What is the Python Job Delusion?

[@Ultrajamz]

A lot of companies are trying to pull back the remote work and we need to resist it. Frankly I work harder remote knowing I don’t have to dress up and drive. I work overtime and off hours remote as I want! If I had to wake up earlier and drive, I would clock in at 9 and clock out at 5 hard stop.

[@szopad7832]

most people don't really work well in remote from what I hear

[@Meleeman011]

same dude, I'll never work in the office as long as I can but I desire to be really productive, I'll keep doing oddweb jobs before I join a corp

[@crazycoder9356]

@@szopad7832 source: i made it up.

[@crazycoder9356]

Learn to code bro, go do some small projects in C/C++, than start focusing on a area, dont try to rush the fundamentals.

[@szopad7832]

@@crazycoder9356 do you think companies would prefer to get people back into the office if they worked better from home?

[@Rei-m3g]

I have learnt javascript and this language croos all barriers almost 80% of web is just frontend work hence you don't need to bother with learning another backend , frameworks are many but they all share similar structure and pattern . Php is awesome but learning a language gives you the common sense to choose the right tool for you next project.

[@ConnoisseurOfExistence]

Good video. I was one of those who fell into exactly that delusion. I was thinking that I'll be able to get data science or AI job without a degree, just with Python. I've learnt Python on my own, I solved lots of challenges, I did projects and so on... Applied for jobs and didn't get any. However, I'm not the one that just want to get into coding for the good salaries or something, I actually want to do AI. I've just started a degree course in data science and neuroscience (aged 38).

[@therodolfool]

Very nice, keep at it man!

[@astronemir]

Did you have a side-relevant PhD? Like math, physics, bioscience etc.? I’ve seen a lot of my fellow PhDs in astrophysics get these jobs with, according to me, pretty deficient python skills. I’m on the same transition myself, although my software developer skills are strong.

[@ConnoisseurOfExistence]

@@astronemir I don't have any degree. According to youtube videos, you can get Python jobs without a degree and even many are saying it's not worth it to get a degree at all, better learn by yourself and get a job. My plan was to try get an internship in some big company and then try to progress from inside (while learning online by myself) into AI. Or I was also ready to get a job in a startup, just to gain some experience first. But I couldn't get any job for 1 year applying every day for jobs. And I'm quite good at solving coding challenges, I could have probably got in competitive programming, if I started early. I used to go to math and physics competitions in high school. Tried to study physics once upon a time, but could't continue for financial reasons (student loans weren't available in my country).

[@ConnoisseurOfExistence]

@@therodolfool Thanks!

[@wld-ph]

Try Engineering, or anything with a Science bent... RR Jet Engines.. etc... Crypto... Pharma... I built a 24/7 ´war-room´ dragging client-side data from factories into our support team. Automated monitoring, and support would sit looking at the phone, the factory cctv, oh there comes someone... ´cos we knew their process had gone awry, before they did... it was our machines, monitored 24/7 worlkd-wide, through firewalls and all that. We couldn´t release our proprietary controls code, but the half-way house was BINGO..

[@Realrebitsch]

The way i got start as a python developer was as a test developer. I found that it is pretty much the only kind of job that is in relatively high demand, and where they will consider you if you are a beginner. I agree with Stef, it is not the obvious choice for a first language. Now i have a core python developer job, but what got me hired other than the QA background (which is very valuable) is my unfinished chemistry degree. Most of my coworkers have either a STEM background, or are trained developers who transitioned to python from C++. Companies will usually have you pick up python on the fly as someone with experience in an other language. If you only know python, you will need either previous work experience, or something else going for you.

[@J.Giovanni]

Yea there are Python software engineering jobs out there but like you said regarding Java, those kind of jobs are hard to get without a computer science degree. I feel the web stack is the best route to take to get a dev job without having to go back and get a degree. Python is used a lot in higher up IT jobs like cloud, networking engineering. security, etc but those usually aren't entry level jobs either.

[@mkoller]

This is really bad advice. As a self-taught programmer, having interest in what you're learning is key. If not, chances are high you'll burnout or give up. Some people need more than the prospect of a "high salary" to keep learning after the honeymoon phase has worn off. Furthermore, AI is most likely the next boom in the startup world. Data scientist roles in Big Tech might require advanced degrees but startups will not.

[@johnmcway6120]

I watched the same video from you before I got hired for my first backend position 2 years ago and got very very discouraged. I got hired as a python Django dev. Please don't let this man discourage you.

[@scrotiemcboogerballs2133]

What sort of projects did you do and is this a SMB company?

[@chiatuirodaniel673]

He didn't discourage you probably didn't pay enough attention.

[@jhonatanjk1251]

holy shit i haven't even started the video but thank you for this comment, that's exactly what I'm learning right now since it's what I liked the most, i'm working on a django project to add to my portfolio

[@W0WGaBB]

Thank you!

[@Micha-pf2pl]

I've felt into this trap, learned a bit of python/django - wanted to do webdevelopment - however, I've started to see that here in Poland most webdev jobs are rather in JS than python - > I've already started learning JS and it is way easier when u already know the basics of some sort of language... it's all good though because journey continues !!! : )

[@sr-xd8jb]

Which websites you use to find jobs in Poland?/

[@bavidlynx3409]

Bruh i feel you 😭 i wasted my time with django where as my friends in my cs degree took the js route and got the job right away 😭

[@Micha-pf2pl]

Yeah , but Man take your time -learn things through frequent project creating and have fun if there No sense of urgency

[@deni_lerefare]

@@bavidlynx3409 I dont think thats a waste of time buddy, but yeah.

