What If Our Democracy Can’t Survive Without Christianity?

[@atlerthedark3639]

Always amazing to hear people say "I'm not a Christian, but here's what you Christians should do and believe."

[@OldSchoolSk8ermatt]

@@atlerthedark3639 it’s pretty easy to know the words of Jesus and see people NOT loving their neighbor, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, giving all of their belongings to charity etc. We call that hypocrisy.

[@jennysteves]

“The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found difficult and left untried.” - G K Chesterton

[@Bill_Garthright]

Ask a different Christian what the "Christian ideal" is, get a different answer. :)

[@sfkeepay]

What If Our Democracy Can’t Survive Without Worship of Our One True God, Baal?

[@bakedbean37]

I'm ever so sorry but I'm afraid that capitalizing every word doth not make Baal any more powerful than the all powerful monster of flying spaghetti. May his noodly appendages bestow blessings upon thee however.

[@courtneybrown6204]

What if our Democracy can't survive monotheism, without the return of Asherah to her rightful place next to Yahweh?

[@bakedbean37]

@@courtneybrown6204 " her rightful place" Last I heard she was getting stoned beyond yonder city wall.

[@jonmeador8637]

For a no-holds barred assault on the American form of christianity read Frederick Douglass' "Appendix." He nails it!

[@Phlegethon]

What a clickbait title what were the Greeks doing

[@merlintym1928]

Their democracy didn't exactly survive, did it?

[@brandon.mullins]

Institutionalized pedophilia and near constant war.

[@brandon.mullins]

Dominion by Tom Holland is a good read on this subject.

[@S62r]

And how long did that last?

[@guydreamr]

@@merlintym1928Both India and Japan have been democracies for decades and are still going strong.

[@dougwalsh9282]

This piece suggests that a secular constitutional democratic republic can thrive with Christians embracing Jesus's core lessons of love, faith (courage) and forgiveness. I'm all in.

[@logic_rules]

The thing is Christianity is not all about all that. And it cannot be NOT all about that. People believe in a religion not for those purposes. It is against human nature to believe in a religion for those purposes. Religions are there to tell you how the real world works. When they see the real world does not match their religion, the religious always want to destroy the real world instead of admitting that what it says in their holy book is just a baloney sandwich. That's why they care about oppressing trans people almost 1000th of the population more than forgiveness. Human brain works that way. They have to hate something to glue their community. What this guy is saying is a utopia. It cannot happen. Religions has disappear for humanity to have peace. There is no other way.

[@OldSchoolSk8ermatt]

Yeah and when that happens, I’ll give it a maybe. But it hasn’t and likely won’t ever. Following the teachings of Jesus is hard. Being self righteous is easy and feels good

[@dangavel1283]

But lets face it , US christians ARENT going to do that are they ? There's virtually NO evidence that love and forgiveness even exists in huge segments of that community.

[@dougwalsh9282]

Precisely! The hardest life journey is to love your neighbor as you love yourself and come to know, love and serve God with all your heart, strength, mind anď soul.​ The reward is salvation. All of us are called to make the effort.

[@S62r]

Except without actual faith people won’t be motivated to do the hard work of developing those attributes. It’s like expecting people to get a phd level education from informal home study watching KZbin videos

[@MrAmazingest]

As a former member of the LDS Church, I was dismayed to hear Rauch praise the organization, and Pres. Dallin H. Oaks specifically, for accomodation and compromise on gay rights without mentioning the Church's very recent history of legislating homophobia. Only after facing member and societal backlash to its naked support for Prop 8 in California did the Church soften its approach toward enforcing its morality. Among its members, the Church has continued to deny queer identities and relationships, enforcing extra barriers to their and their families' membership and community fellowship. These policies and the discourse supporting them have a vocal supporter in Pres. Oaks, whose history of legal theory, university administration, and moral teaching make it clear that he prefers non-cis-het voices have no place in society. Pres. Oaks presided over electroshock conversion therapy at BYU, and lies about it to this day. As next in line to lead the LDS Church, his persistent homophobia is a real risk to queer LDS members and their communities, both in the Mountain West and beyond. In sum, the LDS Church is constrained by circumstance and humbled by experience, not a paragon of rendering to Caesar the things which are Caesar's.

