What Made Magic: The Gathering The Best TCG

An Indie Dev and a AAA Dev discuss ludo-narrative, or how mechanics evoke a story, in Magic: The Gathering.
Hosts: Forrest Imel forrestimel.com/
Gavin Valentine www.gavinvalentinedesign.com/
Join the Distraction Makers Discord: / discord
Thumbnail Artwork: Serra Angel by Donato Giancola

[@misomiso8228]

1. The main reason MtG is so successful imo is the colour pie. The resource system of lands and of having to CHOOSE which colours you put in your deck is so compelling mentally, and even spiritually when you get into the philosophy behind the colours, and no other TCG game has really got close to this. 2. It was the ‘first’, but it was also very well managed. It would have been easy to collapse but WotC really curated the game well. 3. IP wise it’s open to anything. it’s not limited to Arthurian Fantasy or magi-Steampunk, so the game can embrace many genres and sub-genres and still stay ‘magic’, which makes it incredibly creative. 4. Finally, back to gameplay, the game is incredibly fluid. You would never design a game like this now I think, but MtG has incredible freedom in how you play and interact and how you build your deck, and although that creates many problems in terms of design and digital implementation, the freedom is intoxicating. Great vid!

[@1984xfm]

IP wise it shouldn't be open to anything, and doing this with Universes Beyond is not only confusing, but dilutes the brand and the spirit of the game. Throwing every franchise and genre into Magic is causing a lot of damage. It''s like cutting your finger and not noticing any damage until the blood comes gushing out later.

[@nachoalfonso2614]

​@@1984xfmThe brand isn't diluted. Universes Beyond blends the way Magic is played with flavor from other IPs. The way the game plays is the same. Planeswalking has always been a part of the flavor of the game, and it is very exciting as a player to think about the different properties that we could see as cards in the following years.

[@1984xfm]

Totally disagree friend...Magic is about high fantasy, not smurfs, sci-fi, and whatever else they throw at it. It's brand dilution and loss of identity, pure and simple. Short term IP cash grabs that make the game stupid and ridiculous. The only real IP that has worked is LOTR. @@nachoalfonso2614

[@noahdigit430]

Love it when games make narrative and mechanics interweave into eachother.

[@zenithquasar9623]

I literally feel euphoric!

[@NateFinch]

I think the thing that makes Magic the best game is the interaction. No other game (to my knowledge) has such robust rules for interaction. The very first thing every other game throws out is instants. Which is hilarious to me because it's the instants that make magic amazing. If magic had only sorcery speed effects it would have died long ago. It would become like any other turn-based game where you do stuff during your turn and nobody can react until their own turn. Instants are complicated to design rules around and require the stack and passing priority and other complicated stuff. Even magic didn't get the rules right for instants for years. The fact that you have to be always paying attention in Magic is what makes it such an interesting game. At any time you could giant growth one of your blockers or berserk one of your attackers.... it multiplies the skill required to play by a factor of 10. Also, yes, not being built to fit another IP definitely helps. But that's basically always true. Almost every board game or card game that uses an existing IP is garbage, because the creators know they can lean on the IP for sales and they don't have to make the game itself awesome. A ton of people will buy a Spiderman board game just because they like Spiderman. Whereas a game like Wingspan has no existing IP and just had to be good.

[@yuseifido5706]

I would argue yugioh had a better system for interaction. Trap cards are iconic and having to physically display to your opponent that you may have interaction adds so many more levels to gameplay and mind games than just having instants in your hand

[@Ninjamanhammer]

​@@yuseifido5706 I'd argue having to display them and having to wait a turn removes more levels than it adds, since it's more obvious if they opponent has something or not.

[@yuseifido5706]

@@Ninjamanhammer this sounds to me like you havent played much. it's not obvious if they have something or not, they could set a bluff. also trying to guess what they could have set adds a lot to the game. having to commit resources to the board pre-emptively and predict which traps you will need to set adds way more skill and decision-making than it removes. it also allows for bluffing and mind games that cant happen in magic

[@pascalsimioli6777]

@yuseifido5706 Set your trap cards in ygo or have cards in your hands in mtg: it's the same feeling. As long as the player has cards in hands in mtg you know they may have a response at instant speed, if they're blue you're even more scared of what it might be. There's nothing that ygo adds to tcg, it was a mistake to begin with and it should've died a long time ago. I wish I grew up with a good card game instead, like mtg.

