What if the IND Second System was Built?

[@StoriesNyTV]

Damn those southeastern Brooklyn lines would've been so useful throughout my 20+ years of living 😭

[@harrykatsos]

Plus they woulda been so worth exploring when I was a kid

[@boguette_]

Uhh how did I just see this instantly. Anyways, if the IND Second System was built, then less people would use those overcrowded buses, and more people would use the subway. It would allow outer neighborhoods of Queens and the Bronx to be well connected to the rest of the city. Just so you know the reason why boroughs other than Manhattan were able to grow so rapidly was thanks to the subway. I am your first view for this video :)

[@stickynorth]

All of these uncompleted projects should be pitched and built as a huge investment in the future scheme and as a partnership between the city, the state and the feds, along with possible private developers who might benefit along the way too! In other cities like Montreal they are building entire automated networks like the REM while NYC stagnates... And speaking of automation... That is something that definitely need to happen in the MTA network to improve efficiency and economy of service...

[@BMTEnjoyer160]

I wish the Second System happened things like the Second Avenue Subway And The Eastern Queens Extensions Would Be A Big Help

[@leecornwell5632]

The 3 trains 🚃 could definitely be extended to gateway mall in Brooklyn. The 2 5 trains could be extended to Flatlands Ave Brooklyn.

[@DanforthNiceBusQ110]

we do have to deal with more merging conflicts with more extentions

[@qjtvaddict]

Laughing in 2nd ave

[@j.t.5178]

If the either the 1929 or 1939 plans were built, so much of the city would be much more accessible. The city would be a little more dense in Eastern sections of the outer boroughs, but it'll most likely be more like Corona or Richmond Hill, where it's more a mix of 2-4 family homes, with a random smattering of apartment buildings instead of the suburbanization that actually happened after World War II. Honestly, the biggest mistake was the demolition of the Third Avenue El in Manhattan in the 1950s. I could understand demolishing the portion between Chatham Sq and South Ferry as the Brooklyn Bridge was reconfigured to connect to FDR Drive. However, they didn't need to demolish the portion from City Hall to Chatham Sq (closed in 1953) then the rest of the line in 1955. The line could have been upgraded to carry regular subway cars and the platforms lengthened, which would have required some reconfiguring of stations. It would have alleviated the overcrowding on the Lex Ave Line. The Upper East Side and Midtown East would still be gentrified regardless of the El being there or not.

[@EdwardM-t8p]

If this system got built it would have been a game changer not only for New York City but also for other cities in the United States. The cuties that have subway systems now would have much bigger ststems and cities that don't have any subway systems would have them.

[@lawrencestelter5830]

You may have noted that in recent decades NYC created "Transit Deserts" by razing the 3rd Avenue El in the Bronx and the Myrtle Avenue El in Brooklyn. Additionally, demolishing the Culver Shuttle in Brooklyn and the Jamaica El to 168th Street in Queens rendered less service. With regard to Staten Island, I have original early1920s reports and drawings. Some of the proposals included a freight railroad tunnel alongside the subway tunnels. Lawrence Stelter, 6/17/2024

[@DanforthNiceBusQ110]

@Tech Transit Association mabye u should talk about what will happen to existing structures in nyc that are in the way of the second system like the NYC transit musem and I-278

[@jaimerosado3896]

Unfortunately there’s one big problem with the NYC subway today (and the Chicago L I might add) that due to a lack of foresight would still persist even the second system had been completed. And that problem is that while the subway is excellent for getting people to and from Manhattan, it does a horrible job at getting people from outer borough to outer borough, especially from the Bronx to Queens. It’s the classic bicycle wheel pattern, with axle and spokes, but no rim. I would also to add that another map was presented ten years later on July 5, 1939 (source: “The Subway,” Stan Fischler). This map had the Utica Avenue subway ending in Floyd Bennet Field instead of at Nostrand Avenue. It had a subway under Fort Hamilton Parkway, branching off what is now the Culver Line, and continuing into Staten Island. And it also shows the acquisition of the Bronx portion of the New York, Westchester, and Boston Railway (Dyre Avenue Line) and has it merging with the Pelham Bay Line instead of White Plains Road. And please stop praising gentrification. There’s nothing positive about longtime residents being priced out of their neighborhoods, especially those that went to Hell and back with those neighborhoods.