[@swcordovaf]

This opinion is why Trump won. Keep spewing this kind of bias into the conversation and watch MAGA rule for a generation. Go back and look long and hard at what you wrote and you will see the social views that will forever alienate religious people and get them to vote for a character like Trump.

[@S62r]

How are the churches beliefs relevant to their civic policies? If you don’t believe you don’t have to be a member but still get the protections Oaks and other instituted in the Utah government

[@zwilnik]

If you didn't see Evangelicals breaking for Trump, you're deluded. You didn't know Evangelicals for what they are (power mad grifters) and instead bought their line. You're not a leader, you're a mark.

[@donilagringaloca]

I know that here in Mexico mass is is dieing and churches sre closing.is do sad with a very rich culture and religious community

[@AlexMoenR]

The actual content of this interview is way more fluffy than the title makes it sound. I would be interested in hearing how Christianity underpins democracy. Instead this was just a “my version of Christianity is good” piece of navel gazing. Maybe not the interviewees fault, but I found this pretty useless.

[@JoshuaAvery-n7j]

A good case can be made that democracy arrives in the West in a distinct line from Christianity. Paul says that in Christ there are no distinctions between Jew and Gentile, male and female, slave and free. This was absolutely not mainline thinking in the West prior to its articulation. Aristotle and Plato certainly do not share such sentiments. Aristotle assumes a "slave nature," and Plato's Republic treats democratic ideas with contempt. The ancient Roman world generally saw such egalitarianism as a violation of common sense. The Enlightenment idea--articulated by John Locke, among others--of a natural law of equality ultimately rests upon Christian foundations. The argument makes no sense without a moral direction (or telos) existing in the cosmos, that moral direction established by the Creator. "That all men are created equal" is simply nonsensical if one scuttles God/metaphysics, etc.

[@Roger-r7s]

Not better Christianity genuine Christianity, this has always been the issue.

[@sohu86x]

There is no such thing as "genuine Christianity". Christianity is a collection of beliefs and practices shaped and negotiated by people in communities. That's why if you visited a "house church" in 1st century Rome, a Roman Catholic parish in rural Italy in the 18th century, and a Pentecostal church in urban 20th century America, you will see a diversity of belief and practices. More frequently than not, these will have no overlapping similarities. With that said, I believe that Christianity will not die off or become completely irrelevant for at least 5-10 or more decades. If so, Christianity has to adopt the more "socially acceptable" parts of Christianity such as the better teachings of Jesus. We cannot continue with the madness that is the death cult teachings of Jesus and the NT writers.

[@nicholasparks330]

Right, people have no idea the amount of hellenistic philosophy entered during the first couple centuries and paganized it. People have no idea the amount syncretism that has occurred in 2k years.

[@andywomack3414]

And more true Scotsmen.

[@misatobestgirl7230]

Evangelicals were easily swayed because 'evangelicism' is nothing, it's a name without body or substance.

[@bobKCMO2024]

Look, dude. This self-righteous bullshit that a Christian has no business voting for Donald Trump Is made up by people that don’t read or don’t understand anything about Christianity The whole Bible is nothing but redemption stories of God using people that are extremely flawed . Like murders, thieves, all kinds of stuff that God ends up using for the better good of his will. It’s got nothing to do with how humanity judges, a person’s morality because some liberal nonsense virtue signaling , it’s all about how God sees his heart So don’t come on here talking nonsense like you know what you’re talking about

[@catherinebirch8263]

Then replace it with a proper democracy. Duh.

[@S62r]

It’s already a democracy but if the people lack these Christian virtues it’s like introducing democracy to Iraq

[@catherinebirch8263]

@@S62r It's nothing even close to a functioning democracy. Do you really mean like the Americans imposing a political system on Iraq? Because Iraq hardly needs to be introduced to democracy. What would have been great for Iraq would have been for western countries to have left it to find its own feet; in particular for the US not to have supported Saddam Hussein's regime, as it did for years, and later not to have invaded it.

