WHAT IS WILL? - Dragon’s Dogma 2 Lore

Greetings, gaming historians! As most of us know, will is a major theme in the world of Dragon’s Dogma, separating men from heroes and the world from chaos. However, what truly is this power, where does it come from, and how does it shape the world? Stay tuned!
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[@leothi2]

I'm happy i found this video, i was on the end of my first ng+ and the hypothesis of Rothais having "hijacked" the cycle of the Seneschal was starting to make a lot of sense to me in the last few days. I was really wondering why the Pathfinder would help you get the Godsbane when you don't need it to defeat the dragon, why give you the key to breaking the cycle? Well, simply so you can ultimately kill Rothais. But i think Rothais descending from the sky to rule the land, as the mad arisen in Harve mentioned, somehow broke the cycle, and that's why the Pathfinder had to intervene. Notably, the dragon seems to no longer be able to offer you a proper bargain, all it has to offer is leaving you alone, far from the wish able to reshape the order of the world like in the case of the Dark Arisen. Also, i was wondering what the world being an illusion meant, when it seems like such an important part of the overarching story. The explanation you gave of the world only being given a "consciousness" and a proper existence through the arisen's actions makes a lot of sense, and it reminded me of the Dragon's bargain again. Either sacrifice your beloved for a wish, or defy the Dragon to save their life. In a way, either prove this world matters, exists to you, by risking your life for it, or accept its inexistence, accept that this person is not real and doesn't matter, and shape this unreality with a wish, while being doomed to experience the knowledge that you're stuck in a story without an end. It also reflects the relationship we have as a player with the world we explore and interact with, and i think that's what made the series so impactful for me in retrospect. However, i don't think it's right to think the Pathfinder is the master of the Brine, and chooses to unleash it as a "revenge". I think it's true that the suicide of the Arisen directly unleashed oblivion. For me, the oblivion is not a will to destroy, but the absence of a will to subsist. While there is a will to oppose the decay of the world, the dogma remains, giving shape to the oblivion with one side being the Dragon, manifesting through its opposition the will of the world to exist, and the other being the Brine, ensuring no one could escape the battle. If the will of the world, incarnated in the Arisen, surrenders and refuses to follow the dogma, then the void does the same. I think the Pathfinder simply got discouraged, as he was supposed to put a world back on the cycle able to keep it in place, already made fragile by a previous Seneschal, and saw another Arisen deciding to surrender to escape the dogma despite his warning. At this point he just decided to let it be and let them witness what he was trying to help them prevent. When he talks to the arisen in the unmoored world after you destroy all the beacons, what he expresses seems to me like proper respect, but he just cannot see this story ending in a good way. After the death of the crimson dragon, he expresses real regret to not be able to see what it will turn into now that it is somehow freed from the dogma. That is how i interpret it at least. There are still some questions left unanswered about the lore of the game, one of the weirdest for me being about the Oracle and the previous arisens we meet. The Oracle is supposed to assist with the coronation of each arisen after their victory. Why is she able to be here? Shouldn't she be dead if her dragon was killed by an arisen? If yes, where did her dragon go? Why was it replaced? This part of the lore seems to hide a lot of stuff still.

[@lordoflore9761]

1 & 2 - Glad it helped! 3 - As for the Brine preceding and/or being separate from the Pathfinder, I definitely considered the possibility and knew many would believe that as well (until a developer or new lore says otherwise, either one of us could be correct). However, I finally concluded that the Pathfinder controlled the Brine for one major reason: defeating the Pathfinder STOPPED the Brine and the Unmoored World. If the Brine was simply the absence of will, then the world should have stayed on its path of destruction when both the Pathfinder and the Arisen perished (it’s implied the Arisen does not survive the final blow). If the citizens themselves resisted the Brine by their own will in the new world, they should have been able to do the same in the Unmoored World if all the Pathfinder did was take a hands-off approach. Another hint is when the Pawn revives Talos; not only is the Dragonsplague heavily implied to be a result of the Brine/world destruction, but the Pawn seems to use the power of the Brine to control Talos… yet proceeds to fight AGAINST another Brine powered serpent trying to destroy the world. If the Brine is just the absence of will, why would the Brine fight the Brine unless the Pawn was directly controlling it? Which to me points back to the Pathfinder’s control of the Brine. Even if the Brine is separate from the Pathfinder rather than just destructive will, it’s still evident to me that the Pathfinder was purposefully controlling the Brine rather than just “letting it go.” But hey, only time will tell. 4 - Wow, you know more than me on the Oracle stuff (I felt I might have rushed the later half of the game). I’ll have to get back to you on that, and if you have any links or info that would help me learn more about the Oracle, I would greatly appreciate it :)