[@israelrodriguez2167]

There was one good thing about gentrification, it forced the city to improve services to those communities, the bad thing about that is that we should not have had to have gentrification in the first place to improve those services.

[@jaimerosado3896]

@@israelrodriguez2167That’s the ONLY good thing.

[@harrykatsos]

It does get ppl from Brooklyn to Queens and Queens to Brooklyn, just not the way the G train does it.

[@TiagoGomez-hb9te]

@@harrykatsos G train still needs way more support.

[@transitcaptain]

He enlisted the help of the Alternate Universe Transit Authority (AUTA) to explain what would happen. The diverging point was 1929 when the city decided building new lines was a top priority and not just survival

[@DanforthNiceBusQ110]

thw windfeild spur or whatever u call it will also fill a transit desert in queens and help reduce overcrowding buses there

[@DTD110865]

They would be better off replacing the rest of the former LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch with the IND Rego Park Line. As part of that, revive the old Woodhaven Junction LIRR station with the new Woodhaven Transfer LIRR-IND station, replace the bridge at Whitepot Junction with a new Rego Park Transfer LIRR-IND station, and end the line at the Queens Boulevard Line somewhere around Grand Avenue.

[@Moon_Dasher]

Also, dont forget Robert Moses prioritized Highways over Subway

[@leecornwell5632]

Speaking 🗣️ about the subways over the highways. The 8 Thrid Ave Elevated line once ran above the cross Bronx express highways and they had to messured the Thrid Avenue Elevated beams so the trucks 🚛 and cars could pass without hitting the Thrid Avenue Elevated steel structures. The biggest problem was Governor LaGuardia and Robert mosses and the real estates could not stand for no extra elevated lines to be the way they are right now. Robert mosses and governor LaGuardia and the real estate's could not stand for no extra elevated lines at all.

[@Moon_Dasher]

@@leecornwell5632 oh, interesting. There were also plans for a line to run over the Long Island Expwy into the Nassau Co. Border. I think if there were to be funding for any new lines, they would have to be underground

[@tonymanzo3766]

The 3 rd ave line had to have a 14’ clearance between the el and the expressway being built underneath, the el was as actually raised to make this happen, it was the last improvement to the el. The el might have still been operating into Manhattan when proposed but as the Manhattan part was cut back it was probably not worth the expense to raise it. The central Bronx where the el ran is a transit desert with buses serving where the el was. It probably could have been extended along gun hill road to co op city.

[@leecornwell5632]

@@tonymanzo3766 The 8 Thrid Ave Elevated shouldn't have been never taken down at all. They had let it get it to rusted and not taking care of the elevated metal steel structures. All they really had to do is to have the BX 55 buses running until they do a complete inspections over haul trestles track frames and girldles and beams and then continueing running the 8 Thrid Ave Elevated line back and forth between Gun hill and and 149 street and then digging under ground on Thrid Avenue to Battery park place or chatmam Square or south Ferry. Chances are Rebuilding the brand new Thrid Avenue Elevated line in the Bronx only. Never rebuild another elevated line in Manhattan again. Right now they are studying how they are gonna have the Thrid Avenue Elevated line back in the south Bronx Clearmount Webster Boston road Bronx and then digging under ground on Thrid Avenue. That was a terrible thing to do is tairing down the 8 Thrid Ave Elevated line down in the south Bronx. They are still processing about it non-stop every sense they have torn down the 8 Thrid Ave Elevated line down.

[@DTD110865]

@@leecornwell5632 The original plan for the remainder of the Third Avenue Line was simply to replace it with a new subway line. Unfortunately, the fiscal crisis of the mid-1970's made sure that would never happen. Also, I'd like to point out that not a single subway line or railroad line in the Bronx was eliminated when Moses built the roads. The IRT Jerome Avenue Line, the IND Concourse Line, the IRT Third Avenue, White Plains Road and Pelham Lines all remained intact. The New York Central Hudson and Harlem Divisions still existed as well as the New Haven Railroad's Harlem River Branch, all of which survived the Penn Central merger and later bankruptcy, followed by the acquisition by Metro-North and Amtrak.

