What’s the best value flour for making vegan meat?

[@BoldFlavorVegan]

I posted a vlog with more detail, diving a bit deeper into the subject, numbers, and sharing more thoughts about this topic over on my Patreon. If you want more info, are interested in behind-the-scenes news/updates, and want to support the channel consider becoming a member: patreon.com/boldflavorvegan Vlog link: www.patreon.com/posts/new-video-update-79008171?Link& Please note the vlog is not as high production as my KZbin videos and are more like a livestream-style video!

[@TrggrWarning]

How TF do we dry the vital wheat gluten to turn it into powder?

[@TrggrWarning]

Also the starch

[@TheeBurgerDude]

dude, if you become the vegan ethan chlebowski I am super behind that idea!! Great video!

[@nekotokoara758]

I was also getting total Ethan Chlebowski vibes from him! I would love that so much 😍

[@BoldFlavorVegan]

Ha! That would be BIG shoes to fill! I'll keep digging into these topics for sure :)

[@Atheism-And-Normative-Ethics]

This guy seems more genuine and less skeletons in the closet than Ethan. Ethan seems like he's late to it but will eventually show up as a feature of the metoo movement.

[@tamcon72]

Actually shocked by the total lack of distinction between the BRM and Anthony's vital wheat gluten results. Bob is a highway robber! The best results I've ever gotten were from a bulk store's vital wheat gluten, but that's a [clutches synthetic pearls!] ConAgra product that I'd like to avoid, so when I replace my BRM vital wheat gluten, I'll do it with Anthony's. I cannot summon the energy to make WTF seitan, but I'm glad to see the regular sack flour results for when I'm able to try it. Thanks for putting in all this effort to make us better informed!

[@BoldFlavorVegan]

I will say that I am not sensitive to the 'wheat taste" that many people talk about, so YMMV in the taste between the two! As I say in the video found almost no difference between the products.

[@laurakatelin4825]

Bob's is actually cheaper for me since I shop at Wegmans! It's $7 for 20 oz right now which comes down to $12.37 per kg. And the only place I could get Anthony's from is online which is the same price as in the video.

[@tamcon72]

@@laurakatelin4825 Huh, I just bought a bag of Bob's at my local Whole Foods because I forgot to order the Anthony's, and it was almost 9 bucks. I'm going to have to price the Anthony's out with shipping. Thanks for telling me this!

[@duolingoowl8294]

what the hell is conagra?

[@tamcon72]

@@duolingoowl8294 It's a gigantic agribusiness multinational corporation.

[@AV57]

Dude, I just made a big ball of resting seitan dough and put a towel over it, and then I get this video notification from you. Haha

[@BoldFlavorVegan]

I must have felt it in the force! Hope it turned out awesome.

[@AV57]

@@BoldFlavorVegan Oh, it did. It was my first time trying to make a seafood-flavored seitan with a nori and kelp broth.

[@BoldFlavorVegan]

@@AV57 Nice! I used nori in my beef stew recipe video to mimic anchovies (I veganized a Kenji recipe) and it was awesome. Lots of great applications for that ingredient.

[@CraigMcArthur]

Wow! I am lucky. In the UK VWG is available for £5 per kilo (about 8 Can$ or 6 US$). I will not be complaining anymore.

[@BoldFlavorVegan]

Woah! That is a good price. The cost has inflated quite a bit here, unfortunately.

[@aninha5185]

I love watching these type of videos ❤😊

[@victormoraes8295]

I've been away from KZbin for a few weeks, so only now I got to watch the two latest videos: loved both of them and loved the new haircut 🥰🥰🥰

[@BoldFlavorVegan]

Welcome back, haha. Glad you liked the new videos. Working hard on the next one now :)

[@victormoraes8295]

@@BoldFlavorVegan ❤

[@motivationalcorpse8860]

Great video, I guess the value ratios skew if you're making use of the left over starch water for facon though. Half the time now, I'm making wtf seitan just for the starch water!

[@BoldFlavorVegan]

That is definitely another consideration! You'd have to figure out if you get more starch from the different types of flour and then factor that into your value vs cost decision. Can you share your fave recipes for using the starch water?