[@leothi2]

​​@@lordoflore9761yeaah, it makes sense i guess. My main concern was with the Pathfinder's motivations, who seems to avoid this outcome until the very end. But if it's used to reset the world, it could make sense. He'd be granting a painless death to the world instead of letting it decay. The name "unmoored world" and the way it was translated in my language, "world left behind" also motivated my hypothesis i think. But yeah, it remains an interesting subject to discuss and i'm curious about what we'll learn in the future. About the oracle, i don't remember which characters tell you that but it's mentioned a few times that she was at the service of the royalty of Vernworth, and was only recently forced into exile, as she easily saw Disa's plot to put a fake arisen on the throne. However i also spotted a note in Ser Gregor's house, upstairs, formulating concerns about this exile. Basically, it said that the oracle was needed to officialize the coronation of the sovran, and expressed great concern that Disa would disregard that. And when i say "great concern", it sounded like it was a blasphemy, so i suppose she participated to several coronations before. The last sovran is named in the intro, so it was at least recent enough to remember his name. That's all the elements i have right now. One way to solve that is that they all accepted the bargain and let the dragon live, but it wouldn't explain why the previous arisens are still alive after the death of the dragon in the unmoored world. And Lamond mentions his dragon "leaving a long time ago" so there is definitely something weird going on here. The theory that some people already formulated during DD:DA that there are several dragons and arisens in other unreachable continents could be a solution to explore, maybe.

[@gaminglazarus4343]

@@lordoflore9761 hi good video about dragon dogma 1+2 on youtube . i hope we get in future kingdoms of amalur 2 game . hi do you play dragon dogma- dark arisen and dragon dogma 2 on ps4, xbox one, pc, ps5 or xbox series x? do you have xbox account and can i add you on my friend list. i have dragon dogma- dark arisen (ps4, xbox series x) and in juni 2024 i buy dragon dogma 2 (xbox series x)

[@foriegnbuffalo109]

I knew something was wrong with the pathfinder when I bought Rook as soon as I could and he gave me dragon's plague.

[@florin-alexandrustanciu5643]

For real??

[@SADYT-be5qe]

Awesome video! Love the lore of this Dragon's dogma, it's so deep and profound

[@lordoflore9761]

The lore is definitely awesome, with themes just as deep as its content. Thanks for watching!

[@captaintweet4221]

Even though devs said DD1 and DD2 are different worlds, i can't shake the feeling that the state of the cycle in DD2 is a result of Seneschal's suicide. We know that Rothais is DD2 current Seneschal, but he acts like he doesn't know what he has to do with that role, as if there was no one to guide him and tell the truth. He just inherited the empty throne. And thats why Pathfinder sent many Arisen after him: to make a new Seneschal and a new Red Dragon. But Rothais killed them all and shattered their souls. I think bc of that the Red Dragon we currently have is the same one that was killed by Rothais but is constantly ressurected by Pathfinder, hence why he asks us to break the cycle.

[@lordoflore9761]

Agreed! Because of the hints like the Seafloor Shrine/Gran Soren and other clues, perhaps by different world they just meant setting and history rather than one of the alternate Rift dimensions. And the stuff on the red dragon is interesting too, especially with the throne not meaning what it used to. However, I’m not so sure on the dragon being the one Rothais slew; the main connection between a dragon and Arisen is the heart, but Rothais has already reclaimed his heart AND become a spiritual form not needing one. But then again, we gotta remember that dragons are former Arisens. Because Rothais tends to shatter the souls of past Arisen (likely preventing their “dragon-ization”), the dragon could very well be much older than we think, at least preceding Rothais’ defiant actions. And the dragon certainly has grown tired of the cycle, as evidenced by the Talos trying to stop him AND the dragon nudging the Arisen to use the Godsbane blade (something we normally wouldn’t even have had yet). There might very well be a connection of some kind, something I might have to explore in a future video!

