What Happened to Science Fiction?

[@DonaldCooper-te3di]

Science Fiction (and probably most ) genres need a new reboot. They all got dark and even that could be fun for a while but you're right, there needs to be hope, there needs to be heroes worth rooting for.

[@elliotkessler7271]

@@DonaldCooper-te3di I agree. As much as I enjoy some of the darker stories, I prefer if they have a good hero rather than morally-gray characters or antiheroes. That’s one of the biggest problems I have with modern speculative fiction.

[@DonaldCooper-te3di]

Very good video. All your points were spot on. There was an author, I think it was Jim butcher, who said message isn't bad, but never preach more than you entertain. As writers, we are entertainers first.

[@elliotkessler7271]

@@DonaldCooper-te3di I completely agree, and that’s something I’ve been learning recently. Frankly, the first two novellas in my Eorum Chronicles series are a little too preachy. I don’t think they’re bad, but I could have backed off on the theme just a bit and added to the entertainment factor instead. Thanks for sharing!

[@chiara9767]

So, I'm not a science fiction fan, but my dad is. And for his birthday, I wanted to gift him a science fiction novel, but there was literally no science fiction section in any of my local book stores. There was exactly one(1) shelf of science fiction books, but those were all young adult kinda books. And I think that tells a lot about the state of science fiction today. I ended up buying a crime mystery novel cuz I was out of time to order something online lol

[@elliotkessler7271]

@@chiara9767 yeah that’s what I’ve noticed too. I love space operas and space fantasies, but they’ve all become juvenile. Although, I have heard the Suneater series is really good.

[@DaleLanglois]

The Second Intelligent Species: The Cyclical Earth. Please give it a look. Sci-fi for the working guy.

[@elliotkessler7271]

@@DaleLanglois that looks very neat! Thank you so much for sharing! I’ll check it out.

[@arwenspicer]

Thanks for this video. I agree we need more utopia and less dystopia and more asking of questions with fewer didactic answers. I haven't experienced the same thing as you with Doctor Who, but to each their own. I wonder, in your analysis of Star Wars, are you including Andor? It has a definite anti-fascist message, but in the details it seems very open and questioning to me.

[@elliotkessler7271]

@@arwenspicer I was not including Andor. Andor is a phenomenal show that does remain pretty open, I agree. I’m very glad you’ve been able to enjoy modern Doctor Who! Honestly, I’m a little jealous lol. I guess it’s just a personal thing. Thank you for watching! It means the world!

[@promcheg]

My issues with modern science fiction is that there is little science in it. And I am including fictional science. Fictional, artificial concepts that behave and get handled like real science. Mostly they are handled as arbitrary, whatever needs for the story, deus ex plot hole plugs. Very little thought is invested into their impact on the (fictional) world.

[@elliotkessler7271]

@@promcheg this is very true. I am still a fan of space fantasy and such, but deus ex machinas are always super frustrating.

[@lauravsthepage]

Yes… nothing fills me with positivity for the future quite like the uplifting hero’s journey in Dune 🤣 Jokes aside I hear you regarding your criticism here, many big names in the genre has been taking itself too seriously and/or has been bought out by Disney… but I think saying that Sci Fi of the past didn’t focus a lot on dystopias and criticism of society and human nature is plain wrong.

[@elliotkessler7271]

@@lauravsthepage lol true😂 Thats a fair point. It’s not that they didn’t have their criticisms and such. Take H. G. Wells. He had a lot of criticisms of society and human nature. However, he didn’t use his works to complain. He used them to present problems and show how we might better take care of them or understand that. Heck, that’s what Frankenstein, the first science fiction novel, did. But I see a lot of other science fiction stories that complain and offer no solutions or demand that there is only one right answer. In either case, I find it irritating, not thought provoking.

[@MajesticNewEra]

Does anyone like anything anymore?

[@elliotkessler7271]

@@MajesticNewEra this is fair. There is a lot of complaining going around. Don’t get me wrong, I still love science fiction. But the big stories getting pushed haven’t been great. There are some smaller, lesser known novels and such that are still fantastic.

