What is Jury Nullification? - Lehto's Law Ep. 5.57

[@aoeulhs]

There's an old story about a Jury in days of yore that acquitted a man charged with stealing a sheep from a hated landowner. The Jury acquitted the man but said he had to return the sheep. The Judge was furious! Such a verdict was an outrage! He sent them from the courtroom to reconsider. When they returned he asked them if they had amended their verdict. "Yes," said the foreman, "we have. He can keep the sheep." EDIT: It is indeed a joke! But it means that the jury did what they believed to be the right thing regardless of the law. It is an amusing illustration of jury nullification. I'm adding this edit for clarity as the comments seem a tad confused on what ought to be a fairly obvious point (not unlike juries IRL TBH; the questions they ask in deliberations make you wonder what trial they heard)..

[@allenbooth5193]

The verdict implies that the jury did, in fact, think that the defendant had stolen the sheep. In saying that the defendant had to return the sheep (later to keep the sheep), they indicated that they thought the sheep were in his possession.

[@jmrumble]

@@allenbooth5193 It could be argued that the implication is that the sheep was borrowed without permission... does joyriding apply to sheep?

[@LadyViolet1]

@@allenbooth5193 The only way they could explain that away is if they were like "well actually we think it was his sheep all along."

[@Roddy556]

@@allenbooth5193 no way! Thanks for explaining that.

[@Hal_T]

This is just a joke. It is not jury nullification. Jury nullification is voting to acquit when a person did do the deed, BUT you don't agree that the deed is wrong. If you don't think prostitution should be illegal, you might vote not guilty even though it was proven that the woman was a prostitute. Basically, what jury nullification is is refusing to accept a moral or ethical standard that you disagree with.

[@bluewater454]

_"A jury has the power to do this, but not the right to do this"._ What a perfect example of judicial arrogance. Judges do things that they have neither the right, nor the authority to do as a matter of course. This is the one area where We The People have the power to check the injustices of our legal industry. Thanks for discussing this. It needs to be common knowledge.

[@d.e.b.b5788]

Apparently, it's quasi illegal to tell anyone about it. There's no actual law about it, but they will find a way to put you in jail if you do it.

[@davidroberson1962]

@@d.e.b.b5788 Only during a trial. If a juror knows what jury nullification is and that they are under no legal obligation to follow rules the judge lays forth regarding only the evidence given by the court then they will be able to nullify dumb laws.

[@superque4]

How does this treatment of the Constitutional Right of jurors not INCENSE the masses and how do judges get to supress lawful information. This is revolution-worthy.

[@catsspat]

It's like Fight Club. First rule of Jury Nullification: You do not talk about Jury Nullification. Second rule of Jury Nullification: You *do not* talk about Jury Nullification....

[@wasd____]

Unless, of course, your goal is to just get out of jury duty. Drop the fact that you know all about jury nullification and how it works during voir dire, and you'll be excused instantly.

[@kavalerdivacom]

During jury duty everyone was asked by the judge in front of all the other jurors if they would follow the law as instructed by the judge. Everyone said yes until he got to me. I said, "no, I will not convict someone of an immoral law". The judge and attorneys were flabbergasted and spent 5 minutes asking why I said that and I used that time to inform the other people in the jury pool about nullification. I remember telling them that the jury is truly the final check on whether the government is acting morally. Anyway they didn't pick me.

[@Hal_T]

Bravo.

[@davidroberson1962]

I'd have said "I'd follow the law." The Constitution is so ambiguous that you could pretty much rule any law was unconstitutional that you wanted. A juror has no responsibility to bow to the SCOTUS on readings of law.

[@EthanDawson2002]

The biggest problem I see is that the legal system cares more about winning and upholding their power over others than what is right or just. I see way to often a prosecutor will go after someone because they can without asking if they should.

[@ShannonDove-sy7ye]

Because when they decide to run for president, they brag about their convictions

[@kailexx1962]

I remember back in the 90's a defense attorney in Denver actually told the jury about nullification. Two things happened: 1) Mistrial; 2) the attorney got hauled in front of the BAR. Funny, you are entitled to a jury of your PEERS. Your PEERS decide guilt/not guilt, not a judge/prosecutor who finds nullification disruptive and a threat to their power.

[@liqwid2372]

Excerpt from the unanimous decision in Georgia v. Brailsford (1794), written by the first Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court and Founding Father, John Jay: "It may not be amiss, here, Gentlemen, to remind you of the good old rule, that on questions of fact, it is the province of the jury, on questions of law, it is the province of the court to decide. But it must be observed that by the same law, which recognizes this reasonable distribution of jurisdiction, you have nevertheless a right to take upon yourselves to judge of both, and to determine the law as well as the fact in controversy. On this, and on every other occasion, however, we have no doubt, you will pay that respect, which is due to the opinion of the court: For, as on the one hand, it is presumed, that juries are the best judges of facts; it is, on the other hand, presumbable, that the court are the best judges of the law. But still both objects are lawfully, within your power of decision." Fast forward a century later, and the courts have begun to be corrupted by corporate interests. Striking is against the law, and Big Railroad is upset that juries are refusing to convict labor leaders. The Supreme Court "clarifies" Georgia v. Brailsford, and so begins the exaltation of corporate interests over the people's interests to not be exploited and forced to work under horrific conditions. "And accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed." Fast forward another century, and many of our laws have literally been written by corporations. Judges are constantly lying to jurors about their power to nullify the law, instead convincing them that they are but mere finders of fact. A bare majority decision has held that these judges' lies are not reversible errors. "But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security." There are only four boxes available to us in the defense of liberty: the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the ammo box. We MUST promote and ADVOCATE for the first three boxes, so that we will never have to resort to the last one. We must never submit to tyrants who deign to take a peaceful and legitimate exercise of power away from the people. That would only make violence inevitable. I do not advocate for violence. Anyone who refuses to advocate for jury nullification is effectively advocating for violence.

[@DMichaelAtLarge]

Well articulated.

[@red9man2130]

Jim as a former and soon to be again a Michiganian I recall why I never got a law degree in Michigan! I watched until the 5:09 mark and then my anger got the better of me. First of all Juries which descend from the Magna Carta and English common Law were INTENDED to thwart government tyranny. Originally asan interesting side note a Bailiff was responsible for also Arresting a JUDGE should the need arise. Jurors are arbiters of both FACT and LAW. THey DO have the power to find not guilty if they believe a law is unjust. Under Original English law if you went to court and said "produce the victim" and the court could not then there was NO OFFENSE. The upshot of all of this is Lawyers hate their Rice Bowls broken and many Judges are just Black robed thugs who practice tyranny! I was amazed when you said they convicted him of "jury tampering" especially since the people reading the Literature were not impaneled.. this stinks of statism and tyranny.