[@pkrockin3923]

seems like it depends on where you live. In the philippines Python is becoming more ubiquitous just like php particularly in webdev field but not so much in data science.

[@GenerallyGoodMusic]

I'm a data engineer, and I got the job only having studied Python and SQL in my freetime...no bachelor degree, data science training, or previous IT job. That being said, I'm clearly an outlier, and that this video speaks the truth. When I chose to learn Python, I didn't know I'd probably land in data, otherwise I would have spent my time learning something else. Plus, I ended up having to use SQL 10x more than Python.

[@josephtran1500]

Dude, thats insane. It took me 4 years and a data science bootacmp, after getting a degree in mech engineering, to land a job as a data analyst. Its more of a 'data engineer lite' role as I basically write pipelines all day.

[@whatwasisaying1338]

Plus, the term Data Analyst and Data Scientist is used very loosely in some organizations.

[@whatwasisaying1338]

At my old job, our Director was vehemently against using SQL. He wanted everything done in Python. However, I remember SO many physician questions that would have been better answered using SQL vs the mashup in our department. As it stood, I always pulled back WAY more data than I needed (had to use canned reports in Business Objects) and whittle it down in Excel (not ideal). Heck, that's why I learned SQL and Python to begin with ... I got tired of opening files with 800K+ rows in Excel and running manual processes that took HOURS to complete. It, for lack of a better term, was not fun.

[@GenerallyGoodMusic]

@@whatwasisaying1338 They use Data Engineer even more loosely! It's almost a case-by-case basis at this point lol. I would call what I do glorified data analysis, or diet data engineering.

[@whatwasisaying1338]

@@GenerallyGoodMusic lol.

[@DefinitelyNotAMachineCultist]

Unless you have a very specific plan to break into a specialty (more power to you), the “safe” bet for a full-stack programmer's languages (assuming _that they have no preference already_ and want to maximize the potential pool of jobs that require them to deal with that language), seems to be something like this: 1) ECMAScript/JavaScript/TypeScript + popular frameworks (React/Next/RNative, Tailwind, etc.) - You'll never escape this on the frontend. We'll probably die before this language does. WebAssembly won't save you now. If you've done some frontend stuff, getting into a backend role with Node.js isn't that hard if your fundamentals are good enough for an interview. 2) Java + popular frameworks (Spring Boot, Lombok, , etc.) - C++, Java & Python are common in coding problem sites and interviews. Lots of solutions written in these. Java seems to have the most (dare I say best?) reference material for DSA stuff (e.g. check out _Data Structures and Algorithms in Java_ by Robert Lafore), and as this channel points out, is most likely more practical than either C++ or Python for your day job. Also, a lot of interview-related challenge sites (including, as of the time of writing, Google's Foobar challenge) offered Python & Java but not C++ last I checked. Though most of the big ones offer a ton of languages these days. JavaScript is a bit weird to use for DSA/LeetCode/Codeforces-type stuff (lack of a standard library comparable to Java or Python is one reason). Python & Java are the most common choices besides C++ from the looks of it. Might as well use the thing you'll likely use at work. As for libraries, some stuff like Apache's MyBatis don't get talked about much, but seem inescapable in some regions, while stuff like Hibernate seem to be a favorite of hiring managers in others. Also, although tech stacks & ecosystems differ a lot, most people expect an experienced Java guy to be able to easily handle C# and vice versa. JavaScript/TypeScript, Java & C# are all cancerously popular globally, both in megacorps and startups. I know they might be an eyesore/RSI trigger/headache for the Lispers and Greybeards among us, but you're not really going to find safer choices these days. Maybe toss in some PHP if you want (seriously, it _does_ still have jobs). 3) SQL + nitty-gritty knowledge of a specific database (PostgreSQL/CockroachDB, etc.) - Learn to do something useful with this. Pretty rare to see SQL hobby projects. May help you stand out. Look into Redis cache setups, etc. Maybe look into some unusual stuff like non-blocking R2DBC drivers if you're bored to stand out. NoSQL seems less likely to be requested as a specific skill, even though it's used a lot. Maybe it's safer to assume a regular/non-specialist dev can handle NoSQL compared to SQL? Plus maybe some general Linux (RHEL is free now), Bash and config knowledge for Docker. Stay away from K8s/K3s unless you're going into DevOps. Probably not going to need too much domain expertise when going this route.

[@theBurningTreeComedy]

This video is a great piece of wisdom - though I do want to share something that I experienced as an electrical engineer. Of course a high-level language like python isn't going to have a ton of great applications where things like optimization and speed matter. My job wasn't coding specific but at my company, but I was one of very few who knew how to write scripts in python efficiently to help with test result analysis (this also came with knowledge of digital signal processing, experience with different libraries from university, etc - all things specific to a background in science as the video suggests). Even so, I think learning in use it effectively can really make you a more effective (and valuable) employee. I always encourage people to learn it as an ancillary skill for the sake of career advancement. As others have said, its also fairly intuitive and not terrible to learn on the fly with other coding experience.

[@davidhawley1132]

Yes, python is very flexible because of it's huge ecosystem of modules, and no-one is messing around too much with the core. Great for prototyping, small scale apps etc. Not sure about enterprise-level software though.

[@eeemuse]

But also what's crucial in web stack development specially if you'll work on your own is having good sales and communication skills, after you reach some point of learning coding you'll have to heavily invest in making good contacts, without them nobody will ask for your skills no matter how good you are.

[@astrahcat1212]

Every language is like this. You’re just using the language to tell the computer what to do. The real work is the designing, organization and often math.

