WHAT IF LION EL'JONSON WAS AT ISSTVAN? HOW IT WAS POSSIBLE!

[@randyruger9063]

Another thought: The Lion would have the best, clearest mind to mount an offense. Everyone loves Vuclan and Corvus, but Ferrus was obviously the best man to lead the job of the defense UNTIL he lost his shit at Fulgrim, then every decision became tainted by anger. Lion will get a lot more value out of each individual. It would still be a brutal encounter, but it would be known as the "Drop Site Battle" rather than the "Drop Site Massacre"

[@skepticalsnek9989]

Jonson and his option of warp-shells for everything? With his psychic flamethrowers and mind-viruses? Jonson with his shackled Men of Iron? That Jonson?

[@TKUltra971]

Lion'el "Delete & Burn the battle reports" Johnson?? 🤣

[@Nyctophora]

Lion el "Tuchulcha Engine takes me anywhere, anywhen" Jonson?

[@release_the_Diddy_list]

Lion’el “Geneva? Never heard of her,” Jonson

[@TKUltra971]

Lion'el "Helping clear your head" Johnson

[@GaIvatr0n]

Lion'el "Grew up alone on a chaos death world" Johnson?

[@BrandonWard-oj3yh]

I feel like the lion would have been to paranoid in regards to which legions where still loyal. I imagine him taking his small force and going straight for Horus The 30k dark angles are very clandestine.

[@peterusmc20]

Yeah if he thinks guilleman might be traitor when he arrives at ultramar then I doubt he trusts the others completely.

[@mattruecker5861]

The Heresy would have been a lot shorter if he'd been there.

[@gshoots4357]

nah, not with the small size force he took to diamat

[@grayfullbuster1242]

​@gshoots4357 bruh he had Dark Age tech. With 12 men of iron would solo the entire 3 legions

[@gshoots4357]

@@grayfullbuster1242 you didn't read the book did you? he only took a company sized force to diamat and considering they were very close to being wiped out by the sons of horus counter attack what you're saying is ridiculous, his small fleet was damaged in orbit and any dark angel tech was left with his main fleet in a whole different system.

[@denniskrust2137]

Shorter and more likely to have succeeded. Four Legions destroyed instead of three.

[@Kristian.B.Kristiansen]

​@@grayfullbuster1242 Lol. Konrad Curze soloed multiple of them at once!

[@guilherme5094]

The Lion: Drop all the bombs. Peter Parker Turbo: That's so cute, drop all the bombs.

[@GardensAndGames]

It depends on what Fleet assets the Lion would have with him, and when he arrived. If he had arrived later with The Invincible Reason, he could have taken on the traitor fleet, allowing Vulkan to escape imprisonment by Curze. If The Lion arrived early enough to coordinate the attack with the other loyalists, He probably would have still been on the planet and gotten nuked alongside Vulkan. Would The Lion have survived a nuking? Probably not.

[@grayfullbuster1242]

Lion would Solo at Istavan. Dark Age tech, Dreadwing Men of Iron. Heck it will Catch his brothers by surprise as well. Since only him and the emperor knew about Lion arsenal

[@grayfullbuster1242]

For the People defending the traitor primarchs. Young Lion was the Black force Energy. He was Him. He was the one who knocks. He would literally just condem the entire planet without giving two thoughts. The lion didn't care for bringing in traitors alive. He just literally wanted to end the heresy as quick as possible. He was willing to bombar Macrage ant other planet that declared loyalty to Horus Heck Even Horus was Scared of Him and this is why. He sent the Lion to the outer rims. To get the news later. Lion would of Solo all 3 legions

[@Kristian.B.Kristiansen]

​@@grayfullbuster1242this is simply not true to lore.

[@yoooo790]

​@Kristian.B.Kristiansen, what part isn't true? Horus knew what kind of problem the lion was. So again. Elaborate on what you're talking about.

[@peterusmc20]

I think its true that horus considered guilleman and the lion as the realest threats at the start of the heresy and the legions he wished to avoid fighting for as long as possible. This is clear in how he laid out his battle plans and where he sent what legion beforehand. Either legion being at full force at istvan could have changed the entire course of the heresy and probably caused a stalemate with heavy losses or a retreat to change plan from horus. But like the lion said it would take the legion too long to get to Istvan, just the lion and a vanguard there could have changed some things but would not have even been able to turn the battle let alone manage to slay horus there. I think its more the dark angels and their technology and the raw size of the ultramarines along with the lion and guilleman as generals that he wished to avoid as opposed to single combatants. I'd say as much that if he thought he had some way to get either onto istvan in an attempt to decapitate the legions horus would have jumped at the chance. Even before his communion with chaos I would not put lion above horus in a one on one (probably a very even fight likely leaning horus) and as we saw with corvus corax, who far outclassed lorgar, it's even less likely that lion would be able to finish the fight before another traitor would intervene at which point I'd say the fight is unwinnable for the lion even if he does solo Horus.