[@yuseifido5706]

@@pascalsimioli6777 sounds like someone is just salty and biased lmao

[@HaxDotCombo]

The thing about Yu-Gi-Oh is there's this second layer to the ludo narrative where it's a real game adapting the fake game a guy wrote into his comic book after only kinda understanding Magic. The basic rules of paper Yu-Gi-Oh have a lot less going on and felt like a poor adaptation to some people back in the day, but now the feature-creep and increased card complexity has actually made the real game feel like the calvinball stuff the old manga used to make up. It came full circle, and I think that's wonderful. It built up so much method that it recreated the (initially methodless) madness.

[@TheMinskyTerrorist]

They've recently forgotten that the game is about the player being their own planeswalker pulling from the resources of entire planes. Now it's focused on individual non-player planeswalkers and legendary creatures being superheroes and having crossover events. Usually themed around a small one off event that is some kind of party or celebration, usually a genre pastiche or parody, with no sense of scope. When combined with power creep, some beggar on the street is now a 3/4 that can kill an elephant in one on one combat. You're not a powerful wizard summoning armies and dueling another wizard, you're some kind of abstract presence dinking around with the abstract concept of going to a wedding, going to Hogwarts, roleplaying the Great Gatsby, roleplaying as Sherlock Holmes, hanging out with cowboys, etc.

[@mg95594]

I call this the "Seinfeld With Tieflings" Principle.

[@cablefeed3738]

Get over yourself magic The gathering is still great just because you are stuck in the past doesn't me its bad or worse.

[@andrewamann2821]

​@@cablefeed3738get gatekept, tourist, the game hasn't changed for the better, and if you had a holistic understanding of the game, you would recognize that. Power creep and oversaturation of cards aren't good for the health, or identity, of the game. Neither are the pending art lawsuits, come to think of it...

[@xXSamir44Xx]

I prefer it this way.

[@pascalsimioli6777]

@cablefeed3738 I own all 40k decks and half of Doctor Who decks, I love UB for the most part but do you think you're giving a good an honest answer? Just because someone doesn't like what's new in mtg doesn't mean mtg is bad now... And just because you like what mtg is doing now it doesn't mean it's good now. Never use logic that can be used against yourself, it's not a good look.

[@danacoleman4007]

Never underestimate the power of being "first to market". It's absolutely huge.

[@AndrewFullerton]

Never forget the power of being the *second* on the market -- aka the Apple model. Take something that's new and targetted at early adopters, then make a streamlined version for general audiences and jack up the marketing budget. I'd say the Pokemon TCG is the closest to fitting this model regarding Magic, but that's largely because traditional playing cards already had a monopoly on older demographics

[@distractionmakers]

It can be an advantage, but after 30 years I’m not sure we can say that was what did it.

[@nachoalfonso2614]

Being first alone doesn't justify the staying power Magic has had on the market for 3 decades now

[@SenkaZver]

First to market had massive benefits for MtG but they were complacent and had some near-geniuses to help develop the game and ensure it was successful for the next 20 years. Considering how much competition there was in the 00's and how MtG wasn't #1 always, especially in some major countries (Japan), first-to-market only has so much power.

[@tristanescure7384]

Something that has me a little worried with MtG flavor in recent years is that nothing seems to fit. They make a set with new interpretations of color combinations (Ikoria, Strixhaven, New Capena), people don't like that it's not the same as established factions. They revisit an established plane (Innistrad, Ravnica), it's just a diminished version of the original. They do a big crossover event (Phyrexia, Thunder Junction), the returning characters are winking at the camera way too hard. They adapt another IP into Magic (LoR, Fallout, all the secret lairs), half of it doesn't fit the color pie. I don't know how they'll get out of this loop...

[@distractionmakers]

It does feel like a bit of a spiral. The game has been through rough patches before and recovered so I think that can happen again. What is weird this time is the simultaneous profitability along with the weirdness. I suppose it could be that we have experienced a different version of mtg that has since changed, but it does feel like something special has been lost.

[@tristanescure7384]

@@distractionmakers there is an argument that the game has moved on and the players haven't. I do wonder, with all the planning ahead, if the designers have a way to answer this issue assuming they are aware of it. I think they could get it "right" with a big monocolor set on a brand new plane to level the field with modern design sensibilities. Kind of a new Dominaria or Phyrexia but without all the existing baggage. That or new gold factions that blow Ravnica, Alara and Tarkir out of the water but that seems hard.

[@olivermorin3303]

@@tristanescure7384 So basically, bring back Standard but give it a personality?

