What Is A Fill Station? - Scuba Tech Tips: S08E09

[@pricediver]

this channel is honestly the most helpful SCUBA channel out there. Alec is such a amazing teacher

[@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter]

Thanks Price. Alec

[@HoneyBrookFreshAir]

the man is an encyclopedia!

[@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter]

Thanks for that my friend.

[@ABATEDIRT]

Alec, thank you so much for putting these videos on, the wife and I really do enjoy learning from you and your experiences. We greatly appreciate all you do. Yet we have joked around on what Kevin really looks like based on your descriptions. So, we will continue watching and listening and learning and looking for more clues as to what or who Kevin really.. Tanks again

[@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter]

There's a good reason why Kevin is the cameraman! Thanks for watching. Alec

[@antoinev5144]

Those videos are absolutely great! Thanks a lot for taking the time to explain all that.

[@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter]

I hope you learned something Antoine. Thanks for watching. Alec

[@magiclarry7688]

You sir are a wealth of knowledge. Thank you fo sharing this. I could watch this kind of stuff for hours.

[@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter]

You gotta get out more Larry! However, I appreciate your support and hope you're picking up some good ideas. Alec

[@alexwolford2084]

Can’t wait for all of them.

[@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter]

Thanks for watching Alex. Alec

[@MrVincehannah]

In your next air related videos, I would be very interested in the purification process and how the air (not just the Nitrox mix) is tested and confirmed to be clean. Perhaps some tips and technologies for testing your air for contaminants from those ‘holiday’ dive shops on the beach, just for peace of mind... Thanks for the info as always!

[@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter]

There are self-testing kits available. Check out Drager. Dive shop owners would usually use a third party (meaning someone NOT related to the store business) for their air tests. A sample is sent off and tested in the lab. The results are sent back. At one time dive stores even packed their own purification filters but that practice is almost gone too. Liability has become a major concern in the scuba business. I'll see what I can do on those topics. Thanks Joe. Alec

[@Bruiser38]

Thanks Alec, good stuff!

[@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter]

Thanks Bruiser. Alec

[@serofu]

Alec, thank you for producing all of your wonderful videos. I started watching about a year ago and look forward to every new video you release. Keep up the great work and safe diving brother.

[@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter]

Thanks very much Patrick. I just hope y'all find something useful to make your diving more enjoyable, more fun or maybe safer. Take care. Alec

[@lordgman1]

Thanks for the wonderful video Alec! I was wishing you had showed more of the fill station in the last video you did, but I understood that it wasn't the main focus of that video. This one was a nice surprise! love the technical side of things, especially the side of dive shops that the customer wouldn't normally see. Looking forward to the Nitrox video too, as that still seems like alchemy to me!

[@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter]

Nitrox seems mysterious to most divers. It's hard to completely grasp something that you can't see. I'll try to make it easy to understand. Thanks for watching. Alec

[@rickkinney2544]

Appreciate the information. Always interesting. Thanks.

[@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter]

Thanks again Rick. Alec

[@Kebekwoodcraft7375]

Yes I was waiting for it thanks ! Keep the mojo in the groove 🎸🥁🎷

[@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter]

Thanks Dog. Alec

[@peterneubauer9712]

Another great video. Thank you so much Alec and Kevin. looking forward to learning more about Nitrox.

[@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter]

Thanks Peter. Alec

[@swagner58]

I'm in the process of designing and building completely new fill station arrangement for the shop I'm at. Your video is extremely helpful in getting a good grip on just how I'm going to physically implement the panel. Since I'm implementing banked Nitrox 32 with continual blending with a stick to complement our current partial pressure blending I've also got your nitrox video cued up. Thanks for giving me great ideas on how to spend the shop owners money. (and I've got the same Analox chart at the Nitrox station and Trace Analytics does our air analysis also)

[@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter]

Also watch my video on how EAN is made which will show more tips on fill station setup. Alec

[@greetjevandale]

Nice video Alec! I always enjoy them so keep it up! My question for today: how did you fill your tank back in the 50s? Thanx in advance!

[@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter]

I got my local fire station to fill them for 25 or 50 cents a tank for a long time. A

[@jacquespoirier9071]

your board is a paradize of Swagelok fittings and valves, very expensive plumbing fittings but doing their job very nicely

[@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter]

I think you're right. I should send them a picture of the board to use in their catalog. Take care. Alec

[@amcaesar]

Wow! All the things I never knew to ask!