[@VinceHere98]

Alternatively, I think the IND second system would’ve been too ambitious to be fully constructed. I think in an alternate timeline, only a few lines would be built. The Second Avenue Subway, I believe, would’ve been built shortly after the end of World War II, around 1947-48, whilst the Nostrand Avenue line would be extended in the 1950’s. As the city gets bigger and bigger, and both Lexington and Second suddenly begin to overcrowd, a new line along 5th Avenue would’ve been studied, and it would’ve been constructed by the end of the 50’s. Utica Avenue would’ve been part of another line that doesn’t go into Manhattan, running from somewhere in the Bronx to Floyd Bennett Field in Brooklyn, via 21st Street in Queens. It would be an A Division line with 4 tracks, and it would’ve been constructed in the mid-60’s. South 4th Street I don’t think would’ve served much of a purpose as that was built for trains running via Utica. It likely would’ve been reused for another purpose, like a nightclub or a large restaurant. It’s still possible it could be repurposed for such uses, or it could serve as part of a project to connect the G at Broadway to a brand new station on the Jamaica line at Union Avenue, resulting in the demolition of both Hewes and Lorimer Street. This would’ve likely occurred in the early 1970’s, before the fiscal crisis. The 63rd Street connection would still be built, as well as the Archer Avenue branch in the late 1980’s. In the early 90’s the Archer Avenue branch on the E would be extended along the LIRR right-of-way (currently used by the Long Beach and Far Rockaway branches today) towards Valley Stream, ending at the Green Acres Mall. This extension would’ve been fully completed around 1998-99. As for the other branches, there would also be one for the G along Northern Boulevard (built in the 1960’s with 4 tracks, with a connection to Second Avenue trains running express), an extra branch for the Flushing line to College Point (served by the 11 train, completed in the late 1960’s), an extension of the L to New Jersey (constructed 1999), and so much more.

[@Reformperson]

The S 4 St line would have served as a replacement of the Nassau Line and that would have kept the B and D lines to serve the S 4 Line and with deinterling it would be the A line going on that line too. The C and E lines would have been fully deinterlined and allowed to both be Express on Fulton. They would have been evened out by having the C serving Far Rockaway and the E to Lefferts. For the Manhattan Bridge the SAS would have been the line to serve Sea Beach and Bay Ridge with Deinterlining. This would have meant that the repurposed J and Z would have served West End and Bay Ridge. The F and M would have ran together via Culver Express to Coney Island while the other serving Staten Island. This would have meant that the M would have served Staten Island to St George converting the SIR ROW to a line the M would have used. The T using Fulton and the J via Sea Beach allows for both lines to have a turquoise bullet and the Z going to Bay Ridge extended to Staten Island via 4th Ave. The J R and Z lines would be the lines running via 4th Ave with the Nassau line gone and the S 4 St line in its place.

[@Reformperson]

@@ianhardy9375 yeah but under the plan I had the 6th Ave services which are the deinterlined B and D, go via Utica to Kings Plaza, and the other line takes the branch to Jamaica Center via Jamaica Ave. The deinterlined A on the other hand would take the IND Worth St line to access the S 4 St line up to Metropolitan Ave. With all that this means the F and M go via Culver allowing for more frequent service. This meant that the S 4 St line would have been mixed with 6th and 8th Ave services.

[@CR1Creative]

​@@Reformperson Under my plan I would make the Bushwick Trunk 4 tracks terminating at Broadway Junction from there it would go superexpress along the LIRR Atlantic Branch and merge with the lower level of the Archer Avenue Subway to Jamaica Center while the Myrtle Avenue Trunk would be a two level subway via Myrtle and Gates Avenues to Fresh Pond Road where It would either connect with the existing terminal at Metropolitan Avenue or go via the Glendale RR to Woodhaven Glen Oaks as for the SAS via Fulton I had two services go there with one going to Jamaica Center via Jamaica Avenue and the other going to Euclid Aveune while another service would go take the Utica Avenue Branch with two tracks. with that the Nassau Street line would be abandoned repurposing the (J) and (Z) on the SAS.

