What Postmodernism IS and REALLY ISN'T - Jordan Peterson analysis

SUPPORT ME ON PATREON!
To support this channel and access content early, visit:
/ themediainsider
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The first 1,000 people to use the link will get a 1 month free trial of Skillshare: skl.sh/themediainsider07221
Following on from my previous video called: postmodernism explained for beginners in which I outlined the ideas of simulacra and hyperreality (Baudrillard) • Postmodernism explaine... - in this video I look at the more Philosophical side of postmodernism. More specifically I follow up on Jorda Peterson's use of postmodernism in the culture wars online.
I analyse his argument in his video titled 'Why you have to fight postmodernism' • Jordan Peterson: Why Y...
Music provided by HookSounds - get a discounted subscription by using this link:
www.hooksounds.com/ref/TheMed...
or use the code INSIDER10 when you sign up directly!
The Media Insider is a channel for all things media and film. If you are studying them or just an enthusiast, subscibe for regular doses of theory and analysis.

[@dendrome2492]

I like the fact that 4hrs after the upload and ~500 views, there is an ongoing debate in the comment section with some critique and personal points of views and still not a single dislike (i use a tool for that), showing me that you are truly a remarkable teacher. Greetings from austria, keep up the good work!

[@binkey3374]

Actually, KZbin has made dislikes private. So, only the video creator can see how many dislikes they are getting.

[@ZelphTheWebmancer]

@@binkey3374 The original commenter said they have a tool for that, funnily enough I have it too. It shows the video has 2 dislikes currently. At the time of the comment is possible it had zero.

[@dendrome2492]

@@binkey3374 thats why i use this tool, its quite handy sometimes

[@ekaterinastaneva9922]

@@dendrome2492 is this for real? What's the tool?

[@TheMediaInsider]

Thank you! Part of the reason that I made this video was because I hated the more aggressive side of the debate which I was seen everywhere online, so really pleased that this video has bought such positive critique

[@ZelphTheWebmancer]

I remember seeing somewhere that neutrality and not being polarized often makes it difficult to you to relate with people that are polarized. Seeing the comment section having both JP fans and critics saying you were too harsh or too polite to him is funny because it kinda proves this. I just watched both your videos on postmodernism and I still have difficulty understanding it but I feel like I have a *slightly* better grasp about it than before. Thanks.

[@Schnooklebear71]

Thanks for your take on it. I'm trying to get my arms around this and how it relates to current social issues and I want a variety of perspectives.

[@rvheem7702]

I actually subscribed to you because of your video on postmodernism…loving the work…keep it up

[@N2theR]

Really good video and a good debate. You did say that you didn’t want to make it a left v right discussion but focusing on Peterson and the media’s portrayal of him as far right does imbalance the conversation. What about Chomsky who also sees postmodernism as an instrument of power harnessed by academics and thought leaders to control the cultural narrative? That’s both a right and left voice offering similar critical analysis of postmodernism. I’d be interested on your take

[@iNTELLECT_419]

I was going to mention Chomsky as well. One of the things that seems to be glaringly missing is that he did not mention that he studied Derrida and Foucault who are the intellectuals that drove Postmodernism. In my opinion if you’re not studying their contributions to Postmodernism you’re not getting no where close to a full understanding of it.

[@IWishUWereTacos]

I'm a total dunce with scholastics, but I have a curious brain so I've been enthralled with your channel lately. Thanks for making complex concepts more digestible for me!

[@TheMediaInsider]

My pleasure! If I can make the complex accessible then it's job done!

[@iamleoooo]

@@TheMediaInsider any book suggestion that i can read regarding post-modernism? Maybe latest book written by 21st century author?

[@ntodd4110]

@@iamleoooo Read "Authoritarianism and Pragmatism" by RIchard Rorty.

[@timwillis6433]

Great video! Thanks for your insights!!

[@TheMediaInsider]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@musicredsubaru]

I was going to comment in the previous video, but I decided not to because my observation wasn't quite relevant to the discussion, but, now that you have brought up Jordan Peterson's use of the word postmodern, as a label for leftist activists, and your understanding of the word, as meaning an academic observation, I feel more confident sharing this. I had a question while pursuing my master's degree about making postmodern arguments without giving the impression that I didn't believe in anything (because postmodernism shows a skepticism surrounding these narratives). My answer came from a book that said that a person can argue a postmodern idea, but that same person cannot occupy it in debates. Therefore, one cannot say, "I'm a postmodernist. All your arguments are subjective because truth is defined by every individual." That made much more sense to me, and my understanding of postmodernism went smoother after that. Jordan Peterson seems to be pigeonholing a group to occupy a postmodern idea. But people cannot occupy a postmodern idea in debates. Thanks for coming back to this topic.

[@SisterMerrinyesNext]

Great video(s)-as usual! I like this quote: 'If modernism is beginning to question authority, then postmodernism is making fun of authority to its face.' (Giles Gough)

[@TheMediaInsider]

I really like that too, and it’s definitely far more in line with how I’ve always thought of the concept

[@noiselesspatient]

Superb and balanced. Thank you.

[@tugwinthrop7424]

Great topic, but somewhat simplistic to categorize the pre modern era with religion as the grand narrative. I mean is that the only thread in Shakespeare? What is more interesting to me are the persistent themes that manifest themselves in the post modern era. Like the woman that fell off a cruise ship and drowned taking a selfie. Was the myth of Narcissus a religious grand narrative?

[@DrinkTheKoolAid62]

I think your hypothesis on Peterson's outlook of postmodernism is spot on

[@danyvigil]

Hello, Thank you for the video, and the previous one, they have helped me to understand a little more. I came to your channel because I have spent weeks trying to understand postmodernism because of some school assignment, my field is photography. I have a question: from my current understanding, postmodernism is based on skepticism and the rejection of metanarratives, but as a result it seems to create new dogmas. Do you think that is a correct interpretation? I am studying the influence of postmodernism in contemporary art, and being in a art school, I can tell you that it is almost impossible to question an artwork or well known artists, it somehow looks like you are questioning a god and their teachings. Isn't it paradigmatic that an ideology based on skepticism and the challenging the concept of the truth does not allow criticism and ask people to accept its products as dogmas? Or do you think I am wrong in that interpretation? Thank you!