[@motivationalcorpse8860]

​@@BoldFlavorVegan @Bold Flavor Vegan My go to is the bacon recipe from 'The Pot Thickens' with a couple of tweaks (beetroot powder instead of wine). Would love to see your take on it, especially if it's anywhere near as good as your ham🙂

[@blahdelablah]

Thanks for the video. Was interested in whether the best value per kg for the WTF method beat the best vital wheat gluten option or vice versa, can you share what the prices were per kg?

[@BoldFlavorVegan]

It is really difficult to compare WTF to VWG unfortunately as many VWG recipes use different ingredients to "cut" the gluten. For instance, I use tofu here, which increased the weight and price of the recipe, so it is dependent on the specific recipe you choose and the value you personally get from the labor shortcut of using VWG. I go into a lot more detail about this specific topic in this video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/mHXZnaekiq1_sKc

[@blahdelablah]

@@BoldFlavorVegan Thanks for your answer. What about if you don't add extra ingredients to "cut" the gluten? Is cutting the gluten necessary?

[@BoldFlavorVegan]

@@blahdelablah For sure and good question. You have to cut the VWG with water at the very least to activate the gluten. I forgot to mention that issue. Every VWG recipe is different with the amount of water you add, so you can't weigh out the final cooked product of VWG and directly compare to WTF. Also, we already know the gluten content of VWG as we know how much we put in. If you put in 100g of VWG in the beginning, in the end, you still have 100g of VWG after the cook but the hydration and other cutting ingredients in the end can vary wildly depending on bake vs simmer vs steam. Hopefully this makes sense!

[@blahdelablah]

@@BoldFlavorVegan Thank you for sharing your insight into this.

[@DanteVelasquez]

Thank you for this. I always use King Arthur bread flour because of the higher gluten, and bob's red mill because it's always locally available. Every time I pass those huge cheap bags of all purpose flour in Walmart I always have had a pang wondering if it was worth it to try LOL. I'm with you though in that all that work rinsing off the starch I want more gluten per batch, plus when I make Italian or Asian noodles from scratch I always prefer them with king Arthur's bread flour so I don't mind paying a little more for it 🙂

[@BoldFlavorVegan]

Glad this answered (or began to answer) a question you had! I felt the same, so I decided it was worth a trial. Depending on what I'm making, I may switch to the store brand bread flour. I'll have to think about it more. On another note - I need to get into noodle making. It has been on my list for SO long. Do you have any beginner recipes that could be done in a day?

[@DanteVelasquez]

@@BoldFlavorVegan Absolutely. I highly recommend a pasta maker to thin out and cut the dough for ease and convenience, but all of that can of course be done by hand. After combining the dough it's best to let them rest for at least an hour, and more time off you have it. I also find that bread flour makes a much springier noodle, and asian recipes list that as the recommended flour. Italian pasta: 300 grams flour, 150 grams water 1/2 tsp salt, 2 tsps olive oil. Japanese Ramen: 250 grams bread flour, 120 grams water, 3 grams salt, 3 grams baking soda. For both mix all dry ingredients together well first, then make a well in the center, add the wet ingredients, and mix until well combined. Adjust dough if too sticky or too dry by adding more flour or more water. Knead to a smooth dough about 5-10 minutes and allow to rest covered in plastic wrap or in a bowl with a towel for 1 hour minimum (more if you have the time). Next roll the dough out thin dusting with flour to stop the sticking, pass through the pasta machine lowering the setting as you go to the desired thinness, and cut. Cook in boiling and salted water for 3-5 minutes, when the noodles float to the top they are done. Enjoy as there is nothing like fresh noodles!

[@dontaemasciorini8702]

I'm stoked you put this to the test. I've been debating this for a while now.

[@BoldFlavorVegan]

I've seen a lot of debate on this topic, so thought it might help some people out :)

[@deidre19801]

Thanks for doing this research! I am happy to help taste any time!

[@deliamak]

I’m wondering if Kroger actually gets the exact flour from King Arthur? Private brands usually cost less because they order mass quantities and repackage in their custom bags / boxes. 🤷‍♀️

[@BoldFlavorVegan]

This is a good question and something that needs to be researched. I just ran out of time. Given the different results of the gluten contents from my little test here, my guess is that they are different flours.