[@LoneLeagle]

1 thing I'm learning as I'm learning to code is the 1st language doesn't matter because they're all pretty much the same with slightly different syntax. I'd tell a noob to learn the language with the best beginner-friendly courses because they can learn another language within days.

[@azbaroj]

Is C will do that purpose as first language for beginners?

[@LoneLeagle]

@@azbaroj I'm no expert, but based on my research & me learning some C in my computer science course & comparing many languages, I'd say C is outdated.

[@LoneLeagle]

@@azbaroj C++ is a updated version of C with new features like OOP & most people seem to also avoid C++.

[@MessedUpGaming]

Nonsense, so many companies are automating work with python. You do not need to be an expert in AI/Data Science etc... This pushes a false narrative.

[@jrhwood_]

The delusion is thinking there is one programming language, one skill, one book, one course, one code BootCamp, and one coding competition. Like most things, a good developer needs a variety of tools in his tool belt, and the most important tool is being able to adapt and pick up new technology. Python is the most popular programming language (in the world) and it is general purpose. Due to its popularity, it is profitable, it is in AI (Pytorch, Tensorflow), and Web development (Django/Flask), also surprisingly despite its slow execution speed it is the most popular language for the backend. By no means is Python a silver bullet, and for anyone looking at a job in tech, I don't think it will be the only and final language you ever learn. But... it is easy to learn, fun to use allows for rapid prototyping, and has a massive supporting community. And just because you learn one language (i.e. Python) does not mean you cannot continue to learn others (Javascript, C++, Rust) as you see fit and as suit your specialisation and area of interest. It is my personal experience that I have never learnt a programming language and thought it was a waste, each new language provides a new perspective to see the world, and improves your problem-solving ability. Take for example Haskell, a functional PL with next to no popularity in the industry, but an avid community of hobby developers. While I may never use it in production, the functional programming paradigm, e.g. monads, function composition, first-class functions, and currying, has been revolutionary in the way I tackle problems. The lessons I learnt along the way have changed how I program entirely. The same can be said for Python, the simplicity and zen of Python inspire me to write clean code for humans, not just compilers. TLDR; Python is king; a developer is not just knowing a programming language; any learning is good; all languages have their tradeoffs but they also have their own lessons to teach.

[@rachellejanssen2655]

The issue that I have with this is that lots of python developers are "build first, worry about it later". I haven't seen an awful lot of python code that I feel comfortable with in my 7 year career so far. In typescript I at least have a baseline of code quality that I can work with, but with python developers I already get hostility towards documenting, structuring and "strict typing" code because they'd rather have it working once and then never touch it again.

[@JavaSchoolBlues]

Ultimately, it's important to move away from degrees. I know people hate to hear that, but it's true. They're far too expensive, time-consuming, and classist. Most who are able to afford degrees over the next several years will be those who don't have middle-class issues like money, family, or opportunity-cost. It's important to democratize education and learning, and shy away from degrees. Yes, degrees can help, but as someone with a couple myself they aren't what they're cracked up to be. Hell, you'd be forgiven for thinking they're good, but the actuality of the degrees amounts to needless busy work, lack of real experience in the field of study, burnout, bureaucracy, and filler... so, so much filler.

[@ZettaiKatsu2013]

Actually in Europe they are almost free

[@Sebastian1832x]

It is not that difficult to get into data science and ai without a degree. Just don’t necessarily think FAANG. It also depends in which country you live…

[@jakubkrajewski8249]

true. retards from my uni get data anlysis jobs

[@tea_otomo]

Yes you are right. People always talk about Django and Flask, but in general these jobs are the minority of python jobs out there. Most companies take other language for APIs. The last python jobs I saw are heavily focused on the Automotive industry.

[@Prinjal_Boruah]

I had a mechanical engineering degree. Learned python , Django and changed my career. Joined a company as a back-end developer. Now I work as a cloud data Engineer in another company. Having gone through this journey, I would never suggest a fresh graduate or a person without any previous experience to learn python to get their first job. It is very hard to get a python job without any experience. People don't prefer back-end developers without experience especially if don't have a CS degree. I would suggest to learn JavaScript, specifically React.js to get a job faster. Get into the industry, understand how programming works and then make the career transition into other fields.

[@smurfisevil]

Python is an awesome language to write quick useful little utilities.

[@coleshores]

Excellent Swiss Army knife language

[@anthonyglaser929]

not necessarily true.

[@myhops]

Anyone can learn English like anyone can learn Python. It is the basic building blocks of logical expression. But to write programs like Stephen king writes books is the difference. The skills and mindset of an engineer is what you're hired for, not just your proficiency in the language.

[@elenakusevska6266]

I don't know, where I am, Python backend is pretty big. Also, Python comes up in scripting, automation, devops, sysadmin, cloud... It's true that to work in Data you don't even need to be a Python pro, and learning python is hardly the most difficult skill you'll have to learn.

[@zackplauche]

I think Python is great for learning basic programming concepts, from functional to OOP. JS is far uglier in my opinion, but for me it was a bit more useful to learn async stuff and probably web devleopment overall. Also most APIs have JavaScript examples, whereas with Python, there are packages that are just wrappers for those APIs. Not always the case, but it can be quite often. However, I would also argue that on some level Django definitely makes Python worth it outside of the Data Science area. I've actually had quite a bit of clients wanting Django projects. Also, if you can learn Python, you can learn the data science packages relatively easy. You just might not know the fancy data science terminology 😂. I helped someone with Robotics understand how to implement what they were looking for and I know next to nothing about robotics. Anyways, with Python: 1. Learn basics / fundamentals (as stef says) and you can learn anything. 2. Clean code is universal to any language. 3. Django is awesome, and Data Science is also awesome but requires more knowledge than you think.

