What If - ROBERTO CLEMENTE Never Played BASEBALL for the PIRATES???

[@brutusonbaseball]

Thanks for tuning! I think Clemente in any uniform other than the Pirates would have been the strangest of them all so far...what do you think?

[@jimnfl7134]

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[@big8dog887]

Not sure that would have worked. When the Dodgers built Dodger Stadium, there was an entire Latino community that was displaced because of it, and I don't think there's any way Clemente could have remained silent about that. Rather than dealing with the headache, I can picture the Dodgers trading him. The logical trade, if the parties could put aside the rivalry, would be the Giants, who had two Hall of Fame first basemen, one awkwardly playing the outfield. I could almost see it happening, Clemente was a very good player, but didn't hit the next level until later in the decade, maybe the Dodgers think they're getting the better end of the deal with either Orlando Cepeda or Willie McCovey, while the Giants make the puzzle fit together a lot better. So Clemente and Willie Mays could be teammates in San Francisco (and maybe throw in Hank Aaron from the last video).

[@brutusonbaseball]

I'm not sure I would buy that Clemente would be so outspoken, especially against a team like the Dodgers, so early in his career. But this alternative scenario to the alternative scenario would have been quite interesting too...it seems most roads in these videos lead to a Giants dynasty that never was!

[@big8dog887]

@@brutusonbaseball Ground broke on Dodger Stadium in 1959, so you're right that he would have been late to the party in terms of trying to stop the project. But Clemente would have been a participant in the 1959 World Series, and probably in 1961 as well. The stadium opened in 1962, which, with Clemente, would have been another pennant for the Dodgers, and sometime in there, I would think he would have established a platform to speak out on maybe getting some compensation for those who were displaced. Of course, I could be wrong about the Dodgers trading him, maybe he becomes so popular that the organization decides to do right by those people (although that may have been more of a city problem than a team problem.) Let's address the more positive scenario. Dodgers won the World Series in 1963, were a sub-.500 team in '64, went to back to back World Series in '65 and '66, winning one, getting swept in the other. After Koufax retired, the Dodgers were a sub-.500 team for 2 years, Clemente puts them over .500 but no pennant. 1969 is interesting, the Dodgers finished 8 out, Clemente's WAR was 7.5, but he would be replacing a literal "replacement-player" in right field (Andy Kosco, 0.1 WAR). I think the intangible of Clemente's leadership improves somebody else's WAR enough to put the Dodgers over the top. Not sure they're beating the Mets. Dodgers also probably win the division in 1971, where they maybe (I doubt it) meet the Clemente-less Pirates in the playoffs. So we can add 2 more pennants and 2 more division titles which could be pennants to the four pennants the Dodgers did win in that time frame. Clemente still would have made the trip to Nicaragua, whether he would have had access to a better airplane, we'll never know. If we add Mays, we can probably throw in 1960 and 1964 to the pennant mix, they were still too far gone in '67 and '68, and Mays was still good, but not Willie Mays-level good in 1970, so I don't think he gets that one. So Mays-Clemente Dodgers could be 8-10 time pennant winners, with maybe 5-6 rings. As for the Pirates, they won in 1960 by 7 games, Clemente's WAR was 4, so they probably still win that one, but I don't think the early 70s (3 straight division titles, one World Championship) are nearly as successful, given the impact of Clemente's leadership. Then you also have to wonder about whether Willie Stargell would have become the leader he was in 1979.

[@billkerns9258]

@@big8dog887 I'm with you. Everything I know about Clemente, the man, tells me he would have spoken up. By the 1959-1960 period he was already speaking up in his real life. He did speak up about how low he placed in MVP voting after the 1960 season for example, and included points about respect for Latino players. Assuming his alternate timeline season of 1960 with the Dodgers was as strong as with the Pirates, he'd have spoken up on this issue I think and he'd have his platform. A case can be made that by 1960 he was one of the top stars in the game, more deserving of the MVP than Dick Groat. I wonder how Dodgers management would have reacted. Place him in a different location and he may have been an even bigger civil rights figure of the era as well as bigger star. The alternate history with Clemente that I turn to is his role in civil rights. As for the Jackie Robinson rumor mentioned in the video, I see it stems from GM Buzzie Bavasi, cited in 2006 by Stew Thornley. I find the claim highly implausible. I don't question Thornley as a journalist. I question either Bavasi's memory (he was 90 at the time of an interview with Thornley) or motivation. He is widely praised for his role with Robinson, Roy Campanella and Don Newcombe, but the displacement of people in the Latino community while he was GM is a stain on his record. I can picture questions being raised by Robinson perhaps about Clemente's readiness, after all Clemente did struggle offensively when he first made it to Pittsburgh. Clemente was very young and there's no shame about a bit of time in the minors. Nor would there be any shame if Robinson and Bavasi may have discussed some time for Clemente in the minors. But the way the rumor has evolved makes it seem like Robinson was appeasing systemic racism, and that goes against everything Robinson's legacy has come to stand for; it also goes against the theological interpretation of the scripture that informed him (long story related to the AME Church and to the Great Awakening of the era). In the end, this simply seems like moral cowardice on the part of Bavasi. The decision rested with Bavasi as a GM, not with the players. If Clemente was considered not quite ready, no shame on Bavasi at all. But to shift things onto Robinson is as far as I'm concerned an act of moral turpitude (though the real moral turpitude is what happened in Los Angeles with the Latino community). In the end Robinson and Clemente are on the moral side of history, Bavasi is not.

[@big8dog887]

@@billkerns9258 I'd never heard the Robinson story before so I did a little digging. According to an article on the ESPN website, apparently, in 2005, Buzzie Bavasi, the Dodgers GM at the time who was 90 years old recalling a story from over 50 years before, was the one who told it. Of course, Bavasi painted himself as the good guy, he was arguing for promoting Clemente against Walter O'Malley and the board, they decided to call in Robinson, who allegedly advised not to demote a more popular white player (fellow by the name of George Shuba). I agree that doesn't sound like Robinson, and the story does seem a little self-serving on Bavasi's part, nobody else in the room was still alive to either back or refute the story. If it wasn't true, I can't say whether to blame racism, CYA, senility, or some combination. As for blocking the channel, you've got to do what you feel is right, of course, but I think it's a little harsh to judge a guy based on one sentence in one video that may not have had proper context assigned to it. As a longtime viewer, I'll vouch that this guy stands for the right things.