What I learned Ceramic Coating my Toyota 22RE Keith Black pistons using Cerakote V-139 Titanium Red

[@vg23air]

An added bonus of the titanium coating on the piston and heads, if you run E85 or nitrous, it prevents corrosion and pitting of the metal caused by these fuels. Properly applied the coating never wears off

[@vg23air]

the oven cure titanium is much more resistant to impact than the air dry.40/10 versus 120/120 for titanium.

[@poivre22]

Hi Ray, I might have missed this in the video, but are you running KB standard cast pistons or hypers? What is your piston to wall clearance? I had my engine recently rebuilt by a reputable engine manufacturer using Sealed Power cast pistons bored 20 over. They ran a 0.0020 piston to wall clearance. Unfortunately, it has a slight cold piston slap until it warms up. (It had much louder slap prior to the rebuild.) The slap is only present when the engine is lightly loaded. It did it before and after break in. Toyota’s spec in ‘87 FSM is 0.0008 to 0.0016 using OEM pistons. I think prior to ‘87 it’s up to 0.0020, so my 0.0020 clearance is probably ok. I’ve read that Toyota acknowledged piston slap on 22Rs back in the day and deemed it as a “characteristic”. I suspect many people have it but don’t notice or don’t care. Anyway, just poking around for info and thought I’d hit you up given your experience and love for the 22R. Does yours do it? Thanks, Bryan

[@ray5961]

Hi Bryan - yes, I'm running the higher silicon content hypereutectic pistons here, with a ceramic coating on the top. My piston to wall clearances are about .003 on average (specifically they were .0031/.0031/.0028/.0032) and this includes the anti-scuff coating on the side of the KB pistons. Without that, it would be more like almost .0038-ish on most of them there. My rods do not have the oil hole squirter deal on them, so at start up the cylinder walls are probably lacking a bit of oil initially. When I fire up the motor, I have noticeable piston slap (it used to sound like a diesel practically for a second or two). I'm very careful not to place the motor under any load for about the first minute or two. Since switching to Liqui Moly oil, the sound has gone way down. After my motor warms up for a couple of minutes, it's mostly gone. After driving a few blocks, it's normal. Compression is good and no blowby or oil consumption after several thousand miles, so the slapping I hear briefly in the morning isn't too much of a concern. On my motor, I just honed the cylinder walls and didn't want to bore the motor over beyond the previous owner's +.020" so all things considered, I'm happy with the piston to wall clearance and the behavior of the motor. Also, the ceramic coating on everything serves to prevent heat from getting down into the piston (for as rapid expansion at start up), so there's that. I think that is also part of what is giving me that initial 30 second slapping I hear, because the hypereutectic pistons tend to be closer to forged pistons in that respect that cast ones that expand right away with any heat at all.

[@poivre22]

@@ray5961 On rare occasions, I get the loud 2 second slap (or maybe loud cam noise?) at startup that you are talking about. It sounds like 10 or so very loud "ticks". But I always have light piston slap under engine load until the engine warms up after a few minutes, then it goes quiet. Prior to the rebuild, it sounded like diesel until it warmed up, so there was definitely an improvement. I'm not too concerned about it, but I was just hoping that I would have a dead quiet engine after the rebuild......but then again, this is a 22R. 😀 Everything else is good (compression, leaks, clean oil, blowby, etc). I might give the Liqui-Moly a whirl. What specific flavor and viscosity of Liqui-moly are you using? Thank you for your detailed (and prompt!) feedback.

[@ray5961]

@@poivre22 Yeah, perfectly quiet 22R motor... sign me up also haha. Here's the oil I'm running: www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00CPL952G/ - 10W40 because my connecting rod bearing clearances are at .0025 - which is sort of the dividing line between 30 vs 40 weight oil, but I opted to go slightly thicker for more protection. I also run 8 oz of Lucas ZDDP, which between the Moly oil and the 8 oz of ZDDP gives around 4300 PPM of Zinc, which the 22R's require. Takes the oil about 500 miles or so to start to really smooth things down. Give it a shot and let me know what sort of results you see over there. I also run a magnetic drain plug; check the top 10 upgrades video on my channel and the link is in the description for the steel one I run here.