[@john_molden]

I don't think your interpretation is wrong but you must keep in mind that postmodernism is also theoretical, in the same way, many things are theoretical. the presence of many grand narratives can mean that there is no truth so people go with the proof in which they see. people will throw off meta-narratives ideas and focus on their own narrative. This will lead to the creation of people's world views and a critique of their world view is to question their reality. under the ideas of post-modernism, the truth can be subjective and Jordan Peterson likes to point fingers at the left when the fact is everyone is guilty of creating a worldview based on their own lived experiences and breaking someone's reality can lead them into a crisis of identity because people hold their identity in their world view. you are right, there may not be room for criticism, but that's purely up to the person receiving the criticism. The idea behind post-modernism is to be critical but I think the further we go in becoming critical, we lead ourselves down to what I call post-postmodernism, where there is a complete disregard for factual reality and facts have now become subjective. (keep an eye out for my book on this post-postmodernism)

[@tonysienzant6717]

You're exactly right. The Post Modernists are simply swapping out New Grand Narratives (dogmas) that they like & prefer & accept for the Grand Narratives of the Past, simply because they are of the Past, without COMPREHENDING that the Past Traditions must have some utilitarian VALUE because those traditions GAVE US THESE DEMOCRATIC SOCIETIES & FREEDOMS we ALL benefit from. In other words: Be Careful What You Wish For ! Heaven can turn to Hell in a micro-second, given Human Nature.

[@DioArt]

Hey! Glad to have found your channel. Question: have you heard about the Sokal hoax? If so, what do you make of it? Thanks!

[@trevorlawson1285]

Great work mate!

[@carriemcclung7374]

I appreciate this video and the last one (PM for beginners). Fact is, we (GenX and onward) are postmodern generations. GenX arguably is the least postmodern of the four (Millennials, GenZ, and genAlpha). I am GenX. We were brought up by the last modernity-embracing generation and have parented the younger generations. We are the ones grieving lost aspects of modernity and appreciating found aspects of postmodernism. I agree with you, that there are so many different ways of looking at PM that we can easily get lost in the debate. However, coming at it from the cultural point of view, as you do, is quite brilliant. GenX and the older Millennials grew up with The Simpsons, Princess Bride, Star Wars, Star Trek, and countless stars that are now brilliantly referenced in satire and non-satire alike. We love this. We are drawn to kids' movies like "Trolls", because they use our cultural references and music and redefine them, giving them, inadvertently, a new life. Why do we like this? Because we are of the AGE of postmodernism. We cannot help but be of this age. It is the very cultural air we breathe. We think, dream, and live in these boundless realms of invention through reinvention. What PM architecture started, TikTok has completed. This aspect of PM makes us all post-modern. However, the philosophical side, the rejection of Metanarratives of any kind, the embracing of Marx and Engels from a new perspective ("the only reason it failed in history is that they didn't do it *right* - WE will do it *right*, you'll see"), the distrust of anything or anyone that has been "favored" to be replaced with that which has been "oppressed" without regard for any sense of truth, the very distrust of the word and concept of truth itself... well, that is a problem in society that has lead us down paths that have, at best, been unconstructive. Living without boundaries, the very discarding of the possibilities of boundaries has not led to the freedom earlier postmodernists hoped for but rather has left us confused, willing to risk, lost, and grasping for anyone to rescue us from this state. It has not created a super generation, able to ascend and become the Ubermensch we so desperately hoped to evolve into. Instead, it has, in so many ways, bankrupted us intellectually and socially. By each becoming his own island, her own definition of truth, their own set of morals, we are rapidly falling into anarchy of individualism instead of unity of society, where we honor one another and the world around us. We are no longer able to embrace anyone who is "other" than our own little bubble of "reality" and lash out at each other, attempting to bully each other into the submission of our own world, doctrine, and narrative. Our rejection of Metanarratives has caused countless micronarratives. These are fun to explore in film but difficult to make a cohesive society out of. The question now is this: What will come next? Where do we go from here? Thank you, again for these great videos. I will actually be using them in my Postmodernism class this afternoon. Let's see how they will grasp this subject...

[@janlindgren8473]

Thank you for a very interesting video. :)

[@TheMediaInsider]

Thanks for saying!

[@miguelrico6459]

I've been waiting for this video for a year now! As a masters soon to be P.H.D student in media studies (specializing in cinema and television) and aspiring teacher, I've always found your videos so very insightful and inspiring. Keep up the good work.

[@TheMediaInsider]

Thank you! I absolutely love teaching this subject, and if it's something you love discussing with curious young minds, then teaching is absolutely the way to go

[@jjohns4170]

Thanks for explaining post modernism. Before I only heard Peterson’s point of view of it. You explained the topic extremely well. Would be interesting to see Peterson watch this video

[@TheMediaInsider]

My pleasure! I hope I've not come across as too against the man himself, more just his inflammatory presentation of his ideas

[@jinccha8234]

@@TheMediaInsider Honestly, it was refreshing to hear an actual person with a film media background talk about it. Thank you so much!

[@taofallenstar6419]

@@TheMediaInsider I think JBP's representation of these ideas is inflammatory because he sees the great evil that these ideas lead to and you just haven't seen that perspective yet. Just like how when he blew up for refusing to obey the compelled speech doctrine of the SJWs and bill C-16, many people CHEERED for him because they saw the danger that he was standing up to while others simply saw his as being a grumpy old asshoel because they did NOT see the danger in what he was pushing back against. My guess is that you do not yet see the great danger inherent in postomdern thought and how it manifests in society because you are still focused on the academic definitions of pomo and not the 3rd wave pomo psychological and ideological subversion and demoralization that pomo has inspired. It's postmodern reletavism weaponized in service to neo-Marxism. It's NOT academic pomo or academic Marxism. It's the fruits that have been born from those trees of thought.

[@gamdanyunizar7849]

debate when?

[@sixmillionsilencedaccounts3517]

Watch Chomsky's take. It's very negative too.

[@manek3]

ty very nice way of explaining things about bb !

[@Egos_Altar]

Love the video. You may need to de-ess your signal. High sibelence levels. Cheers

[@morgenstern5748]

Thank you for the video! As someone who has always felt a certain reticence towards the more traditional grand meta narratives, including a resistance to the tendency of those narratives towards extremism, I enjoy learning about postmodern ideas that encourage a more considered, dispassionate approach to the many different ideas currently in competition with each other in the marketplace.