[@Reformperson]

@@CR1Creative yup and so with that I have A: 168th St to Middle Village Metropolitan Ave B: Inwood 207th St to Kings Plaza C: Queens Village Springfield Blvd to Far Rockaway D: Co-op City to Jamaica Center E: Rosedale F. Lewis to Cambria Heights (Loop) F: Jamaica 179th St to Tottenville G: Jamaica 179th St to Church Ave M: Rockaway Pk to Coney Island N: Throgs Neck to Coney Island Q: Pelham Bay Pk to Ocean Pkwy R: Cross Island Pkwy to Coney Island (West End) W: 125th St to Euclid Ave J: Wakefield 241st St to Coney Island (Sea Beach) Z: Eastchester Dyre Ave to Richmond Ave.

[@CR1Creative]

@@Reformperson Also I'll take it up a notch by adding an additional tunnel to Queens with that I had the (T) serve Northern Blvd up to Willets Point Blvd from there the line would shift along the Whitestone Expwy to as far as 14th Avenue while the (T) can serve Fulton and the Jamaica Avenue Subway and I'll also extend the Archer Avenue Subway one stop to a more efficient terminal at Merrick Blvd to handle two services with an underground yard at 93rd Avenue along with provisions for future extensions to Springfield Blvd and as for extension past Inwood to Co-op via Fordham you could cut across street grid and deep bore in the western bronx portion (while extremely expensive) this could bring great investment in return since Cross Bronx Service along Fordham and Pelham Pkwy is extremely heavily used also repurposing the Bx12-SBS as for the (1) it can be rerouted along the MNR and the ROW of Putnam to 240th Street to replace the Broadway-7th Avenue Line So In short we have this (B): Co-op City to Kings Plaza (Fordham) (Utica) (D): Co-op City to Merrick Blvd (Burke Avenue) (LIRR Atlantic) (T): College Pt Blvd to Merrick Blvd (Northern) (Fulton) (Jamaica Avenue) (W): 125th to Euclid Aveune (Fulton) IRT: (1): 240th Street to Red Hook (Putnam ROW) (2): E 180th St to Kingsbourough CC or Crown Hts (Nostrand) or (Eastern Pkwy Lcl) (3): Discontinued (4): Woodlawn to Flatlands Ave (Eastern Pkwy Exp) (New Lots) (5): Bklyn Bridge to Hunts Pt Ave (Lexington Ave Lcl) (Pelham) (6): Discontinued (7): Secaucus to Port Washington

[@Reformperson]

@@CR1Creative yes and also let’s take it a step farther by having the 125th St Shuttle which would be a easy to west connector. This would allow the N to serve Pelham and have the Q go serve another branch that was proposed in the IND Second System. The J under this plan takes Wakefield and the Z goes to Dyre. This makes the 3 redundant resulting in the line being discontinued same with the 6. Because the 5 is doing everything. So in other words we would have to allow the Lexington Local Tracks to merge with the Tracks to Brooklyn so the 5 can run Local to Utica Ave. This is so the 4 can run to Flatlands Ave via New Lots. By doing all the provisions we have the Astoria line extended to Cross Island Pkwy and the Queens Blvd line having two branches with a Van Wyck Line and the Hillside Ave line. Both have lines going to Southeast Queens. This makes the deinterlined E into a loop line, with the C going to Far Rockaway.

[@tubegirl1013]

I would have liked to have seen some of these lines be built but you're right at the end; if they'd been built and made the upkeep of the system untenable, new york could have ended up with a collapsed system and the reduced subway would have been a transit nerd's roman empire on par with LA's interurbans

[@TiagoGomez-hb9te]

What happened to LA’s interurbans?

[@JSythe]

One good thing came from not doing the IND second system. The College Point 7 extension and Van Wyck Lines werent built. It's a good thing because if those 2 places ever get served, it should be a vertical line that connects The Bronx to Queens crossing the East River between Clason Point and College Point. I have a route of this as a youtube short in my channel. A Laconia-Main St Line.

[@sonic2batt]

3:58 Cross Island Blvd was renamed Francis Lewis Blvd in 1939. The Cross Island Parkway is unrelated.

[@hairypotter259]

Why cant we have nice things like this 😭

[@qolspony]

Queens never got built out like the other boroughs. Brooklyn was it own city at one time. And any extensions was worked out with Queens later on. The Bronx was the extension of Manhattan. And Staten Island had an extension commuter sustem at one time. Anyway, just imagine Queens getting all these lines. Not only would it be the largest borough in size, it very possible that Queens couldve been a city onto itself.