[@taariqq]

Having learned Python, and SQL of course, is it comparatively as easy to find independent work, as it is in web stack? Is there "any" independent work available in Python/Django?

[@redpillsatori3020]

I thought Django was on it's way out, like RoR. I started looking into the Fast API and Tornado libraries, as they're async, and a lot easier to learn than the Django framework.

[@taariqq]

@@redpillsatori3020 Oh really! Thanks!!

[@purdysanchez]

Python is not an OOP language.

[@Ultrajamz]

I think Python can make it harder in a beginner because it hides some concepts by making things “easier”. I think for a beginner Java is probably better as a language, however installing anaconda and just running with it feels much easier to get the learning environment going.

[@fierwall5]

This guy is talking out of his ass. While there are a lot of jobs for data analysts and AI in python there are just as many developer jobs that use Python. I worked at a large company that uses python extensively, my team used it exclusively. I have a friends at early-late stage startups that are using python for their whole backend. You might as well know nothing about what is needed to get a job as a Data Analysts or an AI dev. But you try to speak so confidently about what is needed for those career paths. From your linkedIn it looks like you've never been in industry and have only taught (which is totally fine). But don't speak like you know what industry wants. There are lots and lots of companies looking for Python developers and not Data/AI Scientist

[@adammiller9029]

Putting forth a false premise that python is a purely data science purpoused language. Its a fantastic automation language. To put forth the premise that you need some very education heavy background in order to have a job that involves writing python is just.. completely false. You need to expand the scope of where you are sourcing data about jobs pretty dramatically. Your view is soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo narrow.

[@yianpap6093]

You can order a crappy mass-produced pizza with Python? That is no good advertisement for the language!

[@fuckooo]

This is correct. I have a degree in statistics and worked as a statistician for years, I also had other analyst jobs where SQL was the main language. This was before I became a data scientist and then a data engineer. Python is pretty much the most basic aspect in these jobs compared to maths (for Data Science) and knowledge of data and databases (for Data Engineering). Before Python R was used heavily. Data science is pretty agnostic of language and there will probably be a time where Python isn't used but languages like Julia and even Rust are instead. I spent the past year or so learning front end web development and it's somewhat 'easier' to pick up and do impressive things fairly quickly compared to DS.

[@taariqq]

Thanks

[@lesfreresdelaquote1176]

I totally agree. I work in an AI lab specialized in NLP, vision and robotics. We use Python in most of our _experiments_ , however most of it is later industrialized in C++ or in Rust. We recruit people for their knowledge of AI and ML, not for their programming skills. Python for deployment is a nightmare, the level of dependencies is often on the verge of crazy. It was partially solved with dockers, but GPUS are pretty complicated to access through dockers. In my opinion, Python has become a definitive industrial liability. Java managed to solve many of these issues with Maven, but Python is way to brittle as it is today. Scientists appreciate the simplicity of the language, but the reality is that Python is still a language where introspection is very complicated, which makes debugging quite difficult. If you use Pytorch for instance, you have to understand that Python is one of the possible portals to the underlying C++ library: libtorch.

[@karatsurba4791]

@@lesfreresdelaquote1176 Anaconda & ActiveState resolve the package dependency issues, since that's their core offering with python. Could you kindly elaborate on the issues your team faced in python deployment? Also, container management softwares like kubernetes with docker are used to manage n maintain containers ? Don't you guys use something similar ? What challenges does your team face with docker ?

[@chodavarapuudaykumar9204]

Hey wayne I am from account's background. I want to become a data analyst can you tell me how I prepare for it do you think it's tuff because I am not from computer science background.

[@lesfreresdelaquote1176]

@@karatsurba4791 Yes when you deploy one application. However, I can't tell the number of time I downloaded some new models from HuggingFace that required a specific package installation that proved incompatible with my current installation. If you are focussed on one single application, there might be no issue but when you are switching between different applications all the time as we do for research purpose, then hell breaks loose. If you read my message, you'll see that I speak about docker, but docker does not work very well with GPU and the different versions of cuda around. Between the Python version, the cuda versions, the different GPU cards, the dependencies between packages, the ways you can fail in this environment are too numerous to count. It reminds me of an old joke about Java: program in one place, debug everywhere. Python has managed to make this joke even worse.

[@philmirez]

Ah, years of grinding over theory just to get paid the same as someone who slapped together a web portfolio. Gotta love the tech industry.

[@sidds09]

Python -Cloud-Scripting Python-Data engineering Python-SQL-Data analysis Python-Django-Flask-FastAPI-DRF Python-Selenium-automation

[@lucaszecat]

But that's like firing up an excel sheet. Everyone should know basic python. Then it takes day till a week to master a given library. That what he is trying to say.

[@sidds09]

@@lucaszecat try mastering pandas in a month. try mastering scripting. try solving problems with numpy after learning for a week. even try mastering django in 3 months. you'll find out.

[@ZenoLee0]

This is true for any programming language. Programming languages are tools to implement specific business concepts. It's just that some fields require much more specialization, like bioinformatics and artificial intelligence.

[@Ultrajamz]

As someone in that line, yes this is all correct - though I would say learning networking/web things is a specialty in of itself with js/php (though maybe more accessible to most than advanced statistics / calculus), even if other computer science fields do sometimes interact with that layer as well.

