What if the Saturn version of Daytona could run at 60fps...?

Last upload before Christmas. A hypothetical 'What If...?' question, using a bit of modern technology to try and answer it.
Virgin Megastore 90's Footage from
thekinolibrary
• 1995 Virgin Megastore ...
#DaytonaUSA #Sega #RidgeRacer

[@MrThunderwing]

*What Was So Great About Arcades in the 80's & 90's?* Mini video documentary discussing the above kzbin.info/www/bejne/qYiVpomsoZenhMU

[@MarcusTDM]

Got to admit I was a bit sceptical as to how this would turn out, but it look great, especially as it is running the original code. Even the arcade had pop up. Nice one.

[@jaymum23]

The Model 2 arcade had pop up but it was so much farther down the track. Like 4 times father at least. Take the Sonic Mountain in 777 Speedway- on Saturn, it pops into existence only a few car lengths ahead as you are initially entering the curve. In the arcade, it pops in as you pass under the slot machine arch. Waaay farther back. 😊

[@MarcusTDM]

@@jaymum23 yeah that is true.

[@bombjack1984]

It's amazing how closely you've described my own first experience of seeing the Saturn. One Saturday morning, walking into Nottingham Virgin Megastore (RIP) and working my way through the crowds, which were surrounding the jaw-dropping Ridge Racer running on PS1, sat right next to Daytona USA running on... the 32X?!? The difference was so massive that I had to push to the front of the queue to confirm that sadly, this jerky mess was indeed running on the Sega Saturn. On the opposite side of the display was PS1 Tekken side-by-side with the similarly janky VF1 Saturn port. Even as a diehard Sega fan, it was clear I'd be getting a PS1 first, and didn't pick up a Saturn until the amazing VF2 and Sega Rally ports appeared. Thanks for jogging this memory so clearly for me!

[@MrThunderwing]

Yeah, it was kind of depressing, as a die hard Sega fan, to see just how bad the Saturn looked next to the PS1 at launch, especially when the next wave of games that came out looked so much better.

[@EOTA564]

The VF port wasn’t that bad and the Japanese version was widely praised before the Saturn was released in the West. It came under more scrutiny when it became clear that the PS has the edge in 3D capabilities. The issue was that it wasn’t a perfect port and was a more dated looking game than Toshinden which had impressive 3D backgrounds (although was a very basic fighter beneath the sheen). Saturn VF has aged reasonably well. The lighting effects on the models are still pretty impressive for the system.

[@EOTA564]

Also, Tekken wasn’t a PS launch title and VF2 wasn’t too far behind? Although for some reason Europe didn’t receive VF2 until Jan 96 missing the holiday season. Way to go Sega.

[@ciredecgellar8232]

This is not my experience at all. So obviously I found Ridge Racer visually more impressive than Daytona (without asking myself if it was on 32X, let's not exaggerate) On the other hand, as soon as I tried both, I gave up on RR after 6 minutes, telling myself that this game was nothing more than a big technical demo and nothing else. Which it is, by the way. And when I saw Panzer Dragoon, I wasn't so worried about the upcoming games.

[@apollosungod2819]

Hey Thunderwing... for 1994 mass production consumer videogame hardware, the Sega Saturn in the form that we got it was indeed capable of rendering a close to the arcade Daytona USA at 30 frames per second while also being optimized for NTSC and PAL resolutions and framerates (so for PAL it would hit 25 fps correct?) so 30 fps was reachable instead of the 20fps the game that we got ended up being. I feel there is a side of the story not being told and that is that since the Project Saturn had been officially announced in Japan in January 1993 there had been some resistance to support it from Tom Kalinske of Sega of America the subsidiary branch (note that subsidiary does not mean headquarters as most Sega fans tend to confuse when they talk about SoJ and SoA, etc) as he immediately started telling the gaming press what the specs were gonna be which were different from the Japanese official announcement and were really his group's (SoA) suggestions to the Sega headquarters in Japan and when that failed he kept pushing pressure until he and Joe Miller were able to get their way and have their 32X manufactured because the 32X was never a Japanese idea or official project and unlike the SoA fanboy books tell it, it was never created by any fears Hayao Nakayama would have had as his primary concern was getting Project Saturn developed and launched. So right away the 32X starts hurting the Sega Saturn as not only are resources being split because apparently Tom Kalinske sales pitch sounded convincing that the Genesis was gonna survive and sell out the 32X units.. which never happened as 32X and game software sat on retail store shelves and also in warehouses which automatically results in total finacial losses, aka the graph line going into the negative as opposed to if only the Sega Saturn had been developed without no 32X popping up later at all. Therefore the first casualty killed or destroyed in reputation was actually Sega's Virtua Racing game which instead of helping launch the Sega Saturn, because a 32X game that no one wanted, nor no one saw the point in buying way back in both 1994 and 1995. Because we knew the hardware tech specs and preferred the full next gen hardware instead of SoA's mushroom add on. The next casualty destroyed by Sega of America's mid 90s management is the Sega Saturn itself by intentionally delaying the launch, instead of a week after the Japanese and getting it ready for North America and Europe, it was Sega of America's management claiming it was too expensive, other yapping and claims that launching it in April to May would make sense even though it did not. On that note the Sega Saturn Daytona USA was finished by April 1995 and back then the primary factor in Japanese games getting rushed was Sega of America's staff demands to have it ready for some holiday season or for some launch in the case of Daytona USA. As such SEGA-AM2 did what was humanly possible given the schedule challenge imposed by Sega of America's ideological beliefs as well as their intention to launch Sega Saturn months after the Japanese launch which was in May for us in North America and then you guys in PAL would get stuck with the further limitations. Therefore the only way to prevent the mishandling of the conversion of Daytona USA on Sega Saturn is to remove the pressure from Sega of America's management staff and allow SEGA-AM2 to focus on Virtua Cop instead of Daytona, however still planning Virtua Cop on the same release window and then work on Daytona USA with no rushing pressure... that way not only would the draw distance or pop issue would be either solved or minimized but a full 30 frames per second for NTSC and 25 fps for PAL would be reached and none of the rush job problems would have happened because the Sega Saturn can really get closer to the arcade version but only if the game devs were given enough time to do it. That pressure of having the game released by a certain date repeated again when Sega of America's staff basically demanded that Sega Rally would also be rushed which is why the game in North America has the sloppiest quality... because some big shot did not care at SoA and never took accountability for it, instead they blame Japan and the Saturn hardware. That also happened again with Daytona USA CCE as again it was Sega of America's staff who set the holiday release dates and why we again got a crap version of that while in Japan Daytona USA CE was released in February 1997 and then SOA staff still launched that version as Daytona USA CCE Netlink Edition but only for North America via mail order and later they struck again with Sega Saturn Touring Car Championship as that game ended up rushed nearly worldwide including Japan where the Japanese ending credits has a thank you to Bernie Stolar.. why? he was not a programmer, did not create Sega Touring Car Championship and was not even working at Sega when the arcade version released.