[@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter]

Thanks Bill. I'm an 'asker'; always have been. When I don't understand something, I ask. Many people simply overlook things that they don't understand and carry on. I trip on those things. It's been painful at times since so much today is highly complicated but I love a simple, clear explanation that at least puts my curiosity to bed. Alec

[@alaind831]

Alec, talking like an engineer now... I always wonder how things work too, taking it apart and hope I'm not left with an 'extra' part when I put it back :)

[@Will-ol9lp]

Thank you for answering my question

[@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter]

My pleasure. Hope it helps. Alec

[@golanpeled8960]

I love watching your videos

[@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter]

Thanks Golan. I love to hear you say that. Alec

[@xanderdavis15]

Alec, Thanks for explain the complex system of how a fill station works. I know that i will most definitely be recommending this video to my customers. You did mention for a brief second the debate of volume vs. pressure and I was wondering if we could get a future tech tip on that? As a dive store employee and a scuba instructor, it can be difficult at times explaining that concept to new divers. Just wondering how your approach was on it. Safe diving!! Alex D.

[@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter]

Thanks for your comment Alex. It's always nice to hear from a scuba industry pro. I too have struggled to explain the difference and don't know yet if I have the answer. One thing you might include in your explanation is that "you can't breathe pressure and you can't measure volume". What I mean is that air volume (the amount of air available) is what you need to stay alive underwater but that's hard to measure. Air pressure is easy to measure but it's of no use to you in determining how much air you have - 15psi or 3000psi - you can live with either. So we need to have volume but can't measure it; we can measure pressure but we can't breathe it. On second thought that may not help! Oh well. Good luck. Alec

[@SeattleRingHunter]

Always a great presentation Alec. Loving my Bauer Junior II compressor at my home... 🤓 Cheers, #SeattleRingHunter

[@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter]

Bauer is one of the best - not cheap but worth every penny. Good luck. Alec

[@SeattleRingHunter]

Alec Peirce Scuba absolutely correct Bauer is one of the best system on the market. Impeccable German engineering and time proven solution for the breathable air compressed gas market. Exactly why I sourced the Bauer Junior II as it quickly made no since to me to purchase some hobbled together Chinese pile of crap with.no real spare parts or service support. Reality is this is a life support system and no one wants to compromise breathable air. Bauer backs their products with precious spare parts for a very long time after the product reaches the market and has such a large footprint in the market that their units are very well known worldwide making for a much improved equation for the long term investment in their systems. Have been enjoying my Junior II for many months now and always appreciate the opportunity to fill my own tanks at home. What a game changer, as life is busy enough these days. Got a crazy good deal on a previously owned never used unit for the win!

[@normanwitzler9665]

Getting a tank filled in this century is a lot more relaxed than it used to be. Once upon a time, the operator would place your tank in a heavily reinforced concrete tub of water and stand clear as he slooowly worked the cascade valves. If your tank exploded the shards would theoretically be directed straight up. Also, the water bath served as a coolant.

[@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter]

The water bath is gone for good reasons Norman. It didn't help cool the tank and it created some problems too. I have some videos that explain that. I think the filling procedure is more relaxed now. There are very few problems now with tanks. Fill operators are all well-trained and the tanks are better regulated. Take care. Alec

[@gpilatti]

Looking forward for the nitrox video! Also, it would be great if you show us the background of this filling station, the cascade, compressor, filters etc. And what about that yellow thing hanging on the wall that had "Nitrox stik" written on? 🤔

[@speklappaulie]

Thanks for the interesting video! Question, what are the advantages of using banks instead of filling straight from the compressor? Keep up the good work

[@bas6983]

Speed of filling.

[@alaind831]

good question because my dive shop uses a big compressor and can fill a single 100HP tank in under 10min which gets it quite hot so I'm always nervous and asking them to fill multiple at once (they have 9 wips of different pre-set pressures, 3 low/med/high). It's loud, but then doesn't require expense of big air banks and I assume ongoing hydro/viz test they I assume require - Alec I assume those big 4500psi air banks need same hydro/viz our tank require ? gotta be pricey...

[@rimotivri]

underwater things are awsome. Cool.

