What's wrong with Unreal Engine? / DirectX12 and shader compilation issue

[@Moshugaani]

I'd rather take longer loading times with shader compilation happening before gameplay, than stutter during gameplay! Shader compilation stutter absolutely ruins a first gameplay experience.

[@Fucklesticks]

But oblivious and lazy devs can't be bothered

[@BlindBison]

Sadly it’s not even just Shader Comp stutter that’s become commonplace for PC ports. Many games also have genuine asset streaming or camera animation stutter as well. Stutter in general has become an awful problem that needs to get squashed. Sadly it seems publishers, devs, and/or the engine maker themselves (EPIC in this case) don’t really care. Feelsbadman

[@BlindBison]

@dj Kplus I have a 5800X and Digital Foundry, one of the most reputable outlets around, has used a 12900K to test UE4 stutter. Some people simply aren't very sensitive to the behavior.

[@theanimerapper6351]

@dj Kplus no you can't brute force it. And it's not because digital foundry said so. Go watch their sack boy video, they literally show performance metrics. You can't deny numbers

[@theanimerapper6351]

@dj Kplus props to you for actually being fair and checking it out yourself. Very rare that we find people like you in the KZbin comment section lol. Sorry if my comment came off as a little rude. But yea we're in the same boat in hoping that devs start optimizing their games better going into the future. Ue 5.1 should make things easier on them

[@chillhour6155]

@@publicastrations pretty shit engineering if you dont just need a high end GPU but also a high end CPU because the engine can't scale performance for shit

[@robertsharp6072]

the stutter I see in most UE games does NOT get better the second time I run through the same area. for example I can run through the same area in Jedi Fallen Order over and over and the stutters happen in the exact same spots. and it is NOT just loading areas as many will say as these stutters may only be seconds apart. SW Jedi Fallen Order, The Observer, The Sinking City, The Outer Worlds and most other UE games no matter what DX version have some stutter that cannot be avoided. in some cases it is random but in some other cases all the stutters are easily reproducible in the same spots. heck even the original Outlast on UE 3 has drops for no reason it seems.

[@rodrigobasoaltoc.1743]

Since ue3 this engine has always been very stuttery.

[@3monsterbeast]

That is because it is a traversal stutter. As the game's assets are being loaded in, it is taking very long to output the number of frames your monitor is asking for, if you lower the framerate to 30 fps, it won't have traversal stutter, but then again, it's 30 fps....

[@HiteshKumar-bp8tf]

Finally someone who made a video about this Issue epic should work on this issue look at re engine it works well from start throughout to ending doesn’t matter what’s happening on the screen

[@HardwareLab]

Well, I am not sure, but I think shader compilation was the issue for RE2 remake where DX12 appears firstly. And the performance wasn’t that good on many GPUs. But, for example, in DMC5 everything is fine. I would say better example of perfect DX12 usage is rebellion with their Asura engine and Sniper Elite 4 and 5. Or a Tomb Raider series with Foundation engine

[@evilpotatoman9436]

As an unreal dev, I am contemplating making every object in the game load on the screen before the player loads in, it works but implementing it for every object will give me cancer.

[@hamsterultraviolence6723]

>Unreal Engine logo >Crysis Remastered on the background xd

[@doltBmB]

Shaders have always needed to be compiled since they were introduced to realtime graphics in dx8 (2000). But stuttering from it is a new problem. Why? Low level API's like Vulkan and DX12. In the old dx/gl runtimes this stuff was handled automatically by the driver, and the driver was of course optimized to give a smooth experience back then. Now developers have to make their own solutions from scratch, and the simplest way leads to stuttering. Consoles don't have the problem since all consoles have the same gpu you can pre-compile the shaders. PC gamers are second-rate citizens in the gaming world. When a developer uses an off-the-shelf game engine like unreal, they shift the responsibility onto the engine, and don't expect that there is something wrong with the engine by default, so they just leave it, since the console certification passed they don't care anymore.

[@HardwareLab]

Very useful comment, fully agree

[@GemayelDaniel]

i read this a lot of times but what i don't understand is why doesn't dx12 have an option to handle optimization like dx11 does, if the dev doesn't want to code it manually ?