[@alanrobertson9790]

How does taking into account lived experience result in more considered, dispassionate approach rather than the scientific method? Wouldn't that be precisely the opposite?

[@morgenstern5748]

@@alanrobertson9790 Lived experience seems to push and pull one continuously towards any number of multiple ideologies over the course of a lifetime - integrating scientific thinking into one's experience of the world would simply be to adopt a specific metanarrative out of all the metanarratives one could choose.

[@alanrobertson9790]

@@morgenstern5748 Yes if you consider everyone on the planet, all lived experiences, you would get within it all the different individual views including science, religions and everything else. If you think of it as a Venn diagram there would be points of intersection. It might be a religion held by many, or experience of oppression in a ghetto etc. However what is the area of greatest intersection? It is reality, an experience of the external world. The tests of truth and reality to gauge whether something is in the common point of intersection is science. You could also say that within the set of lived experiences there are rational and irrational beliefs and indeed every other classification. So in a way thinking of everything as a lived experience does not really change anything. All other views can also still be applied within the total set. So you can't criticise my lived experience would not make any sense. All other classifications also apply. However if you took the view that all lived experience were equal regardless of tests for rationality, self consistency, constructiveness etc then you would have absolute relativism. This is the world of a man can be a woman, a dog, a fairy, Santa Claus etc. For some reason this seems to be where post-modernism has lead us to but I don't think that is inevitable. You would have to make the argument that other classification/belief systems should not exist.

[@CDABXXX]

@@alanrobertson9790It’s ironic and fascinating how you reconcile transphobia with reality and science, but somehow also expected.

[@alanrobertson9790]

@@CDABXXX I'm not in fear, I regard trans as silly lacking any basis in reality. Why would I have to show deference to other peoples inner beliefs? These are potentially infinite. Have your fantasies but don't inflict them on others.

[@mattrudkin]

Yes, I also didn't recognize the Postmodernism described by Jordan Peterson, but perhaps this is because I'm in my 50's and studied the 'original' French version, which seemed more politically ambiguous. It seems to me that Postmodernism can be appropriated by different political groups, much in the same way that Evolutionary theory (including Evolutionary Psychology) can be. I found a video which usefully describes the differences between old-school French PM and new-school US PM: kzbin.info/www/bejne/kKiUppaQetaEbZo

[@justinludeman8424]

Great points and thank you for the link.

[@chriswimer6296]

Great video! Completely agree. Jordan uses postmodernism as a catch all term for anyone who doesn’t agree with him. I used to think that he was rather respectful and that he was genuinely interested in having open discussion. But he has really fallen and has become something else entirely. He mainly just stokes the fire between left and right. It’s pretty disappointing to see. Thanks for the great video

[@jimh3500]

You have clearly read and “understood” the abundant sources and thinkers of the Modern and Postmodern schools. Understanding is a slippery handle with these topics and I don’t claim to understand them but I do believe that I am conversational in them. At least enough to prop up my world view, which is a serious claim but also laughable considering the mine field I’m walking blindly through. Anyway, though I’m a knuckle dragging novice, I applaud your work. I appreciate these discussions.

[@superdudehello]

Thanks for the video!

[@tarp-grommet]

Nice. You have a new subscriber.

[@jeffwhiteside6579]

i like the in-video commercial during the postmodern discussion lol...

[@ujjwalathukral398]

Ur videos are liked and admired by all.. all over the world.. here in India too

[@lintollefsen7166]

Thank you for this intelligent, insightful analysis.

[@James-ll3jb]

Absolutely correct. He also sees in postmodernism the reduction of his authoritarian, jargonesque 'big science' truth-claims to the status of mere "ex pluribus unum", devaluing his own personal struggle for truth. Wittgenstein (who once aserted as inviolable the axiom that "the world is determined by fact") also took philosophical issues personally, regarding metsphysics itself as something rooted in an overvaluation of the function of language. Curious parallel!

[@VistasdelMar2008]

Excellent video. Thanks for this, and many others I find useful for teaching in my classes. I would say that what Jordan Peterson has achieved, certainly on the coattails of many rigorous modernist academics who errupted like volcanos at the beginnings of postmodernism, can be understood in what William Connolly presented in The terms of Political Discourse as "essentially contested concepts". While Connolly limited his analysis around more obvious concepts like freedom, democracy, rights, etc., later discourse theorists showed how ANY language term could become an "essentially contested concept", thus we have seen how body politics have emerged, LGBQT issues, what a "vote" is, what a vaccine is, absolutely anything can be "politicised" - aka weaponised, including Postmodernism if in doing so we can attach ourselves to a preferred discourse community by doing so. Today we can add cancel culture, climate change, and veganism among them.

[@TheMediaInsider]

I really Like teaching David Gauntlett as a counter point to this - the idea that the numerous grand narratives and representations on offer allow for better self identification and discovery. I think it all comes down to good old feat of change for some people.

[@stigmellem]

"The scepticism we have toward the narratives [told in the modern era]. I like that 😍 After more than a twenty years 'pause' from studying, I've gone back to university to finish my dream project (master thesis) where I am attacking the modernist ideas about labour recruiting. Why are some types of higher education preferred before others? (And the field I'm exploring this question in is the energy market. Why do the employers prefer ingénieurs and economists? Through my thesis I reject the idea of discrimination only to be toward social dimensions (gender, ethnicity, age, and so on, physical disabilities, not to forget). Discrimination may also be applied to knowledge, competency and education - it's just that we've learned that this is legitimate. So I deconstruct the opposition [ Discrimination / Not-discrimination ] and replace it with [ Legitim discrimination/ Illegitim discrimination]. This is only one of the deconstructions I do. I also reject the modern recruitment thesis "Right person on right place". It's a very modern construct... and I've been subjected to it many times. Which turns the discussion to ideology (or Power-knowledge, whom Foucault would have preferred to call it). I guess I've revealed enough now to give potential readers an idea of my project. Anyone who'd like to contact me regarding this is welcome to do so. The case is that I am pretty alone around my place having these thoughts 😅

[@davidpo5517]