[@zenithquasar9623]

It wasn't long ago they had found a good groove...but they kind of got too greedy and too unfocused and panicy about the industry. Hasbro just wants to make quick money, I think they are less interested preserving some sort of strict integrity of the product. Just evolve it as they need, just respond to trends etc. And look at the popularity of Hearthstone and it took everything about Warcraft and just had fun with the IP, without ever being afraid to being silly. Wizards just doesn't want to be left in the dust of that.

[@shorewall]

I think ever since Magic Origins, when WOTC declared that they were going to put added emphasis on the Story, and the IP, and the Gatewatch, we have been trending in this direction. And it is now that I feel like we have crossed a line, where the characters matter more than the Plane, or the Color Pie. It's all about recognizable characters, and IP, instead of the color pie and mechanical philosophy. I think part of this is also attributable to the Popularity of Commander, where now there are SO MANY legendary creatures. And players are calling for each color to be able to draw cards, and ramp, and deal with all permanent types, even if that's not what they do in the Color Pie.

[@cablefeed3738]

Yep, and it's fantastic. I'm glad that it's the way it is now. The only thing I want back is blocks.

[@SenkaZver]

I will counter: Digimon colors do make sense and have their themes. Purple - All of the antagonist, evil, and virus digimon go here. As such, it deals heavily with graveyard, discards, mills, on-deletion effects, and sacrificing in the sense of "villains throwing away their subordinates". Purple agumon is virus-type Agumon, compared to Agumon who is usually vaccine-type. Black - All of the mechanized digimon go here. As such, it's more defensive (more blockers), has de-digivolve effects (altering the data of other digimon), reboot (vigilance -> flavor of data efficiency). A lot of the digimon here are data-type digimon. Red - All of the fire, dragon, and dinosaur digimon go here. As such, it's very aggro and has flat power boosting effects, +security attacks, and generally the protagonist deck as most main protagonist digimon are dragon/dinosaur types. Basically MtG Red. Blue - All of the aquatic and water/ice digimon go here. As such, it's very stall and control oriented, weakens enemy digimon (remove digivolution effects, TBH I don't get the flavor here), and generally plays with digivolution cards under digimon. Also lots of unsuspend effects, generally the deutagonist deck as well. But it's somewhat like MtG blue. Green - All of the nature, plant, insect digimon go here. As such, it's heavy on ramping, playing with your breeding area (nurturing), suspend effects (rooting), and faster digivolution effects. Basically MtG green but with tap effects. Yellow - All of the angelic and divine digimon go here, including a large amount of the vaccine digimon. As such, it has a lot of recovery (healing), -power effects, plays with your security deck (divine providence?), and -security attacks. White - All of the unique Digimon (Calumon) and ultimate existence Digimon (Omegamon/Omnimon) go here. There's definitely a consistent theme to the colors in Digimon, but I will agree that in the early days, it was more generic outside of those color themetics. However, I think Digimon has evolved a lot since then too. A lot of modern decks are built with archetypes that make you feel like that Digimon or Digimon/Tamer pair. Examples: D-Reaper isn't a Digimon so all of its' cards are white with "-" (null) level. They don't come from eggs and grow up, they're spawned by the Mother D-Reaper. it's very flavorful in how the Mother D-Reaper comes out of the breeding area, starts off a bit weaker as it ramps up, summons a swarm of weaker spawns that ramp up to larger creatures until you either have a swarm of D-Reapers or the ultimate D-Reaper. Etc, etc. The Royal Knights and Yggdrasil that break the typical system by directly playing your level 6s (in a balanced way) and feels like you're summoning/controlling all of the legendary Royal Knights and they're coming together to stop a threat. Diaboromon ramping up to Diaboromon as fast as possible and spamming as many weaker token clones of itself as it can, sacrificing its' clones, and overwhelming the opponent. Or sacrificing Diaboromon to play Armageddonmon (with Rush) as a massive singular threat that could take down Omegamon/Omnimon. There's a lot more story flavor and theming in the newer archetypes that make you feel like the deck IS that Digimon.

[@LucasTigy2]

they are based on the digimon fields. purple is nightmare soldiers so it involves all of the "spooky" digimon, many being undead, so they make the most sense for playing with the graveyard

[@aquadros]

I'm a little old and never got "into" MTG. Go figure... I tried some years ago when they launched Arena, and it didn't "clicked" again... Now recently it was some kind of moral challenge for myself: it's one of the greatest games of all times. I went into Arena again, then some 2 or 3 months I "started" playing for real LOTR hit. Suddenly the caos become order, I began to understand the relations between mechanics and colors, and looking at the way the designers expressed mechanically characters, relationships and all Middle-Earth's lore was a blast! After that Eldraine was nice too because I kinda "knew" all those stories. But then on I couldn't keep up with Arena's grinding system. And the other sets didn't had the same narrative appeal to me. I believe it is a great game, the design aspects are really top notch. But to me it is a deep commitment I can't take in this moment. Also playing online on Arena takes away much of the social aspect of the tabletop game.