[@Lamar-kh7lw]

Great video again. It’s really nice to know that using another flour still works.

[@BoldFlavorVegan]

Thanks so much - yeah, you can't go wrong it seems, unless you use something with crazy low gluten content.

[@JacKAsterisK]

Great research! One thing that would be nice though is seeing a graph of all the resulting price per kg methods.

[@BoldFlavorVegan]

Thanks! It's not a graph, but here is the spreadsheet I used to calculate everything: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Yc7F7v-eYx2GkNt28BoixMnI4LjyQX5HOCRlZzW8XIk/edit?usp=sharing While the math is fun, I think the big takeaway should be to buy whatever you personally value when you consider cost vs labor. I value high yield for my labor and I'm willing to pay a premium for that, so I'll be sticking to KA BF. But if someone wanted the cheapest gluten possible, then maybe the Store Brand AP would be the most valuable to them :) Thanks for watching!

[@JacKAsterisK]

​@@BoldFlavorVegan Oh cool, thanks! I was more referring to the difference between the WTF method and using bread/AP flour but still awesome of you to provide that! That take is a good one, I'd draw the same conclusions. It was more of a feeling that the video left me hanging, but not a big deal, the video was great, thanks!

[@basfinnis]

Thanks for the info mate. Very helpful 👍 I'll have a look at the flours on the UK.

[@BoldFlavorVegan]

Glad you found it helpful! I'm really interested in knowing the costs in the UK and how they compare here.

[@drunkbunny94]

As a more mathy person that cooky one as soon as you showed the cost of the flours for the wash method i figured that it wasnt going to be worth the cost since going from 11.7% to 12.7% is a 8.5% increase in yeild (thats the extra 100g per kg you mentioned including water and some carbs) and seeing that it cost 8.99 instead of 6.49 thats a 38.5% increase. If you want more yeild at the end you can always just start with more all purpose flour. But yeah i dont see myself doing the wash method any time soon, its very labour intensive and looks like it would be a pain to track for calorie counting since you wash out starch and add water to the dough and you'd be weighing the final product which would be less accurate. With VWG i can measure all the ingredients before hand and divide everything by the number of portions easy.

[@carollen5601]

Hi, good video. Is it worth buying Vital Wheat Gluten when Bread Flour can give the same results? Is Vital Wheat Gluten just a time and labor saver?

[@BoldFlavorVegan]

Glad you liked the video! It is really difficult to compare WTF to VWG, unfortunately. I did a video on answering roughly this question. It might help answer this better than I can in a comment: kzbin.info/www/bejne/mHXZnaekiq1_sKc Hope that helps!

[@carollen5601]

@@BoldFlavorVegan /// thank you I will check that link, funny how some foods can be so controversial. You are doing a good job with any dough, it must have taken a lot experimenting in the wee hours of the morning! eh Take care as I go off into the night doing another drum roll to the Seitan gods.

[@nijinokanata111]

I love the comparison videos! Economic, empirical, and delicious!

[@BoldFlavorVegan]

Glad you like them! Thanks for watching :)

[@Krylovix]

You sir are awesome! Thanks for showing this

[@BoldFlavorVegan]

For sure! Glad you enjoyed. Lots more videos like this to come this year!

[@Vo_d_kontra_o_norMAL]

Can you help me Please WHAT ARE THE BEST FLAVORING PRODUCTS FOR SEITAN ? i mean that i want only one simple thing to put the meat flavor instead of a group of specific hard to find little things ! YOU KNOWN ! the flavors i loking for are (ham/sausage) cow meat And peperoni

[@kennethmaese4622]

Excellent informational video 🎉

[@BoldFlavorVegan]

Glad it was helpful!

[@jayess3604]

Great video as always. Thanks.

[@BoldFlavorVegan]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@Shuggies]

I Love this guy's content... Thanks ✌️

[@BoldFlavorVegan]

Glad you enjoy it!

[@Travybear1989]

Thank you for this great video, vital wheat gluten is a staple in my wife and I's pantry and this is excellent information! Can't purchase pre-made vegan foods and not go bankrupt these days!