[@brentpeterson918]

They pulling a gojo with the red and blue 😂

[@JTManual]

and so begins. the dark arisen. awww its so beautiful. we are all

[@Gammameem]

Funfact. The unmoored World is called "Gottlose Welt" in german, which means godless world. This could be a hint, since the brine and rothais are gone. They could have been, in fact, gods. We also can't find the Sphinx anymore. Also, I always wondered about the everfall in the first game. It opens after the dragon was slain. But how comes this never happened to other arisen? Or was just time reverted after? But that doesn't make sense either since gran soren can still be found in dd2. What exactly happened there?

[@lordoflore9761]

Well, Rothais’ spirit still exists in the Umoored World, and UW’s whole shtick is the presence of the Brine slowly returning the world to ruin so it can be “reset.” As for the Everfall, no dragon had been slain in hundreds of years, with the oldest known Arisen connected to Grigori literally fading to dust on the dragon’s death. In addition, it’s heavily hinted that Gran Soren is built on the ruins of another ancient city. So it’s likely the Everfall opened when the last successful Arisen arose to challenge the Seneschal, but it’s been so long most mortals have forgotten. As for the Everfall in DD2, I’m pretty sure Rothais’ throne room is the top of the Everfall, so it just extends beneath the Seafloor Shrine. It seems the Talos resides underneath, likely drawing power from the Everfall (or, according to a theory I’ll explore later, the collected will of slain Arisen!). The old fisherman explains the Talos’ purpose, but I’ll do a video later that’ll seek to cover more of its nature

[@demonintellect9834]

The only person to have beaten their dragon in DD1 was the seneschal and there is some "great calamity" that is referenced as having taken place centuries earlier.

[@jas6853]

The brine isn’t gone, if you go somewhere you’re not supposed to it swallows you up, rothias is still there in the beginning for awhile

[@philippg6459]

My theorie is, that DD 1 true ending is connected to DD 2. We rid the World of the Seneshal and through it the Cycle of Dragons and Arisen. The Watcher, who wasnt really pleased about it, that someone broke the cycle, took over, and recreated the Cycle again. With the Adjustment, that we can only become Sovereign. This is the End, as the Watcher wills it. That would explain the Lack of an Everfall, there is no more Reason to be tested. After we defeat our Dragon truly with the Godsbane, the Watcher has to step in again. Wanting to recrate everyting, he first plans to destroy the World with his Beames / Dragons. After that he sent the Urdragon, which we can only defeat thanks to our Pawn, which he didnt expect (i believe he never really understood the Pawns and their own wishes (see Selene) and just let the old System of the Seneschal endure). After that, the Watcher is defeated and the Cycle seems to be ended again.

[@demonintellect9834]

@@philippg6459 Kinda. The problem is that it DD2 kinda showed that the Seneshal was like god to their world. The Greater Will is basically God to ALL universes so it is far above the Seneshal and that is also why the Watcher is more powerful than a Seneshal since it is a direct servant of the Greater Will.

[@yharnamiyhill787]

My question is, why couldn't the Seneshal intervene himself against this pathfinder.

[@lordoflore9761]

It seems to me that when the Pathfinder more or less “reset” the world, he decreased the power of the Seneschal to the current Sovran we see in game. Note that despite slaying countless Arisen and not being bound to the Pathfinder’s will, Rothais still produces the Dulled Godsbane Blade rather than the full thing like the Seneschal in the first game

[@yharnamiyhill787]

@lordoflore9761 Tyvm. I did not think about the Dulled Godsbane! I guess the plot is more like that of Bloodbourne and Elden Ring, where Outer Wills fights for dominion of the world. I noticed that the strongest arrow in the game is named different: Unmaker's Arrow vs. Maker's Finger.