[@billsmith3818]

I agree with everything except "Michiganian"...It's Michigander!

[@jeromemckenna7102]

Many years ago in high school I watched a moot court and was bored to tears. You make the law sound interesting. So, I applaud you and your videos.

[@russhawkins]

This is so kind of (dejavue)? I have been on jury duty twice, the first time was a reckless driving case and the judge said if we wanted to hang around he would come talk to anyone if they had questions. I was in my mid 20's and I was fascinated with the whole process and I stayed around and talked to the judge (the only one because I had kind of been the one that had us in the jury room for approx 3.5hrs all the others kind of went poof). He was extremely nice and sat down and talked to me for about 1/2 an hour. Without getting to long winded about details, I did not think the guy was driving recklessly, in fact to this day I will argue that because of the situation he was probably driving more attentively or less reckless than any other person that might have been on that deserted road with only him and the officer that pulled him over. The Judge was awsome, we had found him guilty. The judge explained why, if he would have had to decide the case, he would have had to find the same way. We were not out there for sentencing of course and the judge said that the guy had a great driving record (which we all new because his lawyer had pounded that part in) and that he had given him the minimum that the law would allow him too. Right at the end of talking to him I mentioned that yea according to the letter of the reckless driving law he might have been guilty but that he I wasn't sure it he was guilty of the spirit of what the law was trying to accomplish if he could understand what I was saying. He said he did and the last thing he said as we were leaving the jury room (and the whole reason I am leaving this comment) if you ever get the chance look up (Drum Roll please) Jury Nullification. I am just a few years younger than you so no real inter-web yet or smart phones to get instant knowledge but within the next couple weeks I did look it up at the library (see all you youngsters out there, there was a place called a library and you could go there to get books......) And now all these years later I am sitting here thinking about the part you mentioned here "a true and just...", and in that situation we got the true based off the facts right but at the same time might not got the just, based off the same facts, right. For that situation I think they may have separated a bit. I know just a reckless driving ticked but I was the youngest one in the jury room and for 3.5hrs I could not figure what and how to explain why I did not think he was guilty. It was very frustrating at the time. Love you vids and keep on keepin on....

[@craigescapeddetroit5198]

America's 1st chief justice, John Jay, explained the juror's right to jury nullification, (Georgia vs. Brailsford) but the govt and judges hate it and try to supress it.

[@johnpalmer5131]

Curious about a related topic: please give an explanation and thoughts on when a judge sets aside a jury verdict.

[@Soren015]

So, I realize this is a belated question but - relating to the story you told - can you be held in "contempt of court" by a judge for something you are doing entirely outside of their courtroom? And does a judge have the power to summon you to their specific courtroom to be tried *by them*? That all seems somehow wrong. If a judge has a problem with something you are doing, shouldn't they have to file a civil complaint or call the cops so *some other judge* can hear that case?

[@Fred-F4]

I do not know anything about law but can listen to your lectures for hours and hours 😂😂 good job man!

[@jeffbergstrom9658]

@13:30 you read jury instructions that demand the jury accept the law as it is given to them by the judge. I certainly believe those instructions are given and believe it gives judges and attorneys hives to even contemplate that mere jurors not listen to their sage advice. Thing is, the history of our legal system is _firmly_ in favor of jury nullification. If you think about it the whole point of a jury was to take the power away from the high priests of the legal system. No surprise that attorneys and judges hate this but they are flying in the face of how our judicial system was envisioned. Some cool quotes below: _The jury has the power to bring a verdict in the teeth of both law and fact._ - Oliver Wendell Holmes, United States Supreme Court Justice _The jury has a right to judge both the law as well as the facts in controversy._ - John Jay, 1st Chief Justice of the Supreme Court _The pages of history shine on instances of the jury’s exercise of its prerogative to disregard instructions of the judge_ - U.S. vs. Dougherty, 1972 _It would be an absurdity for jurors to be required to accept the judge’s view of the law, against their own opinion, judgment, and conscience._ - John Adams, 2nd president of the US, vice president to George Washington The above includes founding fathers as well as legal scholars and supreme court decisions. Nullification should be considered one of the most deeply held rights we have as citizens. To abandon it is akin to letting the priests of old tell you what the bible said because most of the populace could not read latin. Just trust them they'd tell you. There is a reason they work very hard to not let you do it as detailed in this video.

[@Hal_T]

Amen! Thank you!

[@justusnow9110]

In all of the shows and movies that depict courtrooms and trials, never have I ever heard the detailed instructions given to a jury. This makes you more than as lawyer. You are a teacher, You are revealing information that I , for one, found fascinating.

[@jackfitzpatrick8173]

I've done a bit of reading on the subject. Of course that doesn't make me an expert but it's my understanding that some prominent legal scholars...including at least one or two of the "Founding Fathers"...support the concept. I've never been a juror but if I was a juror in a case involving a law with which I disagree I'm gonna find the person "not guilty" even if he had, in fact, broken that law.

[@OGPatriot03]

An unjust law is no law at all, thus, no law was broken.

[@dianaklien1560]

The first rule of jury nullification is to not talk of jury nullification.

[@thundercricket4634]

Any form of government in the world, be it a military dictatorship or a constitutional republic like ours can pass absurd and oppressive laws. At the end of the day the jury is NOT there to determine if the defendant is guilty or not of breaking law, but rather if they're guilty or not of actual wrongdoing. It's a subtle but important distinction.

[@ruggedcctv]

Great topic. Thanks for covering it. Interesting. By the way, I didn't subscribe for a long time, because I kept thinking "This video is interesting, but surely there can't be many interesting law-related topics". I was wrong. Great job!

[@aquinasrost]

This man's rights were violated, the judges involved exercised judicial tyranny by depriving him of his rights, and this is why jury nullification has been an important part of common law. It enables jurors to stand between the individual and the power of the government.

[@betweentwomillennium5057]

Where I live, the local police forces are so corrupt that you don’t have to use jury nullification. You just ask the question “can you the jury convict a man if there is even a shadow of doubt of this persons guilt?” “Were our local police force involved in this case in any way shape or form?” “If you answer yes,(and their is no way they can answer no) then there is your shadow of doubt.” Then the person that asks these questions can vote not guilty and by default nullify the jury. Remember “there are no good cops, for if there were, there would be no bad cops. And at the Federal level the government in all branches is so corrupt that there is no way that there can not be a shadow of doubt on anything they say or do or evidence they produce.

[@spudhead169]

If the Jury's oath is to render a True and Just verdict, what would happen if the Jury returned from deliberation and the foreman said "Your Honor, we are unable to render a verdict under oath. We all feel that a true verdict would be unjust and a just verdict would be untrue and thus any verdict we give would be a violation of our oaths."?