[@spuds6423]

What is now Nassau County is the rest of the Former County of Queens.

[@45Steamer]

I would like to see what if the program for action lines were built

[@brucehain]

Thanks. I never did much investigation of the 2nd System so It's nice to get an idea by way of your crash course. I had heard the 2nd Avenue Subway was Bronx-intensive: with three branches you'd really need the six tracks. With Phase 2 they will be taking the 4-track part that was built and lining the local tracks with platforms for the now-two-track line. (What was that remark about the MTA being more adept than the bunch that built the IND?)

[@durece100]

If the second avenue subway extension to brooklyn, where does the New York Transit Museum relocated to? 10:36

[@DanforthNiceBusQ110]

that might be a problem

[@diegoyanesholtz212]

With the IND second system, there would be very little to improve the line, May there would be a need for a Staten Island Subway and a Line connecting the Bronx, Queens, and Brooklyn. If that is done the NYC subway would be perfect and a European level of transit.

[@jr.gaming2205]

I just wished we would’ve got the Bed Stuy, Utica Subway that’s the most major one missing 😢

[@tmalone2530]

Queens is ridiculously underserved by trains. The buses cannot keep up. Living in areas of Queens is so daunting.

[@ejm1225]

God, that would have been super swell. Now I wonder what the subway would have looked had the Program for Action went through.

[@ralphripoff1]

I didn't understand most of what you said, but it sounds cool. What would be the point of a six track line?

[@harrykatsos]

I think if the MTA is to get an IND Utica line, they would need a 4 track stacked TBM tunnel for a few segments of the line, like sumwhere deep when it passes under Crowns Heights Station or the stretch between IND Utica Ave station and the South 4th St line cuz Stuyvesant Ave can't b widened since that would get opposition.

[@j.t.5178]

Actually, the Utica Av Station on the Fulton St Line (A,C) has a secret mezzanine and express station platform and track bed above the A&C platforms. I agree the Stuyvesant Av portion would be Two-level, two-track, but would become 4-tracks at around Halsey St or so. Then it can continue as a 4-track subway until after Kings Hwy, where the express tracks continue to Kings Plaza (and maybe Nostrand Av via Avenue U), as the area is prone to flooding.

[@TheRailLeaguer]

There is no need for a full length IND Utica Avenue when an IRT branch from Eastern Parkway would suffice. This is also considering that Crown Heights-Utica is a garbage place to turn around trains with trains being delayed as a result, so having the Utica Subway start there would allow for local trains to use the Utica Avenue Line and express trains to continue to New Lots Avenue. I guess you won’t have to worry about your train being delayed due to terminating trains at Utica Avenue since there won’t be any trains terminating at Utica Avenue.

[@AaronB474]

@@TheRailLeaguer But what about Northern Utica that is still a transit desert.

[@TheRailLeaguer]

@@AaronB474 While ridership levels don’t warrant the full length subway, a compromise would be to have a separate pair of tracks for north of Eastern Pkwy. As originally planned, starting at Empire, it would continue north on Utica Avenue and Malcom X Blvd into Bed-Stuy, from there, rather than turn northwest towards Manhattan, it would actually turn the other way, as in Northeast towards Queens along DeKalb Avenue towards Wyckoff Avenue, connecting with the Canarsie Line. There will be a cross-platform transfer between the Utica IRT and the “Utica Avenue shuttle” at Empire Blvd.

[@harrykatsos]

@@TheRailLeaguer Ik it won't ever happen, I'm just stating what I think should happen if they were ever to consider the IND extension on Utica.

[@alexisdespland4939]

which cross town linee would the 79th steet tunnel comnnected to in manhatten.

[@harrykatsos]

They shoulda planned a 34th St tunnel to connect with the Crosstown line before Court Street Station.