[@rocketdurham4926]

Brother let that accent rip, glorious

[@lordoflore9761]

Reckon I will :)

[@rocketdurham4926]

@@lordoflore9761 hell yeah baby that’s wassup

[@specialnewb9821]

The might of wheel!

[@yharnamiyhill787]

It's a shame we dont see the Sphinx in the Unmoored World. She is shown to be a true God. After you slay her, she vanishes in radiant glow, congratulating you and said they will meet again. She is above life and death. It'd be nice to hear her perspective of the world.

[@wayatvideos2142]

Honestly, the only true gods in dogma are the arisen and the watcher. As they are the only ones with patrons of “will”. The player is the arisen’s patron, and the game’s director Hideaki is the patron of the watcher. It’s a meta interpretation but it makes the most sense.

[@demonintellect9834]

She never says you will meet again. She says "I almost hope you and I meet again"

[@mr.shadowsun5702]

Fun fact she is the only one that say that theres no cycle but instead is a flux with if u think about give a lot of implications to the lore

[@jas6853]

She’s not a god whatsoever just another created being

[@onionknight384]

Wheel ❤❤

[@lordoflore9761]

If I see one more comment about my accent I am going to scream… Southernly

[@luckyowl6432]

Great video! Please do more Kingdoms of Amalur lore content 😁

[@lordoflore9761]

I definitely have more Amalur content to come, but with DD2’s recent release and the fresh content surrounding it, the next few weeks will focus on DD2 lore. But have no fear, the Amalur spotlight will be back before you know it :)

[@specialnewb9821]

I think Pathfinder is seneschal. Heres my theory. Loooooong. Pathy was the first to reach the seat after DD1 Arisen left it vacant. But with no dragon to test him and no seneschal to beat, he was unworthy. He lacked the creative will to keep the world going. In desperation he hooked himself onto the Brine manifestation of destruction. So we have a dark seneschal with a lack of enough will but lots of corrupted power. To gain the will to perpetuate the world, Pathy cobbled together the weird cycle we see in DD2. It is corrupted. For example the dragon doesn't wreak havoc like in 1 until you beat him. Nor do you get a wish if you sacrifice the beloved. Rothais is the first Arisen to go through the corrupted cycle. My guess is he rejected the seneschal post because Pathy would still be in charge. The Japanese uses the same word Kaiou (like Kaios in Dragonball) for the seneschal both here and DD1. So when he talks about ruling the world he means as seneschal but then tired of someone looking over his shoulder. All the responsibility of a will battery none of the choive. Anyway he leaves and founds Vermund. Pathy decides that he will just stay as god and changes the cycle he set up so Arisens become an earthly king to keep anyone from fighting him to purify the seneschal. I believe the cycle obtains enough will to survive but not enough to thrive creating the false world. And this is fine with a Pathy high on Brine. Remember even the True Daimon could not destroy the cycle just created a little place where it didn't apply.

[@lordoflore9761]

An interesting theory and story! Something’s definitely happened between DD1 and 2, and that’s a take I hadn’t considered before. However, I do think there are two things to consider: 1-The dragon did wreak havoc, destroying Melve and causing earthquakes 2-If Rothais isn’t Seneschal, then there’s definitely been some kind of rearranging of power; otherwise Rothais shouldn’t have been able to make a form of Godsbane Blade. I’ll do a deep dive into who the Pathfinder is soon, and I’ll definitely consider your ideas. Thanks for sharing :)

[@specialnewb9821]

Hi, thanks for replying with some good questions. I've replayed a bit in NG+ now and I'll see if I can answer The dragon attacked Melve to choose an Arisen. Bare minimum he has to do. I'm not sure what you mean by earth quakes. On the way to Vernwerth the captain Gregor attributes a rockslide to the dragon, but I interpreted that to be part of collateral damage from Melve attack. If there are other references, I missed them so let me know. That sounds interesting! I would like to know more about what the Japanese lines say about Rothais. What if Rothais sat in the chair, but Pathy kept the power of creation and destruction (Seneschal supposed to have this in DD1) under his control? This means all Rothais could do is serve as a will-battery. It caused him to leave since he doesn't know that is not how it should work. Founds Vermund. Goes nuts. Sealed etc. Since he was never a seneschal with full access to the power like a demi-seneschal, he can only create a dull godsbane. Not enough to slay anyone. Also as soon as I got the powered up godsbane I instantly suicided to see if anything happened! Nothing! Well in the end, this all just cooking so i'll look forward to any ideas you might have and see if they spark any new thoughts on my end

