What Is Rhetoric? (Updated)

[@MrSchizothemia]

Great video! Completely unexpected Homestar reference at the end took me out 😂

[@palaksharma9926]

Your videos are extremely helpful. Thankyou so much for this channel.

[@WritingwithAndrew]

You're very welcome!

[@ElliotBrownJingles]

Top video. Fitting animation (Quentin Blake would approve). As for Rhetoric not being able to work in a vacuum...I often wonder if people such as Lincoln, Churchill, or Edmund Burke deliberately and constantly put themselves in situations where the exercise of rhetorical devices became helpful or necessary. I have often observed politicians writing letters to the editor or taking up positions as columnists in order to give their opinions on the most disparate of matters, seemingly merely to exercise their power to persuade.

[@WritingwithAndrew]

Thanks! And that's an interesting thought--it makes sense. Kenneth Burke writes about "pure persuasion" is just doing rhetoric (to put it clumsily) for its own pleasure rather than to accomplish something. There might be something to it

[@DrDanLawrence]

I like how Gerard Hauser puts it, something like rhetoric is what emerges in indeterminate spaces (exactly like you describe in the second half of the video in "Rhetoric in Action," where we often come across situations where there is no perfect scientific answer to a complex problem). I've had trouble tracing the history of this conception of rhetoric, though--do you have a sense of where this may come from? I mean I think you can pin some correlating ideas to Plato's Phaedrus but it's certainly not exact, and it sounds to me more like a 20th century American idea. I've read this conception/definition of rhetoric in Garsten's "Saving Persuasion" as well, but have wondered where it originates if anywhere in particular.

[@WritingwithAndrew]

That's an interesting question--I don't know if I could point to where somebody says it outright for the first time, but I think you can find an awareness that that's where rhetoric works even as far back as Lysias. I often think of his "On the Death of Eratosthenes" as an example of rhetoric being used to address those kinds of indeterminate situations (and I've got a video about it too 😉: kzbin.info/www/bejne/h2fUoHuNjJdpapo)

[@Khatoon170]

How are you doing mr Andrew. Iam Arabic lady subscriber to several British and American KZbin channels. Thank you for your wonderful educational channel about writing skills . We appreciate your great efforts especially us as foreigners subscribers as overseas students want to increase our cultural level improve our English language as well. I looked up for meaning of rhetoric in English language is art of written or spoken communication. Synonyms oratorical, vocal , bombastic. Opposite of rhetoric is in articulation . In simple term rhetoric definition is study who writer and speaker uses words in influence audiences. Characteristics of rhetoric are invention , style , arrangement, style , memory , delivery. My name is khatoon it’s Turkish origin means Nobel lady as princess. Your name is Greek origin means ( strong , Courageous). Iam subscriber to dr Barry vann channel vantage point 65 episodes only about surnames in USA origin means. Ihope ican learn a lot from your knowledge. You like my research. Good luck to you your dearest ones . Happy belated Independence Day.

[@WritingwithAndrew]

I'm glad you're finding the videos helpful--thanks for watching!

[@Jan96106]

You may think it is a crime to fail to stop at a stop sign (and it is according to law), but one judge ignored the law and excused the ticket of someone who ignored the stop sign and drove into the other driver who had the right of way and no stop sign. So much for laws if they are broken with impunity.

[@CraigSwanson-s7h]

You had me with the copy of Burke on the shelf. But only the Grammar and not the Rhetoric? (In a video on rhetoric.) C’mon now.

[@WritingwithAndrew]

Ha! Since it's red, it lives with the red books (so it's probably just behind my head). Rest assured, it is there 😉

[@metaspacecrownedbytime4579]

This was a tutorial with examples where you might use rhetoric and suggesting that it might be advantages to use it, but contrary to the title, it does not tell me what it is.

[@WritingwithAndrew]

A different approach is not a contrary approach: because rhetoric has been defined in so many ways over so many years, it can be more helpful to start by developing a sense for it rather than being given a definition. So the goal here is not to tell you a definition of rhetoric but to show, as you've pointed out, how and where it works. This is a place to start--the rest of the channel deals with rhetoric at other levels

[@dangerousflyer4485]

There is a crashcourse series on rhetoric if another perspective would help

[@los8011]

Begin your search where time was transcendent Crack open the books they're interdependent Lift up your eyes and look for the mark Hike to the tree that stands without bark Pass the grain tower that looks out to the west Not more than an hour you'll know by its crest Look down at your map to not wander with thirst Remember two less than on top of the first You'll know you're close where it's time to frown What points towards heaven but is upside down? Get off the road at the airplane without wings Search from the shoulder and fortune it will bring .where do i start

[@0annonymous]

One thing to remember is sometimes the other party JUST WON'T BUDGE. That's when you may just as well agree to disagree and move on instead of trying to convince them further. Trying to convince them further can in some cases turn out to be comparable to talking to a brick wall when some people just won't change their minds

[@WritingwithAndrew]

Indeed

[@zumwun]

I'm surprised you didn't mention dialectic.. Is it not Relevant? Or could you cover dialectic in another vid? Seems like You definitely played Super Mario World 3.. nefarious flying ship and a raccoon... Hmmm. Also rhetoric and persuasion seems so similar but perhaps rhetoric can't be intentionally misleading?