[@DigitalinDaniel]

My favorite sets are the Alara block and Khans of Tarkir, they're like the tri-color Ravnica guilds but idk something about them just makes me love them so much more, possibly the more wild and untamed worlds than it being an urban setting. Even though I love dragons, the Dragons of Tarkir did the Tarkir block super dirty, Spice8Rack has an excellent video on it.

[@chibichanga1849]

It might be interesting at some point to talk about Netrunner, another Richard Garfield joint with an interesting concept, rich ludo-narrative structures, and a weirdly fraught existence as a piece of WotC IP.

[@distractionmakers]

We love Netrunner. 😄

[@joshua_lee732]

Dude I wanna hear this entire conversation.

[@JohnFromAccounting]

Magic cards being the story themselves is what gives it so much flavour. The artwork for Doomsday shows 5 demonic creatures doing some kind of evil ritual. It takes half your life and you choose 5 cards from your library then exile the rest. You've put yourself close to losing the game, either by taking too much damage or by losing when you run out of cards. It's a card that is begging you to find 5 cards that will definitely win the game, and if you get it wrong, you lose very quickly. I don't need some overarching narrative to describe the feeling of the position I'm in after casting this card. I've begun the end of the world by casting Doomsday, and the end feels near for me and my opponent.

[@distractionmakers]

Doomsday is a great example!

[@Dstinct]

The games overall narrative changed drastically once we got into the Ravnica era and brought in planeswalkers. The Arena novel and early HarperPrism novels perfectly tells the story of how the world is supposed to work. You are a powerful wizard duelling other wizards, trying increase your power and knowledge through a wagering your own spells and resources (ante). With your power, you can call and force people and creatures to appear and fight on your behalf, or cast spells you have learned to affect the battle. Many wizards are hated by the average person because they destroy whole countrysides with their spells and summons, leaving the common people to rebuild afterwards. When someone is summoned, they are compelled to fight against their own will. Once you hit a certain level of power, you may gain the attention of a super powerful planeswalker who people assume take you on as an apprentice. No one really knows if they are altruistic, or if you are seen as a threat to be dealt with.

[@EvanGaoTV]

Spice8rack called, they want their LUDONARRATIVE back

[@Morsbih]

The colors in Digimon follow along the Fields that they belong to. A green Augumon might still be a yellow lizard, but he's more inclined to evolve into a Tyrannomon or Tortamon over a Greymon. Of course, unless you're really into Digimon and read the reference book, the game doesn't directly communicate this

[@sunstrid3r44]

I think most ppl dont get it bc the animes are super linear with evolutions and almost never touch fields and atributes. But yeah, the colors are a nice way to show how branched and diverse the evolutions and species can be! (And i think sometimes they just put digimons from certain elements in colors regardless of field)

[@Jakerunio]

I think it is important to recognize that magic absolutely pigeonholed mechanics into certain colors during its inception. What happened is that the designers very quickly realized that doing that was a bad idea for not only balance reasons but because of the ways it restricts design and expression. What magic really did, which other games can learn from, is iterate upon its own initial ideas and be willing to push into new boundaries, with the colors as well as card types and other parts of design.

[@ashemabahumat4173]

I'd say that stopped being the case at around 2007, the competition was just as good and/or easier to get into. And other games that stuck around started basing themselves on Magic's competitors or drawing inspiration from multiple games. Wizards is just a shit company too, more-so than Bandai, TPC, and arguably the division of Komoney that handles Yugioh. Magic's monetary practices likely have also directly influenced how the others monetize with what they could get away with, so they likely contributed more towards the tank in quality across the board

[@dariush314159]

As someone who was a child in the nineties and who fell in love with the idea of the game when it was still Alpha, I agree. You could really get lost in the lore of each of the cards as well as the concept of two epic wizards dueling in fantastical lands. I will say however that the rulebook was incredibly daunting early on. I was mostly content to let the older kids actually play the game while I enjoyed the collectible, trading side of things. It wasn't until later that I could appreciate the mechanical depth and complexity of the game. I have to imagine that if Garfield and his team hadn't built and prioritized flavor to such an extent that another TCG could have easily stolen the show.