Nice, some interesting thoughts. "With so many grand narratives on offer, there can't be one single truth. They can be interpreted in an infinite number of ways." Seems to me the best response to this isn't to give up on grand narratives in favor individual world views, but instead go find the single true interpretation to the single true grand narrative. But anyways... I think Jordan Peterson's usage of postmodernism probably comes from his scientific field of study -- human psychology -- so his usage of the term skips the actual definition, and shoots straight into its psychological effects on the average person, and how it's affects on many individuals has resulted in a sort of ideological cultural war within society. Not a thoughtful critique--a hostile socio-political battleground. Just the fact that this so obviously exists speaks to the truth of the perspective that most people who play with postmodernist ideas only do it because they don't know what else to do, and they likely don't even understand it. Honestly, I'd hope you have an answer to this: what use is postmodernism? No seriously, most people like having a grand narrative to follow. And a large portion of people don't like to think about philosophy at all. Postmodernism might be good a critiquing modernist structures, but it doesn't really offer anything except "freedom" from structures and traditions you dislike, which is really just a type of rebellion that you justify with philosophy. And you need some sort of grand narrative in order for large groups of people to function. Extreme individualism solves nothing, it just makes large, structured groups impossible. I don't think there is such a thing as pure postmodernism philosophy. I don't think people genuinely act skeptical of all grand narratives and their structures; people just get along with their lives, and if they happen to find some injustice that happens to bug them, then they challenge it. It's a system of thought that's inherently irregular and unstructured. Most people are just going to see that as chaotic. It's impossible for a human to be truly postmodernist in all aspects of their lives--claiming to be so inevitably just leads to hypocrisy, which is why that's such a common accusation against progressives.

[@grumpydharmabum]

Interesting comments. Have you noticed that “… there can’t be one single truth…” is apparently self-contradictory?

[@ahmedharagy2277]

I want to salute you for this ❤

[@kevincurrie-knight3267]

I think of postmodernism less as philosophy than as sociology of sorts. Not "This is what should happen," but "This is what is happening." Not "hooray for the death of metanarratives!" but "metanarratives are unable to sustain and regardless of whether you think that is good, you need to deal with it.' That's where I think Peterson goes wrong. He seeks a big normative message behind postmodernism, when few postmodernists ever saw that as their job. Foucault tried to describe (albeit in a very particular way). Lyotard's Postmodern Condition was (per the subtitle) a "report" (not a "treatise") on the state of knowledge. Etc. And to be honest, as a sociology of what is happening, they nailed it.

[@John-lw7bz]

Yeah yeah tell to the meat shredder buddy. (Jk do you have any books that i could read on this so I could get into something of substance? Also I'd rathery they not be bu any of the french pdf files)

[@vladislavkorti6955]

So interesting to see that Obi-Wan Kenobi is not only proficient in Jedi arts, but also in sociology.

[@TheMediaInsider]

Best. Comment. Ever.

[@seangeeling]

Another great video from you, this time with a decidedly personal touch. I was only every aware of the term as your previous video discussed, in terms of media studies, not as a tool of the culture war. I guess you must have worked hard on this one, and especially to not use the term ‘woke’ as any kind of synonym in this context. Appreciate your work and candour here.

[@TheMediaInsider]

Thanks as always, appreciate the support and feedback - this was actually an experiment in being less scripted, So gonna keep planning my videos like this moving forward I think! The more I read all these comments though, the more I realise I am still just at the tip of the iceberg of this debate

[@Leon-G-Brown]

Fantastic analysis

[@mannytimana446]

check out peterson's debate with slavoj zizek

[@TheMediaInsider]

I’ve heard a few people mention this so I definitely will thank you!

[@agnivaray7476]

I'm so glad that voices of reason are still there. Voices that evaluate the situation through understanding of truth, while trying to be bias-free. Mostly, we've become so used to passion-driven narrative even if they're flawed in understanding. Thank you for what you're doing, mate!

[@adamh3765]

Whose truth?

[@orfeooow]

Deserves way more likes people!!

[@TheMediaInsider]

Damn right!

[@nurifidei4056]

The whole philosophy of postmodernism can be summerized in the fact that Derrida defended the journalist Paul De Man for his work in the Belgium newspaper that was supporting the Nazi German war effort, since for postmodernists and deconstructionists specifically language can mean anything, therefor Paul De Man's works could meant entirely different thing of what they seemed to mean (of course this is bullshit, and if meaning was so distorted to this point, then no human agreement over anything could take place ever, and Civilization wouldn't be possible) What you missed at 11:40 is that under postmodern guise people are not just encouraged to follow their own micro interpretation, they are in fact encouraged to deny the possibility of truth itself, and reality for them is nothing more than an illusion pressed by the people in power or the majority of people, and that's why exactly we see nowadays people deny basic biological facts and basic human nature, just because their feelings are not in line with it, and for such instances biology is not meta narrative, it is real and truth exists not everything is just delusion pushed by some people for their interests, of course all these concepts are echoed academically for example we have Linda Hutcheon, who said something in this line, that reality is what the party wants it to be for its own good.

[@TheMediaInsider]

Some really eye-opening points here, thank you for taking the time to leave them! I'll also be sure to check out some of the academics you mentioned. I think you're absolutely right they probably are people that take the idea of post-modernism as Peterson presents it a bit too far, but I think he would agree that in this video he appears to must label everybody with this narrow view of structured society.

[@nurifidei4056]

@@TheMediaInsider it is my pleasure to be in such exchange sir, however i do believe in the postmodern premis that says that different groups often falsify reality and truth for their own needs, but as you have pointed out the loudest postmodern voices (the radicals) take this idea too far and use it as justification to deny the existence of objective reality itself, and i can safely say that I'm bit familiar with such subject since i presented a master thesis about the effects of postmodern narrative on readers, and through extensive readings to many sources like the book In Defense of Realism for Raymond Tallis i deduced that the far fetched postmodern and the post structuralists claims (radical ones) on language and meaning in the literary field, are somehow based only in half truths rather than objective analysis. And i totally agree with you on Peterston's take on postmodernism, because it seems that his criticism should only be pointed to radicals not moderate postmodernists.