[@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter]

You have no idea! Thanks for watching. Alec

[@ScubaGirl68]

Something which my club has implemented is an "arrestor wire" system. Essentially a strong wire is fixed to the walk and follows the length of each charging hose/whip. The wire continues a little longer and a dog clip is attached to the end. The clip is secured with a number of cable ties along the length of the charging hose/whip and suitable metal retainers are used to secure the dog clip. When you attach a cylinder for filling, the dog clip is then wrapped around the neck of the cylinder prior to opening any valves. Should something go wrong and the hose become detached from the cylinder valve being filled, then it won't whip around dangerously. It takes a little getting used to using t at first, but it works well. The length of wire used for wrapping around the pillar valve had to be increased a little to accommodate twin sets. For single cylinders, you need to wrap it around twice.

[@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter]

Interesting idea. Sounds good. Thanks ScubaGirl. Alec

[@markashcraft9624]

not a diver , but pretty dam cool , never thought about it , lean something all of the time !

[@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter]

See how smart you will get watching this old guy. A

[@MogleCorp]

Thanks, Alec. I pick up new skills every time I see your videos. Very useful as a new beginner. Should I get my own air compressor on my sailing boat? If so, what type of compressor should I get? On a 42 feet sailing vessel, space is limited. I could find space for a compressor, can I build a fill station onboard? Not doing any sophisticated diving (jet). The alternative is too keep a few tanks onboard. Any advice?

[@Yggdrasil42]

My reply is probably way too late, but in case anyone else wonders: A small compressor for nautical use is the Bauer Oceanus. A cheaper, smaller, but less resistant to salt and lean angle, compressor would be the Bauer PE100. You can get a petrol version if your power system can't handle the amps. Definitely get professional advice before buying. For regular air diving that'll be sufficient (filling a tanks takes 20-30 minutes and they're noisy). If you want Nitrox you'll need to bring an oxygen tank too and a nitrox stick to mix the air and oxygen. Nitrox sticks can be built in small suitcase sizes. You'll need to monitor it during the fill (because oxygen) but it'll reliably get you Nitrox up to 40%. A few tanks are cheaper to bring along, so it depends on available space and amount of dives you want to do.

[@Will-ol9lp]

Hi Alec Can you also discuss using a membrane storage as well for EANX? Thank you Will

[@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter]

NITROX production using the membrane method is less common than others but it's quite legitimate. It is quite interesting and based on the fact that, depending on the temperature and the pressure of the air, as air passes through a membrane, the oxygen and the nitrogen pass at different rates. It's possible therefore to pass air into a membrane and, with the careful use of O2 sensors, separate some or all of the nitrogen from the air leaving - enriched air! While more efficient in terms of energy use it's also more expensive and requires considerable expertise. You can get a fair grasp by looking at the NUVAIR website. Their system is probably best known in scuba diving. Take care. Alec

[@alaind831]

all the dive boats I've been on in the channel Islands (Santa Barbara SoCal area) use membrane Nitrox I believe and get used a LOT, especially on multi day trips where it's not uncommon to do 6 dives a day. One time something went wrong and I had 45+% O2 in my tank so we had to dump and refill to 32...The few shops that do Nitrox locally typically have pure O2 tanks and pre-mix - buddies and I don't go to those that do pure O2 fill as it's a royal pain and $$ to have a dedicated O2 clean tank. Have them mix it for me instead! (supposed if you want other than typical 32% you have little choice).

[@Str8Flossin]

Alec, Apologies in advance if you’ve answered this question or if you find it odd! Is there any risk of virus tainted air ending up in your cylinder from the dive shop fill station? Also, thanks for the Force fin reply. I’m going to upgrade to the Nova 👍🏽

[@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter]

No risk to divers from LDS fills as they generally use very big 3 stage compressors. The heat generated from compressing the air is sufficient to kill COVID and any other virus. Otherwise there would be no air fills or diving due to contaminated air and that has not happened. Take care Judson.

[@owenmougenot712]

Hi Alec. You talked about the Cascade bottle system but you didn't elaborate on why the prefill and topup? I understand that having the main tanks filled to a high pressure so you don't start the compressor every time a tank is filled. I am guessing that it is a safety thing ? or is it an efficiency thing to prefill to 2700 psi first? You mentioned that you are back working again, You just couldn't stay home I guess. Thanks Owen M

[@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter]

Wellll. I wouldn't say I'm back to work. That might be a stretch. Diana and Kevin keep me so busy that I've been thinking of going back to work so I can get some rest!!! Take care. Alec

[@ScubaGirl68]

There are a number of good reasons for using a "Bank" system, such as what is shown here. A compressor would fill a small cylinder very quickly. In the process, it will get very hot. This is partially due to the action of the compressor, but also to do with the gas becoming compressed in your cylinder. The gas inside will then cool down and you won't get a full fill. This is more noticeable on the smaller cylinders/tanks, but is also present on the larger ones too. By using a Bank, the gas from the compressor has a chance to cool down a little as it sits in the bank cylinders. You can also store the gas at a higher pressure than you are going to fill any customer cylinders. The gas filling your cylinder can warm up, but not as much.