[@poivre22]

@@ray5961 ​ At 500 miles, I replaced the Amsoil mineral break-in with Castrol 10W-30 dino oil and Rislone ZDDP additive. I have about 1000 miles on it now. At around 2000, I'll give Liqui-Moly a shot. I'll stick with 10W-30 as my bearing clearances are around 0.0015, and it gets cold in MT (though I don't drive it much in the winter). I will also look into a mag plug. Thanks again for the info. You are awesome!

[@ray5961]

@@poivre22 For sure, you're most welcome. And yeah, if your bearing clearances are .0015, I would stick with 30 weight also.

[@vg23air]

Low Thermal Emissivity is coating to reflect heat away from the piston, and there is also High Thermal Emissivity which SINKS HEAT, I am using that on the outside of my aircooled block and heads to remove engine heat. ARCTIC BLACK (OVEN CURE) P-202

[@ray5961]

Nice... I'll check that out. Love Cerakote products.

[@goutvols103]

Was there an issue with applying too much ceramic coating where you run into the piston hitting the top of the heads or does the sand blasting take off enough metal to allow for equal thickness to be reapplied?

[@ray5961]

the head gasket thickness provides plenty of insurance. The Cerakote itself is very thin and some amount does lay down into the rough blasted area.

[@kczbluesman]

Couple of cam thoughts Your 110 degree LSA is good if you have pro ported or otherwise real nice flowing heads. Otherwise 107 degrees would be a little better. The 102 intake centerline may sound like a lot of advance - which means advancing the cam, not retarding - might serve you well, giving a strong low and midrange output, by sacrificing a little peak rpm power. There is some error in the 237 advertised and 216 @.050" shown on the paperwork. We don't see opening and closing ramps that aggressive/short.

[@ray5961]

Thanks for the information. I am running a ported head with larger valves and also a very free flowing exhaust. Running the cam retarded 5.5 degrees definitely makes the truck more enjoyable to drive and provides quite a bit more power and breathing when using this particular camshaft from Web Cams.

[@autonomous_collective]

Hilarious.... You are supposed to remove the tape after painting, which means BEFORE HEATING.

[@ray5961]

Yeah, I think I might try that next time around.

[@vg23air]

nope, use the right tape, Cerakote HIGH HEAT TAPE Item: SE-340

[@BentonL]

I would be interested to see how the coating held up when you pull the head. I looked through you vids, but I guess you have not had a reason to do a tear down on it yet. I just discovered this awesome product a few months ago. I am putting this on all sorts of things. Crazy hard, slick, durable finish from what I am seeing. My manifold gets red hot and this stuff still looks like the day I applied it. What ever dirt does get on this stuff comes off easy.

[@ray5961]

Yeah, it's good stuff. As near as I can see, it's still holding on there (when using the bore scope). It's covered up with carbon, but as far as I can tell it's still looking good. I don't know when I would be pulling the head off again, but when/if I do, I will clean things up and see how the cerakote is holding up for sure.

[@vg23air]

the coating never wears off

[@martindworak]

Why didn’t you just remove the blue 3M tape before baking the pistons? I’m sure the cerakote wouldn’t drip down the pistons while baking, assuming it was applied correctly. The silicon tape was totally unnecessary, especially during the baking process. For anyone who wants to mask a piston and bake it with the masking tape on it, use Kapton tape, it’s a silicone polyamide tape that can resist very high temps without melting, or hardening, it’s very common in electronics, and aerospace industries. BTW, the orange silicone/fiberglass insulation is usually called a “fire sleeve”, it’s the last line of defense for electrical circuits in extremely high heat applications like rockets.

[@ray5961]

Yeah, I think that would have been a better way to go also. Mask with blue 3M tape, spray them, let them sit for 15 minutes, then remove the 3M tape and bake them. I'll check out the Kapton tape; thanks for the tip!