[@horrido666]

"Lifelong conservatives, and Evangelicals" are responsible for the political mess we are in. Why would I want to listen to one? A big part of society's problems is that we don't learn from the past. DOn't take advice from anyone who consistently got it wrong in the past, especially if you had it right. These people's moral compass consistently points directly at themselves. Learn from your mistakes.

[@S62r]

The most liberal and secular parts of the country have even bigger messes going on (SF, Portland, Seattle, etc.)

[@bubblisimo]

Fantastic discussion.

[@JamieMorrisfigure8productions]

The question is: can WE survive Christianity.

[@vegardlandmark1869]

Go be 17 years old somewhere else.

[@r8chlletters]

Thank you.

[@wonderfulfebruary]

Atheism doesn't preserve people from developing libertarianism in their brains unfortunately

[@FlawlessP401]

Christianity is based and awesome actually

[@hw6271]

Christianity has been around for 2000 years Humans have been around a lot longer than that

[@josephmartin8169]

Hey NYTimes, Neal Brennan covered this six years ago - look up Daily Show & "Republicans Need Jesus."

[@kabuki7038]

Nothing can survive without Christ

[@OldSchoolSk8ermatt]

I dunno, India has been doing ok for longer than Christianity existed.

[@kabuki7038]

@@OldSchoolSk8ermatt They still have streets dedicated for public defecation.

[@OldSchoolSk8ermatt]

The problem is it’s fiction, and true belief in religion interferes with scientific progress

[@matthewgoeglein-oj3lq]

Your scientists literally casted off religion and believe men can become women bruh 🤡. Religion vs a science is a myth bro

[@guydreamr]

Both Taiwan and Japan are neither Christian nor very religious and their democracies have been going strong for decades.

[@oldasrocks9121]

What if it can't survive with it?

[@bobKCMO2024]

It can’t. The basic questions of answers to the truth of this world are because of the Bible and Christianity Remove that And we’re all sitting around like morons trying to figure out what a woman and a man is

[@ronbaker6000]

Obama is that you?

[@dougwalsh9282]

Deify yourself and suggest a substitute. Duh.

[@S62r]

It already survived 250 years with it and became the most powerful country on earth. What secular country did that?

[@jeremysmith9694]

Wow. What a great compliment. As a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints i appreciate the complimentary words towards the church.

[@mikey.6041]

Interesting convo, some very relatable commentary. I've been experiencing a lot of church shoppers lately, not much leading by the Spirit nor is the intent on serving and sacrificing for Christ.

[@themoose70]

tho do remember Jesus wasn't always friendly to all... he was very angry at those running business in the temple, the self-righteous Jewish leadership of the time and their priestly hierearchies and he certainly rebelled against Roman authority which got him killed...

[@dbuckhalton]

Number one be like Jesus.

[@dbuckhalton]

Good stuff

[@lindahoganson8721]

Survive without the Christian philosophy or survive without the Christians?

[@cnj420]

This whole thing is out of hand. Trust adults without having to scare them into it.

[@Swift_2028]

I'd give Jesus a try. But not Paul, the actual founder of Christianity.

[@angelsy1975]

Behold the danger of putting converts in a position of power, especially when they are positioned to define purity.

[@f4r6u5180]

That’s dumb who do you think told Paul what to say?

[@witwisniewski2280]

No civilization will thrive without moral integrity of both leaders and citizens. Christ's teachings are a great source of ethics, but other religions also offer great moral wisdom. Some atheists (another religion, actually) who wish to their moral best seem to find moral truth. Bottom line, we will thrive if we, individually decide to be good people.

[@jennysteves]

I agree, but. Why just true Christianity? Why not also mature spirituality? And the choice or ability to view all living and ‘non-living’ beings and relationships as sacred?

[@Ben-15]

I think the point from the piece is that the USA is still majority Christian, but that Christians in the USA are not currently voting with the tenets of their religion. That’s why “our” democracy can’t survive without true Christianity, not that any democracy can’t survive without other majority-held beliefs and convictions.

[@jennysteves]

@@Ben-15yes. But I’d like to think that in this day and age Christians practicing ‘true’ (thick) Christianity have opened their hearts and minds to accepting other faiths (as well as people of kindness with no practiced faith) as valid and worthy.