[@grayfullbuster1242]

@Kristian.B.Kristiansen Horus biggest Forge world got taken out by 12 Men or Iron. Only 12. Imagine those 12 in Ishvan. NO LEGION I mean, no legion would have survive. Since the Forge world was filled with titan legions and they all got wipe by the Men of Iron. 3 -4 legions would be fodder

[@theonerob8870]

There would have been War Crimes

[@WhiteIkiryo-yt2it]

There are no war crimes against heretics.

[@chuck2703]

Hard to say. He was an amazing strategist that even Guilliman looked up to, but in the heresy, he couldn't read the room. He could have tempered Ferrus and put a halt to a surprise attack from the reinforcements but he could have also held off due to paranoia. So a guerilla campaign that would've gridlock the heresy buying enough time for Guilliman, Russ and Sanguinius to capture/slay Horus. OR He'd die on Istivan like Ferrus since Vulcan was immortal and Corax barely escaped.

[@browniechann88blackie55]

Wolf lord rho video on my birthday 🎂 heck yes 🎉

[@Cornerboy73]

Happy birthday 🎂

[@Nyctophora]

Happy birthday!

[@guilherme5094]

Happy Birthday!

[@stormlord819]

Lets be real, he would have just destroyed the planet.

[@raftguy1376]

Yeah. Exterminatus from space. Then mop up the fleet

[@release_the_Diddy_list]

Can’t go to ground if there’s no ground. 🧠

[@Pyromaniac77777]

"Over my dead body!" -Ferrus

[@yoooo790]

Oh, the system. No chill heretics, and for my brothers, a noble sacrifice.

[@Scheisskopf79]

You say that like it's a bad thing

[@dr.rotwang]

The one tactic not considered. The Dark Angels even then were know for their Veteran teleport assaults. Decapitating the enemy leadership. The Lion and a cadre of veterans, possibly even Deathwing, attacking that way would cost the traitors Fulgrim for sure. Depending on who is where and when, possibly another traitor primarch, maybe even Horus. Drastically altering the trajectory of the Heresy.

[@lonniedoyle2274]

True but Horus wanted none of The Lion... hence why he trapped him away from isstvan . i think that he was the one he never wanted to see within striking distance. Dark Angels had the best war gear. Dropping his men of iron would likely have been his fist move , if not virus bombing from orbit and never making planet fall chasing the traitors.

[@peterusmc20]

If he managed to take out peturabo in particular it's hard to imagine how the approach too terra and the siege would play out.

[@blacklanner5886]

The Horus Hot Take: 20 Minute Adventure.

[@MoraqVos]

Nothing would change because the story requires Ferrus to die, while the others must survive with great losses.

[@fixedG]

So this is one of those galactic proximity things like Nuceria actually being super close to Macragge, making it feasible that Guilleman and Ultramar could have discovered and liberated Angron's whole planet before the latter's ill-fated abduction by the Emperor. Everything could have been different and it was very close to being so.

[@marsmech]

If he was on the ground i assume Conrad would of seeked him out and Covis would of killed Logar. For story reasons i also assume his forest walking powers would activate getting him and most of his legion out(again for story reasons).

[@davidmacon1138]

Oh his Mary Sue plot armor powers that only appeared in this new book? Probably.

[@Kristian.B.Kristiansen]

In your scenario, there could be no escape for the Lion and Ferrus. Even with Fulgrim's death, they would be deep in the enemy lines and right in the path of Horus's personal final assault. They wouldn't have survived.

[@Nyctophora]

Considering that if Lion had the Tuchulcha Engine at that time, getting there was simple for him, yes, I do think he could have made a difference. I haven't seen real evidence of his tactical genius (a limitation of the writing, possibly - I certainly don't have that experience to draw from) but we are told he's the best. So we must take his decision as a calculated one, rather than foolishness. In fact, this is the best support for the old (discarded?) idea that Lion waited to see who would win before he picked a side. He conspicuously managed to miss _both_ Istvaans and the Seige of Terra, too.

[@GideonWallace]

If the Lion was there, Fulgrim would have been finished. The Lion defeated every single brother of his and simulated combat, and Demon Angron after a 10,000-year nap. He would have deployed everything in his Arsenal. Including the Excindio Men of Iron. If some how here where there.