[@aliince9372]

Thanks for making this video. It was really insightful and measured. And, now, I feel like I have a better grasp on what Peterson's interpretation of PM is and why it might be flawed.

[@TheMediaInsider]

Glad it was helpful! I'm still learning lots myself, and have learnt a lot from JP, but just find his presentation so hostile

[@aliince9372]

@@TheMediaInsider I have ideas about him, I think he is a good person at his core, but I think that he was traumatised by his early experiences and that's lead him to really cling on hard to a conservative view on things. It's important to remember that his qualifications AND what he is lecturing about publicly now, are two different things. Again, great vid. Thanks.

[@thisguygardens]

thank you.

[@TheMediaInsider]

You, Andy, are most welcome

[@pshehan1]

Postmodernism is certainly not about individualism. It is the foundation of identity politics, which divides people into victims and oppressors. Everyone is assigned to a group or groups, the members of which all have the same interests and agenda. The most important thing about a person is which identity they belong to. Individuals who reject the idea of their assigned group membership are a problem. My understanding of postmodernism predates Peterson, and it does not require that is is a form of redirected Marxism. It is primarily a rejection of enlightenment values and the existence of truth corresponding to an external objective reality, independent of anyone's internal metal state. There is only your truth and my truth, and my 'lived experience'. Data and evidence be damned.

[@Achcautli69]

Thank you for the video, I was thinking the same thing when I listen some of his videos. It always got me thinking that he hate communism and he is very conservative or almost fascist.

[@dmswanson5694]

Agreed.

[@TheMediaInsider]

Hear hear

[@damirregoc8111]

JP is obsessed with that term. And he's using it in a wrong way, very often.

[@TheMediaInsider]

Yeah, that’s what prompted this video, I have no problem with the man personally, in fact I very much respect and admire his intellect, but I totally agree with you on that point

[@alanbarrow7447]

Postmodernism would simultaneously agree and disagree with you on the basis that there is no truth, only interpretation.

[@alciozc3591]

Oh yes She Hulk breaking the 4th wall gotta love that shit

[@nikolatrifunovic394]

A also good video about usage of words from Peterson is done by Prof. Moeller kzbin.info/www/bejne/m3PakIVsia-nb5I. Peterson also commented this video and got an answer kzbin.info/www/bejne/gqGakoaAYtZnnpY. As I understood these two videos, Moeller sad that Peterson him-self is somehow a post-modernist.

[@TheMediaInsider]

Thanks for the recommendations, I’ll be certain to check them out

[@bradklemmer4251]

I do believe you high jacked the term "anarchy," which does not mean chaos or no rules, rather, it means no masters or rulers and therefore no slaves.

[@marcuso5409]

The philosophical core of post modernism is somehow made out to be trivial but it's important because it is what is most appealing and what you see most manifest, just as some have already said with examples like drag queen story time for kids called out as form of child abuse based in objective biological and psychological reality. There are branches of post modern thought that are valuable and useful approaches, however it has mostly been merged with other contradictory ideas in the institutions into a system of belief, now being used as explanation for and justification for rejecting the body, biological reality, and denial/rejection of nature, the greater world beyond the individual. With gender ideology here the criticism is correct and it applies. People have been influenced to retreat into their own ideological shells and then to reinforce the walls by reassurance of their cult. It is held together by obsession with control and so control of information

[@scythermantis]

What is ironic is that Jordan Peterson almost never talks about Baudrillard, only about Foucault and Derrida, and he barely talks about *them* either, only his pantomime-villain constructed images of them, as he's barely even read them, he only gets his ideas from the 'simulation' or 'simulacra' provided by Stephen Hicks who in my opinion is an academic hack--so there's a great irony here isn't there.

[@kenward9449]

Jordan is one giant appeal to emotion.

[@bradfordmccormick8639]

Where does existentialism and even Husserlean phenomenology fit in?

[@bryanmcpherson8702]

Hes reiterates Steven Hicks' book, " Explaining Post Modernism"

[@bath_neon_classical]

Did feel to me that my lived experinces were no good when it came to debating these issues, now i have done a course in literary theory and read a few books but even after hundreds of hours dont feel confident discussing with accedemics, theres always something i havent read which proves that im not only wrong, but stupid, and probably also racist somehow.

[@wickedone4380]

All experiences are lived.

[@bath_neon_classical]

@@wickedone4380 some are lived by other people

[@wickedone4380]

@@bath_neon_classical The experience is still lived.

[@bath_neon_classical]

@@wickedone4380 are you saying that this is bad english because it contains a tautologous statement or is there some deeper truth that i am missing?

[@christopherleary2411]

Thank you for your intelligent and thoughtful presentation. I am not a fan of Jordan Peterson and he just seems perpetually angry. There must be a lot of pain in his past.

[@RonLWilson]

interesting! The way I see (for whatever that is worth) is the premodern religious view didn't quite get it right nor did the modern view and the post modern is an attempt (or maybe best said a last ditch attempt) to fix those elements that weren't quite right and the Jordan Peters of the world are trying to just set the clock back rather than fix what needs fixing.

[@TheAwesomeGingerGuy]

8:18 wrong use of the word “linguist”

[@TheMediaInsider]

Ah crap - What word was I looking for?

[@MrJamieb22]

@@TheMediaInsider orator?

[@JohnSmith-to5ow]

Peterson once said on a rogan podcast years ago, that he found a way to monetize social justice warriors. That's the most insightful thing he's ever said.

[@korbendallas5318]

What I personally like about Peterson: He keeps me on my toes. You can never be sure whether he is profound or wrong at any given moment, so I have to keep attention and can't take anything for granted.

[@fredsanford9442]

I feel that the beating heart of post modernism is the quest for new ideas. The rejection of old things gives room for new untried systems and ideas. I think there is a disregard of the effective quality of the old ideas, because the drive for new things does not require consideration of practical application of the old systems in the real world, and there is no need to explore the potential consequences of new systems prior to their implementation.

[@2msvalkyrie529]

There are NO " new " ideas !!

[@BeardedMi42]

Why do you do a podcast with Jordan Peterson?

[@yolandaquirozsoto438]

Great articulation of Peterson's selective representation and weaponization of postmodernism, Thank you!