[@tonysladky8925]

Distraction Makers: All these things can go up or down. You can gain life or lose life, draw a card or discard a card... Poison Counters: Hold my beer.

[@Flum666]

you can remove poison counters in magic

[@JohnFromAccounting]

I love poison because each time the number goes up it feels even worse than losing life.

[@joshuacampbell17]

@@Flum666my brother in Yawgmoth nobody is playing Leeches. the only way you're getting out of poison counters is Karn Liberated -14

[@AndrusPr8]

Life gain should afect poison counters. It is one of the weakest mechanics and poison counters is of the strongest. But balance won't push sales as winning cheaply

[@ClubbingSealCub]

@@joshuacampbell17 wrong. suncleanser.

[@ReyaadawnMTG]

This is a very interesting conversation in the world of tons of new upcoming Universes Beyond.

[@00101001000000110011]

correct me if i'm wrong, but the games that inspired you the most seem to prolly take a hybrid approach to design, but most likely bottom up first. imho when you design bottom up, you already have narrative ingrained into the mechanical part in such a way they are much harder to tell apart and much more synergetic/resonant and organic. whereas when the reverse happens it feels more like an adaptation, artificial. since games are an interactive medium, opposite to the other classical narrative driven artforms, it feels like focusing on that interactivity first and then having the narrative blend into it is much more effective than forcing mechanics onto a narrative.

[@distractionmakers]

I agree with that assessment. Ueda has discussed his approach being similar. He lands on a mechanic feel that evokes an emotion and develops a story around it. What it comes down to for me is that,like you said, games are interactive in a way that other mediums aren’t. They can be a lot of fun different things, from metal gear to Elden ring. But, for me the most successful are the ones that embrace the medium to its fullest. Giving the player an experience through interaction and not observation.

[@00101001000000110011]

@@distractionmakers makes sense, ty for the reply!

[@kushluk777]

"Nerdbully" 💯✅💯✅💯✅💯✅💯✅💯✅

[@shorewall]

As a side note, I hate modern style clothing in MTG. From Cyberpunk Kamigawa, to Prohibition New Capenna, to Thunder Junction with Cowboy hats, every set feels like a Universes Beyond set now.

[@rocktop-games]

I dont necessarily hate modern style clothing in mtg, but I have thought before how in the latter sets the "gimmicks" have started feeling more like spoofs and what-ifs than ever.

[@thomasclowater9471]

@@rocktop-games i was thinking the same thing. New Capenna felt like a joke set, like unglued or unhinged. "lol what if Ob Nixilis was a gangster in chicago and wore a pin stripe suit? That would be hilarious!" and it is hilarious, but then when they turn around and say that New Phyrexia's greatest weakness is the New Capenna stand in for... cocaine? I have no idea what Halo is supposed to be, but the fact that New Capenna is critical to the finale of the Scars of Mirrodin plot really feels like the creative team got lost somewhere along the way to where we are now.

[@majinvegeta6364]

This is exactly the kind of mindset that stifles creativity and breeds stagnation. Game design is more art than science. The R&D team needs room to experiment, try new things, and hone their craft. If players don't like a product for entirely subjective reasons, then they are free to vote with their dollar and simply not buy it. Imagine someone lamenting that all music isn't like the Beatles or that there is non-biblical art displayed in a major museum. Why aren't all video games side scrollers? None of these restrictions would have been beneficial to their genres. Keeping MtG's aesthetic static wouldn't be either. Heck, I'm old enough to remember when players thought Innistrad was too modern, and now it is one of the most beloved planes / sets in the Multiverse. TLDR some stuff will work out, others won't, but none of it matters if you aren't willing to keep an open mind.

[@otterfire4712]

One Piece does this too. Red is power modulation and swarming/aggro, green is tapping/untapping, blue is bouncing cards to hand/deck and peaking the top card(s) of the deck, purple is energy manipulation, black is cost reduction (for cards on field), and yellow is live manipulation. This pie chart is even retained in some archetypes, the Vinsmoke siblings even follow this color philosophy. Even though they're all purple character cards, Ichiji wears a red battle suit and has an effect similar to a red card, Niji uses a blue suit and has a return to hand effect, Yonji is green with blocker (a color that more frequently has blockers compared to other colors), and Reiju uses a pink/purple suit and has a draw effect while behind on DON!! cards.