[@sbentler6830]

Of His Teachings, the Founder of the Baha’i Faith said, “This is the changeless faith of God; eternal in the past, eternal in the future.” He taught the oneness of God and religion is true and eternal. Each great religion has a Great Teacher. Each was sent progressively, to educate all humanity. Therefore, what is needed now is for the progressive spirit in which humanity can face and embrace its essential oneness, while celebrating diversity. This is the secret of founding a universal civilization that will bring peace and unity to a broken world.

[@alephmale3171]

Great points.

[@tjcassidy2694]

Athens wasn't Christian.

[@thedahkterizzin8831]

That depends a LOT on what you mean by Christianity, right?😂

[@parker9012]

I think for a lot of the left good Christianity boils down to forgiveness and cherity. But a Christianity built with only thost 2 legs is built to be taken advantage of. How does a Christian society solve the free rider problem?

[@angelsy1975]

Reminiscent of the parable of the Prodigal Son - guy asks for his inheritance to make his way in the world, blows it all recklessly, and yet is celebrated by his father on his return, despite the complaints of his more responsible brother.

[@danielleremp4328]

Everybody deserves health care, shelter and food.

[@parker9012]

@@danielleremp4328 even people who can contribute to society, but choose not to? won't that just lead to a society that eventually collapses under the weight of free riders? building a house takes a enormous amount of labor, should our society expend that labor to create houses for people who refuse to contribute to our society?

[@Lerian_V]

@@danielleremp4328 False.

[@Ann.Sans.E]

@@danielleremp4328 yes, everyone does. and believing in this mantra and providing for the needy is a hallmark of civilized society. more charity, less meaness, and particularly so in these times.

[@Ann.Sans.E]

organized religion, no matter the flavor, requires belief in what cannot be proved which makes for easy manipulation of the faithful, and which is why governments promote them so enthusiastically. i grew up catholic and saw how my version of christianity was held up as a conceit and transmogrified into an illusion of virtue. i see that same kind of illusion in today's self righteous christians who seem unmoved over their intrusion of mayhem into the lives of those they will never know with enforcement of their tragically misguided right to life illusion. it's always been clear to me that donald trump is a carnival barker who latches onto the power of those he can manipulate. so he and the evangelical christians were a matched set. what gets me is the breadth and depth of this dangerous illusion that the rest of us could see but you guys couldn't? so i think that the evangelical faithful need to consider what brought them to trump because, though the faithful at large may have been somehow fooled, i sincerely believe that the governing folks at the top knew exactly who he was but went down the road to perdition anyhow.

[@courtneybrown6204]

It's great, you do you over there and stop legislating away the rights of your fellow Americans. Stay in your lane and your ride will be a lot smoother.

[@robertgalindo5979]

Sounds like appeasement.

[@kendomyers]

I have been horrified to see what the Republican Party is becoming as it becomes more secular. Still need secular government. And I left the church, and the Republican Party, as I became an athiest myself.

[@Lerian_V]

The more secular the country becomes, the worse it becomes.

[@kendomyers]

@Lerian_V I'd argue the more secular the Republicans become the worst they become. I see evidence that Democrats, at least in their current organization, can handle secularism with their increased education levels and trust in secular institutions. This is supported by research. Republicans are less educated, conspiracy theory prone, distrustful and more supportive of violence (all points supported by research). Take religion away from this crowd, they turn to fascism. They elect a thrice married, failed casino-magnate, liar, con-artist traitor, sex abuser and convicted felon to the highest office.

[@kendomyers]

@@Lerian_V I'd argue the more secular the Republicans become the worst they become. I see evidence that Democrats, at least in their current organization, can handle secularism with their increased education levels and trust in secular institutions. This is supported by research. Republicans are less educated, conspiracy theory prone, distrustful and more supportive of violence (all points supported by research). Take faith away from this crowd, they turn to [f-ism]. They elect a thrice married, failed casino-magnate, liar, con-artist traitor, [s]-abuser and convicted felon to the highest office.