[@MrThunderwing]

Interesting read. I was aware of some of these issues, but some of this is stuff I suspected and you've pretty much confirmed. SOA always gets praised for 'saving Sega' during the Genesis time period, but I have no doubt their meddling and interference with the way SOJ worked, specifically the 32X and all these rush releases products, at the start of the 32bit era was a big part of Sega's downfall. I'd have loved to have seen a proper AM2 developed (instead of Time Warner) version of Virtua Racing at launch and then a proper, fully optimised, version of Daytona some time afterwards.

[@isamuu99]

Great video mate. Merry Christmas and looking forward to more of your content in 2022, and perhaps some online multiplayer in Daytona USA :)

[@MrThunderwing]

Cheers bro! Have you seen my Ridge Racer Type 4 Retro Review video yet?

[@MrThunderwing]

Oh, and Merry Christmas to you too!

[@MrThunderwing]

*How does Hydro Thunder look interpolated up to 60fps...?* kzbin.info/www/bejne/nobKZXeMm9qYZrc *Do you love all things Daytona related? Well check out my 2½ hour documentary I made all about the series* kzbin.info/www/bejne/f6inlGqXpJd-o6M

[@garycormack]

100% agree, first impressions were huge and Daytona looked like dog shit, even after i had committed to getting s Saturn for Christmas there was a feeling of regret as soon as i seen the silky smooth ridge racer on the ps1

[@MrThunderwing]

Indeed Gaz. It's why I held off buying a Saturn for a year and a bit. Well, that and the fact I couldn't afford one at launch.

[@segaboy128]

Awesome video love it!!

[@jollyrogerxp]

Something is off with the original SSF 20fps video. It's definitely choppier than it should be, and I don't mean the overall frame rate, but the distribution of frame time across frames in a second. Some frames persist far longer than others, and the result is a motion that proceeds in "bursts" rather than a more constant rate. For this reason, even when interpolating to 30fps and 60fps, the video still looks somewhat choppy, as the original video IMHO is inaccurate. This is likely due to the SSF emulation in this case, as I do not recall this being the case on the original hardware. It would be best to repeat this experiment using RAW footage captured from an actual Saturn... The video captured with Yaba Sanshiro is much more consistent in terms of frame rate, so I don't believe it's a matter of the track, but rather the emulator.

[@MrThunderwing]

I've got an actual Saturn, but I don't own Daytona on it... Plus, it's at the bottom of a box filled up with games and peripherals and would be a colossal ballache to try and get to...

[@jollyrogerxp]

@@MrThunderwing I do own both a Saturn and Daytona (the original and Japanese Circuit Edition), something is definitely off in the SSF-captured video

[@CaseTheCorvetteMan]

This is exactly what i have been thinking about for a while now, i posted on Saturn forums about it today, now i find your video! Not sure the Saturn could do it that well, but damn sure it could go close, and it might even be worth a look at 60i mode to reduce load on the system while still giving a higher resolution, interlaced only has to draw half the image each frame, so if it remained letterbox, it could be possible!! Just don't destroy the gameplay!! It was the best home version we had til PS3 and Xbox ports.

[@Java_ME]

Virtua Racing DX, SEGA Rally Champ, Virtua fighter & Tough contest

[@scju]

You have a graceful English accent, MrThunderwing. Keep it going!

[@MrThunderwing]

Thank you!

[@mardius9345]

Just imagine if we had a timeline where Tom Kalinske said to SOJ president we dont want the saturn, we want an add on for the genesis, then the president said you either support the saturn or you're fired, we might still be playing on a new SEGA system today 😢

[@MrThunderwing]

Damn straight. There's some interesting videos out there at the moment challenging the whole SOA saved Sega narrative with the Genesis, well worth looking up.