[@QuintiniusVerginix]

I find these kind of takes about Star Wars always incredibly funny. Star Wars didn't start to have a political message with the new movies and shows, Star Wars was from the start an incredibly political story. The entire concept behind the conflict of Star Wars (a small rebel force fighting a huge imperialist force that violently invades territories) was directly influenced by the Vietnam war, with the Galactic Empire being the United States and the Rebels being the Vietcong. The Empire is also incredibly Nazi-coded, which of course also isn't by accident. The message of the original Star Wars movies was very explictly political: big imperialist superpowers (like the United States) are evil and the people need to come together to stand up against them. You even see this in Return of the Jedi (which is the least politically charged of the OT) with the Ewoks. Like yeah, the Ewoks design is funky and clearly only that way because it's got nice toy potential for kids, but the whole idea of a weird, seemingly primitive, native tribe handidly beating an "superior" invading force is a very obvious political statement. And let's not even go into how badly the "Star Wars didn't have a clear social political message" statement holds up with the prequel trilogy lol. A trilogy of films filled with political debates and messages about how the Jedi are kinda awful at their jobs and let an evil dictator rise to power right under their noses because they were too busy justifying their own existence and let Anakin become Vader because they were too stuck in their own old traditions and rules to give him a proper education. If anything, the Disney stuff toned down on the political messaging of Star Wars* since, well, Stormtroopers and the Sith are cool now and them being very explicitly ruthless Nazi forces is bad for marketing potential. *except Andor, which is incidentally also the single best Star Wars thing since The Empire Strikes back and it's still pretty wild how something so explicitly political was able to pass through the Disney censors.

[@elliotkessler7271]

@@QuintiniusVerginix oh yeah. It was 100% political, and I never said it wasn’t. The difference between the old SW and new SW is the way it discusses it’s thematic material. The prequels showed how corruption can take root in people with the best intentions. The originals were about overcoming oppression against all odds and fighting against that corruption. The sequels were about what? Representation? Feminism? I completely agree with you. Star Wars and sci-fi in general has always been political. But where science fiction used to ask questions and discuss the many different solutions to different societal problems, it now tends to give one answer or none. I’ve read a lot of sci-fi that brings up problems and doesn’t try to present any solutions, which to me comes across as whiny. Or stories will present one solution as the only possible answer when that isn’t the case, which makes a story comes across as preachy. I’m fine with these stories being political and discussing these problems. But it’s the way they go about it that needs to change. Less pessimism, more optimism. I’m sorry it wasn’t super clear in the video, but this is the point I want trying to make lol.

[@QuintiniusVerginix]

@@elliotkessler7271 The sequels are still about that, though (almost to a fault, considering The Force Awakens takes a little too much from Star Wars/A New Hope). The themes are clearly still the same, combined with some new (for the movies) themes about learning from past mistakes and forging a new path and that everybody can tap into The Force and it's not just for the special few. (At least, until The Last Jedi got online backlash, Disney got cold feet and went 'No, actually...' on all those themes with The Rise of Skywalker). Notably these themes were not new for Star Wars, as some pre-Disney games and novels already went into this kind of stuff. As for representation and feminism... literally none of Star Wars is about that? Yes, the new Star Wars shows and movies contain a more diverse cast, which is 1) not a negative and 2) has nothing to do with the themes of the shows and movies, it's simply because mainstream Hollywood casting is more diverse these days as research have shown that if you cast more than primarily white guys in your films, people from different cultural backgrounds are more likely to see the films. The movies aren't about how diverse the cast these days is. As for feminism. Again, nothing in the new Star Wars films is explicitly about feminism. I feel like this point only comes up because of Rey and Holdo, which is weird, because it's Star Wars famously is one of the first blockbuster franchises who has a very prominent, strong female lead in Princess Leia, who leads the rebellion together with another female leader Mon Mothma. So from the very start the good factions in Star Wars (The Rebellion, The Resistance) have been led by women and yet, you hear nobody talking about that the original Star Wars films are 'about feminism'. Overall, I disagree with the point that scifi has become more preachy. Scifi has always had a very prominent societal element, both in film and books. Asimov was criticizing religion, imperialism and (technological) determinism in Foundation, Heinlein was writing military propaganda in Starship Troopers, Dune is all about the dangers of religion and the idea of 'great leaders'. These books also just portray societies where there are very clear issues with direct links to real issues in (then) modern society where they give a single solution as the best thing to do or give no solution but simply show that the way things were done is bad and will lead to ruin.The Foundation Trilogy is a great example of both of these where Seldon's predictions are originally shown as the solution to get society back on track after rampant imperialism destroyed it, yet the third novel completely deconstructs this as something that Seldon simply didn't account for happened and the Galactic society that was built from those plans is just completely destroyed as they have no response to this new threat. So yeah, I feel these kind of "preachy" scifi works have always been there, right alongside the more pulpy, adventure stuff and it still does. I mean, movies like Guardians of the Galaxy, Alien Romulus, Prey, The Wild Robot, Rebel Moon (lol) or No One Will Save You still exist. Those movies are just low-key scifi films that (except for that hot trash Rebel Moon) are simply very fun to watch and don't 'preach' any big moral lesson (most of them still have societal themes, but that's very hard to avoid within this specific genre).