[@BrightBlueJim]

Yeah, that's what I thought when he read that. If I had to sign a statement saying that I would return a "true and just" verdict, I would have to refuse to sign it, since there's no way I could know in advance, whether it is possible to find a verdict that is both.

[@PvblivsAelivs]

I think the Constitutional right to a jury trial exists with nullification in mind. In my broken Latin: _lex mala non est lex_ It is a check on an overpowered government. (Many of the founding fathers were quite concerned about the possibility of an overpowered government.) But the powerful don't want anything to act as a check on their power. They want juries to be a mere formality, a rubber stamp on the decision they would make anyway. If it wouldn't be too obvious, I'm sure judges would be happy to instruct jurors as to the desired verdict. As a practical matter, jury nullification should be rare. An attorney _should_ be able to say "if you want to, ignore the law." And I'll tell you why. If I am on a jury involving reckless driving, I don't want to ignore the law. If I had heard about the overzealous charging by police, I might decide that that amounts to reasonable doubt. But I don't want people to disregard the safety of others when they drive. I _want_ to apply that law. A defense attorney who asks me to ignore the law has practically conceded his client's guilt. The only time such a suggestion would be effective is when the jury already agrees that the law is a bad one. If, say, there were a law saying that everyone had to let the Chief of Police come into his home and empty his refrigerator if the Chief felt like it, and someone did not let the Chief in, that would be a good candidate for nullification. The principle of jury nullification is good because it prevents legislatures from writing laws that are likely to be nullified.

[@realtijuana5998]

The concept of the jury system predates the Founding Fathers of the US. It is quite literally medieval in concept. In his Constitutional History of England, F. W. Maitland showed how the common law of each manor court managed to accommodate the statutory law of the early kings by allowing the upper class of locals to make such adjustments. Juries, in the early British Middle Ages, were selected "from those standing about" (circumstantibus) in court awaiting resolution of their own complaints. For as long as this practice continues to be fruitful, we should continue the practice. Although it looks to be more fruitful now than before, we now have a different class of "circumstantibus" from which to form our juries. Personally, I believe every plaintiff should accept the circumstantibus that they have at their disposal. Voir dire is out of control.

[@EthanDawson2002]

Wow how do we respect a system that charges a person for educating a person on their rights. So essentially the legal system is corrupt.

[@cedricpod]

Better that there be a way to pay to learn your rights ... rather than have no way to learn about them at all

[@acoustic4037]

Nullification has a legal, legit purpose. For courts to deprive juries of any legal tool is wrong. Courts are about winning convictions, not the truth or justice. This video demonstrates that.

[@jimkiser1429]

The tool that the judges use is the ignorance of the jurors. Turns out if you don't know your rights, you are doomed to lose them. The schools are at fault for not having classes that cover and discuss the rights that have been hard fought for you by your founding fathers.

[@consciouscool]

In other words judges hate the fact that the legal system is NOT the POWER rather the people who make the jury are the final power. ANY JUDGE that prosecutes ANYONE related to jury nunilfication should be disbarred for life and taken out of office PERIOD.

[@troyevitt2437]

A jury in Federal court acquitted a guy who was caught with a half-eaten roasted bald eagle. His intent was to eat trout, but an egal swooped down as he was fighting the trout onto dry land and stole the trout off the line. The defendant threw a rock intending to make the eagle drop the fish, but the rock hit the eagle in the head, killing it instantly. Now that all was over but the shouting, the judge asked the defendant, "Well, cat's out the bag at this point...what does bald eagle taste like?" "Kinda like California condor, Your Honor, but gamey, like manatee."

[@Hal_T]

Funny!

[@RJN31428]

Your example of reckless driving charge for spinning tires would mean if there was some sand or the road was wet spinning your tires would get you charged. The instruction was a true and JUST verdict. about 20 years ago I was on grand jury for 3 days per week for 4 months in Maricopa County AZ. There was a man passing out jury notification fliers almost every day. As far as I know he was never arrested.

[@llerradish]

If people would stand together we could stop this injustice and force Judges and DA's to stop abusing their power like this. Building and filling prisons with non violent people isn't improving our lives.

[@akmass9761]

What is one of the purported reasons for law(s)? Justice. What is one way unjust laws can be overcome? Nullification.

[@NipkowDisk]

I served on a jury a tad over a year ago. In voir dire, the prosecuting attorney asked if anyone had strong opinions on guns, as a firearm was present during the alleged crime. At least one person said that guns essentially belong only in the hands of police and the military, and I believe another wanted firearms banned altogether. The prosecuting attorney then asked if anyone else had strong opinions on guns; I then raised my hand. I explained that one could say that I was on the other end of the spectrum- We The People are the original Department of Homeland Security, and always the most important one. And that is why the Second Amendment exists. Now with that right comes a responsibility, and one must exercise it properly. They then asked something to the effect that if I disagreed with the law, would I still uphold my oath? I then explained that if I believed the law was unconstitutional, that I would probably violate my oath. I was NOT excused from jury duty. But did the prosecuting attorney suspect that I knew about jury nullification? YOU BET. They were extremely careful not to sensationalize the presence of a firearm. Nonetheless, the defendant was convicted. Which brings up another matter: I do NOT believe that so-called "special verdicts" have any business being applied to ANY right, including the right to keep and bear arms. It denies true justice by prohibiting the jury to consider ALL of the facts and ALL of the evidence in the trial, whether physical or circumstantial. Enough said.

[@MichaelHaneline]

I was just dismissed from jury selection yesterday. For the record, I don't TRY to get out of jury duty, these really are my beliefs, and I make sure the judge knows them when they ask the appropriate questions: -If I believe a law to be unjust, I will not find the accused guilty, no matter what. (For example, if a doctor in Ohio was being charged with providing an abortion to a woman who NEEDED it and I was on that jury, I would find him not guilty no matter what.) -I will not be able to follow the judge's instructions if they ask me to do something that goes against my own moral code. (For example, if I was juror and was shown proof that convinced me that the accused is a dangerous person committed a serious crime, but then the judge told the jury they had to disregard the evidence for whatever reason, I would not follow that instruction and most likely declare the accused guilty anyway.) These are my own moral standards and I am not flexible on them. I cannot be intimidated by the government into doing what I consider the morally wrong thing.

[@Hal_T]

Bravo.

[@Alexagrigorieff]

Does jury oath in the federal court include "true and *just* verdict" words? If a juror feels the guilty verdict would not be *just*, could they argue that a guilty verdict would violate the oath?

[@dancross4444]

Nullification is a powerful tool, if only we would use it. Some day I may register to vote in hopes of getting selected for a jury. I'm sure in Woods trial the judge didn't allow evedence of the content of the leaflets being nullification, I'm sure all the jury heard was the defendant was passing out jury tampering information.