[@otterfire4712]

On top of this, archetypes and leaders have effects based on the character's powers/abilities. The Vivi leader and characters are able to rally your characters and enable them to attack the turn they're played. Moria's shadow fruit allows him to create "zombies" and his two cards reflect this, even his Shadow's Asgard follows the fact he can absorb the shadows of his weaker zombies to become stronger. Big Mom, has several cards that deal in life manipulation and even one that forces a choice on the opponent, there's even a Big Mom card that has almost no effects which represents the time she had lost her memories briefly.

[@CatManThree]

Kinda reminds me of the disaster that is how far yugioh now goes with this over magic. Flavor is so front center and handled so carelessly that it results in archetypes frequently breaking formats, becoming absolutely terrible functionally, or resulting in dumb engines or generic support for a pletheral of unrelated things.

[@Big_Dai]

@13:07 Wait.. as I understand it, maro was given the lead designer role on the SECOND set od Kamigawa where the foundation was already started. He led Betrayers, which was probably already under way too. Mirroding and most of the Brother's War narrative was already there! He just continued the format, no? If you want to look at his first proper set, you have to see the disjointed and badly designed Saviors of Kamigawa.. with mechanics and ideas that didn't serve the story, nor the gameplay!

[@jamesleuthauser9336]

I thought his first proper set was the firt Un set, no?

[@randommaster06]

"Every game tells a story..." Mario Party: The universe and also your fiends hate you and actively plotting your downfall.

[@thomasclowater9471]

It's such a dead horse to keep beating, but Commander really is rotting the game to its core. MtG has had a long, successful history, refining and refining its rules, design philosophies, etc, until along comes a fan made format, that doesn't follow many of the core rules of the game, which all the cards are balanced around. They're now trying to design their game to basically accommodate a completely new game, which they have no say over the rules of, without breaking the original rules of MtG. The only solution is to just separate the game into two streams; 100 card, and 60 card. Actually design standard sets for standard and limited, and just make more original cards in commander products. More sets like commander legends, or baldur's gate, or whatever, but the way it's going now, where they're just bending over backwards for this ultra casual, horribly unbalanced format that they aren't allowed to fix, is negatively impacting everything.

[@alexmoskowitz811]

I suspect universes beyond works because magic is mature and large enough that it’s mechanical design space is bigger than the IP’s narrative space . You could probably design a whole bunch of cards for certain feelings and then figure out what IP characters they should match

[@DanielRedMoon]

It's probably because consumers stopped caring about Jace and the super friends, so the gameplay is all that remains. So the power of IP-selling and money-making is priority.

[@shorewall]

I feel like Universes Beyond is just slapping cards and characters together. Forcing MTG mechanics onto Characters who don't do anything like that.

[@Sidenonra]

One of the biggest failure ludo-narrative of was Quandrix, stryxhaven was meant to make the colleges different different than the guilds..Then they made quandrix's thing let's put some +1+1 counters on stuff when simic has the most ludo-narrative stable mechanics ..But sure green blue is only+1+1 counters...

[@ICantThinkOfAFunnyHandle]

Green blue has exactly two gimmicks: +1/+1 counters and growth spiral stapled onto creatures

[@floridaman6982]

But fractals and math, double and double again!

[@Sidenonra]

@@ICantThinkOfAFunnyHandle Are you sure about that? cause I can think of at least five ways to be green blue that's not that

[@ICantThinkOfAFunnyHandle]

@@Sidenonra that's what WoTC believes at least

[@Sidenonra]

@@ICantThinkOfAFunnyHandle But that's not even true. Greeen/blue has cool cloning effects, drawing cards on damaging your opponent, untapping/tapping thing when they shouldn't

[@FallenStarFeatures]

"There's enough people that are a part of the game that obviously understand how important the Color Pie is and ... having the Council of Colors now... I think that they care about that and want to make sure that those identities aren't going to be watered down." Would those be the same people who oversaw the deluge of Treasure tokens that have OBLITERATED the Color Pie?

[@cablefeed3738]

Treasures don't eliminate the color pie. They just give you access to the colors to do things that only a certain color can .you still need to sack the treasure for red mana To do a red thing.

[@FallenStarFeatures]

@@cablefeed3738 No, Treasure tokens don't "eliminate" the Color Pie, they just make it superfluous. Unlike all other types of artifact tokens, which require you to pay a cost to sacrifice, Treasure tokens cost zero to redeem, provide any color you like at instant speed, and NOTHING can stop you from cashing them in, ANYTIME you please. In short, they're OP freebies the game hands out like candy.