[@KayX291]

From what i gather, Vulkan has introduced a new extension called Graphics Pipeline Library which helps out with the shader stutters and as far as i know once its in the graphics driver then all games that support Vulkan benefits from it.

[@doltBmB]

@@KayX291 If it's an extension then it will still need to be called by the app, so old games still won't benefit.

[@InnerFury666]

it shall be noted that shader compilation stutter can also occur in dx11 as with chernobylite as shown in the video and shadow warrior 3, its not api bound for anyone confused by the videos dx12 focus. otherwise, thanks for making people aware #stutterstruggle

[@HardwareLab]

It is just way more common to see that on DX12. DX11 in Chernobolyte runs just perfect compare to that and there are a lot of games where DX11 solves the problem (for example Final Fantasy 7 Remake)

[@bigboulder]

@@HardwareLab Nah Shadow Warrior 3, Kena Bridge of spirits, Sifu , Stray and The Ascent in Dx11 all have the same shader comp stutters. And most of them are native Dx11 only titles! Its the engines fault by now i think. Even digital foundry pointed this out many times now.

[@HardwareLab]

@@bigboulder it’s more common in the other engines as well in dx12 and vkn. However, it’s a good point, dx11 can have same stuff often as well

[@snchez2106]

@@HardwareLab No, that's not true, FF7 : Remake on dx11 still stutters horribly, only dxvk-async stops the stuttering.

[@ostrava4186]

Callisto Protocol is a great example of your video....

[@HardwareLab]

There’s a new patch came out. Should work better now

[@MTaye7]

Found out that the shader compilation stutter fix for Stray is the same as with It Takes Two and only works with the DX11 version of the game. Step 1. Open c:\Users\\AppData\Local\Hk_project\Saved\Config\WindowsNoEditor\Engine.ini with a text editor and add the following lines: [/Script/Engine.RendererSettings] r.CreateShadersOnLoad=1 Step 2. Use the command line argument -dx11 when running the game executable or, better yet, create a shortcut. Example: \Hk_project\Binaries\Win64\Stray-Win64-Shipping.exe -dx11 Congrats, no stutters. Step 1 might not be necessary for this game, but it's absolutely necessary for It takes Two. If you wanna be sure the first time, do both steps. You can also clear the NVidia DXCache folder if you want to be extra sure it works: c:\Users\\AppData\Local\NVIDIA\DXCache

[@PHOBIAx57x]

Will this work for Fallen Order? I never finished that game because the stutter bothered me so much!

[@PHOBIAx57x]

@@InnerFury666 Will this fix Fallen Order at all?

[@MTaye7]

​@@PHOBIAx57x Well, it will fix the shader compilation stutter issue, but it won't fix the loading game assets while playing issue. For instance, in the beginning cutscene when a droid appears and hits a flying vehicle, there's always a stutter, no matter what you do. It's not shaders being compiled, but rather the world being loaded aggressively, causing that lag spike. So yeah, the game has this loading assets stutter issue.

[@Tbjbu2]

which asset pack is used at the start of the video?

[@sokol5805]

Great video. I hope they fix this many devs are dropping thier in house engine for UE5.

[@aaaaaaaaau]

great channel discovered

[@tcchip]

Jedi: Fallen Order on PC was a miserable experience for me because of the repeated stuttering, no matter what settings I used. The game had no problem running at 60fps maxed out, but the constant stuttering was ruining my experience. I wanted to do a completionist run but ultimately I just uninstalled it as soon as I finished the story.

[@couchpotato9268]

Nothing change about unreal engine. Unless steam implements shader cache like they do on steam deck most unreal engine games will have shader stutter. The Callisto Protocol is a good example.

[@doomslayer8985]

Yeah that's actually a new example why

[@doomslayer8985]

Also good to note I play Kena bridge of spirits (uses UE4) and deal with the same issue that shaders aren't compiled and causes so many stutters, i have cyberpunk 2077, resident evil 3, Nier Automata (all of them use different engines) and they run perfect. I bet is an engine problem at this point

[@couchpotato9268]

@@doomslayer8985 Yeah I played DMC 5 it looks so good. On my PC I can play it locked 120 ultra at 4K and it look better than most Unreal Engine games. Unreal engine 5 doesn't give me much hope since it's super heavily single threaded.