[@chrisowen9638]

Great explanation, but what filters are you using, and oil less compressor or not? Thanks.

[@chrisowen9638]

Also is there a tool that can be hooked up to compressor to test air quality that's fairly cheap. Thanks.

[@KimonFrousios]

Air warms up when it is being compressed. Coming out of a high pressure tank into a lower pressure tank, it actually cools down. Unlike filling directly from the compressor, filling from an airbank should not require cooling time, unless the bank was recently topped up and is still hot.

[@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter]

It may look that way but, assuming the cascade bottle is at room temperature, even if it's at 4500 psi, when the air flows into your tank at low pressure, the pressure in your tank goes up and so does the temperature of your tank. While it's true that the temperature of the cascade bottle may go down, that's of no consequence to you. The relative temperature of the two tanks, yours and the cascade, is not related. Assume that the two tanks were located a long ways from each other. As air is removed from the cascade bottle, it cools. But as air is compressed into your tank, it heats up. Cascade or compressor, the air in your tank is being compressed - it gets hot. Alec

[@KimonFrousios]

@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter The air already in my tank compresses and heats up, but the air joining it from the bank decompresses and cools down. Which effect is bigger? Hmmm... Does the amount of air in my tank affect the outcome? If my tank contained vacuum, clearly the net change would be cooler as there would be nothing to compress. Right? So maybe near-empty tanks cool down when filled from banks, but half empty ones warm up?

[@jacquespoirier9071]

@@KimonFrousios as the pressure increases in your tank, the temperature rises , it is thermodynamics and not related to the air source, there the importance to let your tank cools then top up, a way many dive shops do ti to overpressurize the tank by about 300 PSI to compensate for this phenomenon.

[@KimonFrousios]

@@jacquespoirier9071 The air warms up in the tank as the pressure rises, yes, but the air coming in is cooler than ambient since it was just decompressed. I guess it is not cooler enough to counteract the heat from the compression. It's not worth the time digging out my textbooks to refresh my memory on equations and do the math, I was just wondering out loud at what tank starting pressure the cooling effect equals or outweighs the warming effect. If the tank started at vaccum (unrealistic), the only air in the system would be the air transfered from the bank and it would suffer a net decompression and thus cooling and the tank would be cooler than the bank was before filling. So between that extreme example where the tank temperature should drop and the typical starting tank pressure of 50bar where the tank temperature rises, there must be a tipping point where the tank temperature does not change. That assumes of course the ideal (unrealistic) situation where heat is not exchanged while the air travels through the long pipes from bank to tank.

[@jacquespoirier9071]

@@KimonFrousios a factor omitted there is crucial on the temperature rise, it is the time involved in the compression cycle, on a Diesel engine, the compression ratio is about 20:1 so at BDC, the pressure in the cylinder is about atmospheric pressure, at TDC, the ambiant pressure is about 20 bar ( about 300 PSI) minimum, with the heat expasion of the gas, about 500 PSI and the temperature is at least 1000 deg F( 500degC )so the fuel ignites spontaneously, the factor here is that there is about no time to transfer heat to the surrounding parts( about 1/30 second). on the compresor itself, you can encounter such temperatures as the compressoin process is about adiabatic but the intercoolers and aftercoolers takes care of that ( it is the reason why a diving compressor that pumping oil carbonizes it in the second and third stages). when filing a diving tank, the compression heat takes effect at a much lower rate so the temperature rise is much lower but sufficient to cause a pressure drop when the tank is alone for a period of time

[@jshrawder49]

Great info! Who does the certification for the air on the card you were showing? Is it a government department or is it a testing company?

[@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter]

It's a private air certification company licensed by the government. Good eye. Alec

[@bristol8920]

Thanks Alec learning a lot from your vids.... Also looking forward to the Nitrox video, being old school it's a bit of a mystery ....... thumbs up matey........

[@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter]

NITROX can seem mysterious. Perhaps that's why there are so many misconceptions and mistruths about it. I'll try to clear it up a bit. Thanks for watching bristol. Alec

[@albertrodriguez6539]

Hi Alec. Im down in florida and filling up my tanks is getting harder and expensive. Do you know a good and safe way to make my own fill station at home ? If that is a real possibility. Thanks

[@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter]

Personal filling stations are not cheap to own and maintain but if you're interested, first watch Portable Air Compressors S09E01. Give you an idea of which size might fit your needs. Remember that filling others tanks cheaper than a LDS can help pay some costs. A.

