What Is Effort? Should Lifeskilling Make More Silver/hr, Part 1

[@Intothefirenow]

Thank you for the insight, Arnold Schwarzenegger

[@pat5517]

Very interesting take on this. Will be interesting to see the follow up videos.

[@Luneyebdo]

Thank you! As luck would have it, I am currently working on the second part. If all goes according to plan, it will release tomorrow!

[@Sky.1683]

You need more likes in the Lunar Halo inn Group chat but also here :3

[@milkaexqzme6307]

After seeing blue's reaction, I came to the original video to comment. I am sorry for sound so dissing, but the whole argument is badly framed. It think if you would have discussed with some other people it would give you a better frame to present the argument and eliminate holes like blue poked. But thanks for your hard work, we need videos like these to keep the discussion going so PA one day maybe notices and does something.

[@Luneyebdo]

First of all, thank you for taking the time of your day to comment! Sadly, this is one of the few things I wish I could have changed before Blue's reaction. This video was never meant as an argument for why lifeskills should make more money. The series is meant to start/have a discussion on the profitability on different activities in the game, mainly grinding and lifeskills, and this video is part 1 of that series. Maybe the decision to split what would be a 60-90 minute video into smaller parts was a mistake, so I will have to think about this when I make future series akin to this one. As far as the arguments themselves go, this is probably why they seem to be weak. The only thing I am arguing for is where a given activitiy sits in a given metric. Think of this video as a sort of methodology for the future part(s). I should have made this more clear in the video, which is why I don't blame anyone if they got the impression of me just complaining about not making enough money. Once again, thank you for the comment, if nothing else, at least I succeeded in getting the word out there and sparking a bit of a discussion. Of course, I thank Blue as well, since his platform is much bigger than mine will probably ever be, so by reacting to this, he helped the discussion spread even further.

[@kirinkirin2582]

The problem with watching a reaction first is that you adopt that reaction's opinion and misunderstandings. For example, Blue not understanding what the "active" metric means for the entire hour. And outright logical failures like responding to arguments that are not made in the video or going after "credentials" instead of the point being made (as if 2000 mastery or energy amount is required to have an opinion - 25:30 of his reaction video).

[@milkaexqzme6307]

@@kirinkirin2582 I did not really/fully adopts blue mentally and opinions. I disagree with some of the stuff he said and also what said and presented in the video. I tried to stay true to my opinion and insight. What I brought up as the biggest flaw I seen in the video is the lack of 'framework'. Also "credentials" important.

[@chris_hisss]

Speaking of spectrum, ....... Great points and nice work. I don't think there is any reasoning with the knuckledraggers though. I would wager that most lifeskills are harder than grinding, taking much more prep and knowledge through studying than 98% of grindspots. But that is exactly why they stick to grinding, it was way too hard and expensive for them in the first place to ever justify it, and even the forced lifeskills in the questline and journals left a bad impression with them. To them the quick strong hits of dopamine are far superior than the slow burn gets better as it goes type. Been doing lifeskills in BDO mobile. Game is so much better and more streamlined IMO. Feels more like what BDO was aiming for and it never quite got there.

[@Luneyebdo]

Thank you so much for the kind words! I think both lifeskills and grinding are difficult in their own ways. Obviously everyone has their biases, but I am more interested in starting a discussion and seeing what people think, rather than the general yelling contest over which activity has it worse. I think I could have and definitely should have done a better job at explaining that part, since it led to a minority of people interpreting this video as me complaining that lifeskills don't make enough silver/hr. I will try to improve upon this in the next part. Never played BDO mobile, but heard some good things about it. I am glad you are enjoying it though, that's all that matters in the end.

[@emeukal7683]

Good content my friend!

[@Luneyebdo]

Thank you handsome!

[@Pughhead]

You conveniently left APM out entirely. Cliocking on bushes doesn't take nearly as much concentration as executing an ability rotation during combat

[@Luneyebdo]

Thank you for the comment! I left it out because to me, APM is a terrible metric to use for determining effort, much less so money/hr. As I said in the video, Ninja and Kuno require more APM than awakening Witch and Guardian, should they make more silver too?