[@demonintellect9834]

The devs have said 1 and 2 are in different universes. You cant really argue against that. It takes place in a parallel one where it seems like it is an alternate timeline. The seneschal didnt necessarily get a nerf to be weaker its more than likely that we are just learning the pecking order. In DD1 there was no concept of multiple parallel worlds so it was believed the seneschal was basically god. Now we know that there may be thousands of seneschals all watching over their own worlds and the great will is the being or thing that is above all of that.

[@lordoflore9761]

DD1 actually did have parallel worlds, as evidenced by both Pawns and the Ur-Dragon. As for 1 and 2 in parallel universes, I definitely noted that and mentioned it in my video. Still, the Seafloor Shrine ruins reference the DD1 world (or at least a similar one/equivalent), so it’s important to still draw connections and theories in some ways

[@brandonmicheletti7061]

Hi, I'm a huge fan of DD can some one explain what is the lore of DD online. I want to know more about the other worlds

[@lordoflore9761]

You and me both, buddy. Unfortunately, I haven’t been able to find much on the game, but I’ll provide what little I have here: DD Online Intro (with subtitles): kzbin.info/www/bejne/ZnaaaWxnYs9ma5Isi=t9y19TqcIQaeMkOX DD Online Wikipedia Page: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon%27s_Dogma_Online

[@tobiasmuller3089]

Cool 😎 🆒️ Video

[@AnotherGamingDude]

So will in dragon's dogma is like the force in star wars?

[@lordoflore9761]

In a way, I suppose, but I think it would be more comparable to the “Matrix waking up” kind of thing, as I don’t think an Arisen halfway through their journey could just start changing reality around them. It’s more about seeing the truth and having the willpower to resist fate.

[@1ofthelastrockers]

Why are you saying wheel? Its just will

[@lordoflore9761]

Ha! That’s just how people pronounce it in the South

[@kadajshin]

Do you think they will add a dlc? Like dark arisen? Or maybe a dlc with a Mystic Knight adventure! I really hope cause dd2 was a huge let down for me .. sad because i really love dragon's dogma

[@lordoflore9761]

I believe that if the company was satisfied with DD2’s performance, they will add a DLC. Some players have noted doors buried by rubble that have either an elven or Godsbane blade-related design. Perhaps any DLC’s will explore these doors or even an entirely new map. Only time will tell!

[@vahngaming7107]

Im confused coz i though rothas was the one who didnt want to relinquish his seat, and the pathfinder had to intervene. It is the pathfinders job to guide the arisen to whatever will the arisen wants. this is confusing haha

[@lordoflore9761]

I don’t think it’s so much as he refused to relinquish his seat as he refused to play the Pathfinder’s game. The old fisherman hints that he “descended from his kingdom in the sky” to establish his own kingdom below. He forsook the “true world” for the physical, forsaking his duty as Seneschal/Sovran. The Pathfinder’s purpose is not so much to guide the Arisen on what they want to do as much as what they’re supposed to do according to the Dragon’s Dogma cycle

[@vahngaming7107]

@@lordoflore9761 oh i worded it wrong yeah he refused to play the cycle, and also the pathfinder is neither good nor evil, hes just playing his own part in the cycle. I played DDDA like alot, what I dont get is, whats good or bad about the cycle? I get that everyone is trapped in it even including the senechal and the pathfinder but so what lol. i didnt read alot outside the game and i replayed DDDA multiple times i could not even count and did all endings.