[@vg23air]

Cerakote HIGH HEAT TAPE Item: SE-340

[@chefrobertcaldas]

hey ray what benefits does that cerakote make? is it over kill for this type of engine? an why not just take the block to a machine shop and build it on engine stand? just curious

[@ray5961]

Both very valid questions haha. I don't think the ceramic coating process is too much overkill. It's definitely a luxury item though. The main benefits should be cleaner chambers, better thermal efficiency, cooler running engine, slightly better gas mileage (perhaps), better ability to withstand detonation, etc. All those things are beneficial to any motor, big or small / high performance or stock. So while it is a lot of work for the likes of a 22RE motor, I do think it will be worthwhile. Time will tell. As far as pulling the motor and doing all this on a motor stand, yes, that would be easier. However, because this motor only needs to last a few more years, I opted to take this route, since it allows me to work with the existing block. Aside from the small gouge near the top of cylinder #2, the block itself (and the bores) are in totally fine condition for a refresh. We will know soon enough how this all comes together. Stay tuned!

[@chefrobertcaldas]

@@ray5961 super cool keep those vids coming cant wait to see it running!

[@ray5961]

@@chefrobertcaldas Thank you man... it's getting there. I should have the pistons in the block tomorrow if all goes well over here.

[@wil8115]

any updates on how this runs?

[@ray5961]

Yeah it's running well, I will say that the ceramic coating seems to delay the pistons coming up to temperature and expanding especially since they're hypereutectic, so I have to be a little careful when I initially warm the truck up but other than that everything runs great

[@jtaylor-fi5bd]

Have A 1990 P/U TOY. want to rebuild engine have had no luck with local rebuilders on other truck what would you recommend? do you rebuild engines?

[@ray5961]

You might check with some place like LC Engineering or 22RE performance and see if they can offer some suggestions and/or maybe you could ship parts to them. I do rebuild motors, but only my own personal stuff.

[@jtaylor-fi5bd]

@@ray5961 yes LCE will do it but 4 month waiting list and must ship block at 700.00 dollar ship charge

[@ray5961]

@@jtaylor-fi5bd Yeah, last time I talked to them, they mentioned a shortage of 22RE engine blocks was causing delays. Shipping is a hassle for sure. It's almost worth a road trip to AZ :) Almost.

[@jtaylor-fi5bd]

I live in tx do you think there engines are so great it's worth driving my engine block all the way over there rather than having it done local?

[@ray5961]

@@jtaylor-fi5bd I think if you can find a good local machinist, then local should be fine. The problem is that a lot of the good ol' timers who really know their business when it comes to stuff like operating Sunnen equipment are tending to retire. Even our once main local shop - which did just about everyone's engine work - can't find anyone to work their equipment in the back. When it comes to stuff like re-grinding crankshafts or boring cylinders, your margin of error is generally .0001 or .0002 tops. That's 10th of an inch, not thousands. So you really have to know what you are doing.. not only what you are doing, but how to measure those tolerances properly and how to calibrate the machines and double check. At those levels of precision, even the heat from your hand or the draft from an open shop door can start to have implications on accuracy. Back in the 50's or 60's or even the 80's, cars required rebuilding all the time, so you had plenty of engine and machine shops keeping everyone on the road. With today's manufacturing, most people buy cars, drive them 100K miles and then just replace them (more or less). So it's not exactly the same as it was before. Where are you located? Can you find any local old time autoparts places? I'm not talking about AutoZone w/ a bunch of 20 year olds. You need to find an out of the way auto parts store that has been in business 40 years.. then go talk to the old guys behind the counter and ask them who does good engine building/machining in town. They should know the story. What exactly are you planning to do here? Re-bore the cylinders and deck the block? When you start to get into stuff like boring the mains or grinding the crankshaft or re-sizing the rods, that's when it starts to get a little tricky. If there any possibility of just doing an engine refresh here? Also, are you going to be doing the re-assembly or are you looking for someone to delivery a turn key engine and you throw the cylinder head on? On my motor, for example, I checked the block and crank using micrometers and a very accurate dial bore gauge and found that it was all still relatively within tolerances; by going with KB pistons that have a .0005" addition to the skirt, I was able to get away with just honing the block out. Same w/ the crankshaft... journals were all largely within spec. I had to buy new connecting rods and swap some bearing shells around, but I was able to get everything to .0025" on the big ends. For $700 and the hassles, I think I'd look far and wide locally.

[@chrisd7664]

looking good!

[@ray5961]

Thanks Chris! It's getting there