[@mardius9345]

@@MrThunderwing Good the truth is coming out slowly, TK was given a golden handshake & sailed off into the sunset while SEGA burned. TBF the SEGA president should have said to him you're either with us or against us 🤷

[@Ryuujin1078]

OK, it’s a seemingly decent little upgrade now I’m curious to see how far you can go before to do the same thing with the championship edition

[@MrThunderwing]

Y'know, I did consider giving that a try too, but it's 30fps has never bothered me in quite the same way as the OG Daytona's 20 has (17fps in PAL regions like me). I had to do a destructive new OS install on my PC awhile back (after a kettle tripped my mains, which absolutely fucked my PC and prevented it booting), so I don't actually have this software to do it anymore. I did do a Saturn Sega Rally 60fps interpolation vid after this one though.

[@heilong79]

Yep exact thing that happened to me, a few years later I got a Saturn and loved the thing with Sega Rally, Virtua Cop and VF2. The saturn was powerful at 3d but architechture was far too complex.

[@GamerGee]

Daytona USA was amazing in the arcade. Ridge racer was amazing in the home.

[@MrThunderwing]

Saturn Daytona was a visual misfire. Ridge Racer looked ace. Sega Rally eventually evened the playing field a fair bit, proving the Saturn could actually do decent looking 30fps racers.

[@GamerGee]

@@MrThunderwing I think the biggest issue was that Saturn was built to be a home system 32 super scaler woth sone 3D and PlayStation was built with doing 3D games in mind from the get go. You get ridge race ace combat tekken all looking like great ports while Saturn didn’t do that well. If only Saturn built itself off of the model 2 this would have been a different story

[@MrThunderwing]

@@GamerGee If things had played out a bit differently, Sega & Sony would've worked together on a 32bit console, which would've effectively eliminated what turned out to be their biggest rival. The Sega of Japan boss put the kybosh on the idea of a team up, thus sealing Sega's fate...

[@GamerGee]

@@MrThunderwing yep soj and soa had different ideas. Soa wanted another eternal champions but soj wanted virtua fighter. Americans didn’t care about that game like that. Especially after tekken.

[@str8duval]

I think the emulated footage of the original makes it look worse then it was

[@MrThunderwing]

Nope, the frame rate and resolution is exactly as it was on the original hardware. The difference might be that you'd have been playing it on a CRT TV back then. That used to hide some of the jaggies that are much more apparent on LCD HDTVs.

[@computadoramatriz6819]

@@MrThunderwing no, in real hardawre and crt tv not seen that bad.

[@redfoxbennaton]

Daytona USA: Championship Circuit Edition

[@MrThunderwing]

Great game. I used to own it. Any reason you've just mentioned it here with zero context...?

[@MisterSandmanAU]

CCE is a net negative on the Saturn Daytona experience, it changes the aesthetic too much

[@paulkent6846]

I recall buying a new UK Saturn with Daytona, Sega Rally, Virtua Cop and Virtua Fighter 2. Awesome set of games. As much as I wanted to ignore the frame rate and pop-up, I just couldn’t enjoy it, so Daytona disk stayed in the case, whilst Sega Rally kept my attention. Real shame, missed opportunity, understand the time constraints, but didn’t do the Saturn any favours.

[@MrThunderwing]

Exactly. The later ports showed the console could do decent 3D. Sega should've taken the time to get Daytona looking as good as possible rather than rush releasing it, they really didn't do themselves any favours there.

[@curtisrobinson-gc5dm]

In all fairness Daytona USA had a lot going on in the little space Saturn provided. The hornet took car damage in 4 different views at any time the player change views ridge racer did not. So we got more from Daytona with a cost 🤷🏿‍♂️

[@MrThunderwing]

The thing is though Curtis, it could've been so much better looking. You only need to look at the far more slick Sega Rally and Daytona CCE that both ran at 60fps to see how much better the frame rate could've been, using this hardware.

[@IronicSonic83]

I'll say, og Daytona doesn't look THAT bad. I enjoyed a lot back in the day. Love the experiment by the way. 60fps' Yabasanshiro's versiok Dayotona look great. Didn't like how CCE version looked

[@heathers6508]

it looks so smooth!! you've got it looking like the ps3 version

[@MrThunderwing]

IKR? The Dino Canyon footage at the end looks pretty darn good I reckon.

[@jakescartoons6045]

You’re joking, right?

[@MrThunderwing]

@@jakescartoons6045 It's not PS3 quality, but the Advanced track footage at the end is _signifcantly_ improved over the native Saturn footage.

[@jakescartoons6045]

@@MrThunderwing I highly disagree. My other comment on the whole interpolation subject goes into far more detail.

[@MrThunderwing]

@@jakescartoons6045 Your other comment ended up in my spam filter as you added a video link to it. I've un-spammed it as you clearly put a lot of time into writing it, but I would suggest you don't try to link to other videos in future comments to avoid them getting marked as spam.

[@slashrose3287]

60pfs means THREE times more polygons: SS first D. port was 40-50.000 quads max/s at 20 pfs, that would mean 120-150,000 quads/s at 60 fps...frankly I don't remember any SS even near those numbers. Ps1 too were rare 90.000/s triangles games. 60fps Daytona conversion was ahead of that console generation (N64 too), unless heavy geometry backgroud/cars cut were made.

[@slashrose3287]

Actually it's worst than my previous post: upscaling (at least double actual SS resolution) plus 3X framerate means a staggering SIX times fillrate than the actual OG conversion, something which SS (and probably PSX) cannot achieve. The perfect version shoud be an even more refined CCE version with car models AND handling from the original Daytona conversion, something which could/can be actually doable (in capable hands of course) and a great conversion itself.

