approval for a car charger too?

[@EVPuzzle]

No DNO approval not automatically needed but of course of you're pushing your power consumption on a small mains amp fuse they'll want to know about it sometimes as with adding other loads not just ev chargers . Separate inverter or mppt is better when you're adding different orientations👏

[@stevegame3000]

Interesting stuff. Thanks for sharing. What’s your DNO export limit?

[@EVPuzzle]

Currently in discussion .... Wasn't a concern until now but we're potentially exceeding the old limit , 8.2kw for short periods so now using Solis metering to limit export above whatever the DNO agree

[@stuartburns8657]

​@@EVPuzzleHmm. So I've got a G99 DNO approval so I can potentially go much higher than my current 5k inverter? DNO permission of course

[@EVPuzzle]

@@stuartburns8657 every case is unique but I theory you can add more but limit export

[@VillageVidiot100]

Interesting see all the arrays overlaid like that. I fear that connecting your shaded panel to a single Victron MPPT will not work for you though. A Victron MPPT needs Voc of the panel(s) to be at least 5V over Vbat for the MPPT to start. I believe you are using pylontechs so Vbat will generally be around 52V meaning you would need Voc for a single panel to reach 57V before the MPPT would even start. I would guess that Voc for each of your panels will be nearer 40V - check your datasheet. That leads me on to another point: Your garage panels may well have a Voc value of under 40V so three of them in series might only be making ~120Voc. You might be seeing that sudden jump up because the MPPT of your inverter does not start up until the input reaches 100V or so. Again check your inverter datasheet. You could sit and look at the front panel of the inverter to see what it is reporting on voltage at the start of the day. Can you get the panel voltages out of the Solis into home assistant? That would give you a better idea of what is going on. The shading will cause the bypass diodes on that one panel to activate dropping the voltage from it so it could well be that there is power there but it doesn't really start coming in until there is sufficient voltage to get the MPPT working. If that does look like what is going on I would either change all three to mictroinverters or put all three into a Victron MPPT. Don't worry about the shading - the bypass diodes will deal with it. I don't think optimisers will help at all. The Victron option would be preferable - you won't need to get onto the roof to unmount the panels and get 240v cabling up there and you won't have to re-do your G99 to include three more microinverters. Just pull that string out of the solis and put it into a Victron MPPT which is connected to the battery with appropriate switching and fusing. You can get Victron MPPT data into home assistant no problem. edit: I wouldn't change that single panel to a microinverter and leave the other two on the Solis - that will drop the string voltage even further for the remaining two and the MPPT may never start up.

[@EVPuzzle]

Brilliant comment , thank you 👍 It's those of us with a bit more experience, sharing , that makes a difference. I'm now wondering if the input voltage of one mppt helps the other fire up? Think I called it that those 3 panels are my most complex . A mirror on the neighbours wall would help 🤔 Your suggestion to go victron mppt interests me . Why would victron handle that shade issue better ? Just checked my solis is 60v startup and 50v-450v mppt. Panels Voc is 41v vmp 34v so 2 panels definitely ok on the mppt

[@VillageVidiot100]

@@EVPuzzle That's a nice low startup voltage on the solis. Given that it is as low as that, moving to a victron MPPT is unlikely to help (if it is a startup voltage problem). The victron startup voltage will be 5 volts higher than the battery voltage so pretty much identical to the solis at around 60V. I continue to think that you might have a startup voltage issue here though because of the steepness of the slope when the power comes in. Those panels don't appear to have a line across the middle so are likely to have 3 bypass diodes in them and three shading zones. That means that 2/3 of the voltage from the top panel is probably lost until the shading has gone because 2 of the bypass diodes will be active. Voltage rises pretty rapidly with the sun and the current comes up more gradually, but it is safe to say that early in the day you will have significantly lower than Voc and possibly less than Vmp as well so you might get 20V from 2 of the panels and 1/3 of that (6.6V) from the shaded one. Your total voltage might only be 46.6V for the string. You could prove or disprove this by graphing the voltage against the power. Even if you have to sit there and read it off the front panel every couple of mins one clear day this could be worth doing. If it does look like that is the issue then microinverters to all three panels is going to be the best way to solve it - that will be expensive though and it probably won't gain you very much. Last point: not all MPPTs are created equal and this can show up with shading issues. When things get funky with shading the maximum power curve can sometimes have more that one "knee" in it and a less advanced MPPT can lock onto a "knee" which is not the actual max power point. Some scan the curve less frequently or slower than others so might also take longer to get to the actual MP point when the shading goes away. I don't know how a solis MPPT works. The MPPTs should be separated from each other in the solis. You could prove that by disconnecting the higher voltage string and seeing if much changes.

[@justayoutubechannel7979]

Why is there no link for the solar panels please?

[@EVPuzzle]

These are Trina 410 all black panels but arent latest models , they were left over from an old install bought cheaply. There is no link for these

[@bordersw1239]

Are you starting to get to a point that the taxman might start to get interested in the money you make selling back to the grid?

[@EVPuzzle]

No , having read the rules on this I'm confident my system is no where near levels needed to declare as income HMRC aren't interested in taxing export , if they were it's be deducted at source with far less ambiguity

[@TassieEV]

Your title card has wrong units, a solar system isn't storing energy it's not a battery so it's not 5kWh or 22kWh it's 5kW or 22kW here I would not have expected that from the channel. Lucky Bjorn didn't see it he'd be having kittens and another rant video about kW vs kWh to add to the two he's already done.

[@EVPuzzle]

No no no no no , those PV panels are generating power over time , which is Kwh You don't have to store it for it to be KWh This is exactly what you can expect from my channel Sadly I expect more in the comments😣 If you're going to nit pick you really should get it right yourself 🤭😉🤣

[@user-hb9vh9tc7s]

@@EVPuzzleit is actually kWh not KWh or KWh. And to correct your error. Your title page is referring to the size of your array which is in kW. The amount of energy that these generate are kWh which is what you are discussing in your video

[@EVPuzzle]

@@user-hb9vh9tc7s I think I know what my thumbnail is referring to and it's KWH and is correct

[@chrisnortheast888]

@@user-hb9vh9tc7s Actually the title page isn't referring to the size of the array, it's referring to the energy produced during a recent day by the different arrays. It's the stats that he discusses at 22:11

[@TassieEV]

@@EVPuzzle Dude your title card someone looks at that and thinks you have a 9kWh solar system ANY Solar retailer/installer will look at that and shake their head. No wonder Bjorn has his rants due to this type of thing. I like your car reviews but not when you get your units wrong in the title card for a solar review. Unless your retailer sold it to you as a kWh system which is wrong to start with. Any system I've seen for sale is always kW!!! Now I'll leave the argument to others.