[@lionheartfilms793]

Well a pale scrawny schizophrenic nearly killed him twice but keep telling yourself the Lion is undefeated. Angron has also cannonically lost to every primarch he's ever faced pre, and post ascension; so that's not really the flex you think it is. There was also the crippled mortal who put him into said coma for 10k years. People talk about how strong the lion is but how many tries did it take to beat Kurze in a fight? A fight Kurze probably threw in order to break apart Imperium secundus and turn his brothers against each other anyways. Isn't it odd how through the whole trial Kurze just acted like he was exactly where he wanted to be laughing maniacally while insulting his brothers? Almost like he was getting exactly what he wanted, a chance to speak to all three and spell out their own hypocrisy.

[@Scheisskopf79]

Well also remember that the Lion is a master strategist and a beast in combat, his sons were ruthless, and he carried war crime level weapons for that universe. If he had shown up he probably would have brought party favors and put some serious pain down on the traitors

[@g1la12]

He woulda clutched it

[@peterusmc20]

Lmao I love the idea of ferrus on the coms shouting at him to clutch it.

[@AROBASPARK]

Manus was the leader in command on the retribution force on Isstvan - therefor, Lion El would had reminded Manus his priority would had been Horus. Whether Manus would have listen to Lion El, one of the more difficult to like Brothers, that's another thing.

[@akirby2886]

I think the lion may have seen through Horus’s strategy with the reinforcements and the lion could beat any of the traitor Primarchs one on one given the chance. As for saving Ferrus? I’d like to think so, I think Ferrus got a raw deal. 😕

[@monkeyswithshoes308]

That Paranoid mofo? The Vaults of Dark Age tech would have been flung wide open. He would have disintegrated every planet and then killed the sun.

[@huntergallatin6758]

So like what if Horus decided he needed to go big or go home, Johnson, Russ, and Sanguinius? My money is on the meanest 3 in the galaxy. Imagine what Sanguinius would look like watching his sons get slaughtered knowing there is no hope

[@peterusmc20]

Ngl I think if fulgrim and ferrus had died on Istvan the traitors might have won. I think horus might take direct control over the Emperor's children having better control over a legion and keeping them more on course and useful. Fulgrim himself does little useful in the later parts of the heresy but notably no fulgrim means no injured perturabo and one that is less likely to quit the siege imo. Especially if this also meant that the lion wasn't doing the other things he would have done or was delayed on his return to his legion or injured.

[@46dbennett]

Love the video idea. You should do a what if Corax went to beta Garmin to join the seige instead of going to save Leman Russ. As for this video 100% the lion is taking one brother's life most likely being Fulgrim like you said but I think it would have been a 2 v 1 against Fulgrim. The loyalist sons would definitely come off better as well but if they didn't I think the sons of the lion would do the unthinkable and destroy the planet killing everyone I can see the Lion giving that command to the fleet before going to the surface.

[@TKUltra971]

You know. He would have just started taking a body count. Out of all of the Emperor's sons, the Lion wouldn't hesitate to turn his blades on a brother if the situation called for it. The events of the Unremembered Empire is proof of that. The dude was just going off of SUSPCISION and had a legion at his back. But then again he just got done dealing with the NLs legion and the legendary trolling of Curze.

[@randyruger9063]

If Sanguineous can solo armies and still have juice for a duel against Horus, i have no doubt the Lion could do the same.

[@huntergallatin6758]

Well let's see, he's a massive near godlike animal pretending to be a knight.... And you want to corner him?!? No the only way to fight a lion is if it can see an exit, or make sure it can't move.

[@elrodrigo4102]

There is a good reason why Horus went through the trouble of sending El' Johnson away!

[@thatotherguy8138]

If the Lion was at Isstvan, the defenders would have acted differently - they would have baited the Lion into delaying actions. Quite likely Horus would have taken to the field to draw the Lion to him, for example, dividing the Iron Hands and Dark Angels, instead of allowing the Lion and Ferrus to attack Fulgrim together. Or at the very least, sending Mortarion or Angron in to help Fulgrim instead of letting him go 1v2. Likely three Primarchs would have been lost there instead of two - Corvus would have escaped, but I could easily see the Lion and Ferrus BOTH dying. (assuming no Narrative fickery-wuckery that needed the Lion to survive - if that were needed, then I'd have the Lion accidentally develop his Forest Walk ability and get lost for most of the Heresy, only to show up on Macragge at the appointed time)

[@ryano7340]

What would’ve happened if he accompanied the iron Warriors? To ensure his brothers loyalty, at this point 3 brothers have declared traitor I don’t see it unreasonable for the lion to want to stick beside the Lord of iron to make sure he stays loyal.

