What is Mimetic Theory? (René Girard Scholars Luke Burgis & Johnathan Bi Discussion)

This is the most in depth conversation I've ever had about Rene Girard and his Mimetic Theory. Luke Burgis and Johnathan Bi take us on a journey through Mimetic Desire, Christian Wisdom, Phenomenological theories, Buddhist philosophy, and more.
Both Bergis and Bi had their lives transformed by Rene Girard’s observations. But they became frustrated with his prescriptions. They started asking: “But what should we actually do about Mimetic Theory?”
They each wrote a book to answer that question. Luke Burgis wrote one called Wanting and Johnathan Bi wrote one called Completing Girard. I hope you enjoy this interview, and get the chance to read both of their exceptional book projects.
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[@DavidPerellChannel]

Hey everybody! I hope you enjoyed this conversation. At every point in the video, I wanted to dive deeper into Girard's ideas. But if you're new to them, they can be hard to understand. Here's an introduction I wrote about Girard and one of the people who was most influenced by his work: perell.com/essay/peter-thiel/ I'll be releasing a series of Girard-focused lectures with Johnathan Bi as well. Subscribe to my channel if you'd like to see them when they go live.

[@joecoursey9366]

The world is not a rational one but a religious one. This helps explain so much.

[@slowwco]

"Often for people in their lives, conversion comes from hitting rock bottom." (Luke Burgis). Yep! Once heard it phrased, "Deep change comes from deep crisis." Even mainstream Tony Robbins has a version: "Change happens when the pain of staying the same is greater than the pain of change." My personal experience of rock bottom (an existential crisis) completely changed my life moving forward. Great conversation guys, thanks!

[@gradywells1255]

Johnathan's final riff was insane - thank you three for this conversation! Love the Tony Hsieh anecdote from Luke, religious or not, we all search for unity until we find it.

[@s2a1ha1j2a]

"All composite things are subject to birth and decay; work out your salvation with diligence." Buddha's final words on his death bed. Thanks for the discussion

[@AmitPatel-jj7xw]

Great discussion. Loved the format of this talk

[@Materialsammlung]

Incredibly helpful. Thanks!

[@gdpope52]

Just learning about Mr. Gerard. Very helpful.

[@jordanjackson7171]

incredible. thank you

[@muddi900]

This should be podcast.

[@jacksonupmann]

Great Video!

[@DavidPerellChannel]

Glad you enjoyed it.

[@vvbenk]

Thanks for doing this, David!

[@_______J.Elijah.Lilly________]

Desires are so mimetic because we are "One Mind". Desires just spread like ideas in the Unis Animus. Scapegoating works because it is unanimous.(Unanimously unconscious).

[@KaliYugaSurfCo]

Where do we find links to these guys' work?

[@JamesColeman1]

Girard’s solution to mimetic violence was to imitate Jesus. He didn’t tie himself into knots explaining what seems so obvious.

[@_______J.Elijah.Lilly________]

Hello thanks to the three of you for introducing me to Girard. I submit the following inchoate notion as 3 questions(and some song lyrics): Where does victim meet persecutor? And was Jesus ever, anyone's victim? Can you be a victim of self-sacrifice? Jesus was more like a fully-loaded freight train at speed: The fool standing in-between the train tracks has no power to persecute a locomotive. He will be run over by his so-called "victim" if refuses to cross the tracks. To sacrifice others is sinful: there is only "self" to sacrifice. To quote the philosopher Maynard James Keenan: So crucify the ego, before it's far too late And leave behind this place so negative and blind and cynical And you will come to find that we are all one mind Capable of all that's imagined and all conceivable So let the light touch you So let the words spill through And let them pass right through Bringing out our hope and reason

[@davehinton6114]

As the ancient saying goes: “when all else fails, and the individual Cartesian showman discovers himself in the very awkward position of having all the wealth and status, and all as in a confrontation with the majority of others who are starving and homeless, and all as a result of one’s own ignorance and good fortune, make oneself as incomprehensible as possible.”

[@JamesBecker-sn3ib]

Can’t find that anywhere. Source?