[@ToaderTheToad]

@@slashrose3287 The Japanese Circuit Edition ("Championship" was dropped from the enhanced Japanese release) version has slightly closer handling to the original from what I've heard, for what that's worth

[@BlueEyedVibeChecker]

I do personally think the 20 fps was overblown here considering the "best of the generation " also ran at 20 frames per second, like Ocarina of Time, Mario 64, basically everything on the N64, and the PS2 did in the next generation at sub 480P too, but only the Saturn ever got hated on for it. Never understood why. Not that I don't understand the hate for 20 fps, I just don't understand why SEGA were the only ones who saw negative press for it.

[@MrThunderwing]

I don't think you can really compare Mario 64 or Zelda running at 20fps to an arcade racer - they're totally different genres, one of which is all about the conveyance of speed. F-Zero X on the N64 was 60fps, because Nintendo knew that sense of speed was important. The big issue with Daytona USA on the Saturn only being 20fps for me was that it was just _such_ a massive step down from the arcade's 60fps. It made the console look weak, when it was running side-by-side with PS1 Ridge Racer. Later Saturn arcade racers, like Sega Rally and Daytona USA CCE showed the console was perfectly capable of arcade racers that could run at 30fps and they looked so much better for it. If Sega had just taken a bit longer to develop Daytona originally, we could've got a much nicer looking version of it.

[@dbnpoldermans4120]

Excellent video! I'm playing Sonic racing transformed on my xbxo series x with fps boost now in 60fps. Also for this experiment, why not select manual transmission, leave it in first gear, race, capture the footage and just play it back at 300% speed.

[@MrThunderwing]

Ha, I know the interpolation program can go up to 120fps, not sure if it can go higher than that though.

[@sb6482]

In the west the mainstream who bought the playstation in 1996-1999 just didnt give a shit about hardcore racing games. it was the cinematic adventure games the ps1 had that sold it. Sega overestimated how much a wider audience cared about virtua fighter, daytona and the rest

[@jaymum23]

If Saturn Daytona looked as good as VF2 or Last Bronx with 60fps in high res mode it would have made people shit themselves. Even if, like those two ports, polygon counts had to be dramatically lower and whole background elements switched to 2D to maintain an illusion of full 3D, it would have looked much more like the arcade version to the untrained eye. It’s a shame it didn’t get this level of development time and effort.

[@MrThunderwing]

A proper high res 60fps version of Daytona would've been a dream come true back then.

[@jaymum23]

@@MrThunderwing Apparently it existed behind closed doors as a tech demo! This was very early in the game’s development and apparently the high res 60fps code was scrapped because the rushed launch didn’t allow time to optimize it for fully textured track scenery, AI cars, physics etc. I found a thread about this from 2008 a few years back. There was a screenshot of the demo in issue 12 of the UK Sega Saturn Magazine. In the screen, the background is sparse, but you have a shockingly detailed Hornet car model that appears to have all the polygons of the Model 2 version, and even better textures than the arcade version (like pseudo-Dreamcast level, similar to the Saturn Shenmue demo). Every single decal on the car was full color and legible. If a fully built Daytona like that came out, and we got a Saturn Shenmue release (seeing that Shenmue WIP is what made me realize a VF2-level if not Better port of Daytona could have been done!), then no one would question that it was the most powerful console of its generation. A pain to harness the power, but it was there…

[@MrThunderwing]

@@jaymum23 Y'know, funnily enough I actually happen to have a downloaded version of that issue of Sega Saturn Mag on my iPad for its Daytona CCE coverage, I was interested in awhile ago. Just had a quick look at it again and just seen the image you're referring to (somehow missed it on my initial read) - it's on page 15. Interesting...

[@retrostansolo]

Looks great I must say and if only that was on release we all would of been blown away for sure. I have a 60hz switch mode mod on my Saturn and to be honest Daytona looks and plays a lot better at 60hz than 50hz, you can tell a difference.

[@MrThunderwing]

Nice!

[@ruddgrandprix-speedrunraci8515]

5:07 Now, That's what they call the "Blast-processing".

[@M1XART]

The reason for low fps & draw distance is that Saturn had to handle 20 cars on screen at once. With 8 cars or so, it would run 30fps and drawing distance would also benefit as polygons used for those 12 cars could be utilized on enviroments. On Playstation we saw examples of this. Re-release of Ridge Racer had hi-rez 60fps time trial mode. While on Motorhead player could decide to have 4 cars on screen at 60fps or 8 cars on screen 30fps. But then again, Daytona would not really be Daytona if there would be less cars than 20-40 on screen. Thankfully, we have awesome Dreamcast-version.

[@MrThunderwing]

Yes, the Dreamcast version is great. I don't think this more cars equals fewer FPS theory works I'm afraid. Daytona USA Championship Circuit Edition on the Saturn ran at 30FPS and had the full 40 cars on 777 Speedway.

[@TheMamaluigi300]

@@MrThunderwing Fun fact, Jet Moto 2 had a Greatest Hits release with an increase in performance… by cutting down the race traffic by a huge amount.

[@ruddgrandprix-speedrunraci8515]

"What if the Saturn version of Daytona could run at 60fps...?" aka using the blast-processed accelerated-RAM cartridge.

[@MrThunderwing]

It'd be interesting to know if the 4MB ram cartridge could've made a big difference to something like Daytona or not, I'm only really familiar with the extra ram being used for stuff like fitting more frame of animation in for stuff like Capcom and SNK 2D fighters.