[@TheBruceKeller]

Funny thing about data science is you just need to know some statistics. The term data science apparently came about because Facebook had hired some PhD to do some data analysis, and the guy was offended by being given the title 'data analyst' so they changed the title to 'data scientist' and it stuck.

[@olivierchaligne7535]

I have also seen professionals in the data science field often say not only you need the data science knowledge but they will also ideally have domain expertise to the data they work on to interpret it. For example, data science on the electrical grid is not going to be the same as financial transactions although it's all values variation over time. Ideally know a field and then become a data scientist in that field, it avoids presenting the data in a way that doesn't makes sense in real life even if the numbers say so.

[@chamamemestre]

The biggest delusion about Python is people that used other lower level languages being jealous their language sucks. Period.

[@Haz2288]

Very true. On the bright side, you can leverage raw python skills to get you foot in the door for many “non-technical” jobs. Using it to automate reports gives you a huge leg up on everyone else.

[@Rei-m3g]

yes you are right . CLerks job and desk job now are putting python as a requirement , in my country at least.

[@pkrockin3923]

Depends on the company though. Some companies dont allow you to install any software in their work pcs.

[@howmathematicianscreatemat9226]

Many of my students get jobs in programming… so, please only speak for yourself 😎

[@cweymouth1]

Hmm, Data Engineering is a software engineering position which is inextricably linked to Python is the overwhelming majority of cases. Just like JavaScript or other Web focused languages, base knowledge of the language isn't sufficient. It's the _frameworks_ you know which matter. For JavaScript, doesn't matter is you know React, you are likely to be ignored for a position which requires Angular. What this video gets so wrong is that most jobs which require Python are just backend positions with focuses on specific frameworks. Doing microservices on the cloud? You're gonna use Flask or FastAPI with Azure/AWS sdks. Doing infrastructure as code? Data Architects need to know the Python sdk of Azure/Aws. Doing job orchestration? Python with AirFlow or Luigi. I can go on... For those of you who are (or have already) learning Python, the world is large and isn't restricted to pure AI, ML, or DL. Its true. There aren't as many front-end web development positions for Python as compared to JS or PHP. But the backend software engineering is full of Python oriented/centric positions precisely because Python is so great for "speed of development."

[@Andrew-ud3xl]

Is PHP/laravel a good alternate to javascript for work without a degree if you have no interest in frontend? I started learning python but then stopped for the reasons you are giving in this video.

[@adrian-4767]

Andrew PHP is definitely a great alternative to to JS, and in my opinion it's even better than JS in order to land a job!

[@denisblack9897]

if you know Swift it doesn't make you an iOS developer, you have to master the UIKit framework Swift takes 2 weeks to learn and UIKit takes like 3 years at least same with Kotlin and Android SDK, same with JavaScript and web-development, same with C++ and OpenGL language is a tool, like a pen you have to read a lot, maintain your health and psyche, know how to get yourself into the "zone", know how to edit and get some discipline to write a book pen is great, but it has little to do with writing a book love you, Stefan! but you are saying stupid shit, right there

[@ramielkady938]

I think what you are saying is not accurate. there are a lot of jobs for Python, that are not data science. backend, DevOps, scripting, even data engineering, which doesn't require college or any of the stuff DS requires. data. engineering also pays more than DS with half the sh*t 🤫

[@prism223]

Teacher: What do you want to be when you grow up, Timmy? Timmy: I want to drive a car when I grow up! Reminds me of programming. Basically everyone in a technical field could benefit from programming but their job is not just generic programming, it's specific.

[@telquel7843]

Pretty much. Learning "python" in a data context is usually more about learning the different ML libraries, data visualization extensions, etc. Two people who specialize in python could "know" a completely different side of the language based solely on their use case. Sort of like "knowing" Kung Fu doesn't mean you can fight 😆

[@azursmile]

Lots of decent paying Python Data Engineering jobs out there. I.e. prepping the data in platforms for analysis. I interview people for some of them.

[@nathasyapramudita6312]

I just learn about Python in this past 3 months and suddenly your video caught in my algorithm. And now, I'm not even sure if I should continue to learn it 😔

[@astaroth0316]

As having a degree on biomedical engineering for me switching into data related python jobs seemed quite easier for me rather than trying to figure it out web development or mobile stuff

[@Joe-ff4if]

python skills, math skills, nun-chuck skills, bow hunting skills, you know....SKILLS!!!

[@bgill7475]

Yep, you need other skills other than Python. Python is just another tool to get things done.

[@Boomk27]

My job doesn’t require me to know python. Actually I had my job before knowing anything on Python, however learning Python allowed me to get a promotion. I work in the supply chain area and I work with a lot of data, with python especially pandas (in addition of SQL, EXCEL, PBI). I could change my entire workflow and optimise a lot of data in my company. I’m clearly not a python specialist (English neither haha) but it was definitely worth it

[@thestreamer1481]

Man, this vid was straight as f** This kind of content and guide info that self taught devs need to hear. Job uncle u got a sub

[@parrotraiser6541]

Non-IT people don't understand that programming per se isn't particularly hard. Knowing what to make a program do is what is important, and that's wheret you need experience and training. Once you know three programming languages, you'll realise they're all fundamentally the same, just different tools with different strengths and weknesses. Of course, to get any entry-level job, you need at least 2 years job experience.

[@lucaszecat]

Job experience in the same field. Or simply job experience in big companies for example (but in a different sector; which is my case) ?

[@mrmotomoto]

Generally, data science practitioners have a formal training in a specific field. Think someone studying economics or physics and then using python to run experiments to test their theories with. Or chemist simulating chemical reaction with python. Data science competitions seem to be won by these individuals who have experience doing research and coding is just a means to an end. You don’t usually find computer scientists winning data science competitions because they know the tools but don’t have domain knowledge for how to use them.