[@AnujaShah-jo2wt]

Quick fact: The 86 St crosstown or whatever branches off 6 Av not Bway

[@qolspony]

They did not really need an IND. The IND was built to replace the IRT and BMT. So it was a waste of Money. Everything you said about the second system, already existed somewhat. The city tore down lines that served even better than the current system. The 9th Ave EL and 6th.Avenue. And in it place, we got an over built subway on 6th Avenue. Just the cost of underpinning the PATH and BMT is unspeakable. And it was a crime.of public funds that coulld have went to building the Second Avenue Subway. So whenever i hear, they did not have money, its a laughing joke! We did not need a Fulton Street subway, even though it is one of the best subways ever built by far. There is not a slow section anywhere, except maybe bwy east ny.

[@TheRailLeaguer]

That joke of yours is getting way too old and you need to stop with those conspiracy theories.

[@qolspony]

@TheRailLeaguer it's no conspiracy. It is public information that the IND was built to replace the BMT and IRT. Because the same guy who became mayor, was a motorman with the BMT. And when they fired him, he held a vendetta against them and ran and won as Mayor to.get rid of them. The problem is he used public funds to do just that!

[@AaronB474]

​@@TheRailLeaguer I've read your maps before some of your replacement subways for the elevated lines in the Bronx are indirect it's better to build replacement subways directly below the els instead also does your plan include replacing the Brighton and Culver lines.

[@TheRailLeaguer]

⁠@@qolsponyThat’s not true as it is a conspiracy, and you’re not seeing the big picture. Besides, there really wasn’t anything wrong with replacing the BMT and IRT elevated with subways. It was going to happen anyway.

[@TheRailLeaguer]

@@AaronB474Some of them are built directly under elevated structure, though replacing multiple lines. Not all of them since that would mean too much construction work to underpin the structures. However I did have a strategic few, mainly in the Bronx. Here, my Pelham Line replacement Subway on Westchester Avenue replaces both the Westchester Avenue portion of the White Plains Road elevated and the easternmost portion of the Pelham Line. The four track subway would be served by the 2 and 5 train, local and express respectively. The White Plains Road replacement subway travels under the rest of the WPR elevated.

[@omarfaruq9233]

LETS GO W VID

[@RavingShapes]

-You’ve only watched it for 2 minutes(?) and commented this just to be first- -Wow-

[@omarfaruq9233]

@@RavingShapes if its tta about the ind second system its gonna be good

[@RavingShapes]

@@omarfaruq9233 oh nvm then Ok

[@R262SubwayCar1]

Nice

[@CastleWolf17]

While some subway extensions could have been nice, this was extremely overdone. The Morningside line made absolutely no sense. The South 4th Street subway as 10 tracks was a big waste of resources. Proposals like the SAS, Rockaway Beach branch, and Nostrand Avenue extension were nice, but even these were overdone. SAS only needs 2-4 tracks, not 6.

[@TiagoGomez-hb9te]

4 Tracks

[@Blackdiamondprod.]

6:36 all the four?

[@ThatcrazyAK]

Should the second system be built today?

[@EndIessProductions]

not enough money they do have enough actually but it would take super duper long time

[@ThatcrazyAK]

⁠@@EndIessProductionsI know they don’t have that much money, what I’m saying is, should it be built, ( ignoring the absurd cost that would be needed for the Second System ) will it help reduce overcrowding in some major subway lines and increase development. ( Also, change some of the lines in the Second System, and you have your lucky bet!. And ignoring the amount of time it would need to take to build the second system.)

[@TheRailLeaguer]

Not all of them.

[@Jayjaycurlss01]

It’s amazing how if this were to happen there would be no connection between Broadway Junction and Myrtle Ave if the Jamaica EL got demolished

[@alexisdespland4939]

in the prsent day the future woodhaven boulevard line should go up queens boulvard and intio a new 79th a strret crosstown tunnel that migh gain a juction with the seconf avnue line but m or maybe a new madison avune lin but also go under centeral park with a new 9th avune runnel endind at either penn station or the quiter path connection statio of christpher steet and ultamately down inti brookly via either utica or nortstrand avune maybe even both.