[@See_you_in_heaven]

You are a great educator. I am new to vegan cooking, I love it and cannot believe I didn’t do this years ago. Are you on Instagram?

[@BoldFlavorVegan]

Thanks!! And yes I am :) instagram.com/mike_trabert/

[@brekerr]

be interested in the yeild differences between gluten flour and bread flour.

[@nellier3468]

Is there a difference between the washed flour and the gluten in texture and flavor?

[@juliedesnick7401]

Thank you. Good to know

[@BoldFlavorVegan]

Glad it was helpful!

[@whittsays]

I need assistance using VWG in cookies. I've found this cookie that only uses Anthony's Vital Wheat Gluten as the flour in the cookie. When I attempt difference variations, the result is usually the same -- the cookies are stretchy and seitan esque. Do you have a tips to use vital wheat gluten to make cookies but for them to maintain a cookie like texture?

[@Scotty-BK]

I am here for the puns… also, fantastic work and thank you!

[@Soifdesang9]

Great video, but here are the BIG questions: 1)when all is said and done, WHICH method gives you the most finished weight of seitan per dollar (including add-ins)?? and 2) which taste & texture was better, WTF or VWG???

[@BoldFlavorVegan]

Unfortunately, the only way to do this is to calculate the cost of an individual VWG recipe and then compare as they vary wildly. For this reason there is no universal answer. For instance, I used tofu in this recipe which increased the price, but I've made seitan with chickpea flour, blended mushrooms, all sorts of things that cost different price points. Rarely is only VWG used, it is usually cut with something else. Comparing WTF and VWG is sometimes apples and oranges re cost/technique as I go into more detail in this video here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/mHXZnaekiq1_sKc

[@lysdefrance]

How to you get rid of wheat smell from wheat gluten dough?

[@whittsays]

Hi. I need help with baking while using vital wheat gluten / gluten flour. I am trying to make a dupe for this protein cookie I purchased but my cookies keep coming out either too bread like or too gummy / stretchy textured. I've tried modifying the amount of egg and such but I'm not finding the right ratio. Any suggestions of trying to get a cookie like texture using the following ingredients? Gluten Flour, Brown Erythritol, White Erythritol, Soybean Oil, Sugar Free Dark Chocolate, Sunflower Lecithin, Monk Fruit Extract, Madagascar Bourbon Vanilla Beans, Eggs, Water, Vanilla Extract, Pink Himalayan Salt, Baking Soda, Baking Powder

[@dugldoo]

Nice work! My Bob's Red Mill whole wheat package (my local Dillons (Kroger) often has it on sale) says 7 grams protein per 38 oz (18%) compared to my King Arthur bread flour package at 4 gm per 30 oz. (13%). Have you tried the washed flour method with a quality brand of high protein whole wheat?

[@BoldFlavorVegan]

I don’t think that WTF would as the whole wheat would hinder gluten formation - but I’ve never tried it! Not sure how good the texture would be either.

[@pleinairr]

Decent video, but I would have liked to have seen your numbers. I tried to do the math myself, but there wasn't enough information in the video (e.g. price of the store flour brands) to work it out. Also, it'd be nice if you directly compared the cost of the WTF and VWG methods as well, although it is a bit harder since you also have to take into account the cost of whatever you're cutting the VWG with, like the tofu in this case. By my calculations, assuming a VERY generous 1.5kg yield per kg VWG, the Anthony's was 20% more $ per unit yield, and that's not even accounting for the dilutant.

[@BoldFlavorVegan]

You're right on about the VWG. Almost every recipe adds something else to cut the gluten flour, so you have to account for the ingredient and the cost of that ingredient, which could be very different for everyone depending on where you live or what you use. For instance, I added tofu here, so that ramped the cost of this specific recipe but the goal was only a taste test so see if there was a difference. For a quick ball-park you could just find the cost of a serving by finding the cost of the VWG you're using in a recipe and dividing by the recipe's yield. Regarding the flour for WTF, I had a hard time talking about this concisely in the video where it wasn't confusing or boring, but in the future for videos like this, I'll show a screen cap so those who want to dig into the numbers can pause and do so. With that said, here the spreadsheet I used to calculate cost per serving of gluten (cost of seasonings were not included): docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Yc7F7v-eYx2GkNt28BoixMnI4LjyQX5HOCRlZzW8XIk/edit?usp=sharing In the end, it really comes down to what you can get in your area and what you value. If you value paying the least, then the cheapest AP might be the most valuable to you. Like I said, I like the KA Bread Flour as I get the most gluten per wash and I don't mind paying the extra so I can cut down on the amount of labor.