[@user-hw1cr5uq4z]

What happens in the deliberation room, stays in the deliberation room!

[@cedricpod]

sadly not true when i was on a jury , the prosecutor interviewed some jurors after the trial. Separately , the judge did so as well.

[@chuckwingo11]

You may be interested to know that in Georgia our Constitution has a provision expressly stating that the jury shall be the judges of the law and the facts. (Bill of Rights, Paragraph XI a). IANAL, but I would read this as at least allowing jury nullification.

[@ChristopherWentling]

Seems to me that following the jury oath to return a true and just verdict could require a not guilty verdict even if the charges were true but the law or the application of the law was unjust. Just being defined as: based on or behaving according to what is morally right and fair. An unjust law should never be upheld by a jury. Regardless of the written law the jury is well within its rights to declare that the accused is not guilty of breaking any law. Of course a Judge overturning a guilty verdict of a jury is well respected in law even if rarely done.

[@shadygaming6523]

WTF so the first amendment right was disregarded because a judge had his feelings hurt?

[@graygrumbler5761]

Interesting video. I learned about jury nullification during civics courses in grade school and again later in high school. I also remember them covering both type 1 and type 2 jury nullification. Maryland courts are very careful to bracket their language when addressing potential jurors.

[@JamesMartin-bu8yu]

Michigan's Supreme Court recently overturned Keith Wood's conviction.

[@hotsoup1001]

Steve's point about overcharging is what often drives jurors to do things like this. When the potential penalty is so draconian that it outweighs the crime, what jury doesn't consider whether justice would truly be served with a conviction? It seems like prosecutors sometimes bring this upon themselves. It might not be legal or right, but if you ask most average citizens whether law or justice is more important, they will say justice.

[@bill-zy6dg]

The jury is the last hope of a citizen, of course the state hates nullification.

[@Raggzzaug11]

Judges and prosecutors hate to have their power taken away !

[@blackvic5157]

@@Raggzzaug11 Hell, I'd vote to nullify without hesitation if it's the right thing to do. There's nothing the Powers That Be can do about it, either. Tee hee.

[@jeffbybee5207]

Jn isSecond to last check on tryanical government, last is second amendment

[@wasd____]

@@jeffbybee5207 Armchair warriors and their "last line of defense is second amendment!" attitudes don't know how a modern police force works. Your AR-15 isn't going to win against the SWAT team that gets called in to deal with you because you brandished your AR-15 over something you didn't like.

[@jonathanplatt5027]

@@blackvic5157 That's not entirely true, in many cases the Judge can override the Jury's decision with a what's known as a JNOV - Judgement Notwithstanding the Verdict. Of course, doing so is almost certainly going to cause said justice uncountable headaches in paperwork, reviews, and appeals, but there is something that can be done about it.

[@laurielewis2745]

Fascinating topic. And juries need to know more about this.

[@conscientiousobserver8772]

Saw a case once where the defendant was on trial for assault with a deadly weapon. The facts of the case were that he had taken it away from a would-be assailant and smacked him over the head with it. While some jury members wanted to follow the letter of the law, the majority strongly disagreed. Verdict: Not Guilty.

[@SovereignStatesman]

By what reason?

[@conscientiousobserver8772]

​@@SovereignStatesman Who knows with jurieshe T

[@conscientiousobserver8772]

@@SovereignStatesman Who knows with juries? Despite the Voir Dire process, many jurors still come in with their own personal biases. IIRC, there were older men who probably surmised they would do the same thing as the defendant under the circumstances. The prosecutor wore a badly concealed colostomy bag, which may have been a distraction. The women, no doubt, took into consideration the ages of the parties involved (teenagers). Plus, there was a racial element (Hispanic and Black). The argument was that once the weapon was taken away, there was no more threat and the defendant should have walked away, instead of assaulting the plaintiff, who was now the victim. Seems the majority disagreed.

[@DiBy-0]

Sometimes a "true and just verdict" is standing in the way of the powerful, looking their servants on the bench in the eye and saying not today. It should be a part of every citizen's educational upbringing to alert them that they have the right to say, yes this person did break the law and no we aren't going to hold them accountable.

[@costakeith9048]

According to Chief Justice John Jay, in one of the few (perhaps only?) jury trials ever heard before the Supreme Court: 'It may not be amiss, here, Gentlemen, to remind you of the good old rule, that on questions of fact, it is the province of the jury, on questions of law, it is the province of the court to decide. But it must be observed that by the same law, which recognizes this reasonable distribution of jurisdiction, you have nevertheless a right to take upon yourselves to judge of both, and to determine the law as well as the fact in controversy. On this, and on every other occasion, however, we have no doubt, you will pay that respect, which is due to the opinion of the court: For, as on the one hand, it is presumed, that juries are the best judges of facts; it is, on the other hand, presumable, that the court are the best judges of the law. But still both objects are lawfully, within your power of decision. ' The judge is entitled to an opinion on what the law is, but that's all he is entitled to: an opinion. The jury and the jury alone can determine what the law actually is and has no obligation to respect either the opinion of the judge or statutes passed by the legislature in determining what is law. This is the very nature of the common law and what distinguishes it from civil law, where civil authorities actually do have the right to determine what the law is.

[@mattb9876]

Jury question for you. I live in St Louis Missouri. About ten years ago I was called for and selected for jury duty. It was a case of a contractor who was in a client's home using a long ladder which, due to a slippery stone floor, slid while he was on the ladder, causing him to be injured. I don't remember the details, but he was sueing the client for his injury. We (as the jury) listened to a full day of the case then returned the next day (I discovered free coffee and donuts for the jury 😁). We listened to the case for about another hour, then the judge suddenly ordered the jury out. When we were brought back in, it was explained to us the judge had made a decision (I apologise, this is where my understanding of legal terms along with my memory and understanding are fuzzy at best, so please bear with me), made a judgement in favor of the defendant, then released the jury. Case over. I thought (with my ZERO legal training LOL) after a trial started with a jury, at that point only the jury could make the decision. I suspect the judge must have heard something that made the decision apparent to him. I'm sure this is something simple for you, but I don't understand what happened. Can you explain how the judge could override the jury (if that's the right term)? Thanks!

[@stevelehto]

Actually, in a civil trial, that's not unheard of. If the plaintiff fails to put in a possibly winnable case, the judge can Direct a Credit in favor of the defendant.

[@mattb9876]

@@stevelehto Thank you for the reply! I never understood why or how that happened.