[@vidjenko8349]

Too bad AM2 didn’t know how to better utilize the SCU’s built in DSP to improve performance, but the bigger shame is that Sega didn’t include any of those fancy Martin Marietta military simulation tech they spent so much money on in their console 😡

[@TheBigExclusive]

That pop-in is just too much. It makes the game feel incomplete even with the boosted framerate and Anti-Aliasing.

[@h8GW]

Distracting as hell when you're supposed to be focusing on your racing line

[@SlyNine]

Play the C.E. Japanese version. The best version

[@parazels83]

Does Saturn have any racing game, which runs at 60 fps?

[@MrThunderwing]

I don't know about polygon racers, but the Saturn port of Outrun had a 60fps mode (which the original arcade didn't).

[@ronalds9478]

Although the game play hasn't held up, Battle Arena Toshinden was another game that gave the PS1 a ton of early sales that may have went to the Saturn other wise. Virtua Fighter was glitchy and looked like poo in comparison too it, the VF Remix that Sega put out later fixed the issues but it was too late. Tekken coming out and then FF7 being announced for the PS1 sooner after just snowballed sales from there.

[@MrThunderwing]

Tekken 2 and 3 looked great on PS1... And Soul Blade - greatest CG Intro movie ever on a 32bit console.

[@HellTantrumbull]

I'm sure some people in the hacking scene could do a hack of the game to up the FPS to 30 and maybe even 60 and probably do something about the draw distance but people would really need to motivate them to do it.

[@MrThunderwing]

If anyone could get this up to 60fps on the original hardware, I think we'd be entering the realms of pure witchcraft, I'd love to see it though. I guess a 30fps hack would be feasible though, seeing as Daytona USA CCE ran at 30fps - it's just a shame that that game looked so aesthetically different to the original arcade version.

[@MisterSandmanAU]

​@@MrThunderwingnot only looked, but also sounded, i hate the CCE soundtrack

[@credit0880]

Only if we could of gotten this, going further than 60, as you have stated before, goes up to 120, would of possibly been even more intriguing but probably would of been too smooth and making the 60 FPS Normal look worse like the 30 does to the 60. The Saturn was more powerful than the PlayStation and the N64 was more powerful than the saturn. I wonder what a possible N64 port would look like, the cartridge is too small so it could be one of those DD/ Cart combo games like CD + 32X. Maybe the Expansion Pak would of been needed too.

[@MrThunderwing]

Hrrrm, I can't recall mentioning anything about 120fps in this, but Frame GUI does go up that far. I did consider going beyond 60fps, but I thought it might start looking a bit weird. I'm not even sure if I can play video over 60fps on my monitor...

[@KimSamaVideos]

The low draw distance is a instant turn off for the Saturn version

[@krushingbro6620]

it was a disappoinment indeed it still didnt put me off the saturn though, and it didnt stop me rinsing the 80 lap endaurance mode on 777 speedway and getting lost in the glorious music "King of Speed"

[@WWammyy]

Daytona USA was scheduled to come out on the 32x so it makes me wonder if the version we got was a souped up port of the 32x game

[@MrThunderwing]

Interesting theory.

[@pedroassis64]

My main problem with the Saturn version is the car model, It's just looks off in comparison to the original arcade version, unfortunatly, you can't change models in the saturn version

[@Mitjitsu]

While this and Virtua Fighter no doubt had a detrimental effect on the perception of the Saturn at launch. I don't think it would have made a difference in the end, as better games that came out later that year like Sega Rally and Virtua Fighter 2 did not turn things around.

[@MrThunderwing]

I wonder though if those much better quality games (Sega Rally, VF2 & Virtua Cop) had been there right at the start, whether that positive buzz might have helped turn the tide in the Saturn's favour.

[@RsiX_soundsUK]

If the ram cart was available and sega used that and remade this version instead of the crappy CCE version i think they couldve gotten 30fps and sharper resolution . Nice to see what could potentially have been possible . Cheers

[@thesadmusicboy]

A long time ago I said in a Facebook group post that the Sega 32x was an unnecessary add-on for the Sega genesis. and that VR deluxe would be better in Sega Saturn ... It is almost a dream to see this version of Daytona USA in 50/60 fps. The draw distance is something I want to see improved. I'm going to keep waiting until someone takes over hacking the game so it can improve the game (or if there is a tech demo that shows a better version of 777 speedway)

[@MrThunderwing]

It's a real shame that Daytona USA CCE, which is visually so much better than the original, didn't retain the same arcade like physics or aesthetics, otherwise we'd have the best of both worlds. I still think CCE's a great game though.

[@TK1s_Big_Love]

I'm only half joking when I say that Saturn Daytona gave me pop-in related PTSD. I'm still extremely, stupidly, sensitive to distance clipping, LOD stuff even today. It took me a while to realise the impact of frame rate, resolution, etc, but every time something suddenly appears near the horizon in any game I involuntarily twitch 🤦‍♂

[@MrThunderwing]

Yeah, me too. There was really bad pop in on the Panzer Dragoon Remake on PS4 and it was really making me twitch. Back in the 90's I didn't actually know that a poor frame rate was the issue with Daytona, but my eye could just instinctively tell something was off.

[@jamiemclaughlin6899]

I think the Saturn Daytona conversion essentially killed the machine in the UK. Me and my friends had exactly the same experience as you and yours. Arcades were a pretty big deal in many UK towns and cities in the '90s and Daytona was a huge deal; we were all waiting to see the Saturn conversion. It killed the machine stone dead in this country imo.

[@MrThunderwing]

Riiiiiight?

[@ViciousAlienKlown]

There is an improved version of Daytona on the Saturn, it's the CCE version.