[@FullMetalElric]

Depends. Lion has no plot armour, he has plot autism. Basically, does the author remember the BS that they came up with when trying to make the Lion's defeats seem plausible.

[@adams5613]

Hindsight Perturabo says, Yes.

[@jeremyparker7423]

The Lion would have been able to easily assess that if Rogal's force had been fully loyal, there would be no path to victory for Horus, and he would know that Horus would not have done this without a way to win. So he would have anticipated some kind of trap and planned accordingly. How that would have changed things...who could say, but I dont think it would have ended up being called the Drop Site Massacre.

[@JagoSevitar]

He would have regretted giving Perty those bombs 😂

[@travisspringemann1110]

So it would really depend on what the Lion wanted his force to do and what ships the Lion took with him. If he decided to take the leadership and command structure then he could bring the Firewing or he could bring the Dreadwing to maximize he damage output. If the Lion also took his flagship then he could have dropped his men of iron when the betrayal happened which would help his withdrawal from combat.

[@marshaledrek71]

But in the situation you frame, he would have been dead at the end, or like Corax, survived barely.

[@alexlavipera7134]

Lorgar and Night Haunter instantly kicked in the ass by Lion just because he didn’t trust them, then all the others, loyalists included!

[@Kristian.B.Kristiansen]

He would have died. Killed or driven away. The numbers are overwhelming and decisive.

[@Truegrade]

Loving all this Lion love!

[@Chris-et2fm]

Tanagra? Dathon and Picard at El Adrel?

[@timothylyons5686]

Perturabo would have introduced the Lion to his forbidden weapons.

[@bingbongID]

If i remember right the secret traitors didnt intermingle with the 3 loyalists before the assault. If the Lion was there, with him being the untrusting apex predator, that would have immediately made him suspicious. I dont think the assault ever happens most likely nukes the planet destroys the fleets and/or waits for Dorns retribution fleet and other reinforcements

[@Sugarierspoon99]

He'll ferrus alone nearly crushed the traitors because his allies and thier legions weren't made at all for those types of battles although the salamanders did pretty well the raven guard less so. Fulgrim only beat ferrus because every circumstance uncontrollable by ferrus was agianst him and it was close so if you add the lion and even afew thousand elite dark angles along with ferrus would cripple the emperors children and Fulgrim wouldn't last 30 seconds in a 2 vs 1 agianst ferrus who is the strongest primarch and great fighter and lion an even better fighter even with minor chaos impowerment. I wouldn't doubt that ferrus and the lion could both get out because the emperors children are almost all dead probably world eaters are at like 1/4 strength as it is said after istvaan 3 they are at 1/2 strength. You have around probably 2/3 of the iron hands left at this point aswell as afew thousand dark angles vs probably 40% of the death guard remaining after fighting on istvaan 3 and 5 aswell as probably around 50% or abit more after the same battles. The salamanders would probably be slaughtered but they even did hold for abit agianst the iron warriors and night lords. The raven guard in our timeline beat the word bearers until the night lords arrived and I have no clue what the alpha legion did I forgot but I'm pretty sure they would be pretty far from ferrus and the lion. The loss of extra marines to take out fulgrim and save ferrus mannus aswell as probably 30% - 50% of the iron hands mabey even more is easily worth it because thousands of more astartes wich we're some of the best, ferrus mannus who was seen to be one of the best strategist and logisticians of all of the primarchs according to horus and gulliman and I'm pretty sure the emperor said something about that aswell. If half of the iron hands getting out sounds crazy to you should remember more iron hands around 15% of the legion got out despite needing to fight through the most to escape and not having a primarch so imagine if they had 2 primarchs and elite dark angles to help them aswell with an open path through the broken emperors children. Edit: I know that i made some mistakes with the dark angles numbers but still you wouldn't wanna fuck with a dark angle

[@Jenartik]

Curze: "Nah, I'd win."

[@Nyctophora]

Well, he knows he doesn't die ...