[@JB-qg2uc]

In the words of the legal scholar Olavus Petri from the middle of the 16th century, first printed in 1616. "What is neither just nor reasonable, cannot be law; it is for the reasonableness of law, that it is accepted. .. All law shall shall be applied with wisdom, for the greatest justice is the greatest injustice, and mercy shall be included in all justice. .. The good of the common man is the supreme law; therefore what is found to be good for the common man shall be considered law, even though the law is written to suggest otherwise." The law can be tyrannical, and it is the duty of a judge, and a jury to interpret it with mercy. The interpretation of the law is the duty of the judicial branch, and jurors are part of that institution and carry that duty, when they serve.

[@jegesmedve2276]

Well presented, Brother. I supported FIJA ( fully informed jury association for years).

[@danav3387]

What about jury instructions by the judge? Should a judge be giving any instructions to a jury before deliberation?

[@jbtcajun5260]

During jury selection I told the judge I didnt belive in the drug laws and would not find anyone guilty if drugs were involved. He had a fit. Brought me to a back room and read the riot act . Never been called again.

[@nocturnalmayhem0]

that would of been a lawsuit against the state its jury selection he cant throw a fit if you said that now if you said f him f court ect he could of did that then dismissed ya or got you on contempt lol

[@TonyRueb]

When I went through jury selection everyone was asked if they think they can be impartial if they hear things about domestic violence. The case was not about domestic violence, but I assume that played a huge role in it. I was not selected, but I guess the guy was found not guilty of the crime he was being tried for. Anyways, if the person thinks they cannot be impartial for whatever reason, they should state that, if asked why, then they should be able to say why and not fear being reprimanded.

[@BrightBlueJim]

He probably just didn't believe you, and thought you were just trying to get out of jury duty. Judges kind of don't like it when they can't get through joie vivre.

[@jbtcajun5260]

@@BrightBlueJim no because it was a rural county in my fish farming days. It was the custom to allow farm owners out of jury duty upon request. Being winter I made no such request as I had in the past. His main gripe was I said it out loud in a room full of people.

[@BrightBlueJim]

@@jbtcajun5260 Well, then I guess he had no excuse.

[@perdedor3571]

If a judge ordered a jury I was in that it was not able to nullify that action would immediately turn my verdict to not guilty. I'm stubborn AF we can sit here in deliberation all year idgaf.

[@r000tbeer]

Jury nullification is the people's last chance to take into account the law itself. This also means the people on the jury make a rational decision among themselves, versus blindly following what someone else tells them. The State hates it when people think for themselves or make a judgement based on the law. The judge you spoke of that pulled the pamphlet guy into court needs to be fired and charged for violating that guy's 1st amendment rights. Of course, that will never happen.

[@johnsmith-vy7pw]

Amen!

[@aterfelis4708]

Steve may not advocate for jury nullification, but I will. If you find a law unjust or it's application unfair in the case I would encourage you to vote your conscience. The last time one of my coworkers served I explained the concept to them before they were selected (it may have been after, it was over a year ago).

[@anorlunda]

Several state constitutions (Oregon, Indiana, Maryland, ...) Include a statement like this from Oregon. "-In all criminal cases whatever, the jury shall have the right to determine the law, and the facts under the direction of the Court as to the law, and the right of new trial, as in civil cases.-" The idea goes back to common law. The jury, not the judge has the ultimate power to determine what the law is.

[@jackoneil3933]

Thanks for that Steve, and I would be curious what your opinion might be on Jurors being instructed by a judge to decide on evidence and not the law and possibly being threatened or charged with contempt for asking for a judge for details regarding the law and possibly charged with jury tampering as a juror for questioning the law and expressing an opinion regarding the law during deliberation or in the courtroom? I Ask because during a trial I where a person was being tried for reckless driving and from my previous experience as a witness in a trial for reckless driving and attempted manslaughter the definition of reckless driving was explained and debated. From the arresting officer's statements, reports and witness testimony I did not hear anything that as per statute would qualify as reckless driving. The judge however from the start said as jurors we were only to decide if witness testimony was "True". I asked the judge if she could define 'True' in the context of the case but she appeared angered and did not respond. During deliberation, I mentioned that from my previous experience as a witness in a reckless driving case that the witnesses did not provide any testimony that would seem to meet the definition of what I understood Reckless Driving to mean, and that nothing they claimed he did seem reckless or dangerous, and I asked if a copy of the law could be provided. At which point the Judge called us back to the courtroom and reiterated that we were not deciding Law but the evidence was True or not, and that as a Jury we were not instructed to decide to decide guilt or innocence as it pertained to the law, and that any mention of matters of Law in the Jury room would be considered contempt and possibly Jury Tampering. During a continuation of the lengthy Deliberation, I and another juror concluded that given the conflicted and questionable witness testimony, and that the arresting officer did not witness the alleged act and testified that he found some of the witnesses claims to be questionable, I had to deliver delivered a verdict of 'Not guilty'. However, upon delivery of the verdict, the judge singled me out and asked why I delivered a verdict of 'Not Guilty' to which I replied: "Given the evidence, I do not believe the accused drove recklessly". When asked to explain further, I said something to the effect that primarily based on the most credible witness stating she saw the accused of the entire time of the incident and he did not appear to endanger anyone, leave the lane markers or even be speeding. At which point the Judge said, "I instructed you not to decide on matters of law but if witness testimony was credible and as you now say you decided as a matter of law I find you in contempt of court and will direct you be remanded to custody!" At which point the Jury foreman who was a former practising trial attorney spoke up and said: "Your Honour, what I believe this juror meant to say was that he did not believe the evidence was credible and therefore did not rise to the burden of proof that the accused violated the law." The judge then asked me 'Is that true?" to which I said: "Yes your honour, I believe that fairly describes my reasons" at which point she said "Well, there was much about the testimony that was conflicted and incomplete, and if you affirm that you did not decide as a matter of Law I will release you" At which point I said "I affirm". My concern over this experience was how easily as Juror one could be deprived of liberty and have one's life essentially ruined for performing a civic duty in a manner one believed he or she was performing lawfully, and how a technically innocent person could be convicted in a court of law when his or her actions did not rise to the meet the definition of the crime and that in the case described and that the Judge may have acted unlawfully, and I would appreciate any information or opinions you care to share? Thanks,

[@cedricpod]

i commend your effort to apply logic to the case

[@cedricpod]

this issue was determined in favor of the juror in Colorado - of course it caused the juror great inconvenience - en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laura_Kriho

[@imperfectillustration6261]

Hey Steve, love your videos. If we don’t see or hear from you again after this latest topic, we will assume that “they” came for you. :)

[@briankeeler2508]

It's my understanding that the most frequent use of jury nullification was around prohibition. That "should" in the federal instructions makes that sound much more plausible.