[@DanforthNiceBusQ110]

with the queens extentions they will fill up these 4 transit deserts and help many commuters get to manhatten

[@boguette_]

Not only Manahttan, but also many other neighborhoods in their boroughs that nearby bus lines might not take them to

[@DanforthNiceBusQ110]

@@boguette_ that is true

[@BK_718]

We need a circle ⭕️ line like Moscow. Unfortunately with the labor unions and corrupt mismanagement from the democrats and republicans that hold weight in the MTA this will never get completed in my lifetime. The circle line should be at least 50 miles with 50 stations. That would cost like half a trillion dollars and would most likely take at least 50 years to get done. Every single household within the New York City limits should be no further than half a mile to a mile from a subway station.

[@gareginasatryan6761]

SAS is a nice thing, but not a necessity. Walking 5 minutes to the 6 train is not a deal breaker. Not able to travel between boroughs is. And is the major reason why the BQE, Van Wick and the Belt are congested.

[@jointransitassociation]

It is. The Lexington Ave Line is the most congested subway in US. It carries 1.3 million people. The sheer amount of overcrowding delays trains. The only way to decongest the subway is by building a parallel subway, the Second Ave Line. Second, I keep hearing this take because people want to extend and build branches out in the other boroughs. I agree that the subways need to be expanded in the outer boroughs. But when you build out all of these branches, that capacity needs somewhere to go. Manhattan trunk line capacity isn't infinite. So generations of planners back in the 30s, 40s, 50s, and 60s used took those branches in the outer boroughs and funneled them down Second Ave.

[@DanforthNiceBusQ110]

but there will be merging conflicts in the flushing and staten island extentions

[@leecornwell5632]

The 7 Flushing line could definitely be extended to Bayside and the 11 trains could definitely be extended to 20 college point.

[@gourobsarker7524]

But she is right this will create another merging conflict

[@fredrickdavis5489]

​@@gourobsarker7524 crossovers and cross crossunders would help.

[@jaytep5647]

8:25 what made the environment hostile towards public transit in 1945? was it just roads/highways?

[@EdwardM-t8p]

Redlining, too, and bad old fashioned racism imo.

[@DanforthNiceBusQ110]

these new lines would be very useful for different neighborhoods to have a direct connection to manhatten and its finance districts

[@qjtvaddict]

I don’t know why planners just didn’t accept the fact that people will transfer to express trains for longer trips?

[@EndIessProductions]

I don’t get it

[@EndIessProductions]

Can u explain what ur trying to say

[@ikelom]

0:51 Did you say John Mulaney??

[@Hypestrike1]

This is not exactly relevant to this video, but as many with an ear to the ground (literally and figuratively) will be watching this video too, does anyone know if any serious construction has started on SAS Phase 2 ? There were a lot of news stories in January reporting the MTA had awarded the first contract for utility relocation on Second Avenue in East Harlem, with work planned to begin in March. It's now May, and does anyone know if anything has happened?

[@DemonQueen1975]

That would have been awesome, especially for southeastern Queens, which is a transit desert. And Staten Island wouldn't have been ignored. Based on everything I've read so far about Robert Moses, he was a bit of a dick.

[@zayxyrn]

bro js made ppl life extremely hard💀

[@DanforthNiceBusQ110]

also having a connection to staten island will help because the people there can get to manhattan

[@odemata87]

Would be no supposed need for the IBX if this was built

[@jointransitassociation]

There probably will be. Especially there is no Cross Brooklyn service, even under the Second System.

[@rdbarne]

Though a second system would’ve helped, just imagine how high the rents would be in those transit deserts today if hose lines were in operation. The city would’ve been even more unaffordable.

[@jointransitassociation]

Well, not really. The 1961 rezoning resolution had to do more with it, as it constricted the housing supply.

[@lars7935]

Imagine if NYC had a municipal housing agency providing housing at cost, no profit for landlords to extract. That is how you had affordable housing in european cities. Vienna still does it this way and for that it is one the most liveable cities to live in.

[@TiagoGomez-hb9te]

@@lars7935 That’s very interesting indeed. How does Housing work over in Europe compared to the US?

[@Urban_Man]

Imagine the money spent for Interstate highway was used for transit，at least the highways could have left a medium for transit.

[@TheRailLeaguer]

Robert Moses left no room in the LIE for a subway extension. Sad since there are two major universities along the route and many people have been begging for this expansion.