[@gshoots4357]

wouldn't of changed much imo, if it wasn't for hooking up the dreadnought to the siege weapon the dark angels force would of been wiped out by the sons of horus counter attack alone and that was only a fraction of horus's legion

[@mattruecker5861]

Legitimate question that is NOT touched on by Rho... is the Invincible Reason present? It's not talked about often but that flagship is second only to the Emperors personal 2 ships. The Phalanx is its own kettle of fish... but the I.R. could have been a legitimate factor in having an loyalist presence in orbit...i do not think that the I.R. could win vs the traitors combined fleet but it would be a SUBSTANTIAL factor in the void war

[@bbdf21]

He would have clutched the 4v8

[@bleekskaduwee6762]

I don't think that the Dark Angel s force would have been that small considering they were the 2nd largest legion. The Lion definitely would have smoked Fulgrim

[@otaku1and1harem1god]

I think it would be funny af if the lion did kill Fulgrim and got away but Ferris still died and the Iron hands deiced lions there new boss almost ork style and then the lion has that headache to deal with

[@md-sl1io]

if the lion was at istvaan he would have seen the betrayal coming and he would have retreated his troops to orbit before it happened and exterminated the planet from orbit

[@senorsuave]

If the Lion was at istvaan, then Fulgrim's primarch body count would be 3

[@davidmacon1138]

Fulgrim and Curze taking their.... grief out on The Lion.

[@Nyctophora]

Two and three quarters really :p

[@MrCookedPorkchop]

The victory against the rebels at the time. Was to a symbolic victory. Setting up extermination of the world could be done but it isn’t symbolic same way why the emperor didn’t just pull a dark age weapon and zap the ship out of space or so. Horus did what he did with the decency e because he knew key players such as the Lion and Guilliman were not who he was facing. If the Lion was deployed I’m sure Horus would have acted differently of course he would. Though I believe it is still likely 1-2 primarchs would have been lost as a result if they can take out the Lion at the cost of say, Fulgrim or angron then it’d be worth because it’s the Lion. We don’t know the full capabilities of Ferrus minus off hand and third party comments. But there isn’t much to show what Ferrus could been truely capable of lore wise. Horus absolutely would have played to the Lions weaknesses and draw him out into a more favorable position. If the Darkangles would attempt a deep strike I’m sure there would have been a contingency for that. Remember he fooled and got the Emperor of all people to believe he, Horus lost his mind and appear weak by which the emperor took the bait and only then realized the gravity of the situation. This is also still factoring in the betrayal of the additional legions and possible internal factions of the DA going rouge and betraying the DA sooner. If Lion were to survive his paranoia would have been amplified even higher and possibly been more of an issue for the loyalists. If he died in battle it would be yet equally another devistating loss.

[@davidmacon1138]

If the Lion did ANYTHING, it would be more plot armor and nothing really else

[@SeaBass215AM]

The Lion and Perturabo would be locked into a void battle. Perturabo would have nuked Johnson instead of Vulkan. Maybe both. Or the Lion blows up the planet with his loyal and traitor brothers on it.

[@Ravengagepvl]

If the Lion was at Istvaan the Lion would have died at Istvaan. 8 legions beat 4 almost as easily as they beat 3.

[@SirGalahad_GrailHunter]

There is the possible outcome that it gets worse. The Lion strategically strikes at Horus. Horus being surprised and facing a murderous Lion would flee, in doing so to further strengthen victory and cripple the loyalist legions, would have looked to bombard the planet and kill everyone. Giving swift orders to pull out, the Alpha Legion and Word Bearers would be gone in a shot. Fulgrim would be trying to convince Manus to join him and feel the threat from Horus over stated. Curze would be hunting, knowing his death would come much later, we therefore lose Manus, Fulgrim, Curze, Corax, Mortarian, Angron, Vulcan remains MIA. Perturabo is questionable, given the chip on his shoulder, he may stay or retreat, knowing the action Horus intends. Meanwhile Horus does a fighting retreat hounded by the Lion, who would eventually be caught by Horus superior numbers. Now the heresy is left with little Primarchs, but Horus has greater control over the traitor legions remaining troops.

[@SirGalahad_GrailHunter]

That's my two cents what if for this hypothetical. How the rest places out from here, is another hypothetical debate.

[@JZ0UK]

But why would he have intervened to help the loyalists? *Trollface*

[@Nyctophora]

Instead of his friend Perturabo?

[@horusksa1983]

It would have still been a massacre, for the traitors

[@robertstrachan3482]

Istvaan? Isstvan?

[@UncleMikeDrop]

EVERYTHING about Isstvan V was stupid.

[@Kristian.B.Kristiansen]

Anyone claiming anything other than the fall of the Lion and destruction of whatever force he had with him.... is foolish! Even in the impossible event of him bringing his entire Legion... it would just have been 8 vs 4. Total defeat.

[@Darkflame1423]

How long did it take for the other legions to get their because you'd also have to account for the fact since theirs another primarch with around 1k spacemarines (some of the best imo)they'd get father much sooner

[@denniskrust2137]

If the Lion was at Istavan....four Legions would have been destroyed.