[@lordoflore9761]

You’ve got a point. The world itself doesn’t seem to be that bad when the dragon’s not there, but when it is the world is absolutely flooded with monsters and destruction. The main reason though is not morality, but breaking destiny by the power of your own will

[@blumiu2426]

The thing I think fails on the storytelling end is how becoming overseer of the world is more a punishment than anything. Suicide is factored into it in some manner given it is an option known to the Seneschal. Such a role is not gained by someone capable of the duty and character to caretake the world? I thought that was the entire point. Why is the Seneschal confined to a void and not some domain of whatever scale to inhabit and be comfortable in during the eternal task? It would only make sense instead of inspiring them to commit suicide and viewing all they did as a burden by the end. This is where the storytelling collapses and world-building makes no sense. Capcom has never been the pillar of narrative, yet how they crafted something unsatisfying beyond the trope of 'freedom from divine or god-like authority". What did the pawn have example of that was a positive? It gained independence at the cost of their Arisen growing bored of life and responsibility. The moment is somewhat impactful, but then if you stop to think about it, it's actually stupid.

[@lordoflore9761]

Yeah, I never liked the “suicide is freedom” thing, but that goes pretty well with Eastern themes. Eastern philosophies are often very gnostic in design; the objective world is an illusion and/or secondary to the individual’s own resolve and enlightenment (the Japanese translation for Arisen is same as Enlightened one). So I guess they’re trying to say being one with the universe is better than being bound to a divine fate. However, this is kind of dumb in DD1 when it’s clear that the Seneschal is responsible for overseeing and giving life to the world. Like what, you’re going to selfishly leave the whole world to die just because you got bored? SOME HERO! I think DD2 did better in making the Pathfinder a malignant deity who dooms the world to the dragon’s destruction. This way, our sacrifice is to free the world from his control, rather than just an “I don’t wanna” mentality.

[@RadRes1stant]

I always thought, for some reason, that the seneschal sends the dragon to seek their own replacement because their own will, that sustains the world, is finite. And as it begins to wane, so too does the world start to slowly unravel / die or something. not sure where i got that idea from, but i guess it doesnt make sense because that would mean the player is dooming the world by killing themselves

[@lordoflore9761]

An interesting theory! The DD1 Seneschal is definitely pleading for an end, so maybe going too long could risk leaving the world unwatched. Fortunately or unfortunately, the Pathfinder seemed to be keeping an eye on it above the Seneschal, stepping in when the player broke it. As for how the world continues on now, I think that’s up to the will of its denizens. Sounds good on paper, but if DD keeps making money, you know they’ll make a DD3, so chances are somebody is gonna do what Phaseus failed to do and learn to harness the creative and destructive power of Will for themselves.

[@Gammameem]

Maybe it does. Even savan finds the cycle cruel and he desperately wanted to die. He could always have ended himself but for some reason, he did not. Maybe the world needs a seneshal. Maybe there were other seneshal who just took the easy way out. But then their world died so no one would know. ​@@RadRes1stant

[@blumiu2426]

@@RadRes1stant It never implies this nor is it said by the Seneschal. Remember killing one self with the blade seemed to be a McGuffin for that instance and had never been done before, so their role was infinite. They needed to maintain the cycle, so it wouldn't make much sense for that to wane if chosen because found the sole chosen for the role. Maybe if they showed the Seneschal weakened or aged I'd consider that, but if one can't manage a few centuries, a spec in the grand scheme, the writing is fully thought through. Outside the lore, that would have to be the case as the story was not the focal point of the game. It was dressing for the open-world and combat. This has been Capcom's M.O. But yes, the Seneschal offing himself would seem to me to doom the world, not free it if the cycle is the only thing keeping things going. It seems to be the universal order, not just a cog, but if just a cog, that trivializes everything you actually do. None of what the past Arisen did was anything but going through motions none considered could be broken. My question is then is how did the Seneschal you meet find out that method? But going back to no "god" overseeing the world, that implies chaos or anarchy and something worse may fill the void left by the supposed cycle. The trial was to temper someone found ideal to take on the role, I'm not sure how that's a negative unless the writer views self-fulfillment as necessary for a person and not a selfless task (It's not taking away free will as the Arisen has several options; do or don't, or Damien's path or refusing to be the Arisen, or those that got partway like The Dragonforged). I take it DD2 could have answered most of this, but doesn't sound like it from what I've heard. At least not a lot.