[@justicelawyer1444]

In California, jury nullification has been declared improper by the California Supreme Court. See People v. Williams (2001) 25 Cal.4th 779. As a practical matter, if someone was to do it and keep his or her mouth shut, and just claimed that s/he did not find the defendant guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, no one would ever know or be able to challenge it (Note: I am not advocating such a practice).

[@JimmysTractor]

I am advocating that practice. If my peer can't convict me, then there is probably a good reason for it.

[@bob.brennan]

The Jury Oath’s to render a “true verdict” in many states is “according to the instructions of the court”. The Judge’s instructions tell the Jury which law applies, “regardless of what the jurors believe the law is or ought to be”. So, would nullification then violate the Oath, and, risk being held in contempt?

[@williamfife1476]

If based on the evidence (facts) that guilty is unjust than you should find not guilty.

[@zapazap]

Steve: A question. *Would* a lawyer advocating jury nullification outside of a court setting (e.g. on a KZbin platform like yours) put that lawyer in any sort or degree of jeopardy?

[@ryanc473]

I feel like jury nullification is essentially just that if the jury cannot render a verdict that is both true AND just, they simply return a just verdict regardless of truth. That is, it's the idea that if something is so unconscionable as a law so as to make any conviction rendered using it a gross miscarriage of justice (in the eyes of the jury), the jury just votes their conscience, essentially. I get why the cases are somewhat rare, as a law that's just unpleasant/should probably be repealed (in my opinion, for instance, if I were a juror), I would still likely enforce, despite the sour taste. It's only if there's a law that's just grossly, obviously unjust that I could justify doing something like jury nullification. I can't really immediately think of anything off the top of my head, but it's the sort of thing where you'd know it if you saw it, I would think

[@srdjr6760]

Up until 1980 in Maryland, a judges told jury's that the instructions given to them were advisory and one judge, in a 1967 murder case, gave the following instructions: "you, under our system, in criminal cases are at liberty to disagree with the court's interpretation of the law. You shall determine what the law is and then apply the law to the facts as you find them to be." In 1980, the court of appeals found such instructions unconstitutional and forbid the future practice. A 2012 court of appeals ruling applied this retroactively, resulting the release of a number of convicted felons. Jury's interpretation of law and not just fact works both ways.

[@bradman1961]

Don't be Keith Wood :) Another good video Steve. I've known about jury nullification for many years but never knew it was prosecutable within the legal system, I always thought it was a legitimate thing you could (and maybe should) tell jurors.

[@pzdf8v]

I have a problem with "equal protection of the law" because it's so selectively applied. If I'm on a jury with a "hate crime" enhancement, I'll vote not guilty all day long.

[@turkeyssr]

It's far deeper than a problem, but I respect the fact that you wrote this.

[@studentofsmith]

I understand how you feel but consider this, if someone steals a loaf of bread to feed their starving family they have broken the law but most of us would want to be lenient because we sympathize with their motivation. If they steal some jewelry because they want to look 'super fly' we are less likely to sympathize. Although the crime was the same the motivations of the person committing it influence our feelings towards the perpetrator. The idea behind "hate crime" legislation is that a crime motivated by bigotry deserves a harsher punishment because it's such a nasty reason for committing that crime.

[@ShankarSivarajan]

@@studentofsmith Specious. A "hate crime" charge is mostly just something the prosecutors tack on to get White convicts harsher sentences. You can tell because even in the most blatant attacks _against_ White victims, it is exceedingly unlikely that the (Black) attacker gets charged with a hate crime.

[@Quantris]

I feel like I've only ever heard about this with the jury going for "not guilty". Is it also nullification if the jury goes for "guilty" despite acknowledging (privately of course) a reasonable doubt? Or is there a different term for it in that case?

[@stevelehto]

Not sure of a name but that would be them performing their job backwards.

[@ronjclm8590]

I was recently called up for jury duty in Federal court. Civil cases. (3) They wanted the jury to select an amount for monetary damages. The paying parties (Larger Corporations) just weren't happy with what their contracts (smaller Corporations) called for , apparently. Large $$$ was to be distributed. First. I found it against my Rights to be hijacked on a particular day at a particular time. Otherwise, I would have found it to be an interesting experience on a rainy less useful day based on my occupation. The judge gave some instructions during jury selection. It included that you needed to base your decision on the LAW rather than whether you agreed or disagreed with the law. I told him that I didn't think that I would be able to do that. I went on to state that , from my understanding, Large corporations draw up laws and pay lobbyists to schmooze Congressmen to help "regulate their industry. And under the guise of SAFETY. eliminate some of their competition. The judge said I shouldn't have any issues with the laws in this case. Needless to say. I got sent home soon thereafter. The others that were eliminated had more business savvy than the masses. The room, when we left. The rest of the people remaining for jury selection were people that I would consider Sheeple. The unwashed masses. If it were MY trial. I'd rather have a JURY of my PEERS.

[@TheBoyjah]

I have been dismissed IMMEDIATELY and escorted from the courthouse several times when called to jury duty because, when asked if I would follow the rules as explained by the judge, and I say that I will make a decision based on the facts as presented and if I agree with the laws that are being applied. I absolutely am advocating for jury nullification.

[@digitallocations1423]

Okay. Next time say yes. Then do exactly what you want.

[@laurielewis2745]

Best to keep that to yourself and use that knowledge in deliberation.

[@bradpotter6401]

Courts don't want jurors, they want mushrooms. Keep them in the dark and feed them BS.

[@somebodyelse6673]

So, if I set up a big ol' TV in front of the courthouse, and played this video all day, which one of use would get locked up for uttering the two taboo words?

[@stevelehto]

Not me. I would have had no control of how and where they got played.

[@Lelines0]

4:52 That's an interesting point and apparently he got his conviction overturned based on that reasoning in 2020.

[@nabbar]

It is impossible to have a "true and just verdict" when a prosecutor is trying to apply a law in a way that is valid according to the letter of the law but glaringly unjust. Jury nullification is important for purposes of justice in situations where lawmakers either fail to anticipate ways that laws could be applied unjustly or knowingly choose not to address dangers of injustice, and prosecutors decide to follow the letter of the law instead of pursuing justice.

[@johngori6518]

But what happens when the legal "True" verdict conflicts with it being a "Just" verdict? If the law is unjust, or is being applied in an unjust or malicious way, or the peculiar circumstances of the case indicate that what the person did was normal & reasonable in that situation, why should a jury endorse that miscarriage of justice by voting as the judge has instructed? If the Constitutional right of trial by jury is to mean anything, then the jury needs to be able to apply common sense to the facts in evidence to determine if punishment is required/justified. Otherwise the jury is just a rubber stamp for the government.

