What is the best way to learn Ancient Greek? Review of ATHENAZE and other methods

This livestream originally aired on Nov 5, 2021, on the main polýMATHY channel: • What is the best way t...
My current best method for most people who want to learn Ancient Greek.
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#podcast #livestream #greek

[@user-Skauraor]

Answer: Just watch FRIENDS with Ancient Greek subtitles

[@polyMATHYplus]

Haha

[@miastupid7911]

Make it happen. :)

[@andriesscheper2022]

The 'Donald Duck' was effective for me to learn some Swedish... Maybe 'Asterix' to learn Latin? 😊

[@iberius9937]

Your analogy about the mountain presented by Ancient Greek learning materials being rockier and like jumping from boulder to boulder is very telling since that happens to be part the geography of Greece!

[@hrvatskiapoksiomen9]

The best way is to find a teacher like Polymathy 👌

[@DiomedesDioscuro]

God knows that we're still lacking a good ancient Greek method we can rely on, and I find it incredible! I wonder what are they (or we) waiting for.

[@polyMATHYplus]

I’m working on it

[@jasonbaker2370]

You are making custom material for learning Ancient Greek Luke? If so, I'll definitely get it, especially if there is audio for it as well or a KZbin Playlist done by you.

[@wardafournello]

1) You learn to speak and to write modern Greek. 2) By reading Byzantine ecclesiastical texts you learn orthography, intonation ,and you deal with the etymology of the words. 3) You start reading the New Testament. 4) You start reading Plato and Aristotle ,tragedies and comedies. 5) You start reading Homer and Sappho. 6) You start reading Linear Β' 7) You decode Linear A'.

[@polyMATHYplus]

That would be the way to master Greek literature at all its stages. But the grammar, vocabulary, and pronunciation of Mediaeval and Modern Greek (when these are not archaizing) is quite different from that of Ancient Greek, including Koine and Classical literature. Thus one may certainly master Modern Greek first and go backwards, just as one may master modern Italian, then Old Italian, then Mediaeval Latin, then Classical Latin. While this is an edifying experience in itself, these steps are not necessary to achieve a he goal of mastering the ancient or classical language, assuming that is the goal. Otherwise I could say you have to master Spanish before learning French, or German before attempting Dutch. Indeed, these two couples of modern languages are far closer to each other than Ancient Greek is to Modern Greek or Italian is to Latin.

[@wardafournello]

@@polyMATHYplus I exaggerate on purpose, it is humanly impossible to learn the Greek language in its entire time evolution. Millions of verbal forms and dozens of dialects. However, there is also this point of view: kzbin.info/www/bejne/rYmld4VnqteSjKc Congratulations you are a ΤΕΡΑΣ ΠΟΛΥΜΑΘΕΙΑΣ.

[@apprendrelerusse635]

Hi there is a method called Λόγος written by Santiago Carbonel Martinez which is entirely written in ancien Greek and follows the same pattern as Familia Romana.

[@cpnlsn88]

Thank you for your comment on Koine - helpful! Many people have interest in being able read the New Testament at least.

[@seamasmacliam1898]

There is a Spanish translation of the Italian Athenaze. I could only find it as a PDF. I think it might be a work-in-progress which hopefully will hit the printers some day!

[@haveagoodday2405]

χαιρετε !!!!! συγχαρητηρια Λουκ για το εργο σου !!!

[@cncurry11]