[@cablefeed3738]

@@FallenStarFeatures I get what you're saying. I just believe you're overreacting a bit considering while treasures do exist a lot. They're not the biggest problem ever in modern or popper. Or even in commander which is something I play just not as often as pauper but I play popper. And commander more than modern. They're fine and now they Enter tapped as well so at least they're curbing it a little bit.

[@FallenStarFeatures]

@@cablefeed3738 Only a few cards produce tapped Treasure tokens - the rest of them can be immediately tapped and sacrified for mana. I suppose WotC could issue an errata declaring henceforth, all Treasure tokens will ETB tapped, but that would only slow them down a bit. To actually make them balanced, the errata would need to read: "Treasure tokens can be self-sacrificed only as a Sorcery."

[@cablefeed3738]

@@FallenStarFeatures I know it's only started now. I'm saying you don't have to worry about them printing the non Tap ones as much anymore And like I said, I don't think the treasure cards that have been printed so far have destroyed the game. Most of them aren't even that playable. A few are really good, really good. But most are eh

[@DanielRedMoon]

That's an interesting topic.. Magic FELT unique because it was its own thing. But.. Giving an identity to colors clashed with the idea the game presented, no? Things should work differently on each Plane! But aside from some mechanics, things are all pretty same-y. Combat, interactions with game elements (players, graveyard, etc), and so on. Kamigawa made White the "villains". But aside from a narrarive win, it offered nothing when it came to gameplay. I'd say Magic should have been the game to break these conventions, instead of being the one creating them! * Your mention of Terror is a great example of things the game no longer does. When the world building and flavor meant more than the experience. Now even blue has board wipes, black enchantment removal and such.

[@distractionmakers]

As time has gone on the colors have become more fuzzy. Play patterns and set design has become more solidified. Even to the point that MARO has created paint by numbers skeletons of sets. I think we’re in the era of Hasbro’s magic and turning on the firehose is what is causing the stagnation, power creep, and complexity creep. The experimentation has moved into focusing on how to sell more product instead of creativity.

[@shorewall]

@@distractionmakers I think also, because Commander is the most popular format, drawing from all cards in Magic's history, there is a lot of color pie breaks that become popular. After all, if I am constrained by my Color Identity, then finding cards that do things that my color can't normally do is an advantage. People want all colors to be able to draw cards, and ramp, and deal with all types of permanents, even if that's not what they are supposed to do. And that is killing the Color Pie. And WOTC is perfectly willing to kill the Goose that lays the golden eggs, just on the off chance to get a few more eggs ahead of schedule.

[@cablefeed3738]

​@@shorewallCommander, being the most popular format has nothing to do with it. If a different format was the most popular, the desire for Hasbro to make money would lead to them spending way too much time on that.

[@masalanicholoff3593]

I don’t think that the colors having their own identity clashes with the idea that planes are unique. There still does have to be some cohesion between planes for them to feel like they’re connected. I think what clashes is the fact that WotC uses tropes a little too much. Elves as green. Domesticated animals as white. Wizards as blue. Parasites as black. Fire as red. I think some of the most memorable designs are when a creature type is changed. Lorwyn’s Elves being vain and cruel is awesome, and they feel different from most elves, even Golgari elves despite being the same colors. The LotR elves being Simic made them stand out for me. The blue zombies of Innistrad are also pretty cool. Dimir vampires drink thoughts. For some more design space that could be used, why not have Izzet merfolk based around geothermal vents who use steam magic? Why not make fire white for a set? Innistrad would be the perfect plane to do that. Why not make elves Azorius? White Wizards. Rakdos druids?

[@freddiesimmons1394]

The game no longer does... terrors? In basically every 2nd set theres a new flavor driven terror that can't kill something in particular

[@MrRayRockstar]

MTG is the best game ever!!! Literally, every other tcg is just fan made mtg. FAB, Sorcery, Star Wars(the new one),Grand Archive, etc.

[@Xoulrath_]

Magic WAS the best card game, and for a very long time. But Wizards jumped off of a cliff without a parachute chasing money and laot game design on the way down.

[@MichaelWBrennan]

Agreed. The blatant disregard for the story and their own IP is what made me get into other tcgs. I don't want to play MTG to play Final Fantasy VS Marvel VS Assassin’s Creed VS Fallout. I want to play MTG for MTG. If I wanted to play those other IPs, I’d play their respective games

[@DanielRedMoon]

​@@MichaelWBrennan Now even "proper Magic sets" (like that upcoming cowboy one) feel like a Crossover. With Satoru, the ninja from Neon-gawa, joining the fray. They really ruined the one thing Magic had going for it, the story, with rushed developments.