[@Pughhead]

@@Luneyebdo Well consider APM instead then. e.g. Grinding is clearly higher apm than AFK lifeskilling for example, therefore it should earn more money. It's simple.

[@Luneyebdo]

I will not consider APM because it's a flawed metric that Pearl Abyss themselves provably do not use when they balance the game. I have also said in the video that how active an activity is a metric in determining effort. Active meaning whether or not you have to sit at the computer and press buttons or if you can go away, make a coffee, or even sleep, while the activity does itself. I also genuinely despise the comparison of grinding to AFK lifeskills, because it completely derails the discussion. I don't think I have ever seen any lifeskiller, or a BDO player for that matter, say that AFK, or even semi-AFK lifeskills should make the same money as grinding. Nobody is arguing for cooking or fishing to make 2b/hr. Stop acting like they do. The discussion has always been about grinding vs. gathering and/or hunting. All three require you to be active, and there are way better ways to determine effort, or money/hr for that matter, than just APM (some of which I provided, such as the risk-reward and the setup/gear needed to even do that activity, which I think are better reasons and arguments for why grinding should be more money than just APM will ever be). Comparing grinding against any other lifeskill than these two is at best disengenuous, and at worst actively hurtful to the discussion as a whole, so please, stop doing that.

[@Omni_Shambles]

Preach brother. 💯

[@DriftinSeas]

Should some life skills be buffed? Yes. Does your video show a complete lack of understanding of how life-skills in BDO and most similar games works? Also yes. Life skills can never be tracked in a per hour basis because at it's core it's a compounding system. Using hunting as an example. You go hunt for 3 hours, This is now part of your "per hour" for the remaining process. You go gather some other materials for 2 hours, This is added to the 3 hours from hunting to determine your per hour. Now you process your gathered materials into needed materials for further down the line (This is AFK so it doesn't go to your per hour). Next you go do Alchemy/Cook/Use worker on those materials (This is also considered AFK so it doesn't effect your per hour). Next you will either Box or sell the items (If you sell its that amount divided by 5 to get your per hour). Now you sell boxes (Again now it's amount divided by 5 to get the per hour). Did you make as much as you should have? Honestly I don't know the math. Basically grinding Yzrahid shows on Garmoth as 1.4 bil an hour with agris. So end game hunting should probably make around 1.1 bil per active hour to be fair. However I think it already does if I'm not mistaken. I've heard numerous people say LOML sniper hunting makes over a bil an hour. If this is true then end game hunting already makes about as much per hour as end game spots for less silver, less risk, and less difficulty.

[@Luneyebdo]