I went through Lingua Latina twice and was arrested at the chapter where the doctor comes and there's all the talk about parts of the body. It just got to bee too difficult there. I went back to Wheelock, my old college textbook and it was like a breath of fresh air. Everything was so clear. Now, however, I seem to have developed an addiction to classical Greek. I started out trying Athenaze, but I was overwhelmed by the vocabulary. I still keep in touch with my old college classics teacher and he said only the brightest of his students could keep up with Athenaze. Knowing I'm not one of those students, I opted to again use my old college textbook, which my college professor particularly likes. It's Crosby and Shaeffer's Introduction to Greek. The vocabulary is minimal. The lessons brief. It's nice. For awhile. I found this video because I am now in lesson 41 and I feel lost. I've learned all the conditional phrases, but still have a difficult time with them. I've learned participles, but I don't know when to use them when translating into Greek. There's so much more and I am all kinds of confused. Every now and then in my study, I've pulled out my uncle's old New Testament Greek (by Huddleston) textbook and it is much more clear and I like the more peaceful vocabulary. It also has very short lessons with small vocabulary. It makes me feel like I know something about Greek. Then I return to Crosby and Schaeffer and feel again like I know nothing. I pulled out Athenaze again last night. I know the grammar. I just have a hard time reading through a passage when I have to constantly be checking the vocabulary in order to understand what I'm reading. I have the british textbook. I also have the Italian version on my computer, but I guess I'm an old fogey because I hate trying to read books on my computer screen. I also have a very frugal techy husband, who insists we have a printer that prints badly because it is cheap. Is there a way to purchase the Italian Athenaze in a paper format? (From the US) Do you have any advice for a person like me?

[@athank3509]

Learning modern Greek helps a lot since many things are the same in modern Greek and Ancient Greek

[@athank3509]

@PseudeaEpimetheus similar /ˈsɪm(ɪ)lə/ adjective having a resemblance in appearance, character, or quantity, without being identical. "a soft cheese similar to Brie"

[@choreomaniac]

You know how to push his buttons! There’s a 5 hour video of his you should watch.

[@DonGonzalito]

Loving resource, thanks!

[@jonasvestlund1191]

I got Alexandros in the mail a few days ago. Exited.

[@queensofthedthrone8267]

Tried searching 2000 Ancient Greek words like Greek Pod 101 does for modern Greek and only got this so far. If only the ideal were real!

[@polyMATHYplus]

I’m actually working on that project! If it’s not done in two months please feel free to bug me about it.

[@AahhBurnedToast]

@@polyMATHYplus I am here to bug you about it

[@ariebrons7976]

Oh man, Princeton has made a huge mistake in dropping the classical language requirement. I read Aristoteles on the soul, ironically enough the translation is more difficult than the Greek. Not only that, but you lose a lot of the refferences that way too.

[@polyMATHYplus]

I tend to agree

[@landy4497]

watching this while procrastinating my latin literature homework lol

[@choreomaniac]

Have you looked at the koine Greek books geared toward New Testament Greek learners? It seems they might be more accessible and could be the best way to learn.

[@rexpolyglotus2802]

I would love to learn Ancient Greek at some point (once I've gotten better at Latin), but the resources available don't really seem ideal. Finding enough input is already somewhat tricky for Latin, but at least we've got Lingua Latin per se Illustrata and your lovely podcast Legio XIII

[@polyMATHYplus]

Thanks for the compliment. You’re right; there is much more for Latin. It’s not easy with Greek.

[@philodonoghue3062]

Learnt Latin at high school up to final year. Got top in class at end of year prize giving. Incidentally, I was the only one in the class! Mind you, that meant I was also bottom of the class too. 😂

[@JoaoPedroGallavotti]

I am doing the Latin and Greek course on Duolingo and I very much like it. I hope once I get enough vocabulary it will be easier to learn the Ancient Greek and the right pronunciation of Latin. Right?

[@Aditya-te7oo]

32:25 The text's name is Lingua Graeca Per Se Illustrata.

[@polyMATHYplus]

Seumas’s book is a wonderful accomplishment so far, but it’s incomplete and isn’t useful for a beginner. It’s a good reader for someone who already knows basic Ancient Greek

[@choreomaniac]

Do you think Athenaze but with glosses in Latin rather than Italian would be useful? It seems that there are many good reasons to have a year or two of Latin experience, especially for English speakers, before studying Greek. I believe that was normal 100 years ago. There might not be much demand for Athenaze in 12 languages but a Latin version could be used by anyone with familiarity with Latin, which would be good fraction of those wanting to learn Greek.