[@ceallly]

You need to know Postmoderism's origin and connection with Indenty politics to understand what is happening. The only explanation for its origin I have found is a book by Anthony Chaney called "RunAway: Gregory Bateson, the Double Bind, and the Rise of Ecological Consciousness". Gregory Bateson was present at the "The Congress on Dialectics of Liberation' in 1967 when the black activist Stokely Carmichael used the phrase 'institutional racism'. He argued you could not solve the problems of black people through a structured discussion because the social constructs of language re-inforces the mistreatment of Black people. Carmicheal used Marx's material analysis (the connection with Marx) to compare the distribution of material wealth in Black and White communities. Orthodox Marxists would insist that analysis focuses on the distribution of material resources within the whole community and not differentiate on race. In the type of analysis done by Stokey Carmichael, there is no problem with a large part of the population not having material resources as long as the % of the poor white population is the same as the black and the percentage black population that are millionaires are the same as the per cent of the white population. Managerialism uses a lot of ideas from Marx, Post Modernism and Identity Policies. Problems are best solved by setting goals rather than through discussion. As discussion causes tension between groups in society. There are no meta-narratives where different perspectives are compared and combined to get a better understanding of issues. Instead, goals should be set to solve problems and outcomes are measured by the completion of those goals.

[@pegerockas]

For a better understanding of JP, research how he became, or more clearly, who he was forced to become who his is now. With that, a clearer idea of what he is attempting to define.

[@joemama2499]

Major public figures advocating extremist divisionism has always ended well, right?

[@TheMediaInsider]

Good point 😂😂

[@MindTheHeart]

It is with postmodernism as it is with Islam. There are some good things with Islam and for some muslims Islam is basically about love and peace. However, if you dig down to the core of the matter you find that it is an evil, oppressive system. Peterson sees this so when he talks about the spirit of postmodernism he takes no prisoners. Still, he gives credit to the postmodernists for showing us things like what our brains perceives as reality, namely what matters in stead of simply matter.

[@EyeLean5280]

I prefer David Foster Wallace's critiques of postmodernism because they're not founded in, nor do they stoke hatred. He's great at pointing out PM's limitations and deficiencies without resorting to emotionally-charged hyperbole. But then again, he wasn't interested (in both senses of that word) in building/profiting off of a cult of personality.

[@rcmrcm3370]

I've changed one world in your definition. 'Postmodernism refers to the state of culture where media is "consumed" in such staggering quantities that it has crossed the boundaries into reality itself and hyperreality prevails.'

[@rcmrcm3370]

Peterson spotted a grift and went for it. How's that for Postmodernism rejection of authority, particularly a rather sad authority. Fame corrupts.

[@granillob86]

The best part is when you turn his argument back on him, " Lived experience is not tangible evidence therefore it needs to be discredited" if this were true, then all rhetoric done on material would be discredited and I don't think we can do that, can we? Because material is tangible or not, it is a measure of something (even to say "thing" goes against material) in society, politically or otherwise. At least that's how I thought of it! Genius!

[@gregchavez1534]

Coming to this very late, the "lived experience" comment was the only aspect of this video that made me wince. Another way to think of lived experiences is eyewitness testimony which has been shown to be highly subjective and error prone. Of course, we haven't banned eyewitness testimony, far from it, but it is regarded with such serious skepticism now that many criminal convictions in the US have been overturned that relied predominantly on what a person claimed to have been told by their physical senses alone. So the opposite of a lived experience isn't elitist membership, it's objective understanding, which is to say information that we can agree is true, *irrespective* of our lived experiences. So we should remain wary of accepting testimony that stands alone. We should be defensive and suspicious, if not hostile, to testimony that flies in the face of information that can be more broadly understood and independently verified. But moreover, we *always* should be aware of the context of the testimony. If we're reacting to a work of art, our individual responses to it matter enormously. This brings me back to the video which overall should be commended for disentangling Peterson's political critique from a broad philosophical movement with many progenitors and progeny. Nevertheless, it erred by inadvertently espousing a political view -- if lived experiences are rejected, then the rich and the elite and the powerful will smother us! -- that happens to be the exact kind of simplistic claptrap that Peterson purports to oppose in his wild-eyed anti-postmodernist way.

[@ripwolfe]

JP once gave entertaining lecture hall speeches - there is no doubt he has a formidable academic mind. But as his cult of personality has grown, it seems to me that with the opportunities to address larger and larger audiences, he decided celebrity means more than academia.

[@TheMediaInsider]

Yeah I think that’s a very fair assessment, and almost a natural consequence of having such a large audience is to give them what they want, and I think in modern media that means controversy

[@caglabatur]

Exactly! I used to enjoy his online lectures 10 years ago as a psychology student ...

[@lucaiswallace]

Thanks for the insight! Hume was a modernist who was very anti-conservative thought. It's silly to apply modermity or post-modernity to political viewpoints I'm not a fan of postmodernism, but it's because I think reality is more than entirely subjective. I could and would never agree with Jordan Peterson's point of view. Postmodernism is a school of philosophy like Plato's "world of forms" or Kiekegaard's "dread". It's something to be discussed and prooven or refuted on the merits of its arguments. That's what philosophy is.

[@FlashdogFul28]

Perhaps you should speak to him about it. Invite him to talk on your channel.

[@timothydelling5791]

Failing to understand that the new left is based in postmodernism, which is what Dr. Peterson is addressing negates all the pseudointellectual comments and dialogue. Pretending this is a neutral academic post is so much fun to watch.

[@Ajay-pz9ms]

Oh wow, you are extremely charitable to Jordan Peterson!!! I personally view postmodernism as a descriptive philosophy instead of a prescriptive one. More an explanation of the current world but then requiring you to create your own narrative. Ie the responsibility is yours. Anyway nice video, shame your message doesn't sell tickets

[@TheMediaInsider]

Thank you - I'll always try to be a balanced as possible but realise that isn't really possible.

[@hillson418]

​​@@TheMediaInsider Wow, I am flabbergasted because my Media teacher just called him a Nazi and moved on!