[@rod6722]

I started with Python and if I could start all over again I would definitely have gone with JavaScript as my first language. It's not that much harder than Python and there are many more jobs in it. And, as you mentioned, I suppose PHP (for backend), Kotlin (for Android), or Swift (for iOS) would be a few other better choices than Python in terms of the job market. Java seems pretty ubiquitous too.

[@mr.anderson5077]

Cpp devs be like duh!!! 😂

[@obesewan6632]

as a tech recruiter, php is bad choice too because it got less job vacancy opening and you had less chance to negotiate your salary. A better choice were using NestJS, Golang or Java for backend, Nest was kinda new but the community grow larger everyday and will replace ExpressJs soon, while Java Spring Boot still had the most demand in the market you will land a job easily and negotiate salary easily

[@telquel7843]

@@obesewan6632 Admittedly much of PHP's usage is due to the popularity of Laravel/Wordpress, but it is still extremely common in medium-large sized businesses outside of the tech bubble, erm, sector 😉 I don't deny that they exist, but I have personally never encountered an enterprise non-tech company that was using Node, Nest, Express, or any of the flavour the month JS frameworks honestly. Which makes sense because they want long term stability. How many times have people predicted the death of Java now? 🍿😄 As for salary negotiation, being an inexperienced one-trick-pony coder (if you weren't then this conversation wouldn't be relevant), it doesn't seem likely you'll be able to negotiate much anyway unless you have some really desirable domain expertise on top of it. And in that case, most of your negotiating power will be because of that domain expertise. 🤷 All that said, I wouldn't expect a very good job if all you know is how to code a website in PHP but that is pretty true of any language. "Knowing" a programming language doesn't mean much.

[@obesewan6632]

@@telquel7843 idk which country you were on and what job you do, but I talk based on my experience recruiting developers for many companies (in my current jobs I got 10 different companies in my country and 5 foreign countries from Europe and USA with various candidates requirements that need to be fulfilled. Based on the past and current clients they all got the same pattern in the job market) being an inexperienced one-trick pony coder sure will give you the ability to negotiate as long as you chose the right language and framework. I mean it's a simple economic law, the higher the demand and the lower the supply, the higher the price will be. JS people had a better chance to negotiate salary rather than PHP because there were a lot of PHP people rather than JS people who can do express or nest. Knowing a programming language does mean much But back again, if PHP can beat other backend programming languages and can create a really good framework in the future, of course, the demand on the market will change Many enterprise nontech companies don't use JS Framework because it came back on which type of industry are they in, different software requirements need a different programming language and framework. If they were banking, finance, or insurance industry, they do use Spring and rarely use Laravel or CodeIgniter

[@re.liable]

I agree with you, although I also think there should be a stronger consideration in running JS code on a browser vs terminal (Node). My first attempt at coding started (and immediately failed) with JS, mainly due to the fact that I had trouble running my code. I got acquainted fast with ES6 modules as it's touted to be the "best" way but couldn't figure out that I had to run a server for that to work (I don't think I'm supposed to learn about all that when I'm just starting). Plus, seeing my code run, if it ever ran, on a browser doesn't feel as good as on a terminal like "real" programmers do. There's a lot of setup for meager returns, if at all. It felt cheap and fake. I'm well omw to a JS-based webdev career now, loving JS so much, though the languages that laid the foundations for me were C++ and Python. I just don't want beginners to feel as stupid as I did when I started, because it didn't have to be.

[@lancemarchetti8673]

Probably more permanent jobs available in C#. Also depends on which country you live in I guess. Larger corporations/enterprises mostly. Python jobs...probably smaller companies, freelancing etc.

[@ryezheld]

In my case, it's quite the opposite. I'm confident with my math skills, but I think coding-wise, I'm just mediocre and can't compete with the people who has been coding since middle school or something (I only started to actually learn how to code back in 6th semester of college). But truly, I just prefer works in data fields more. I don't really code because I like to develop stuffs, I just code because it helps me do my math faster. Interesting video tho'. I will keep what you said in mind if I ever want to switch back to developer again (since I'm not really sure what the future holds for me).

[@mimimoo4493]

ok boomer

[@eligoldman9200]

I’m a chemical engineer and I’m learning python for my job.

[@aphradotlink]

Hey Stef, totally agree that the web stack is an excellent entry point into a tech career. One thing folks should keep on their radar regarding Python specializations is cybersecurity - not only for automations and microservices, but (drumroll) data science! Companies that are ahead of the curve are becoming hip to the fact that the cybersecurity industry faces some of the exact same hurdles the scientific and data processing communities have faced for years.

[@michaelyost9820]

I don’t think this is totally accurate. Seen a lot of python in dev ops and automation work loads. Also really popular when building apis or working with apis.

[@taariqq]

Is there "independent" work available in Python? Just a question.

[@wld-ph]

Biggest Shock... Python for QUANTUM Computing...

[@aghilannathan8169]

Most jobs are Web Dev, so JS for Front End and back end can be almost anything but JS is also popular there. JavaScript, Java and maybe Django are common for backend.

[@daviddelaney363]

Sure Python by itself probably is not enough. But implying that learning php or JavaScript will land you a job is also misleading. You would be competing with hundreds of others for the same position. This means maybe you will make $25/hr. You will also be capped at billing 40 hrs/wk and expected to put in minimum 15 hrs of overtime each week. Also, at least in Python you can write “Hello World” in 1 short line. No class code required. OO is a cult anyway.