Life skills can very much be tracked on a per hour basis, at least the vast majority of them can be and should be. The only two I would consider to not be trackable on an hourly basis are farming and trading. I still included them in both parts just to have them, but they are there just to give people an idea. What you are saying about lifeskills has a lot of holes in its logic, here are some of them: First of all, just because you are AFK doesn't mean that time stops. AFK activities absolutely can be tracked on a per hour basis. if what you said is true, then it wouldn't matter if I spend the hour processing flour or making deep sea elixirs. Obviously your silver will increase by a certain amount in a certain amount of time. That means that by dividing the silver by the time invested, you will get a "per hour" number. AFK activities absolutely go to your per hour, because if you didn't do any, your per hour silver would be zero. Second, lifeskills being a compounding system isn't really entirely true. Some lifeskills feed into others, but some have no relation at all. If you didn't judge gathering on a per hour basis for example, you would have absolutely no way to distinguish between mining and butchering. You wouldn't know which activity is the best or the worst. This is why you have to strip the lifeskills of their hangers-on and only look at them in isolation. Third of all, if it really was like you're saying, then none of the lifeskill tracking sites would include a per hour metric. Hell, bdolytics even has a box you can tick to tell the site if you have obtained the items yourself or if you're buying them and it will change the money per hour accordingly. Once again, if lifeskills couldn't or shouldn't be tracked on a per hour basis, nobody would do that. And hey, trading and farming doesn't do that. Fourth, what happens if you don't engage in the other lifeskill? If I hunt for an hour and then sell the meat instead of cooking it, does that mean I didn't make the billion that's in my pockets right now? Hell, what happens to the black gems, sharps, and other rare items I have been getting while butchering? Does that money also vanish? Fifth, I don't think anyone actually lifeskills the way you are describing. As far as I am aware, most people don't immediately go and cook/process everything they had gathered. They will stockpile it until later and then have a longer cooking/alchemy/processing session. If I play for two hours a day and during those two hours I only did hunting, does that mean that I can't count that money on a per hour basis because I plan on doing a two hour cooking session tomorrow that will use up materials from the last week? Sixth, what happens if I buy the materials from the Central Market? I didn't hunt for that meat or blood, so there is nothing to track there at all. Lastly, the same thing could be said about grinding. Every grindspot includes items that serve some other compounding system. Do you count the Serendia Elvia cookies as a part of your money/hr or do you count making the cups as a separate activity? Does it even count, since you create the cups by processing, which is an AFK activity? Same goes for infinite potion pieces, do they have value or not? Do Caphras have value or do you count it towards making your SO armor pieces? Do Black Stones have value since you use it in many different systems? If I do Dehkia Ash for five hours, get five bases and then get lucky enough for TET, does that make Dehkia Ash a 12b/hour spot? If I don't get lucky and those debos vanish, does that make the spot a 600m/hr spot then? Hell, you mentioned Yzrahid, if I drop a flame, does that mean I made 10b/hr there? Or does that item not count because I need it to make shoes. If we are going to accept that lifeskills are a compounding activity and should therefore not be counted on a per hour basis, then the only thing you can track from grinding is trash loot. I do know the math, I did it in the second part. And yes, you are correct, hunting does make that much per hour, give or take. This video is not me claiming that lifeskills should make more than grinding, not in the slightest. It's main purpose is to start a discussion, which it did, and I thank you for being a part of it.

[@tristramemerge]

You cant have good silver with lifeskilling if you dont have value pack. Of the central market is dead well that will be a death of lifeskilling not mentioning what server you are. Some server most people dont do lifeskill. Oh and yeah manos gears/acce is more pain to enhance

[@Luneyebdo]

I agree, lifeskills being tied so closely to the Central Market are a problem in terms of profitability and p2w. Couldn't agree more with the enhance point too.

[@44PeTeR22]

This is just way to one sided. You dont even look at how lifeskills are connected, like buffing gathering Drops is a buff to alchemy and cooking as well.

[@Luneyebdo]

You are not wrong in them being connected. I will actually go through this in the next part, since this was simply about effort each activity takes and it is easier to explain if we take each activity in isolation. However, the idea that gathering buffs is an alchemy/cooking buff is a misconception. The very best case scenario gathering buffs have no effect on the other lifeskills, in most cases "buffs" to gathering are a direct nerf to cooking/alchemy. If we buff the number of materials dropping from gathering, that inevitably drives the price of those materials down. Since the materials are cheaper, everything that the given material turns into becomes cheaper as well, since people can now afford to make that recipe more easily/frequently, hence driving the finished product's price down as well. Now, if you only do cooking and/or alchemy and buy everything off the CM, you will most likely be making relatively the same amount of money. Since your materials will be cheaper, the profit margin on the meals/potions will stay relatively the same. This is kinda similar to gathering, since in theory, making 50% less on each material, but gathering 50% more of it, should keep the profit the same. However, if a material gets saturated enough to the point where you're selling for even 45% of what you were selling for previously, your profit actually goes down. The only way in which buffs to gathering drops are a buff to alchemy and cooking is in the way of being able to do cooking/alchemy for longer, which only benefits people with more time on their hands. It's the same example as the grinding to gathering comparison I did in the video. If you were making 600m/hr before and were done cooking in an hour, but now you make 300m/hr and are done in two hours, if you only play for an hour, you are screwed.

[@tokenr7414]

nice study...

[@Luneyebdo]

Thank you!

[@herogin710]

PA will never buff silver per hour on life skilling, there main priority is endgame pve. and i dont think there will be any changes on silver per hour on lifeskilling in the future or forever till the game dies.

[@Luneyebdo]

At least give a man some hope :(

[@MrAcenith]

Yeaaaaaah.... No one gives a fuck about lifeskilling. Didn't watch.

[@Luneyebdo]

And yet you felt the need to leave a comment. Thanks! :)