[@melissa_rittenhouse]

Great video! I've been familiar with Peterson's description of postmodernism for a while. After watching some film analysis videos that described postmodernism differently than I thought, I started watching your videos. I understand the philosophy Peterson describes, although I can see how it's at odds with your understanding of postmodernism. After watching both this video and the Peterson speech your reference, I have one question: the idea of individuality vs group identity. One of Peterson's first remarks is that the post-modernists don't believe in individuality and put more emphasis on group identity. I can understand why he draws this conclusion because of postmodernism's Marxist roots and because of branches of postmodernism, such as critical theory. However, this perspective is at odds with your belief that postmodernism is more individualistic, emphasizing lived experiences and what an individual believes to be true in a world where we have shown many conflicting viewpoints. Your perspective is also accurate, especially from the standpoint of postmodernism in entertainment. So, does postmodernism stress individual experience over group identity, and is this issue heavily debated?

[@ceallly]

The only explanation for Post Moderdernsim origin I have found is a book by Anthony Chaney called "RunAway: Gregory Bateson, the Double Bind, and the Rise of Ecological Consciousness". As I said in my own reply to this video. Gregory Bateson was present at the "The Congress on Dialectics of Liberation' in 1967 when the black activist Stokely Carmichael used the phrase 'institutional racism'. He argued you could not solve the problems of black people through a structured discussion because the social constructs of language re-inforces the mistreatment of Black people. Carmicheal used Marx's material analysis (the connection with Marx) to compare the distribution of material wealth in Black and White communities. Orthodox Marxists would insist that analysis stay focused on the distribution of material resources and not differentiate on race. In the type of analysis done by Stokey Carmichael, there is no problem with a large part of the population not having material resources as long as the % of the poor white population is the same as the black and the percentage black population that are millionaires are the same as the per cent of the white population. I get your point on the individual and group identity. Gregory Bateson was the husband of Marget Mead. Both Mead and Beatson's work is important for developing a branch of science called System Theory. System Theory is the basis for Artificial Intelligence (AI). Abstraction is a concept in System Theory where information can be abstracted to create different summaries or views. The individual is one abstraction in society. Identity groups are another abstraction or way to view society. In System Theory, Meta Narratives or frameworks combine different perspectives. Post Modernism suggests this is not possible or desirable.

[@Blady99]

He got his understanding of postmodernism from a book that misunderstood it. Sad really. He also tried commenting on Carefree Wandering’s channel and got something basic wrong. I think it was saying someone else’s name when it was obviously Baudrillard.

[@piperpan5516]

If you read this maybe you can affirm or correct the statement I'm about to make: That post-modernism is in some way everything, it must be ALL inclusive, simply because it describes the world of today. It doesn't necessarily take a particular stance, we are all within a much larger picture of perspectives, experience and activity. It's not that the meaning of everything is relative or lacking certainty of meaning, it's that in one way or another, everything is meaningful. I found the initial post-modern video you made to be excellent for me, in terms of it describing our current post-modern reality. I think postmodernism can be inclusive of tradition in that it draws from the past, it can respect and include what is 'good' about tradition, yet challenge the elements of old ideas when they fail to change and develop. Regarding Jordan Peterson. He comes across as a classic hypocrite, frankly. I listen to the accusations he makes and the very ignorant generalizations about people. What comes to mind is the famous warning Jesus taught regarding being aware of how one goes about Judging others. Matthew 7 'Judge not, that ye be not Judged. For with what Judgement ye Judge, ye shall be Judged, and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again'. There are some areas he has great insight. There are many others that he simply doesn't know about, he is on the outside judging in a very negative demonizing manner.

[@NohaKitsune]

love your kitchen tho

[@CzaristMatt]

Hmmm. Watched your other video and drew similar conclusions to JP. Then watched this video and became confused. But I am not you, and you are simply a vessel to help guide me.

[@rickwyant]

But there is a reality that no one can deny.

[@blueberry3168]

I wonder if you have changed your opinion of Dr Peterson, considering what is happening now one year later.

[@vitorsantos2873]

Perterson has proved that he doesn't understand Marx at all in the famous debate with Zizek.

[@mdhj67]

Post-modernism is a handy label for anything we don't like.

[@illxplicit07]

People should wonder why postmodernism and unhappiness seem to correlate. They should also wonder why the postmodernists are so confident and willing to impose their worldview on others while calling it "progress." Look around, it's happening everywhere. Yet, society is regressing in the midst of this language. Progress is being lost. That is why so many people associate postmodernism with malevolence. They're making things worse.

[@TheMediaInsider]

That’s a fair argument

[@mentomuncherVEVO]

It's not imposing a worldview to allow other people to do what they want without hurting others, it would be imposing a worldview to force everyone to be gay or trans however allowing those groups to exist isn't imposing anything. Think of it like this: Being Gay = Good Being Straight = Good Forced to be Gay = Bad Forced to be Straight = Bad

[@illxplicit07]

@@mentomuncherVEVO That's what people like you say, and then you applaud when trans women dominate in women's sports. Or you'll casually tell women to use the family bathroom if they're uncomfortable seeing a penis in the women's locker room. Because you think that's what being a good person is.

[@user-g38fib48]

​@@mentomuncherVEVOif only it were that simple. They are indeed imposing worldviews upon our most vulnerable; our children. Often times behind the parents backs with nothing they can do about it.

[@justinludeman8424]

So, what do you think about other analysts of postmodernism's reverberations in extant society such as James Lindsay, Gad Saad, or Kathleen Stock for example? Can we draw a verifiable thread from Marxism, through postmodernism, poststructuralism, feminism, intersectionalism and CRT and Queer-Gender-Trans ideology? Is perhaps your analysis too simplistic and naive about the nefarious aspects of the aforementioned ideologies or philosophical streams? I'm not being combative, merely very curious. In my readings of Foucault, Derrida, Baudrillard, and Judith Butler among others I see highly problematic, at times incoherent sophistry at play. It's almost as if they champion deconstruction and destruction for its own sake rather than for any valid moral or utilitarian reasons. Curious altogether and still undecided... So much to absorb and contrast. Perhaps JP throws the baby out with the bathwater in his wholesale dismissal amd denunciation of postmodernism and in doing so misses a salient point - that postmodernism and its allied strains of thought have been adopted, transformed, and reinterpreted in ways that may be questionable as somewhat separate ideologies(?). Thank you, I enjoyed your analysis.