[@elliotkessler7271]

@ first off, I just want to thank you for being so professional and keeping this discussion civil. Unfortunately, I don’t get that a lot when I discuss these ideas, so thank you so much. Also, your Rebel Moon comments are hilarious😂 Again, I totally agree that politics have always been a part of science fiction. Politics was never the topic I wanted to discuss in the video. But, continuing with Star Wars as the example, the way we’ve gone about discussing these ideas has changed dramatically. Where feminism is concerned, Leia is a brilliant character who is a natural leader, a brilliant politician, and a passionate fighter. Also, with modern SW, Jynn Erso is a fantastic character with an iron will, a strong heart, and determination. However, I feel the sequel trilogy fell into the trap of making Rey way too overpowered, which was a trend for female protagonists at the time. From how I saw it, I believe the trend had a lot of connections to the feminist movement. I’m not saying that’s a bad thing, but the trend was often handled lazily, as is the case in Disney SW with Rey and Holdo who, to me, come across as whiny, naturally amazing at everything, and always right. There was certainly preachy sci-fi back in the day, but most sci-fi felt more like opinions on a given topic rather than a lesson. Like the author was saying, “Here’s what I think about this. What do you think?” Let’s use Jurassic Park as an example. The question of that story (movie or book, take your pick) was whether humans should try to control nature or not. There are several different opinions, all represented by the main cast of characters. None of them are bad guys. Sure, they make mistakes and aren’t always the greatest people (*cough cough Hammond), but none of them are straight-up evil. But when it comes to modern science fiction, it seems to me that everyone in a story is either for or against something, and there’s no alternative. Either everyone agrees on one single answer to a question, or the people who disagree are evil. There’s no discussion. Only conflict. Like with Avatar. The movie is a take on naturalism versus industrialism. But it ends up boiling down to “Tree alien good, human bad.” That’s not interesting. But when you take a story like Princess Mononoke (not sci-fi, but it’s best used for this illustration), which is about the same conflict, you see the different sides of the conflict. There is no wrong answer. The conflict just happens. Now, I’m not saying that there should be no villains in sci-fi. By all means, bring on the Emperor and other cheesy, Flash Gordon, comic book villains. This isn’t really about villains at all. It’s about how to represent a theme in a narrative, which I just think modern science fiction does poorly for the most part. I hope this is making sense. I tend to get off track a lot😂

[@bigcubistman]

i can not be bothered to read old SF, because it is really out-of-date. (for example, isaac asimov's nuclear vacuum cleaners! brilliant in its day, but out-of-date now.) new SF is boring. no flair for science like asimov and arthur C clarke, too dark, no understanding of history like "dune".

[@elliotkessler7271]

@@bigcubistman I can understand that. However, I’m not sure if you’ve read 2001 by Clarke, but that’s some sci-fi I would highly recommend. Also Day of the Triffids, The Invisible Man, and War of the Worlds are all timeless. But yes, especially novels in the golden age of sci-fi are pretty dated. I enjoy Asimov’s robot novels, and some of the concepts are still interesting, but the characters are so shallow.

[@yoonahkang7384]

Its forbidden, too communist (sarcasm)

[@elliotkessler7271]

@@yoonahkang7384 lol it’s definitely not too communist. But there are a lot of authors who whine a lot instead of asking questions.