[@MrThunderwing]

Yes, I know, I used to own it back in the day. I really enjoyed it back then, but it comes under a lot of criticism for not playing anything like the original Saturn port or the arcade game.

[@ViciousAlienKlown]

Yeah, I had that game as well and it felt different in the gameplay. It controlled fine but lost something@@MrThunderwing

[@oldatarigamer]

It does look great but I didn't mind the frame rate on Daytona because it plays like Daytona. Also, there's the 360 version that runs pretty great.

[@MrThunderwing]

You misspelt PS3 ;) kzbin.info/www/bejne/n4Stq3Ztj7FmmLc

[@oldatarigamer]

@@MrThunderwing Its on the 360 as well.

[@MrThunderwing]

@@oldatarigamer I know dude, I was making a joke ;)

[@_lun4r_]

Wait which emulator was that which allows you to hear the SFX?

[@MrThunderwing]

Yaba Sanshiro

[@_lun4r_]

@@MrThunderwing thanks

[@_lun4r_]

@@MrThunderwing I found out Mednafen also lets you hear SFX and it emulates the game better, so I use that

[@SK91NO]

The PC version and Saturn are pretty interchangeable, you might be able to modify that one and it would work interchangeably, and maybe if I'm not mistaken It's been a long time but I think mednafen or one of the Saturn emulators could overclock, that might make a difference, gotta go back and double check that

[@MrThunderwing]

Yeah, I think the PC version was pretty much a straight port of the Saturn game, warts 'n all, with no improvement.

[@VirtuaIceMan]

@@MrThunderwing the PC port has an option for 3 levels of draw depth, and I think runs more consistently, possibly at 30fps, bit I'm not certain, as Sega Rally always looks smoother

[@FabricioMatiasVega9923]

maybe with 4 mb ram cartridge the satutn could handle higher fps and resolution. Similar to the n64 expansion pak (4 mb on stock + 4 mb of cartridge memory = 8 mb of total ram).

[@nathandaniels4823]

Looking at it another way, we could use Daytona Circuit Edition as a comparison point, as it both ran at 30fps *and* had much better draw distance….except at that point, the PlayStation was already doing that with almost no visible draw-in and either at 60fps or with dramatic lighting effects. 😕

[@MrThunderwing]

Yeah, I used to own Daytona Championship Circuit Edition back in the day. I was a big fan, despite the fact it played nothing like the original.

[@madcommodore]

The video there is not as smooth as a real Saturn, the biggest issue is the alarming pop up, the frame rate is absolutely OK on the NTSC versions. If you can't fix the pop ups, and Sega never could, then game will look rubbish....hence the huge increase in console sales when the pop up devoid Sega Rally hit the streets and magazine reviews in 96.

[@antarcticpenguin1151]

doesnt actually do me much of a favor, what it needs is a better render distance, a better model for the hornet, and two players.

[@vigi1antvort3x41]

What is that emulator called?

[@MrThunderwing]

I can't remember which one I used. It's either called Yabause or Yaba Sanshiro

[@vigi1antvort3x41]

@@MrThunderwing Ah okay, I'm struggling in figuring out what the best emulator is, but that one looks amazing compared to the ones I seen. Thanks for sharing gameplay too it looks great.

[@juststatedtheobvious9633]

Doubt a better frame rate would have made much difference. Ocarina of Time was 20 fps. The Final Fantasy games have shockingly low frame rates in the battle sequences. Audiences were generally very forgiving - just ask Rare and Iguana. But pop-in? Raw polygon counts were the newest dick measuring contest for an uninformed public scrambling to replace the bit wars. Everyone mocked N64 fog. The only game that really got away with a terrible draw distance was Silent Hill, and that's because they understood how to make it work for horror....plus it was a bit of visual poetry, in the way ashes fell like snow, that close to Hell. Even the movie and tie in comics had to retain the bad draw distance, so important was it to the experience. The only way Sega could have competed was by delaying the Saturn until they had the SGL ready to go. And even that had a high cost to every quad - it would have been an improvement, but enough to win the in-store comparison?

[@MrThunderwing]

I think you're underestimating the importance of a decent frame rate to an arcade racer compared to something like a Zelda or Final Fantasy game, especially when the arcade version of Daytona had already set the benchmark at 60fps.

[@juststatedtheobvious9633]

@@MrThunderwing Perhaps. But there are racing games that reached 60fps in that generation. How well did they fare? RC De Go? Rapid Racer? Muppet Racemania? Running Wild? The only one anyone seemed to really notice was F-Zero 64 - the 7th best selling racing game on Nintendo's console. Behind even Cruisin' and F1 World Grand Prix. It tied with Derby Stallion '99 on PS1 - the second most popular horse racing simulation on the platform. Also, behind 2 NASCAR games and the Jet Moto series. So while I understand there was an audience for a 60fps arcade racer (It's the only reason I know of Rapid Racer, and F-Zero 64 is my favorite in the series), I'm not convinced it should have been Sega's top priority at launch, even if they had the power to pull it off. 30fps with a better draw distance would have served them far better. (Although ideally, there'd be settings so you could choose what's important to you.)

[@MrThunderwing]

@@juststatedtheobvious9633 I'd have been happy with a launch version of Daytona that ran at 30fps and had an improved draw distance (and a 2 player split screen mode). Sega Rally (and later Daytona CCE) showed that the system could do it, it's just a shame Sega rushed out the original Daytona instead of getting it looking as good as possible. I've never heard of Rapid Racer, I'll have to check it out. F-Zero GX is my favourite in that particular series of games. Now goddamn, _that's_ one helluva good looking game (and insanely fast too).