[@Columbator]

That is really a question. As you point, there is no method allowing to start from scratch without knowing at least English or Italian, and it's a problem. The fact that you did some videos to fill the gap is a great thing. But how about adapting them into a book that would complete Athenaze?

[@polyMATHYplus]

Hello, my friend! Well, that’s exactly what I intended with the Ancient Greek in Action series. The first twelve episodes prepare you for being able to read the beginning of Athenaze

[@Columbator]

@@polyMATHYplus The question was in fact: “how about adapting your videos series ‘Ancient Greek in Action’ into a book that would complement Athenaze?” :) The video format is nice, of course, but Athenaze already being a book, having the complement on the same medium would be convenient.

[@Ded_Silu]

Besides Max, try Dasha, Olga Jerell, Fedor, Russian from Russia, and several others. Feel free to ask me for suggestions!

[@LM1234Life]

I don't really have time to sit down and watch all these videos, do you have this as audio on a podcast platform somewhere? Then I could download the audio and listen while I do farm chores or go for a walk (without having to use data).

[@notnotnotnotlao]

Thoughts on Luschnig’s Introduction to Ancient Greek?

[@polyMATHYplus]

I’m not familiar with it

[@GuillaumeStein-sf7fj]

Ancient Greek in action -> Athenazen eng chp1 -> Athenaze italian chp1->reappear through athenaze

[@VictorOrdonez-ei5cc]

Vamos a mantener en Roma en una de las Cesareans . Los principios y el estudio

[@ardaunlu2629]

Hi, first of all thanks for the great videos. My goal is to understand philosophers such as Plato, Aristotle, Parmenides, Heraclitus and other presocratics. After a quick research I've learned that there many ancient Greek dialects and eras. Which one should I learn? Is learning ancient Greek and following the steps you mentioned means that I am learning attic Greek? I am a bit confused. Thanks in advance.

[@polyMATHYplus]

Hi there. Learning textbook Ancient Greek is what you want. The books I mentioned here will take you on the right course.

[@seanhavern9864]

Attic Greek is the best dialect to learn first

[@asicdathens]

Attic Greek is notoriously difficult. I would suggest to try first Hellenistic Greek that is extremely close to modern katharevousa Greek (there are plenty of resources especially due to new testament) before delving into the difficult. As someone who was forced to learn ancient Greek in high school and studied passages from Iliad and Plato's apology I wish you good luck. Perhaps you may succeed in something the 80% of Greek kids in high-school failed miserably

[@elijahl-s5184]

Have you ever thought of writing short paragraphs in Greek catered to helping the beginner? Like what we see in the Latin textbook.

[@polyMATHYplus]

I have indeed! More to come on this

[@ryam4632]

Do you have any advice on advanced topics such as athematic and contracting verbs, second aorist/future/perfect aspects? There is no clear regularity there. I wonder if some linguistic theory can make it more understandable and consequently more memorable.

[@polyMATHYplus]

That’s a fair question. My practice has been to memorize all the possible forms outright: luke-ranieri.myshopify.com/collections/frontpage/products/ancient-greek-by-the-ranieri-dowling-method-latin-summary-of-forms-of-nouns-verbs-adjectives-pronouns-audio-grammar-tables

[@francescaemc2]

Hello, I did not quite understand. I am a native-born speaker of Italian --(Milano)-- I do not know Latin...or Koine. I am interested in Ancient Greek... are you recommending the italian book rather than the English one for a beginner? Grazie per la Sua gentile assistenza. Salve.

[@danselmopreciado]

Ha detto che la versione italiana ha più testo greco rispetto alla versione inglese. Perciò, sarebbe migliore. Ma il fatto è che non tutte le persone conoscono l'italiano (per capire le spiegazioni grammaticali contenute nel libro). Perciò, se il discente non conosce l'italiano, ma sa l'inglese, potrebbe leggere e studiare prima il testo/capitolo nella versione inglese (testi più brevi, spiegazioni in inglese) e dopo andare a rifare lo stesso capitolo nella versione italiana (testo più sviluppato, ma con le stesse parole e costruzioni grammaticali).