[@bapples]

3:18 pronounced “sheep’s head”

[@DanforthNiceBusQ110]

no

[@EndIessProductions]

what

[@bapples]

@ 3:14. you said Sheep-shed but it’s pronounced “sheep’s head” 😉

[@nasifsiddiquey8867]

The Good Ending (NYC Urbanism Edition): - The IND Second System was built - Robert Moses never came to power - The 1961 Zoning Resolution never passed

[@DTD110865]

Even if the Second System were built, Robert Moses would still need to build the roads.

[@TheRailLeaguer]

⁠@@DTD110865 But not to the degree that they were built to today. Remember, Moses built many of his highways and bridges without provisions for any mass transit, leaving us with the same old buses (which are often slow). That may be overlooked so long as they had some sort of transit priority for the buses to speed past the usual bumper to bumper traffic. [they don’t]. You’re kidding. Remember when the subway was the best of them all in 1934. Yeah those were good times. Car development sadly took over leaving most of NYC with a bundle of nothing to add to their collection. Someone once said this: hope springs eternal. That hope was lost to the summer wind, and the city continues to fall.

[@DTD110865]

@@TheRailLeaguer Buses moved slow for the same reason other vehicles moved slow. Insufficient roads. Moses built roads that were better able to handle them, and tried to build more. He shouldn't have been stopped. And subway expansion could've still been carried out simultaneously... in fact it was, even if it wasn't at the level that the NYC Board of Transportation wanted.

[@TheRailLeaguer]

⁠@@DTD110865Insufficient roads are not the reason why the buses move slow. Rather, lack of bus priority. Take a look at what other cities do: Bus Rapid Transit in South America moves quick despite the “insufficient roads”. Convert some car lanes (or ideally, whole highways) into busways and you won’t need to build more roads. After all, “just one more lane” doesn’t help traffic at all, and a bi-directional busway moves more people and commerce effectively than six highway lanes.

[@TheRailLeaguer]

@@DTD110865 That’s not true, since there are enough roads in NYC. Moses was right to be stopped. However what there is an insufficiency of is bus priority infrastructure like bus lanes. Take a look at what’s done in South America. They have full fledged BRT infrastructure that moves buses fast past traffic jams. With this in mind, what can be done is taking a lane of two away from car traffic and rededicating them to create world-class BRT infrastructure like busways. All at a fraction of the cost compared to building new roads and without the property acquisition and community opposition it comes with.

[@KalebIsBack-go2qh]

am I the third comment?

[@EndIessProductions]

yes and this comment is a waste of pixels on my screen

[@ChuckConnNYC]

Sheep’s head , not sheep shed , fyi

[@aqua2poweros699]

Our government should invest in the second system instead of foreign aid.

[@DanforthNiceBusQ110]

with the 2 beanches there

[@DanforthNiceBusQ110]

i mean branches

[@frankiecrocker]

Speaking for most residents in Eastern Queens: "We don't want anymore subways!" We love how sparse and uncluttered it is out here.

[@jointransitassociation]

You might want to talk to some people in Eastern Queens.

[@frankiecrocker]

@@jointransitassociation those are the very ones who can't foresee the explosion in population and development. They're shortsighted. Besides, I work and live in Eastern Queens. Nice video, by the way!

[@jointransitassociation]

@@frankiecrocker Thanks, but a younger generation is taking over in Queens, and wants the train. This is coming from someone who worked in advocacy in Eastern Queens.

[@frankiecrocker]

@@jointransitassociation as a man in his early 60s, I won't be around to see this abomination! I thought like you once, then I got older, but you enjoy, youngster. I'll still watch your videos til the end of my time. 😇

[@frankiecrocker]

@@jointransitassociation afterall, I was 13 when they initially started the 2nd avenue subway but finished it when I was in my 50s🤣

[@Rdimbus1957]

The NYCTA is frequently investigated by the Federal Dept of Transportation: They routinely grossly overpay for the exact same items and construction projects that other transit systems do. To the tune of 40% or even greater. The NYCTA needs to correct its funding by charging riders the true costs of the service. Fares of $12.50 & $14 would be reasonable.

[@TiagoGomez-hb9te]

That would be terrible

[@TiagoGomez-hb9te]

No just make the fare $3.00

[@CompositesNG]

Money for Endless Wars and Migrant Issues and Nothing for New Yorkers and Americans.