[@cheesi]

Depends what aspect you're looking at it I guess. As a business, as an ongoing thing in the direction it's going, sure, but the old stuff still exists and still is the best. As a rules system too it still feels unbeatable to me.

[@Liliana_the_ghost_cat]

​@@DanielRedMoon the story definetely suffered a lot after they removed the block structure. It feels a lot more rushed overall

[@Xoulrath_]

@@cheesi it's a living, breathing game. You can't separate the past from the present and future. Sure, formats exist, but Vintage hasn't actually been playable for decades in any serious capacity outside of some SCG tournaments, proxy events, and of course MTGO. Legacy isn't in a much better spot thanks to the Duals and several other high dollar RL cards that can see play. Modern might be the worst off. For as much as I love the MH sets overall, the stupidity of the power creep that has entered the format.because of those sets is clearly from a business standpoint to sell product as opposed to making a product that is good that will sell on its own. So no, past Magic doesn't make up for current and future Magic's failings. And speaking of past Magic, the 5th Edition rules were superior in every way to the joke that is the stack.

[@royalecrafts6252]

The mana draw just kills it for me

[@Sidenonra]

Look up shadow fist or L5R....

[@rlwarner777]

The colors for Digimon don't make sense because it's an archetype based game, like Yugioh.

[@TheArkhamjester]

No discussion of Flesh and Blood? Unique IP plays different from the big three, beat the two year curse.

[@distractionmakers]

Flesh and blood deserves its own video =)

[@floridaman6982]

FnB is cool, just wish we actually had a group around here. MTG is easier to onboard people for some reason

[@dislikebutton9571]

It was good, isn't anymore.

[@josebarrera6104]

See title. I completely disagree with this one, guys, but I will listen.

[@cablefeed3738]

M t g is the best card game. But you're allowed to be wrong.

[@pascalsimioli6777]

@cablefeed3738 dude you are everywhere in this comment section shilling for this game, it's pathetic and if you have unresolved traumas please go to therapy.

[@cablefeed3738]

@@pascalsimioli6777 I don't know what you mean by. I'm everywhere in the comments. I made five replies if that's everywhere, there's probably only thirty comments.

[@totalvoid6234]

"I've played 3 card games and thus think Magic is the best card game out of all of them"

[@MrRayRockstar]

What's the number 1 tcg currently?

[@royalecrafts6252]

​@@MrRayRockstarthe number 1 based on which criteria?

[@MrRayRockstar]

@@royalecrafts6252 sales, recognition, time, etc.

[@MrRayRockstar]

@@royalecrafts6252 sales, recognition, time, etc

[@MrRayRockstar]

@@royalecrafts6252 total sales, name recognition, longevity, etc.

[@jamesleuthauser9336]

I think it's time we admit that Garfield is the best flavor, world, and story game designer possibly of all time. But, also, that he's AWFUL at mechanics and function

[@Samst0n]

The man designed the entire framework of the game and the whole first set and you think mechanics and function are his weak point? Alpha had issues but as a game made with nothing to compare it to he did a pretty stellar job.

[@jamesleuthauser9336]

@@Samst0n I'd agree if the issues weren't so numerous, and also if a lot of his other games didn't also have function problems. I mean robo rally is a nightmare that he made around the same time. A fun one, to be sure, but not for the reasons he wanted it to be. The BattleTech TCG was mechanically even worse. He's gotten better as time went on but it's still sometimes an issue that pops up in his work

[@Ninjamanhammer]

​@@jamesleuthauser9336 Robo rally is the best board game ever made, what are you on about?

[@jamesleuthauser9336]

@@Ninjamanhammer No, that's scythe (I like 'em crunchy) and again, rally is really good, but not for the reasons he intended. He's even admitted it never hit the mark

[@danacoleman4007]

😂😂😂

[@robertomacetti7069]

magic is a game about resource management ... where the best decks blatantly cheat with ease at said resource management

[@Xoulrath_]

It isn't cheating if it's in the rules...or something. 😂

[@robertomacetti7069]

@@Xoulrath_ i meeeeeeean

[@00101001000000110011]

honour among thieves.. if everyone can steal freely, then the problem isn't stealing.

[@Ninjamanhammer]

I mean that is exactly the reason they are the best decks.

[@skaven969]

wrong it's duel masters

[@Always.Smarter]

Least pretentious magic players