[@francescaemc2]

@@danselmopreciado La ringrazio.

[@hedylus]

Haven't you noticed that Latin Greek is very ancient Greek but using the alphabet which Latinos took to Italy from Western Greece!?

[@joeyv8197]

I wanna translate the book of psalms to ancient greek, make it mor mystical and more energized

[@sascha8460]

It does exist today -> lingua graeca per se illustrata

[@yannisdoganis9108]

ΠΟΛΥΜΑΘΥ πολυμαθής παντογνώστης ευρυμαθής

[@cw4karlschulte661]

Regarding the Greek Church the proou ciation is.modern unfortunately. Too many " eee". sou ds. However if you study chants, espe ially the lldests, you can find "fossils" of the ancient tonal system and vowel length there. I suspect that the melody and poetry aspects and father to chanter " offspring" is conservative and nolds on to older forms. In Chesapeake dialect of story tellers of tales like Jack Tales still recite in Elizabethan style even the w in sword is preserved. But not in their every day speech as much.

[@pauljuduv1417]

❤❤❤

[@nassoseconomopoulos2387]

Hi Luke I’m not an expert in any shape or form, as a native speaker I’m puzzled by the accent discussion and theories. In the Greek Orthodox Church the gospel is still read in the original form. The rituals remain almost unchanged since the 3rd century AD the time of St Basil and even before. The church being a conservative institution would have logically preserved the original accent even if most of the text is in koine. There is some evidence in some local dialects of different accents including tsakonika which according to experts has traces of doric but these are not mainstream. My view is any changes in ancient accents moving away from attic probably started around 1st century AD. Views?

[@polyMATHYplus]

Γεια, Νάσσε, thanks for the comment. The first thing to address is that you are indeed a native speaker of Modern Greek, but you are *not* a native speaker of Ancient Greek, just as I am a native speaker of Modern English, not a native speaker of Old English. Old English is, of course, a different language from Modern English, and the pronunciation is radically different. Equally, Ancient Greek is a different language from Modern Greek, and the pronunciation is radically different. I have made several videos about the changing pronunciation of Ancient Greek which I recommend you watch. Greek Pronunciation: φ θ χ (phi theta chi) kzbin.info/www/bejne/a53GepaPe9uYf6s Greek Pronunciation: ζ (zeta) kzbin.info/www/bejne/nJq2eKt6i5h9f7M Greek Pronunciation: ει kzbin.info/www/bejne/eIDUlaWNobdnfdk Greek Pronunciation: ῥ (rho) kzbin.info/www/bejne/a4KWlouvr6yNmck Lucian Pronunciation of Ancient Greek kzbin.info/www/bejne/eqWcq2h9q9Vmg68 If this is a topic that interests you, I also highly recommend the books I cite in these videos.

[@nassoseconomopoulos2387]

@@polyMATHYplus Λουκά Χαίρε! My point is every Sunday texts like the gospel and the letters of the Apostle Paul are read from the original which is dating in the 1st. The texts are being read in the exact same way for 20 centuries. This suggests that any changes in pronunciation must have taken long before that. What are your views?

[@DanielTanios]