[@adventureswithlils4331]

Peterson definitely is not a traditional Christian. He is much more concerned with Traditional Narrative in and of itself from a psychological perspective and it’s application to Psychoanalysis from a Jungian and Nietsche conception Peterson got his understanding of Postmodernism from Stephen Hicks

[@alanrobertson9790]

If post-modernism was an arcane philosophy of interest only to academics nobody would bother about it. Post-modernism needs to be assessed by what the real world effects are and that is largely through the culture wars, so its not unreasonable that Peterson concentrates on that aspect. The reason it is objectionable, and yes inflammatory, is that it carries its influence via elites in positions of power such as academics, media, human resources and even legal institutions thus bypassing the democratic process where it is seldom understood or supported by most people. The reason micro-narratives are absurd is that reality comprises of the common experience intersected by all, lived experience previously known as anecdotal should be weighted accordingly and it does not have to be reasonable. I think something therefore my view has to be taken into account may not be reasonable. The pinnacle of this absurdity is the trans-debate where the inner, even transient, feelings of individuals wishing they were a different sex have to take precedence over the reality of the many who know that there are only two biological sexes. Laws need to be defined by acts which can be characterised by objective actions, not the perceived offences of victims. We cannot have laws where actions are made criminal according to the whim of some individual. The fundamental flaw in post-modernism is that in giving weight to micro-narrative rather than collective reality it removes the distinction between the subjective and the objective. Without this distinction there is no need for reason or tests for truth. Probably the daftest statement in the video is at time index 14.10 mins. "Lived experience is not tangible evidence therefore it should be discredited prohibits anyone without a degree, (or masters or doctorate!) from entering the debate so its elitist". No it just means that you have to be capable of reasoning and determining whether its true or not. No qualifications, let alone advanced qualifications are needed for that. Simply being an adult should suffice, as is deemed necessary to vote or jury service. Not to have that qualification would remove the requirement for the lived experience to be reasonable. It needs to be tested, as do all ideas.

[@rickwyant]

I think Peterson is saying that a painting of a can of soup or colors splashed randomly or a painting made with feces is not art.

[@TheSSEssesse]

“Very measured critque of JP. I’m going to use this as an opportunity to vomit my trembling emotions in the comment section.”

[@wcf3x]

I just stumbled across this about a year after it was first posted. I then went back and viewed the original "Postmodernism for Beginners". What is presented in this and the previous video display a rather appalling lack of knowledge about postmodernism (or for that matter the "modernism" that postmodernists are opposed to). As described by the presenter in his first video "modernism" starts sometime around the beginning of the 20th century or sometime in the 19th at the earliest. "Modernism" as it is generally understood refers to the intellectual and philosophical values associated with the "Enlightenment" or the "Age of Reason" developed primarily in Western Europe in the 17th and 18th centuries. (Your know, stuff like the pursuit of knowledge obtained by means of reason and the evidence of the senses, and ideals such as natural law, liberty, progress, toleration, fraternity, constitutional government, etc., etc.). To get some idea of what postmodernism actually is and why intellectuals like not only Jordan Peterson but also extremely left-wing/non-conservative thinkers such as Noam Chomsky, are highly critical of it, one should actually try reading a book written by somebody other than Baudrillard. A good starting point is "Explaining Postmodernism" from the philosopher Stephen R.C. Hicks. Although it is doubtful anyone will read this due to my being late to the party, but any other late arrivals here should be warned how misleading these presentations are.

[@timothyfeagles880]

Although I agree with Peterson, I appreciate the nuance you add. Everything is on a spectrum and it seems to me his weaponization attempts to target those who’ve taken postmodernism to a place that does actually infringe upon the rights of others. One caveat to my comment about agreeing with Peterson is, I disagree with his claim postmodernists, “have no appreciation..”. Because-since we are here and now; Living is this society the only experience we have is that which is postmodernism. So, essentially Peterson-himself is a reflection of culture. Society appears to be trending toward helper-individuality and group-fracturing. So many things he puts out have been meme’d (like the lobsters) fit underneath this umbrella. It’s our reality and there is no way everyone is unappreciative..

[@mattwa33186]

Late to the party here... Petersen is a great communicator in that he's able to make people feel like he's given them a target for their unhappiness. He is not great at communicating actual concepts in a relatively objective way. And he isn't interested in doing that. The pushback against postmodernism in less vitriolic circles is easy to explain - PM doesn't just do away with grand narratives. It does away with all Enlightenment values - objective truth, free speech, etc... It no longer matters what people say - the only thing that matters is what each individual hears. They believe the entire universe was a chaotic mass until we structured it with language, and since the interpretation of each word is entirely up to the individual no on can tell another person anything about reality. What Peterson is really mad at is the extension of postmodernism, "woke culture" or "critical studies" or whatever they want to call it, which combines postmodernism with Hegel/Kant/Marx dialectical thought to create a world where everything that happens can be described in terms of an oppressor doing something to the oppressed. They believe that an experiment conducted by by a straight white cisgender man will return different results than the same experiment conducted by a gay black woman because the differences in their relationships to power make it impossible for them to arrive at the same truth, so it's the most anti-science philosophy we've seen in the last 300 years. It's more like Scientology than any real philosophy, but less rational and optimistic.

[@everyonesalama4447]

I’m studying postmodernism at the moment and your really helping me get a grasp on such a broad subject, thank you. Also thanks for showing us what it isn’t, very interesting

[@sircrackboi]

if you are really studying postmodernism then you should read books and not watch youtube videos. Adopting others opinions doesnt make you an expert in a field

[@everyonesalama4447]

@@sircrackboi tbh I don't make a habit out of getting my education off KZbin, being at uni I luckily have access to academic papers also. Interesting to hear peoples take on it though, maybe it's counterproductive but it seems to help. Its like you can read a load of books and nearly have a grasp on it, then you watch a few KZbin videos and tiny bits of the jigsaw are filled in, then you listen to a podcast and a bit more is understood, then you go back to the book and the concept is becoming more clear with every piece of information. But yes you are right, youtube is not the place for an education. Lots of biased, political, business, religious....etc agendas going on

[@RighteousNacho]

Interesting how every one of you content creators promoting Skill Share all seem to learn water coloring with wording from a similar script. Sounds pretty simulacrum-esque to me. 😉🙄

[@vitorsantos2873]

"Add fuel to the fire" sell more books.