[@tommyrq180]

I will have to explore what “anti-mimetic” means. My original take was one contrasting internality with externality. That is, the development of internal standards/principles/orientation in a way that minimizes “negative” external mimetic urges. Sure, the internal development has externalities, but only through some sort of strong internal foundation do we develop the capacity to both identify and fight against seductive external models. Part of the “art” there is the cultivation of an ambivalent discipline, the capacity to see the good and bad in a particular external seduction and the capacity to, having explored the polarity, to choose the more philosophically positive route. So much of this is difficult to nail down. One could be an almost perfect anti-mimetic human by separating oneself entirely from society-becoming a hermit. I actually admire people like Dick Proenneke who built himself a cabin in remotest Alaska and lived there year-around with barely any human contact but for an occasional bush pilot visit. But we can all admit that’s quite out there on the spectrum. On the other hand you find people who live almost entirely negative lives fully captured by mimetic desire. I think of Bill Murray’s character in the film “Groundhog Day,” at least until he kills himself repeatedly and undergoes a conversion.

[@figgis4]

It is possible to lead a life with an internal moral compass and also a detachment whilst executing all life's duties. This is explained in detail in the Bhagavad Gita. It is described both as Karma Yoga and Sankhya yoga. Buddhism addresses this through the understanding of impermanence, but the Vedic scriptures take it a step further a referenced in the Gita., which is the supreme expression of philosophy and transcendent reality.

[@tommyrq180]

I’m glad Luke Burgis brought up mass [mimetic] formation as a picture of negative mimesis wherein the individual loses themselves to the external pull, and one that indeed is just awful for the individual, the people who know them, the society, and the nation. See, for example Eric Hoffer’s seminal book _The True Believer_ or recently Mattias Desmet on “mass formation.” Or, “deviated transcendance.” Very important for understanding so much of what afflicts western society today, all of which is self-weakening and causes the fall of once powerful societies.

[@2410manchester]

As Girard said regarding mimetic behavior, it’s when there is only 1 object to be obtained that you can clearly see this at work. For example, Lebron James idolized Michael Jordan growing up even wearing his number 23 on his jersey. Now that Lebron has accomplished an enormous amount he has been fixated on being crowned the GOAT of basketball, but there has been a near consensus for years that Michael Jordan is the GOAT, and since by definition can only be one GOAT, this rivalrous desire has steadily devolved to more and more cantankerous commentary by Lebron and those in the media along with fans who fight about it. What’s interesting is that the GOAT title is as much subjective as it is objective bc there isn’t a competition that someone can win directly for GOAT status so really there can be no actual attainment by either…only an infinite debate about who the GOAT is. It’s also playing out between the U.S. and China as mimetic rivalry is heating up between the current superpower and the rising power. I’m not sure about now, but for several decades, American men could earn a good living by giving speeches in China as “expert” with the main thing Chinese audiences caring about is that the speaker is American/western. As China has risen and become better in some capacities than the U.S. this “looking up to” Americans and westerners will become more rivalrous.

[@PeterZeeke]

This talk is so much more authentic that the most previous pretentious one

[@Atrahasis7]

Even while empathy, and positive mimetic experiences are so transformative and powerful to the few who have them and later grasp their wisdom, I cant help but feel these can only happen because as buddha says, life is suffering, its really shit out there. So I think I kind excuse Girard and his pessimism.

[@unclejj13er75]

Johnathon Bi is cool but he misses Girards 'prescriptions'. It is the Gospels. It is the message of the son of God himself, which is that we must forgive each other or we will destroy each other. Girard clearly states this in interviews. Now, How that is implemented, is the work of thousands of years of civilization which is nothing less than a work in progress. There is no separating Girard from the Christ. Nor from the message of the Gospel.

[@davehinton6114]

But I’m sure you’ll have difficulties with my use of concepts, or, put another way, you’ll seek to avoid the consequences of my words being correspondent with the reality, namely that you do not have to commit to hard labor for a living from the fear of starvation and loss of protective family or social structures. Bravo. You saved the Cartesian theatre by appealing to the death of the human species. After all, why give up all of your privilege when the world is headed towards an apocalypse? Clever? Sure.

[@peachnehi7340]

Demise 😂

[@davehinton6114]

I would politely refer to this discussion as ‘bullshit concept wagging after having awoken to the reality of one’s own privilege.”

[@davehinton6114]

I would argue that human beings are intuitive enough to recognize the sheer bull fuckery of the reality jugglers and their own positions of status, their exalted infatuation with their own lives and self-aggrandizing illusions. That’s my two cents. It’s all I’ve got: homeless.