[@kendomyers]

@@Lerian_V I'd argue the more secular the Republicans become the worst they become. I see evidence that Democrats, at least in their current organization, can handle secularism with their increased education levels and trust in secular institutions. This is supported by research. Republicans are less educated, conspiracy theory prone, distrustful and more supportive of violence (all points supported by research).

[@kendomyers]

@@Lerian_V I'd say the more secular the Republicans become the worst they become. I see evidence that Democrats, at least in their current organization, can handle secularism with their increased education levels and trust in secular institutions. This is supported by research. Republicans are less educated, conspiracy theory prone, distrustful and more supportive of violence (all points supported by research). Take faith away from this crowd, they turn to [f-ism]. They elect a thrice married, failed casino-magnate, liar, con-artist traitor, [s]-abuser and convicted felon to the highest office.

[@whitneyw.7919]

The “true” Christianity is a beautiful religion if you read the Bible. The modern church/evangelicalism is a political social organization more so than actual Christianity/following life laid out in the Bible.

[@sohu86x]

Not true. You have not read the entire text.

[@iemy2949]

Have you read the Old Testament?

[@Gawd-z3c]

This show does not have even one Trump supporter.

[@alephmale3171]

It is very hard to be highly educated and also be a strong Trump supporter. So if they did have a strong Trump supporter on the show, it would turn out that a lot of their arguments would either turn out to be highly educated unironic fascism using Trump as a tool, or dumb cultish faith in Trump as a literal savior of the world based on vibes. The NYT is, with this video, seeking a middle way, and trying to reach out to any remaining non-insane Trump voters who mainly disliked Kamala/Democrats, rather than LOVING Trump.

[@sohu86x]

Why should anyone support a sexual offender, a liar, a narcissist? You wouldn't associate with such a person in your daily life.

[@merlintym1928]

​@@sohu86x Trump *just* won the popular vote. It might be helpful to enage with someone who thinks the same way as a majority of Americans.

[@FlawlessP401]

​​@@sohu86xhonestly even if it were all true as long as he destroys woke peoples entire world I dont care. I will not share a country with collectvist crybabies.

[@JoshuaAvery-n7j]

The implication of your objection is akin to a fallacy of the middle ground. The show has no Trump supporters because there is no genuinely substantial defense of Trump.

[@iemy2949]

Oaks also presided over BYU while it conducted “conversion” therapy. And he lied about it.

[@S62r]

What if there were a conversion method that worked but everyone was too afraid to look for it? If there was a surefire way to convert probably 99% of LGBTQ would go for it

[@iankclark]

This podcast was so utterly disappointing I can't even find the words.... well here are three words: God help us!

[@danielleremp4328]

At 17:40, I heard you say, Mr. Rauch, "I don't know if God hears the prayers of an atheist." This begs the question: Are you saying that God exists?

[@Anaguma79]

Have you never run across irony before?

[@Jszar]

Rauch is willing to acknowledge that he could be wrong. I’m sure he’d be shocked to one day wake up in an afterlife, but that willingness would probably see him through the resulting personal turmoil.

[@danielleremp4328]

​@@Anaguma79 I am duly humiliated. As a Kamala voter, it's been very difficult for me lately to take anything as unserious.

[@HugoGlz56]

These guys God is Democracy.

[@jennysteves]

An interesting read for listeners might be ‘Putting On the Mind of Christ’ by Jim Marion

[@MarkWendland]

I think he just did a cover of Neibuhr's song Christ & Culture.

[@Anaguma79]

I can't fault the content of this piece, but that's an awful title.

[@nickpease1597]

America was founded as a secular nation, no? Wtf is this shit, NYT?

[@FirstGameFreak1000]

Founded by a bunch of Christian Deists who laid out our government on the presumption of Christians engaging in it

[@Lerian_V]

Not really

[@montrose252]

I am shocked, shocked! Evangalicals are authoritarian hypocrites??? Dude, blaming "woke" is not a valid argument

[@FirstGameFreak1000]

You’ve completely missed the point, Which is that in the absence of a central ideology, people will replace it with identity.

[@montrose252]

@@FirstGameFreak1000 Or hopefully marxist class-conscioussness!