[@couchpotato9268]

@@doomslayer8985 There might be a FIX! So borderlands 3 would stutter like crazy for me even on my 13700k at 5.6Ghz. I tried all the typical solutions until my last attempt worked. You have to disable control flow guard in windows! Disable it per game only. Search Exploit Protection and than find your game .exe and add. Than disable control flow guard for that app. Let me know if this fixes Kena Bride of Spirits. Do this at your own risk since its a safety feature Microsoft uses.

[@n1lknarf]

Is there no setting to enforce compiling on game started before loading any level? I think most prefer to wait 5 minutes than getting consistent frame drop during gameplay.

[@HardwareLab]

It’ll be 5 min before the whole game in most cases, not before the level 🗿 I guess there’s just not enough documentation on that subject

[@Ssquire11]

I'm glad others notice how bad stuttering has gotten. It's like trying to watch a movie on bluray with a scratched disk. We shouldn't have to play games that are broken and immerision breaking every 5 seconds. I hope it gets fiixed in the near future.

[@AdamKiraly_3d]

Using the PSO cache should be mandatory for any unreal game using dx12, but a lot of people apparently do know about it.

[@vegitoblue2187]

Poor docs plus its impractical for pc considering the hardware diversity vs console

[@dangir1783]

I've always wondered why it's not possible to download the already compiled shaders of a user who finished the game?and it has the same gpu and video driver as me

[@aaaaaaaaau]

maybe steam will do this

[@snowwsquire]

@@aaaaaaaaau steam can’t, nvidia & amd have to. unless you want steam to put a another layer between your gpu and your game

[@timothykirby4406]

The shaders are unique to your specific set up and perhaps other variables.

[@withmygoodeyeclosed]

Dead Space 2023 is also riddled with stutters, on both PC and console. It really breaks the immersion :(. Not sure if it's the shaders in this game though, it does an optimization at first run. But the framegraph can look similar as to what you showed here happening to UE games.

[@HardwareLab]

If stutters are happening on first run but not happening on the second it is likely to be a shader compilation

[@BigChiken44]

Because you have to do PSO Caching for your game before deployment. Those things usually don't happen on Playstation/xbox games because developers do PSO caching. But with all possible settings for PC it's more possible PSO to cache. It has nothing to do with Unreal Engine, that's how DirectX12/Vulcan works. But newer versions of UE5 have automatic PSO caching - not sure how it works.

[@Savagesoldier92]

I agree 100 percent.

[@connorjade5460]

Is this issue available in cry engine too?

[@dollabexgamed3]

Thanks my guy

[@ledooni]

Came here because it‘s horrible in Stray as well. Despite my PC being able to handle 4k 120 fps otherwise I returned the game and play the 60 fps PS5 version instead. Any idea how they‘re doing it that those issues are not at all present on console?

[@HardwareLab]

Consoles have a pre-compiled shaders for all of the games since there is no different hardware configurations. It is impossible to pre-compile these shaders for pc since it is required to compile for each new hardware configuration. The solution here is pre-compiling shaders with loading screen before first run of the game. For example it works like that in Forza Horizon 5. So it is more about developers that do not pay attention to pc versions of the games

[@HardwareLab]

However, try to search if it’s possible to activate DX11 in that game somehow. Probably it will fix the issue

[@biglittleboy9827]

@@HardwareLab And that's the reason why i crack all games who have stutter or framerate problems on PC. Fuck devs who do not pay attention to PC versions. We are not cows.

[@MTaye7]

Check my other comment here about the fix for Stray.

[@chillhour6155]

Unreal engine is an SDK made for consoles first and foremost, PC gamers who can't brutforce it with high end systems..well you're just shit out of luck running anything with that logo on it

[@lorenzogarbin8990]

They said 5.4 will improve Pso Caching... crossed fingers

[@boobcchi]

In final fantasy 7 remake there is guide how turn on Vulkan instead dx12, it's really help. But this solution exist in not so many games((

[@HardwareLab]

DX11, not vulkan

[@boobcchi]

@@HardwareLab no, vulkan (in config I write dx11, but with some files it run on vulkan)

[@HardwareLab]

@@boobcchi sounds nice

[@JacoB-wp4ws]

i hope final fantasy 7 rebirth on pc will use async shader comp

[@Axophyse]

I don't know how long this issue has been but what bothers me the most is no one ever managed to fix this issue? Like someone could've made a simple game in Unreal Engine and try to fix this "Shader Compilation Issues". It's not going to be simple but it will show that it's doable.