​​@@nassoseconomopoulos2387 Well, it hasn't been read the same way for 20 centuries. Absent an ancient audio tape, I'm not sure where this claim comes from? Yes, they're reading Koine, but that doesn't mean in the slightest that they preserved the accent. The Catholic church preserved Latin readings up until the present, and yet it is well understood that the ecclesiastical pronunciation they use was different in some important ways to classical Latin. It's still Latin, just like the readings in the Greek Orthodox church are still Koine -- but that doesn't mean the original pronunciations have been preserved. Such a thing is impossible to do over such a long period of time. Although accent changes can happen quickly during radical social upheavals, they also occur slowly over time, each slight change being too subtle for each passing generation to notice. But five, ten, fifteen generations down, the difference has become substantial -- but anyone who could correct you is long since dead! That's why you can pass down an oral tradition of pronouncing a particular text in a particular way, and still fail to preserve the original accent over centuries or millennia. That's just the way it is. This is even the case with Arabic, which of all the classical languages is most associated with obsession with phonetic fidelity. But, although this is not well understood in the Arab world, there are differences in the way Modern Standard Arabic is pronounced and the way Classical Arabic would have been pronounced. And we know this because some Arab Grammarians left extremely detailed phonetic descriptions about how various consonants were pronounced (lookin at u ض). So even a *written* tradition of exacting, precise linguistic description (in addition to a rigorous oral tradition) was not capable of maintaining the original accent. Heck, the written evidence -- and evidence via linguistic reconstruction using the many extant modern dialects -- isn't even capable of convincing most Arabs that any changes happened at all. That being the case, it's just totally impossible to preserve accents over such long periods of time. An oral tradition isn't nearly enough -- and probably nothing is. I suspect that even with audio recordings and with modern media, languages will continue doing what they do and change slowly over time (even if more slowly than before). As for the timeline of when the bulk of the changes associated with Koine occurred, no one knows for sure. A discussion of the evidence can be found on the Wikipedia page: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koine_Greek_phonology

[@choreomaniac]

Thee are many many examples of liturgical languages changing pronunciations due to the changes in the secular language, it almost seems inevitable. Old Church Slavonic. Coptic. Syriac. Latin. The secular language diverged from the sacred. It’s just the nature of language. Look at the Great Vowel Shift in English where there were huge changes in a short period of time. Words were not pronounced how they were spelled. But they didn’t notice. Do you think Greek and Greek alone is immune to change?

[@nassoseconomopoulos2387]

Well it has been. What is the proof? None of the Greek dialects including Tsakonika which is tracing back to Doric have preserved evidence of diphthongs being pronounced differently. There are archaeological evidence which show that Ancient Athenians did dictation errors writing Αριστίδες instead of Αριστείδης. What you also fail to understand is in Ancient Greek same as in today’s Greek there were multiple pronunciations not one. Athenians made fun of Spartans or Macedonians because of their pronunciation. Certain pronunciations over time become more popular for different reasons. However this does not mean lack of continuity it simply means that the current form has been the most dominant over the centuries.

[@amiroelamerio2526]

Is it ok to learn latin and ancient Greek together or it's better to take a course in one of them then begin with the other?

[@HCRAYERT.]

How many hours of efficient study do you believe it would take a learner of Ancient Greek to become a fluent reader or speaker, do you have an estimate like the ones CEFR does for modern languages?

[@Zfuqua4]

Any chance we will get some songs in Ancient Greek?

[@polyMATHYplus]

Absolutely. Time will provide the opportunity

[@ruralsquirrel5158]

Latin through Greek: I'm sure you can find a Modern Greek textbook that teaches Latin. That should be easy enough.

[@polyMATHYplus]

Absolutely. But Modern Greek is not Ancient Greek. What is it you’re suggesting?

[@sethpryor5829]

Have you checked out Mark Jeong’s A Greek Reader? If not you need to!

[@polyMATHYplus]

I haven’t yet

[@sjohnvogel]

Thanks for all your comments. When I studied Ancient Greek my professors used either Chase and Phillips or Hansen and Quinn. I noticed you didn’t mention them, though I’m sure you must be aware of them. What’s your take on them?

[@asg32000]

Luke, do your Ancient Greek in Action (AGIA) video numbers line up with the Athenaze chapter numbers? E.g. watch AGIA1, read UK Athenaze 1, read Italian Athenaze 1, watch AGIA2, read UK Athenaze 2, read Italian Athenaze 2, etc.?

[@polyMATHYplus]

They’re actually all meant to be viewed before starting Athenaze Ch1

[@heroduelist9242]

Can you give me a link for those 12 videos?🙂

[@polyMATHYplus]

Here you go kzbin.info/aero/PLU1WuLg45Six4gYLaBrTAIvfjXWKJ1EkN Search for AGIA ScorpioMartianus

[@ArmyDoll91]

What about for learning modern Greek? ☺️

[@polyMATHYplus]

I’ll let you know when I find one! Rosetta Stone is expensive but adequate if that’s your thing.