[@WritingwithAndrew]

For Aristotle dialectic and rhetoric are different tools for different jobs (I talk more about his distinction in the playlist on his Rhetoric). As for rhetoric and persuasion, they're historically seen as the same (rhetoric is the art of persuasion), but modern theorists have expanded rhetoric's scope. In any case, this video is really meant as a basic introduction, for getting the feel of rhetoric more than anything else. Would you believe I haven't played Super Mario World 3? Although, I do see the connections now that you mention them 😆

[@upgrade1015]

This was more about morals and ethics than it was about rhetoric bro

[@WritingwithAndrew]

The subdiscipline of rhetorical ethics has a long history, my dude

[@taxfree4603]

I still dont understand screw this i am dropping out and working at mcdonalds

[@PASTAPASTA_PASTA]

I wish this video was 100 hours

[@WritingwithAndrew]

Oof, I'd probably still be editing it if it were 😆

[@felixst-gelais6722]

the problem with rhetoric is that no matter how well intentionned you may be, it is intrinsically deceptive, manipulative and fallacious :( and as a proud pedant, it hurts me very much.

[@WritingwithAndrew]

That's one of the more persistent and counterproductive misunderstandings of rhetoric--Aristotle went to pains to explain its usefulness after Plato dismissed rhetoric as a cheap knockoff of philosophy, and, even still, introductory textbooks almost always have to spend time disabusing readers of the notion that rhetoric is inherently problematic. It's a little like saying science is inherently violent and destructive because some people have used scientific principles to create deadly weapons. Rhetoric is a tool for understanding human discourse and applying that understanding in order to communicate more effectively, and, especially since the mid 20th century, it's been a discipline committed to calling out and challenging deceptive and abusive discourse--not creating more of it.

[@felixst-gelais6722]

​@@WritingwithAndrew Now now, ive never said it wasn't useful or unnecessary in our day to day life. It is! But it's no misunderstanding, and it is problematic as far as getting "the good answer" goes because that is the domain of logic, not rhetoric. After all, if rhetoric is the art of *persuading* then logic is the art of *convincing* . When someone uses rhetoric, it is because they cant substantiate their argument logically. The moment you appeal to emotion or do anything to make an argument go *your* way (as opposed to taking it all the way to it's logical conclusion) you are being selfishly deceptive and/or manipulative and so any rhetorical argument is inherently fallacious (because if it wasn't, it would be a logical argument!) Yet, despite my obvious disdain of it, i have to acknowledge again that it is the only tool that is any use in situations where one is faced with limited resources. That is simply the reality of our human condition. I would more than welcome a follow up :) (and debate examples, im down for that too if you are)

[@WritingwithAndrew]

@@felixst-gelais6722 If not a misunderstanding, then a mischaracterization. Rhetoric is not a study of truth in the same way that philosophy and formal logic are. Rhetoric is a study of discourse and human motives. I've gone into more depth in other videos, so I won't bore everyone by repeating myself, but Aristotle and others since have pointed out that the truth often is not, by itself, sufficient to move people to act. You can have the convincing answer, but it's good for nothing if nobody cares to listen. Rhetoric doesn't ignore logic, but it also recognizes that there are meaningful truths beyond those produced by strict rationality. So the idea that rhetoric is what we resort to when we can't rely on logic is a little strange (to say the least) since it's a fundamental part of the rhetorical process (and the timeless trio of ethos, pathos, and logos). And, when so much of rhetorical practice and theory is devoted to cultivating empathic understanding and collaboration across difference, the claim that it is fundamentally self-serving and manipulative also misses the mark. Aristotle even argued that rhetoric is a necessary tool in the face of those who would manipulate and deceive (notably, he doesn't point to logic as the saving method in such cases). The perennial argument that rhetoric is a shoddy substitute for logic or philosophy is one that overlooks the fact that they're engaged in fundamentally different tasks and that each does what the other can't. If one really is a counterfeit of the other, it wouldn't make sense to require students to take composition classes and philosophy. Why ask them to study the correct way to do things while requiring them to learn the sloppy, fraudulent way as well?

[@TheBraunzone]

There are no truths that escape rationality.

[@upgrade1015]

Rhetoric is sales