[@axguzman-gq9fz]

Y si en lugar de los 20 coches fuera solo competir con 5 coches????

[@MrThunderwing]

Ehhhh, it wouldn't be an ideal solution, but if it improved the game's performance, then maybe something to think about. Don't forget, Sega Rally only ever had 5 opponents on the track at any time, and the most you'd normally ever encounter on screen is 2 at a time... and that game's regarded as a classic! 😉

[@IronTiger]

That sharpening filter really ruined the image quality. Even the unfiltered image isn't representative of how we would have seen it on the CRT screens of the time, but the sharpening turns it into something else altogether.

[@jakescartoons6045]

Hope you've got some popcorn, because I've got another long comment. Okay, so I think we both can agree that Saturn Daytona's frame rate could have been better, and I'm sure the game would have looked amazing in 60 fps. However, I'm going to be blunt here and say that using an interpolation AI software is the worst way of going about it. This may be simply because I have extensive experience with traditional hand-drawn and 3D animation, but I've really come to hate this trend of people taking a cartoon or animated movie and using an AI to interpolate the footage and increase the frame rate (I know this is a video game and not a cartoon, but what I'm saying still applies here). The main reason the software isn't very good at what it tries to do is because when you actually stop and study the in-between frames, you'll notice way too many blurry or pixelated artifacts that, for lack of a better word, make the video look like crap. Even then, you don't really need to pause the video to notice this blurriness because it looks just as blurry even in motion. To be honest, it kinda hurts my eyes. Really, the only way to get a true 60 fps experience with this game would be if someone were able to mod the game heavily, doing things such as simplifying environmental detail, lowering the resolution, making extensive use of the Saturn's VDP2 chip, and making it so you only race one opponent just like in that turbo version of Ridge Racer (I actually believe this is possible on the Saturn with enough effort). Otherwise, I personally never had a problem with the 20 fps on Daytona USA. It may be a low frame rate, but at least it's very consistent with that 20 fps. Heck, even "The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time" on the Nintendo 64 is also locked at 20 fps, and that's one of the highest rated games of all time! The point is that lower frame rates aren't a bad thing. It all depends on how the developer uses it. If you want a better explanation for why this trend of using interpolation software to increase frame rate is bad, I highly recommend checking out this video from a KZbinr named "Noodle". kzbin.info/www/bejne/lXy1k5Kni56Dask

[@MrThunderwing]

Hey, like I said, it was just an experiment. I totally disagree about the 20fps thing being acceptable though, especially in a racer. It may be OK for something like Zelda but it really kills the sense of speed and fluidity for me in a racing game. 30fps is the bare minimum I think is acceptable, and as both Sega Rally and Daytona CCE proved, that was well within the Saturn's capability. Digital Foundry do an interesting video all about how important decent frame rates are.

[@MrThunderwing]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/iqfCeISEnZ53bJo

[@jakescartoons6045]

@@MrThunderwing I've actually already seen that video. Really, my only issue is the interpolation software. Since it was programmed with live-action footage in mind, it seems to make anything with a more cartoony appearance look worse. Daytona USA on the Saturn may not technically be cartoony by the standards of the console, but the visual simplicity combined with the lack of in-game motion blur is what really causes the AI to mess up. Finally, this is more of a personal thing, but I never had a problem with the frame rate of the game. For me, 15 fps is the minimum frame rate I'll accept, especially if the game in question is a really old 3D game (I believe Virtua Racing on the Genesis/Mega Drive ran at that exact speed). Again, I didn't grow up during this era of gaming, but sometimes can't help but be impressed by some of this old technology sometimes. In my opinion, the fact that Daytona USA was able to run on the Saturn at all is actually quite impressive, given the fact that the game has to render 40 cars at once, and the fact that the driving physics are far more deep than games like "Super Mario Kart" or "Ridge Racer". In hindsight, the frame rate definitely could have been better, as proven by "Sega Rally". However, as someone who has a massive amount of appreciation for video game history, Daytona USA on the Saturn will always be an important of it, and I always have a blast whenever I pop it in my Saturn. Besides, Bubsy 3D looks far worse. At least Daytona had actual texture mapping. Also, I know this is slightly late, but merry Christmas!

[@MrThunderwing]

@@jakescartoons6045 Belated Merry Christmas to you too Jake!

[@anticalgary]

This was a fun video

[@acecarrera1]

Even though I can see the difference 60 fps makes, the 30 fps version still looks like the original Saturn version to me, Ridge Racer is still smoother in comparison, as if it runs at 60 fps.

[@MrThunderwing]

Yeah, the 30fps upgrade didn't make a maahosive difference really. The original Ridge Racer, the version I'm using in the video was only 30fps. It didn't get a 60fps makeover until Ridge Racer Hi-Spec/Turbo.

[@scorsyshotsy9015]

@@MrThunderwing True, 30fps looks more the like the original Saturn port (not sure if it runs better on American Hardware because NTSC-U runs at 60hz compared to PAL at 50hz) but I’m getting off topic

[@MrThunderwing]

@@scorsyshotsy9015 I think the I read somewhere that the extra 10hz of the NTSC version did make it look a smidge faster.

[@RobsonRoverRepair]

I'd have taken 30fps with less popup tbh. Cce edition was great but handled terrible

[@MrThunderwing]

Yeah, 30fps with less pop-up would've been great.

[@UwUnossa-vini]

Cara, se ele lançase em 96 no mínimo o port seria muito melhor 😢😢

[@DenkyManner]

I can't see any difference. I don't think the interpolation worked.