[@TheSynStalker]

That's my opinion. The point of the jury is that they're one prong of the justice system that serves to protect us from the government. The idea that they HAVE to apply the law as it is written is arrogant grandstanding by judges and lawyers.

[@anantdabholkar685]

I went to one jury trial and I believe there was jury misconduct. However, there were no instructions as to what to do in this instance, so everyone stayed quiet. What are normal instructions in this case? No one wants to rat out on one of their jurors, unless they get replaced.

[@tisjester]

Why would you NOT RAT out one of your juror mates? You do not know them.. You owe them nothing.. If what they are doing will reflect on you, how could you not speak up and say hey THAT is not right.. If they end up hating you?!?!? Who the frack cares.. but.. but.. I do not want to be known as a rat?!?!?!? To which I would say you are not a rat lol.. They are not your people.. They are not in your circle of anything.. They are strangers.. If a stranger were to get up on the table and take a dump and then the officers came in and asked who was it that took a dump on the table? Would you feel so attached to all the people, you did not know, in that jury room to not point and say "THAT idiot"?

[@dkozisek]

How binding is an oath that is taken under duress? Jury Duty is not voluntary. The entire process is compulsory.

[@atticstattic]

One person's 'duress' is another person being a wienie....

[@dkozisek]

@@atticstattic What a brainless response.

[@looneyburgmusic]

"How binding is an oath that is taken under duress? Jury Duty is not voluntary. The entire process is compulsory." - Only for those who don't wish to serve on a jury. In that case, you have a valid point.

[@dkozisek]

@@looneyburgmusic It is compulsory regardless of whether you want to be there or not.

[@looneyburgmusic]

@@dkozisek Sure. But if you are one of the kind who sees serving on a jury as being a part of your "Civic Duty" , you wouldn't see it as being compulsory...

[@cliffordbradley333]

Years ago in Oklahoma City there was a drug-est that was held up. He shot one of the robbers and chased the other robber out of the drug store while shooting at him. He return in side the drug store, got another gun and shot the first robber that was ling on the floor. He then went into the back of the drug store to see if any of his employees were injured. He was found guilty of murder and is now in prison. I think this is a good example where Jury nullification should have been used. He shoot the first robber again to be sure he was dead before he "turned" his back on him in order to check on his employees who were screaming and crying in the back room. What do you think?

[@rickm3217]

Once the person is down and out of the fight you had better not shoot them again unless they come after you, or you will likely be charged with murder. You can also be charged for chasing and shooting at someone who is fleeing and is no threat anymore. In most states.

[@cheeto4493]

I'm from Okc and remember that case. While I dodn't agree that the pharmacist should be able to go back and shoot the man who is down on the floor. Something about being emotionally distraught and heat of the moment could fit in here and something that was probably discussed and deliberated. I feel that those that wish to carry and use a lethal weapon, even in self defense, should be held responsible for its use even (especially) in times of emotional response. Now if he downed the first guy with a taser and then decided to come back and give the guy an extra jolt for "good measure" I could see a jury nullifying over excessive force.

[@NorthShoreWaves]

I love the Where’s Waldo with the $100 bill!

[@VC-Toronto]

Since it's a $100, it's Where's Ben?

[@3611136111]

i dont like going into court for jury duty and they start throwing vows you are to swear to without thinking about. It's like raise your hand blah blah blah everybody says yes and has no idea what they have just sworn to. If I'm gonna swear to something i want to know in advance what it is so i can study it. I really resented that. Wonder what they would think if you asked for copies of the vows before you come in so you can study them? I am not a sheep.

[@Organnabis]

I've actually been on a jury that implemented nullification, at my behest. Domestic violence case, virtually no evidence against the defendant, he had already spent 6 months in jail awaiting trial, so I persuaded fellow jury members (not hard to do, they want to go home) that justice had already been served and we found him not guilty.

[@JeffDG]

That's not really nullification. If there was "virtually no evidence", that's simply a normal verdict that the prosecution didn't meet their burden of proof (beyond a reasonable doubt). Nullification is when there is plenty of evidence against the defendant, and the jury acquits despite the fact that it was appropriately proven.

[@Organnabis]

@@JeffDG Considering the jury was ready to issue a guilty verdict and the guy was likely guilty to some extent, the fact he had already served what I considered ample punishment, justice was served at that point, in my opinion and, with a bit of persuasion, the opinion of the majority of jurors. I would say without me on the jury he would been convicted, almost certainly.

[@WytcherNytes]

California went to a “one day or one trial” jury system years ago, making it _much_ harder to get out of jury duty. I learned that they still don’t want people who know anything on juries. Telling them you are an engineer seems to get you dismissed pretty quickly. So the rule still applies about the only people serving on juries are the ones too dumb to get out of it I’ve always wondered what would happen if you told the judge, honestly, “I am aware of jury nullification and I may not be able to base my verdict solely on the evidence presented and the law as you explain it to us.” You’re being honest, and telling the judge before hand (and hopefully away from the other jurors so as not to contaminate them). Would he toss you in jail for contempt anyway?

[@K2mtp]

I wouldn't try it. Keep your mouth shut till you hear the case if you are selected. If you don't agree with the law both vote guilty but I would never use the words jury nullification either.

[@jeffbybee5207]

Editor of back woods home did just that and was droped from three jury's but was still forced to come every day he was called and waste the two weeks time he was in the jury pool

[@dcabral00]

I hate to be a cynic. But many individuals who come to learn about Jury Nullification do it be rejected for Jury Duty. The second time I was called for Jury Duty, I expressed to the layers and judge that I know as a juror I don't have to condemn someone for breaking a law that I didn't agree with. Needless to say, I was not selected for service and is been years since I've been summoned for it.

[@wholeNwon]

I am from a state in which the State Constitution specifically grants the right of jury nullification in both civil and criminal matters. The courts have therefore adjusted the usual instructions to include words to the effect that you are here to do justice. The "do justice" compromise charge was arrived at after a lot of discussion between the legislature and the judiciary. I doubt that any juror has ever read the State Constitution but I have. If I were in a jury pool and was being questioned during voir dire, I would ask to speak with the judge privately out of the earshot of others and tell him and counsel that, based ONLY on the evidence presented at trial, there is at least a possibility that I might exercise my right to nullify.

[@Nobodyrocked]

Can you do a video on mandatory jury duty? Here in NY, most people will do anything possible to get out of jury duty because the pay is so low and they don't cover travel expenses.

[@YourFunkiness]

In my jury instructions (Indiana) I was told that if the evidence was not sufficient to prove guilt beyond reasonable doubt, I MUST vote not guilty. If the evidence showed guilt beyond reasonable doubt, I MAY vote guilty.