[@SmellsLikeNow]

Interested then shut you off at 1:16. Obviously you haven't received the message that Democrats can no longer claim the moral high ground. I truly wish one or both of the parties reclaim it.

[@SamSung-nf6tr]

What a stupid topic

[@cwidd1929]

alright, time time to unsubscribe

[@kirkw.72]

A very dull, dry discussion between two Trump haters.

[@lonesaiyan27]

Deus vult!

[@quique2886]

Morality depends on feelings of survivability. The less you feel survival is not a problem, the less morality you will have and experience.

[@witwisniewski2280]

People who want to justify being hateful, vengeful, cruel, etc. read and worship according to the Old Testament. They call that Christianity, but Christ came with the New Covenant that replaces the barbaric elements of the Old Testament with a new kindness in the New Testament. That is all that we need to get out of this madness.

[@CaptnButch]

“One of the most immoral and cruel men ever to run”. Might this person be biased? Time to stop listening…

[@le_rayon_vert]

Factual statement

[@danielleremp4328]

I'm hopeful that it can be seen by those who disagree as a time to express their opinion.

[@rakadus]

No. Helps you understand the depth of biases. Today it's one person, tomorrow another. Biases are insatiable.

[@CaptnButch]

@@danielleremp4328 thanks for the reply and I agree. I’m a conservative who is listening to the NYT opinions because I really want to hear both sides and I want to be open. But I really am amazed at the depth of bias and how it’s not even recognized by many very smart people.

[@jedibane]

@@CaptnButchwhat does smart mean?

[@gregorypierquet6321]

Except the critics of people who would listen to the NYT Podcasts carry little weight, I imagine.

[@accordiongordon]

What is this right wing crap

[@philiphorrocks6107]

as soon as you use the word woke you lose all credibility. Woke is a political and may be a racial slur. it's also a nonsensical proposition meaning nothing

[@rampage241]

Racial slur? Against which race?

[@danielleremp4328]

Another problem is the use of the word "Christian". As a Catholic, I can remember, some years back, being baffled by a question I was asked: "Are you Christian or are you Catholic?"

[@jedibane]

@@rampage241I think slur would have worked. Woke is a word like weird. It’s politicized and made to belittle or other a person

[@bobKCMO2024]

But yet here you are defending it with your honor Interesting 🤔

[@Jeton6]

Woke is an algorithm-regulated, social media generated Mind Virus that is a fine target for obliteration from American culture. prior to that, it was the degeneracy of American academia for decades, and before that, it was an intra-communal Black admonition to Beware Power...and beware generally. 👋 the side that calls woke a "slur" is the side facing political disintegration now.

[@Nicolas-uu3jr]

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂, I'm gonna listen to this!!....😇😇😇😇😇😇, actual No I won't

[@MrsHanza]

This was brilliant! As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints I want to say thanks to David French for the kind words and compliment to my church. I love my faith! I am a liberal California girl who moved to Utah 22 years ago. This last election broke my heart as I did not see a Trump win coming. I graduated from high school where 60% of my senior class came to the states illegally. I loved my classmates and I have fond memories of being in their homes and feeling loved by their families. You can't convince me that they are anything but assets to our country. I have a daughter who is openly bisexual and friends who are also in the LGBTQ community. I have raised my daughters to be intelligent, hard working and strong. I believe in their ability to make good choices for their body. I am a strong women who appreciates what a strong woman like Harris is capable of. So you can understand how alone I felt in Utah on election day. To say I was hurt and angry was an understatement. I took it personally. How am I going to sit with my friends and family who chose not to fight for women, immigrants and LGBTQ rights and voted for Trump? I went to my temple with these questions. It was there that I was reminded about the commandment Christ gave to forgive and to love. I needed to humble myself. Everyone has different experiences. Who you vote for does not define you. Really good people voted for Trump. David French spoke of the importance of forgiveness and love in this piece. This is how we heal this country. And yes David: God does hear an atheist's prayers. God is in "relentless pursuit" of all His children no matter their theology. kzbin.info/www/bejne/eJ6adYB4ab-Vfcksi=PXAOezxbyVxkG3AU