[@MrThunderwing]

It's far more noticeable on the Dinosaur Canyon track at the end of the video than it was on 777 Speedway for some reason.

[@SuperSZ]

You are watching the video at 240p mate 😂

[@EOTA564]

There’s no doubt that Ridge Racer on PS looks far better but the Saturn’s graphical limitations were compounded by the fact that Daytona was still one of the flashiest looking arcade games around in 95, far more impressive than Ridge Racer. There are huge 3D objects emerging from the distance around every corner. There was nowhere for the Saturn to hide. Sega Rally arcade was less flashy and this allowed the Saturn to hide some of its limitations. But I was so happy the first time I saw that had included the helicopter on the Desert stage.

[@negative1723]

never liked ridge racer. so i got the saturn, daytona, sega rally, vf2 and more as they were released. played daytona like crazy, and even the champion ship edition. i didn't care about frame rates, to me it was all about the gameplay. and sega was always able to recreate that. the dreamcast version of daytona at 60fps looked great, but didn't play as well. later ||| | | | | | | ne gative 1

[@MrThunderwing]

Dreamcast Daytona didn't play well if you were using a pad, but I've subsequently found it plays great with a racing wheel - incredibly closely to the arcade version in fact. kzbin.info/www/bejne/i4C4n3mYj5mEi8U

[@MagisterHamid]

I was there in 1995. My local video game store had a Japanese PlayStation running ridge racer next to a Saturn with Daytona. The difference was huge. My main concern with Daytona was not the 20 fps but rather the awful popins. I ended up buying a PS1.

[@simon41978]

I know Daytona has it's fans (you, for example) but I prefer Ridge Racer. It's more impressive graphically, the sound is amazing... The amazing PS one version would always be more attractive to buyers. I bought a Saturn though on Day 1 (when it was released in Japan) as I was addicted to Street Fighter II and felt the CPS games would come soon. They didn't and for a whole year I waited. I got very bored and swapped my Saturn for a Neo Geo CD. I did regret it when I went into the import game shop in my city and saw Street Fighter Zero, Darius Gaiden and others. But Capcom were very tardy getting their games out on Saturn. A CPS1 Street Fighter II collection should have been available on Day 1. My suspicion is that Sega were very late giving the development systems to 3rd parties and so those 3rd parties couldn't do that. It may or may not be true. It's just a hypothesis.

[@MrThunderwing]

Ridge Racer has indeed got great music and in terms of the 32bit ports is definitely the visually superior game. In the arcade though I think Daytona is definitely the better looking title. The Capcom fighters were a big draw to the Saturn for me too, in particular the, at the time I got the console, upcoming release of Street Fighter Alpha 2. To this day it remains one of my favourite ever Street Fighter games, the Saturn's 6 button pad was just so good for stuff like that. Such a shame all the ram expansion stuff stayed JPN only, like X-Men Vs Streetfighter, Marvel Superheroes Vs Streetfighter and Vampire Saviour. Man, I'd've killed to play those at home back in the day.

[@parappatherapper4141]

SSF emulator must be shit, because I've been playing Daytona recently on original hardware and no way it looks as choppy as you show in the video. Especially in the first course... I'm not saying it's a perfect port, because it isn't, but I can confirm it's far more playable and much less unpleasant to the eyes than what is shown here.

[@MrThunderwing]

Someone else has suggested it might be a regional thing, apparently the UK/Euro version runs at an even slower frame rate than the US game (about 17 FPS), which might be why it looks choppier. SSF is generally pretty good, it runs faster looking games like Sega Rally and Panzer Dragoon Zwei without issue.

[@parappatherapper4141]

@@MrThunderwing oh, sure, just noticed the KM/H instead of MPH of the NTSC version. Play the American version of the game then, I assure you it's very playable, it is the one I use and I really like it, much more than the remixes that followed. Maybe that version works better with your experiment of processing the video at 30 and 60fps...

[@MrThunderwing]

@@parappatherapper4141 If I'm playing the game proper these days, I tend to just stick with the PS3 version: kzbin.info/www/bejne/oKKraoubrphgpdk

[@SlyNine]

There were far better versions of Daytona USA for the saturn. like the Japanese C.E. edition.

[@MrThunderwing]

I had the Euro version of Championship Circuit Edition and I really enjoyed it, but a lot of people are critical of it because the handling didn't feel anything like arcade and OG Saturn Daytona. The Japanese Circuit Edition had handling changes, but people still say (never tried it myself) the handling is still nothing like the arcade.

[@mikeyoung5722]

Leave it on native... you can’t polish a...

[@MrThunderwing]

Wind Squid...? Isn't that a Classic Game Room thing?

[@naderkaddoura8588]

This port is the best ever even much better than the arcade🤣.

[@MrDukeeeey]

The sega saturn was a shit piece of hardware. Ridiculously over complicated design. Stuck somewhere between a 2D machine with 3d as a bastardised after thought. To be fair though the draw distance was pretty bad on the actual model 2. The pop in of the geometry is pretty jarring.

[@MrThunderwing]

Yeah, as you rightly mention, even the Model 2 board itself still had some pop-up issues. At least they finally sorted that with the PS3 and 360 ports.

[@jakescartoons6045]

Bro, what are you talking about? The Saturn was amazing!

[@credit0880]

@@jakescartoons6045 it was at least more powerful than the PlayStation. Though most of the power was really Underutilised untill later on. The fact it was expensive too just, didn't really do any good