[@yinYangMountain]

In California ‘jury nullification’ is a no-no because: The courts look to future ‘consequences.’ And, thus, the consequences of jury nullification creates a circumstance whereby it’s possible two hypothetically identical cases could render one defendant found guilty while the other not guilty. This would be injustice.

[@Hal_T]

The guy that was held in contempt for the pamphlets was simply an example of a judge that doesn't like anyone questioning his authority. Jury nullification is legal. No one, not even a judge, can force you to think a certain way about what is right and wrong. Contempt was a completely dimwitted approach from the judge. But if the judge had him arrested for some law regarding pamphlet distribution, that is a different thing. Just proves some judges are imbeciles.

[@ShankarSivarajan]

No, not imbeciles, just evil.

[@JRaynor99]

Any juror who were to mention nullification would probably be dismissed by the Judge. In Louisiana this was relatively common for "good ol' boys". Today Judges (in Jury instructions) instruct to "consider the charges and apply the law as I give it to You" to avoid this very thing.

[@justinclark9258]

How do the conflict of interest rules play out with courts deciding on rules that affect the reach of their authority? Like the pamphlet case.

[@jonsmith1259]

Steve, please clarify something? In one of your previous videos, a person was paying a traffic ticket (I think) and was being unruly. The clerk of traffic fines went to a Judge, and he had her held in contempt. You explained a Judge only has power over what happens in the 4 walls of the courtroom. So, How could the guy passing out pamphlets on the sidewalk be found in contempt, since it was not within the 4 walls of the courtroom?

[@stevelehto]

I think it was someone swearing near the counter where you pay fines. But I personally think the judge overstepped his bounds in THIS case.

[@bloodgain]

While Michigan -- and I'm sure other jurisdictions -- may claim that the jury has no right to nullify or ignore the judge's instructions, I argue that while the state and the courts may have the right and responsibility to inform the jury of their task and educate them on the law, they have no right to _instruct_ them in their duty. The jury has ultimate deciding power in the courts, and no one may tell them how to decide.

[@skippylippy547]

Our founding fathers understood the evil of government.

[@Axctal]

Can you argue on that piece of "true and just" verdict - i.e. yes, verdict is true, but UNjust because law itself is bogus/unjust/etc ?

[@kaceydillin7367]

I asked for this topic. Thank you for doing a video. Will watch it when I get to work in an hour. 👌👌

[@stevelehto]

Thanks for the suggestion!

[@redram5150]

Steve, based on the story about the juror tinkering with their gun away from court, does that mean when Henry Fonda went for a walk in search of a specific switchblade the prosecutors said was one of a kind in Twelve Angry Men, he was breaking the law as well by testing their assertions?

[@bigal6684]

It's not everyday that someone references the Magna Carta! Thank You. I Remember that in my youth we drank a very mediocre beer called Magna Carta.

[@jimmoroney7529]

I have heard that a jury can ask the judge if there is a lesser crime that the defendant can be charged with in lieu of the stated charges. Sometimes the jury may think that the defendant is guilty of a lesser crime but should not face a more serious penalty. Is this true? Can a jury ask that the defendant be charged with a lesser crime?

[@stevelehto]

Generally, no. The charges made against the defendant are very important and simply switching them AFTER the trial has been completed (but during deliberation) would cause all kinds of problems. Among other things, the Defendant could argue he/she would have defended the case differently had the charges been different from the onset.

[@stevelehto]

@Jason Bowman that is common and makes sense. But once in a while, a prosecutor will go make or break on a single count.

[@larrymcneilis856]

Since SCOTUS'S finding in Marbury v. Madison that laws that are unconstitutional are null, void and without effect and therefore unenforcable, and they are not in fact 'laws' at all, for a juror to find a defendant 'guilty' of a 'law' the juror(s) believe to be unconstitutional -- and therefore is null, void without effect and unenforceable (Marbury v. Madison) -- would be impossible since there would BE no 'law' for the accused to have violated! Just as the Courts (presumably) are required to make this determination prior to even allowing the case to begin (and I would also presume even before any warrants would be issued by the court and for that matter by the police and the prosecutors before any investigations were commenced and brought to trial), isn't it also the purview and duty of the jurors to determine that the alleged 'law' that the accused is charged with IS Constitutional and valid and the methods and actions used by the police and prosecutors to investigate and prosecute the case were Constitutional as well? If a juror would find that the law itself or the methods used to investigate or prosecute the case were, in their opinion, unconstitutional, rendering a guilty verdict SHOULD be impossible since the questions raised about the constitutionality of the methods -- and especially about the constitutionality of the alleged law's validity and enforceability -- would definitely prevent them from finding the defendant guilty 'beyond a reasonable doubt'! Now, while I realize the courts/judges will (and to a LARGE extent CAN) do whatever they want until a higher court overrules them, the act of interfering with jurors examining the 'laws' the accused is charged with and the methods used by the juror to determine if the law is not nullified by being unconstitutional and that no unconstitutional acts were committed by the police and prosecutors in the case -- up to and including using jury nullification to find the defendant not guilty -- forces jurors to violate their oaths and find defendants guilty of 'nonexistent laws' (since unconstitutional acts by legislatures do NOT result in the creation of constitutional laws) or to not only allow -- but ratify -- unconstitutional acts performed by the State in their investigation or prosecution of the case to secure a 'conviction' when that is forced since it would otherwise go against the juror's conscience due to their 'reasonable doubts' about the methods used to bring the case to trial -- or even the constitutional validity and therefore existence and enforceability of the law itself. Denying jurors the ability to examine the 'laws' and the prosecutorial methods used in the case denies the jurors of their ability to render a 'true and correct' verdict. By denying juries the option of nullification, the courts are (potentially) creating false convictions! Juries MUST be allowed to use this tool to prevent those false convictions in order to be faithful to their oaths!!!

[@donbangert]

The first rule of Jury Nullification is you don't talk about Jury Nullification.

[@blazinblasphemer7500]

😂

[@rconary]

"True verdict" is an interesting question. Could you define a true verdict as any conclusion reached by a jury?

[@somebodyelse6673]

YOU could, a judge would not.

[@rconary]

@@somebodyelse6673 Is there any place in the code that defines the two terms, or are they open to interpretation?

[@WhereWhatHuh]

Am I wrong to believe that Jury nullification was at issue in Crown v. William Penn, 1670, in which a jury returned a non-guilty verdict, but was forced to deliberate for several additional weeks because the judge had expressly ordered them to find Penn guilty? And am I also wrong in believing that the example of William Penn is why jury trials are a right under the constitution?

[@stevelehto]

There were countless cases of both: juries that were told to convict and then arrested (or maltreated when they failed to do so) and famous jury trials. The notion of a jury goes back to the Magna Carta (at least for being a right) and has been part of the process ever since.