[@HardwareLab]

It is doable, there are games that precompile everything (for example Callisto Protocol after patch or Gears 5). The problem is documentation, that doesn’t cover the pre-compilation process. For some big studios it is possible to hire low level devs that can help with it, but for smaller game studios - it isn’t, they can only rely on documentation. At least this is how I understand the problem

[@MorningstarJinn]

Whole reason i switched back to console gaming.

[@animetexture7564]

In Nutshell Engine Become too big to write documentation.

[@Nytevizion]

Yeah, just go ahead and pre play the game so you can enjoy it properly the second time around.

[@AndersHolst]

Is this what happens in EA WRC 2023...?

[@HardwareLab]

Ye, most likely. If you want to be sure, try to recreate the same game two times (or how the locations work there i dunno), if the freezes are gone for the second run - it’s most likely to be a shader compilation issue

[@stasyanje]

Thank you for the video, please don't put background music next time.

[@toshiro3040]

Just built a 6k gaming pc ,7900xtx,7950x,ddr5 32gb etc. I am astonished how many of these games still run like absolute dog shit.The stutter in Darktide is bullshit. I won’t even bother play anymore if a game stutters too much.

[@iwillnoteatzebugs]

Unreal engine 4 was a mistake

[@spyro440]

Now 5.1 has been released and there is no word on this anymore...?

[@doomslayer8985]

Fortnite uses UE5 and doesn't has these type of issues unlike the other games using UE4 which all of them (kena, tower of fantasy, final fantasy 7, star wars Jedi, etc) have all the same issues.

[@Kian_Farasat]

@@doomslayer8985 fortnite has this issue right now on dx 12

[@PHOBIAx57x]

@@doomslayer8985 Nope, it’s still a problem in Fornite 5.1. Check it out 26:40 kzbin.info/www/bejne/hWeqdGuKj8d9o6s

[@PHOBIAx57x]

26:40 kzbin.info/www/bejne/hWeqdGuKj8d9o6s Still an issue in UE5.1 sadly 😵‍💫

[@od13166]

HI FI RUSH running on unreal and forced dx12 game but well optimized its rare example but fact that japanese dev made it

[@nizarkhaled]

I am looking to sell my pc because of this. I have ryzen 5 2600 and rx580 8gb gpu and cannot play warzone 2.0 due stuttering my fps not stable and jump from 30 to 50 to 1 fps within secondes. The gpu utilisation swing from 0 % to 90% and back to 0% same in micro seconds.

[@TheCgOrion]

Newsflash Devs. People that have a GPU that cost 2X a console or more, with the rest of the hardware to match, shouldn't have to brute force attempt to make your game a tolerable experience.

[@KAjo07]

I stopped playing a lot of games because of this annoying stutter I just CANNOT stand it

[@Ssquire11]

I feel you man. I'm in the same boat. Stutters really get to me too.

[@deepelements]

There's nothing wrong with Unreal if you know what you are doing. Most people don't.

[@HardwareLab]

If most people are using software “wrong” then there is something wrong with software or manuals

[@dareczek2974]

I think it's time to abandon PC gaming and switch to a console, e.g. PS5

[@LargeBoyLuke]

There is a reason I never play fortnite, it’s so fucking awful doesn’t play at all.

[@amurysmatos2874]

buy a ps5 is better and no problems. now days almost every new pc games coming out are stuttering mess when playing over 60 fps!

[@HardwareLab]

And pay 50£ for games while playing only on mid-range gpu (so settings are far from ultra) without even a gamepass + missing Forza, MFS, Gears and even Starfield 👍

[@smwfreak1647]

yea im gonna downgrade from my pc to a ps5 where ill have to pay every month/year for a subscription to play games online that are supposed to be online for FREE yea no thanks bro along with not being able to do other stuff like produce music use photoshop and play any and every game i want.