[@Kebekwoodcraft7375]

I would like to see this nice truck video !

[@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter]

Huh? What truck? A

[@Kebekwoodcraft7375]

Nice truck = nitrox with French ear 👂 who catch slower than the speaker !

[@muhammadadibabwahab2446]

how about the practice of dipping the tank in water to cool it down?

[@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter]

If your tank is hot, dipping in cold water (the lake?) is ok I suppose. But putting a scuba tank in water when filling it a waste of time and can lead to problems too. Alec

[@muhammadadibabwahab2446]

@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter I seen it all the time in my place. The operator would put the tank in water while filling. Kinda heat exchanger kinda deal. And most don't use bank (I had never seen those banks ) as you described. Straight from the compressor.

[@enigmacrk200]

All the fire departments down here fill there tanks in water baths for safety.

[@Slarti]

If you are taking air from a 2.7k PSI tank into an empty tank, won't you end up with less than 2.7k PSI in the previously empty tank due to the extra volume that 2.7k PSI has to equalise over?

[@clockworkvanhellsing372]

He will, check out his video on multi stage gilling systems. :)

[@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter]

For sure. Not everyone gets it so best to watch my video on Cascade Filling. It should answer all your questions. A

[@cbx500cbx]

Do scuba shops fill tanks for pcp air guns? I need 5000 lbs to fill 3000 gun tank?

[@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter]

Most will if the tanks are marked as 'paintball only' or similar.

[@leeneeslynys774]

This man, loves what he does. But, i think he needs to sell properties. I would buy anything from him. any ways 👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽 nice, proper explanation

[@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter]

I sold lots of scuba gear but not real estate Lee.

[@leeneeslynys774]

@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter that's a shame think you cold be a millioner if you sell properties. I got a question. I got brand new bauer junior 2 gas, Air filling Station. I Live, next to baltic see (europe) side city. with 300kk population, but the thing is, we got just 6 months diving season. And just two business refills divers ballons in that city Q. 1. is it makes sence to start my business? Q. 2. Who else apart from divers and paintballers uses your services? Q. 3 what type of other services i can ofer with it? Besides i dont need to buy or rent a shop, i alredy got it, but small one 80 sq/m.

[@ЮляЛойко-г2ч]

@@leeneeslynys774 Только если Вы можете предложить что-то новое для жителей этого города. Кофеен ведь тоже не одна в городе, но я уверен, что не все пользуются одинаковой популярностью.

[@leeneeslynys774]

@@ЮляЛойко-г2ч вы наверное меня не так поняли 😃 Я спрашивал про бизнес связанный с пополнением балконов Щяс не самый подходящий момент начинать новый бизнес особенно связанный с обшепитом из за кароны 👍🏽

[@ЮляЛойко-г2ч]

@@leeneeslynys774 вы написали что в городе есть 2 станции по наполнению и спрашивали выгодно ли открыть ещё одну- вашу. Я ответил, что если вы можете предложить что-то новое(доставка баллонов, обслуживание и т.д.), то почему нет, кофейни были как пример.

[@TheMarkFromDenmark]

can you also tell about 02 and TRIMIX

[@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter]

We'll see Mark. O2 is pretty well self-explanatory except for the part where oxygen gets toxic and can kill a diver. That's sometimes tough to grasp. I'm a TRIMIX instructor and can do a fair job of making that part of diving clear. We'll see if Kevin thinks it's suitable. Alec

[@alaind831]

please do! I've yet to do trimix... but demo last week in Monterey had a lot of rebreathers and it was fascinating to hear how they work and how they adjust in this case the O2 for optimal time underwater. Demos didn't have helium tank though I suspect some support trimix as well...

[@TheMarkFromDenmark]

Alec Peirce Scuba I was thinking of it from a filling perspective If done wrong you burn down the building

[@Teampegleg]

Why would you partial pressure mix nitrox when you have a nitrox stick?

[@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter]

There are so many different circumstances that having different methods available is always a good idea. Technically you're right but the Partial Pressure method is pretty much foolproof and shouldn't be discounted even with its issues. I'll try to make some of this clear in the NITROX videos. Alec

[@marcvankan]

I guess my name is Kevin from now on.

[@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter]

Only one Kevin and he needs to practice his 'zoom in here' shots!