[@pleinairr]

@@BoldFlavorVegan Thanks a lot for the spreadsheet! Mine looked pretty much exactly the same, just with some missing numbers. :) For sure, it'll be very much dependent on where you live. I have to order my VWG from amazon, and the prices can vary quite a bit even on a month to month basis. That said, just from plugging some guestimate yield numbers into a spreadsheet myself, it was pretty apparent that VWG was going to be quite a bit more costly. I guess that makes sense since VWG is still a bit of a specialty product, especially compared to something as ubiquitous as AP flour. What I didn't realize was just how much cheaper the store brand flours were going to be. I certainly wasn't expecting it'd turn out to be half the cost of the name brand per unit yield. Overall, it's a topic I'd thought about before, but seeing the actual numbers really helps clear up some misconceptions. Definitely some food for thought! Thanks!

[@kefirheals7383]

Being new to "homemade Seitan" but wanting to give it a try - is it vital to do the "wash the flour" method? In another one of your videos, where you made Gyros, you didn't wash the flour in the demo? So, I'm wondering do I follow that video method, or do I have to do the wash method? Arrrggghh. Sorry.

[@xotre1]

Can you do a comparison comparing Organic flours and Organic vital wheat gluten?

[@BoldFlavorVegan]

Maybe one day! Good idea. I think this is the first step in a longer research project, so I'll add this to the list. So many flours out there!

[@ivania1234567]

Have you done a research about seitan? If it's healthy or not??

[@susanb453]

Which tasted better, wtf or vwg? Which had better texture wtf or vwg? Thank you for this video.

[@BoldFlavorVegan]

I don't really like to compare WTF and VWG directly, to me it is a little bit of an apple oranges situation because the techniques are so different. I do a deep dive into why in this video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/mHXZnaekiq1_sKc

[@carolynblakeney966]

This kind of inquiry warrants more effort from the vegan seitan making community. As in, if you have only X brand available to you, how do you maximize flavor and yield? The journey of a thousand miles begins with one step...

[@BoldFlavorVegan]

Yes! Lot's of work to be done, this is just the first step. The baking community gets into this much detail with their product, so I thought it was time to start tackling this question.

[@Brian-bw3uu]

Hilarious. I was just on Amazon scrolling through all the flours trying to figure out what was the most cost-effective for seitan. I shoulda just come here first 😄

[@ThePotThickens]

Great test. The yield for KA bread flour surprised me. That pushed the value up. But was that significant extra weight just due to water? Maybe it hydrates more (fresher?) Not sure. So many questions. FYI - You should show the comparison in price to chicken. ;)

[@BoldFlavorVegan]

I thought about showing the price comparison vs chicken, but there are so many prices and types (unfortunately) that I wasn't sure what would be a reasonable comparison. I washed each for the same amount of time and let the raw glutens rest and drain overnight to get rid of as much hydration as possible, but no doubt, there was still some in there. A +50%~ gluten yield from 1kg for the KA BF surprised me too since it is only 12.7% gluten advertised, so there must be other stuff in there (starch/water/ash content/anything else the manufacturing process left over). However, this does track with the other flours I compared. In the end, I think it is a labor vs cost decision for each person. The Store Brand Bread Flour is a really good middle ground for that.

[@ThePotThickens]

@@BoldFlavorVegan A while ago I did some tests with 13% bread flour. I was actually testing different wash amounts, but I weighed everything and for the right texture this is the result: 100 g flour, 60 g water to make the dough Raw gluten yield after washing: 46 g Seitan yield after simmering: 58 g Washing less resulted in slightly more weight (52 g raw, 62 g cooked). The texture was a bit soft - too much starch left. Washing more resulted in less mass with a rubbery texture. I estimate that the best sestina was about 22-25% protein, ~5-10% starch and the rest water. But this was only one trial. I think I need to repeat this in triplicate to determine any error bars.