[@martin_quarto]

How do you study the job-getting market? I would love to hear people's thoughts.

[@tomekg6629]

The shortest dev joke? "Python programming language" :P. Python is popular among people who know very little about programming. They are hired because of their math or physics knowledge not programming skills.

[@paulbrown5839]

Maybe Python is the way forward just because of what you just said. You need a combination of hard skills to back it up. This keeps the competition at bay. However, i suspect you need very high level of math to be really marketable, ie. PhD.

[@ianchristani1]

My delusion is the most of the positions out there are for AI, or Data Science, not for full stack dev, or backend,... :(

[@Purplehairedpimp]

Not so bad here in academia. I have a philosophy degree, no data science background. Just start elementary level and learn. Sure, at first you should be at least OK at full stack.

[@JesseLH88]

Ive used python at FB and Amazon. Probably the most commonly used panguage for AWS lambda functions.

[@jamesoliphant6643]

Python is also pretty big in web development and in IT as a server scripting language. Its hot stuff in devops!

[@jazzgirl2358]

I use python for backend development, and I don't have a degree but I agree that DS is mostly about skills other than python but other than that your advice is kinda wrong

[@amcmillion3]

If you don't have at least a Master's in CS, Stats, Math, Physics, or some engineering discipline you are not going to become a Data Scientist without a ton of luck. ML and AI are simply out of the question if you don't have one of these degrees.

[@sadephillips9645]

Do you have proof that this is absolutely the case? There are so many stories on KZbin where people have gotten into Data Science and Machine Learning without a CS degree.

[@Ps-we3pp]

@@sadephillips9645 i know of 2 people who took le wagons bootcamp to become a software engineer. its very pricey but possible

[@iorekby]

@@sadephillips9645 Yes but they likely have a degree in Math, Engineering, Physics, stats, Chemistry, Economics or some other scientific or engineering discipline that's highly mathematical in nature. It's why they are dubious. "I 'm Data Scientist at Facebook and I don't even have a CS degree"! You check their Linkedin and they have a degree, masters and PhD in Math from Stanford.... they're disingenuous.

[@gdwe1831]

I work alongside data scientists doing Dev/Ops and backend development for one of the biggest companies in the world. I have 5 years development experience now...dropped out of school fell into systems, networking, security for 5 years and then taught myself to code with a group. My textbook maths is pretty mediocre verging on bad but I can understand concepts quickly and fix problems. It's possible for sure and you need more than just language/programming knowledge just like any Dev jobs it's about as combo of soft and hard skills. I see a lot of very smart data scientists who can't do basic networking and don't know the first thing about clean code.

[@telquel7843]

People have the same misconception about programming. Learning a language doesn't really mean much in itself. You need to have an understanding of data structures and algorithmic thinking to be useful. These patterns can be implemented in a wide variety of languages. You can always look up the syntax for expressing them. Sure, familiarity with a libraries/methods/etc of a language will increase your productivity, but it's what you are doing with them that people will pay you for. Similarly, part of the reason the internet is awash with low quality machine learning projects and analysis is that people "know python" but lack the statistical education to do meaningful (statistically significant) work with it. I'm not saying you have to use words like centroids, kurtosis, etc but understanding fundamental things like probability, correlation, distribution, and the central limit theorem are pretty integral to doing meaningful analysis. The good news is that it's never been easier to learn about statistics (or just about anything) so you have no excuse for ignorance! 😉

[@mastercontrol5000]

This is not a python problem. Learning to code on its own is not and never has been a complete toolset for any career. Knowing how arcane symbols are interpreted by a compiler does not make you useful. Your code needs to actually do something, and for that you need to understand something besides code itself

[@kulsmetchen2474]

I like your videos but can you not include your saliva swallowing sounds, it really throws me off focus. Thank you

[@andrewostman3135]

This is correct. Python is a tool and a means to an end not an end in itself. I use python for some of my hdl and signal processing work, but I am also an electrical engineer who specializes in signal processing and digital design

[@rodolfoblasser3329]

I would add that, even though Python is fairly easy to start with, we should all strive for mastering our craft and look for better ways (software engineering). Also, having an area of domain (aka expert criteria) is important, since every industry has it's own perspective, not only from a data analytics view, but overall mindset.

[@telquel7843]

Absolutely, the truth is that programming talent alone will only take you so far. You need to understand the business processes you are modelling if you want to actually build stuff that is useful and effective. Understand the problem. Sounds simple and yet so often... Developing domain expertise can also be a great competitive moat. There is a legion of qualified developers out there but how many of them have industry experience with the unique challenges associated with manufacturing for the marine environment for instance? The pool shrinks rapidly and it makes networking a heck of a lot easier too.

[@rodolfoblasser3329]

@@telquel7843 I agree, programming is a mean to solve problems. However, if you specialize in solving a specific kind of problem, which solution is highly valuable by the market, then you become a valuable asset.

[@stacyl9777]

python, sql, and cloud SAA & Azure Data Eng cert will open doors

[@sierraalpha3294]

Or network automation. Python is huge in that field.

[@j.hanleysmith8333]

No reason to learn any framework except flutter if you want to develop in iOS Android and web

[@NateJGardner]

Data prep work is often done in Python and doesn't require a degree. Data analysts and data engineers are often non-degreed, _but_ of course need data analytics skills, or at least a deep curiosity and interest in analytics.

[@ogalex9069]

You kinda look like Negan 😁

[@LucasSilva-oq9er]

Thank you! This was what I needed to know. I was about to invest a huge amount of time learning it.