[@ArmyDoll91]

@@polyMATHYplus awesome thank you!!

[@cw4karlschulte661]

Real issue in Ancient and "Bible Greek" texts is they are teacni g to read, not speak, Greek. And to minutely analyze word by word, not to read fluently or to converse. My fav old text for that is the early Teach Yourself series of which New Testament and Classical are two volumes. Many obscure and more.popular languages and .any other subjects are part of this collection. Violin, archeology, radio and so on are taugnt bh this amazing publisher. Desig ed to fit i to a jacket pocet, they can be with hou everywhere. Ready to whip out and study while waiting for a bus, on work breaks and so on. I have a dozen including old, Koine and Modern Greek plus Turkish, Irish, Icela dic and violin plus Astronomy and brain surgery. No not that but it would not surprise me. Dati v from the last days of the British Empire, it includes about every native la guage withi it. A bookstore in Ankara nad the entire collection which filled an entire 12 x 20 ft. wall. Were they for intensive university level study? No but equal to a two year course in jr. college. They still exist and are a geat fi d in any subject. Oh i forgot Latin. The other nice thi g is the Loeb library of classics. Read Greek classics, church fathers and so on in the orig LL in shirt pocket volumes. They have them in English as well. Perfect for a follow up to first year or two of study, to casually read Euripades or the Anabasis for casual relaxation wnile eating i a Greek restaurant to enhance the experience!

[@faithlesshound5621]

The original Teach Yourself Ancient Greek by Smith & Meluish was unusual in that it printed the Greek text without accents, which meant that a beginner could not learn the accent along with spelling of the word. I don't know if that eccentricity has been repeated in the new edition by Betts & Henry, which eschews the letter sigma, substituting "c" instead.

[@tanzanos]

The closest pronunciation of ancient Greek is the Cypriot pronunciation. What passes as ancient Greek pronunciation by foreigners is laughable at best. I am Greek, and I can read and understand most Greek of Cleopatra's time.

[@cw4karlschulte661]

Sorrg typos bad kb

[@nicka.papanikolaou9475]

The best way is to avoid listening to foreign academics who think they know...an good example is their conviction that the ancients were ...gay...hence all the bs that has been propagated about their being liscivious etc.

[@polyMATHYplus]

What on earth are you talking about?

[@dylutant]

I'm really enjoying Hansen and Quinn's Intensive Course. I got through about half of Reading Greek, Athenaze (English, 'cause that's the one in the library), and about a dozen lessons into Zuntz, yet felt like I didn't learn anything or even attain basic comprehension. H&Q is a grammar from a fire hose, but it helped me make sense of a bunch of stuff. I'm thinking of returning to those after finishing H&Q or go and use Ἕλληνές ἐσμεν πάντες. It's a Polish textbook with *lots* of fun texts (lesson 2 already gives you a simplified fragment from Herodotus, one about crocodiles, and Aesop's Cat and Mouse ), but without an answer key it's less than useless for an autodidact.

[@foulmercy8095]

Laudami tibi, Magister Luke. The highest respect for those who devote their time to helping others learn. My Latin is probably incorrect but the message still stands. Gratias tibi ago Luke

[@polyMATHYplus]

Grātiam tibi referō

[@cw4karlschulte661]

Again xorrg.for typos. The kb is not at fajlt. Habe lost.much of my vision.

[@faithlesshound5621]

One major change to the study of classical languages in our time has been the abolition of corporal punishment. Boys attending a school in Roman times expected to be flogged by their teacher, even if he was a Greek slave himself. That tradition was passed down by the church to secular educators. Use of the cane or strap continued in most of the UK until the 1980's.

[@ailblentyn]

Review of Martínez’s “LOGOS”, please!

[@polyMATHYplus]

I have: kzbin.info/www/bejne/aKfak2Sti9-Dm8Usi=D4zZdBsx_a7oyTUs

[@ailblentyn]

@@polyMATHYplus Thanks! I missed that one - even though I listened to your responses to the responses!