[@BoldFlavorVegan]

This is great data. I wish there was a way to better measure/control for the wash besides timing it. Any ideas? One thing I considered for this was adding 00 flour to the test flours as it has a different composition of glutenin and gliadin than the others (from what I can tell) so I'm curious about the taste/texture of the final product. It sounds cost prohibitive, but maybe it is worth it's own test?

[@ThePotThickens]

@@BoldFlavorVegan The washing is always the tricky part and I think it all comes down to experience as you feel the dough. I want to try to correlate the wash with the visual appearance of the liquid that weeps out of the seitan - trying to pin down the right cloudiness amount of the starch that indicates the correct amount. I am pretty sure the 00 refers to the fineness of the milling, not necessarily the protein content of the grain being used. So, I would expect that different brands of 00 would not all be the same. Not sure if it's worth it. I get a lot of questions about using whole wheat flour. To be honest, I've never tried it. But I always suggest that if people want to do so, they get the finest grind possible. Do you have any experience with that?

[@gustavogomez3286]

Great!!!

[@BoldFlavorVegan]

🙌🏻

[@Oriansenshi]

I might have missed it in the video but what was the better cost to gluten ratio? Using vital wheat gluten or wtf method?

[@BoldFlavorVegan]

WTF will (almost) always be cheaper than VWG but it is hard to compare apples to apples as VWG has a wide range of other proteins that are added, like tofu. Here is the math behind the experiment if you're interested: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Yc7F7v-eYx2GkNt28BoixMnI4LjyQX5HOCRlZzW8XIk/edit?usp=sharing

[@Oriansenshi]

@@BoldFlavorVegan thanks for sharing that, it was very eye opening!

[@di_nwflgulf3547]

Good vid....WTF is my way 98.999, vital is just to save time.... AP store is my go to 😋

[@PeaProtein22]

Why hasn’t anyone done a hybrid between WTF and VWG? Why wash away the starches when you can simply add flour to VWG?

[@BoldFlavorVegan]

I've never tried it, but I'm sure you could layer VWG strips into a WTF roast.

[@Dave_en]

The best value flour according to me is all purpose flour from discount stores. The flour is bleached, giving white and soft gluten. I like to add soy chunks powder in small amounts for better water retention, texture and flavour. Yesterday I was successful in making seitan chicken drumstick which looks exactly like real one. No one can identify unless they take a bite and find out a popsicle instead of bone.😂😂😂

[@vicekwad8537]

Did I miss it or did you not compare WTF to gluten flour?

[@aureliedubois2605]

Oh no, so you can’t wash VWG? I’ve tried the regular method for this and I never like it. I wanted to wash it but I guess you can’t??? Omg and I just got a big bag of VWG too 😭

[@healthyauthentic7453]

ohhh... so I totally thought WTF stood for something other than wash the flour.

[@HugginsAmy-d3h]

Taylor Kimberly Wilson Margaret Davis Timothy

[@mattdonalds9996]

I mill my own flour from red wheat berries. If you want to save money that's the way to go. 😉 So basically if you make your food from scratch like I do this video is useless. 👎

[@BoldFlavorVegan]

Wow - do you have videos of your rig? Would love to see that operation!

[@mattdonalds9996]

@@BoldFlavorVegan I just use a Wonder Mill, got it from Amazon. Plug it in, I usually select pastry grind, and turn it on. Sounds like a saw. Pour in red wheat berries I also get from Amazon in 25 lb. bulk buckets and freeze, and let it do its thing. I use the flour to make my own bread, pasta and breadcrumbs. The bread is a lot denser than store-bought. But if you don't eat it within a week it spoils, so after a few days if I still have some left, I toast it, throw it in a food processor and crunch it up then freeze it. Later when all the moisture has left, I throw the crumbs into a blender and make fine breadcrumbs which I then refreeze. I've always been about making food from scratch as far as from seed to table. You really do taste a difference compared to anything you'll find eating out or buying at a store. My mill along with my instapot and food processor are some of my proudest kitchen stuffs. My other favorite is called an Almond Cow which you need to check out when you can, if you have not already. As a side note, if you're really into sustainable living, you should look into earthship homes. 🙂