[@cweymouth1]

Mmmmmm. What this video isn't well articulated is how much Python is used on the backend for scripting and general purpose stuff. If you are getting into doing services, backend piping, and working with Azure or AWS, then Python is good to have.

[@lucaszecat]

@@cweymouth1 what job description would that be? I guess, pure data engineering ? (Using spark etc..)

[@robertmazurowski5974]

Celery is the best for Python Jobs. You don't have to pay your workers.

[@TheOrionMusicNetwork]

Data engineering / Software Engineer (Data) is pretty big now (and is python heavy), and it doesn't require specialisation in the same sense that data science does (i.e. there is a lot more crossover with a traditional software engineering role - many involve some amount of devops / cloud knowledge too, but that is becoming more standard these days I would think)

[@suspence25]

I needed to hear this, im looking for a Python Job, but they really dont exist in the way that I would think they do. I guess its back to trying to learn JS... ughh.

[@rhambo5554]

You can get into data engineering with Python without the need for a mathematics degree. You will need supplementary skills like SQL too.

[@telquel7843]

It is amusing to me that SQL would be considered a supplementary skill for a data engineer 🙃

[@rhambo5554]

@@telquel7843 Name one thing SQL can do that Python can't...

[@telquel7843]

@@rhambo5554 I can see that you are extremely experienced in data engineering 🙄 I doubt you know what BCP is but putting a python wrapper around it doesn't suddenly make it python tool. SQL and Python are not adversaries. They serve completely different functions.

[@rhambo5554]

@@telquel7843 I'm very experienced. Are you telling me you don't think Python can bulk copy from a SQL server db to disk? You are not a complete data engineer if you just use SQL, saying whether or not Python can do some arbitrary proprietary command is missing the point of ingesting, transforming and presenting data in the wider sense. You can't call a REST api with SQL.

[@telquel7843]

@@rhambo5554 I wrote out a better thought-out response and then accidentally clicked out and it got erased so here is a summary: Python wrappers on BCP are much slower than native BCP and completely do not work at scale. None of that matters though because Python is not intended to be used for nor is it good at dealing with transactions in an RDBMS. Because you don't know that, I am positive that you are not a data engineer. I don't just use SQL. In an average day I use a combination Java, PHP, C#, R, Python, JavaScript, SQL, VBScript, and SOQL/APEX (thanks to Salesforce). If I am calling a REST API, it's probably one I developed for my company and I am probably doing so in JavaScript (though CORS can be quite annoying). But eventually, I will probably want to insert that data somewhere which will require SQL (I mostly deal with RDBMS). Anyway, learning about luigi or apache airflow without knowing RDBMS and SQL really well is practically a meme in the data community at this point. Just remember kids, getting a job is only half the battle. At some point you will allegedly be asked to actually DO the job.🙃 But maybe I am just old-fashioned and if you throw around enough new-wave tech stack buzzwords people will pay you to be clueless. It honestly could be true because the people hiring you probably have no idea what any of this means. 🤷

[@Meleeman011]

I wanna do data science I just don't want to use python so I'm looking into learning data science first, and doing it without a neural net

[@ET-oq1vj]

very well made video thanks for making your points clear and easy to understand

[@krisbiturku4187]

can confirm this, as someone with geoinformatics masters degree they said that they needed me to learn python to start but if i didnt know it was ok

[@Longlius]

I would say a big draw for making development remote for big organizations is that it allows them to reserve more office space for workers who actually need to be on-site and enable them to scale up the number of people working those positions. It's a massively underappreciated aspect of transitioning developers to remote work.

[@branko917]

It is better to be bricklayer then programmer. Looking all day in keyboard and monitor doesn't make sense at all.

[@iorekby]

It's 100% not good for peoples eyes or sleep pattern. Saying that as someone creeping up on 20 years in tech as an engineer.

[@telquel7843]

Yeah, but anyone whose ever spent any time laying bricks will tell you that it's not exactly a walk in the park either. They call it work for a reason. We all bear Adam's curse 😉

[@branko917]

@@telquel7843 It would be much better without IT. In the last 50 years with development of IT our society and culture rapidly declined. Nobody read books anymore and only that matters today is instant gratification. We have a ton of info on internet but 90% of that is garbage and 5-10% is useful, regarding to social networks today, a sort of addiction, a lot of fake profiles and disinformation. IT should only be used for science purposes and data processing in big companies instead of that it is widespread like cancer and will ruin our entire society.

[@branko917]

Nonsense.

[@telquel7843]

@@branko917 ask a bricklayer over 50 how his body feels after a day of work. Prove me wrong. 😏

[@ExistentialSadness]

Python backend is the way.

[@gsus7125original]

The Python logo looks like some sort of Swastika.

[@kawaiihikari0]

Just get a backend web development job if you don’t have a degree. Who tf wants to be a data scientist 😂 jk

[@itshunter3510]

can u guide me?

[@heitormbonfim]

Python is wonderful for automations

[@mcjon77]

Very true. I am a data scientist and I use python everyday; However, I only know of a few non data science/ML/AI jobs. Most of those jobs are for Django web development. Even then you still need JavaScript. For data scientist, a Masters degree is becoming the defacto standard, although we have hired junior data scientists with bachelors degrees in Data Science, Statistics, and Computer Science.

[@Rei-m3g]

yes even with learning php i have to learn another language mainly javascript . But when I want to do linux than I have to learn bash and mainly python .

[@Dafakizdat]

I find your voice very relaxing

[@torietron]

uncle steff is a real website now? OMG

[@coquibunny8797]

Thx uncle stef. 👍💖🤘🖖