What they don't tell you about Post Docs [Make them work for you]

In this video I share with you the truth about doing a postDoc and whether or not a postdoc is a good thing to do after your PhD. It can be - but with some careful planning.
Paper mentioned: www.science.org/doi/10.1126/s...
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▼ ▽ TIMESTAMPS
0:00 - PostDoc treadmill
4:86 - Escaping
6:23 - Payment
8:14 - A make or break moment
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[@nrk260717]

No reward system for post docs, no money, no life, everyday stress about future, family.

[@kevyelyod1211]

Normal life outside of postdocs have all these issues too.

[@Lilliana1]

@@kevyelyod1211 unless you got a 12 hour job or something (per day) I don't see it being worse than post doc

[@Lavabug]

@@kevyelyod1211 Not really. Every PhD that left for industry I know has more money, more free time to travel and raise a family. Every postdoc I know is broke living like a grad student in their late 30's.

[@sheldoncooper0]

@@kevyelyod1211 Except they get paid 3X the salary lol.

[@alicewyan]

I left academia (particle physics) over 10 years ago, but back then it was already assumed that one did several rounds of postdocs (each 2-3 years long) before even having a chance to be considered for a permanent position. Only doing one was definitely uncommon.

[@puffthemagiclepton7534]

This is still the case. :(

[@ellielikesmath]

i did my thesis on the physics this user did their particle physics work on. i am now on my second postdoc, and im looking to get out of academia. the cycle continues! comment below if you're the next iteration.

[@tfoxrutherford]

I'm a soon to retire professor of economics/engineering. I do my own programming, and I write my own papers. I've had several post-docs over my career. I've never tried to get them to do my research. I tell them that their job is to get a job by publishing in good journals. I've always had the expectation that they submit three papers to refereed journals from their dissertation in the first year of employment and find at least one new research idea. I encourage them to attend seminars and sit in on PhD classes. I've been able to publish a few papers with post-docs over the years, but I have always been careful to approach these as coauthors. I've always felt that I my primary obligation to my PhD students, and the post-doc have to operate independently. Furthermore, if a post-doc is unable to land an academic appointment in 18 months, I begin having conversations about their other options. The academic market is fickle, and sometimes it just happens that a good match does not materialize.

[@zarathustra498]

Guys, don't do postdoc at all, it is a race to the bottom and there is no winner. I moved to industry, the work is more chill and enjoyable, the work contract is stable and got 3x salary...

[@rufusgoldstein2655]

My friend's sister is a biomedical engineering post doc in cardiac device research. Her younger brother joined the navy at 18 training as hospital corpsman after basic. He went to "c" school for biomedical equipment technician. He received college credits & tution toward his associate's in biomedical equipment technology. After leaving the Navy , he went to work as a field service engineer for GE. His company paid for further certifications in cardiac equipment. & healthcare tech mgnt. Now he's a clinical engineer making more than his sister with all his training paid for while she's heavily in debt. 😮😮

[@radnukespeoplesminds]

I have a bachelors in biomedical engineering. Its a hard degree to make work.

[@jerrykim9497]

Thank u andy. I will graduate my PhD next month. You just save me. I will go industry sector

[@dandellionsy6537]

Hi, am a bit clueless when people talk about industry sector, I know this is not academia, but what kind of jobs in the industry which accept phd? Aren't they expecting you to do research too since you own a phd? *this is a generic question because I am thinking to apply for it or search for it if possible

[@jerrykim9497]

@@dandellionsy6537 yeah u right. If a company really want to hire u. That means they want apply your research in their business. So of course they will ask u to do new research. My case is a startup tech company. And i work as a data scitientist. Hope my answer will help u. If u go phd and finally go industry, u should find some company that doing research. They do research because they can be funded.

[@jessicabesaw2649]

Amazing video Andy. I would really love to see more videos about post doc issues, much like the ones you've done for PhD issues!

[@Katadori09]

I would say there are a few reasons to do a postdoc. 1. To attach a brand to your pedigree. You will get more and better interviews if there's a top-5 name on your CV. A postdoc is a good way to get that connection, especially if you haven't from your graduate program. I realize this is distasteful to say, but let's face it. It's just the way things work, especially in academia. 2. To gain access to your PI's network. That may mean either through a letter of recommendation, or through personal connections she has. Whereas your PI may have only limited oomph to get you a job in academia, because that's just a battered job search landscape in any case, depending on her connections she could actually get your foot into the door quite readily in government or industry. 3. To pick up skills. This is the most "legitimate" reason to explain why we wanted to do a postdoc in polite company. There's often some truth to it. But let's face it, #1 and #2 are probably above this in the priority list, though that should remain unspoken. 4. To change or hybridize fields. This is a niche case, but it's of interest to some people. 5. To fulfill a requirement, usually for academia, that the applicant have "some postdoc experience" before applying for a tenure track position. If this is your only reason for doing the postdoc, though, then you probably haven't thought hard enough about what else you could get out of it (see above). I'd suggest to anyone trying to decide whether to do a postdoc, if your reason for doing it isn't on this list, then you should probably ask yourself if you even want to do a postdoc. I'm not saying my list is perfect, and something could easily have been left out. But at least ask yourself that question. Some reasons that are particularly bad to get into a postdoc: 1. To figure out what you want to do with the rest of your life. If you aren't already sure you want to do something that requires postdoctoral experience, it's a really bad idea to "hang out" in a postdoc position until you decide that you do want it. The reason is that, after a few years as a postdoc, it becomes a strike against you in the academic job market. If you're competing with 500 other applicants for 30 positions, that strike can be all it takes to kill your chances. Only enter the postdoc when you are absolutely sure what you want to do with it, and then use the time efficiently. 2. To take a breather to start a family. Okay, this is another difficult topic to even discuss in polite company, but a very necessary one since the postdoc usually falls smack-dab in the prime child-bearing years. Shamefully, the "correct time" to have a family is effectively "never" for an academic. That doesn't mean don't have kids, but it does mean have them eyes wide open to the potential career risks, and plan accordingly. Personally, my wife and I wanted kids, and had them during my postdoc, and we are 100% glad we did. But it made the career path more interesting, even though we happened to luck out and it all worked out in the end. To be clear, if choosing between my dream career and my children, I'd choose my children without a second thought. I am absolutely not saying otherwise. But our plan was based on faulty notions, and even worse, the kind that no one talks about in polite company and hence you will never realize until you experience it. Our plan could have been more efficient if we knew then what we know now. To me in those days, a postdoc seemed like a loophole in the academic system of constant, strict timelines and requirements. You're not a student, you're not faculty, you're just attached to some lab for an unknowable amount of time without a Qual schedule, coursework, or a Defense schedule hanging over your head. So the temptation, at least for us, was to use this time to "get childbirth out of the way." Except, the problem is, there still is a clock hanging over your head. Postdocs are fruit that rot on the vine. If you intend to have children, then please do. Don't let your job stop you, because there will never be an opportune time, and there's a deadline. You have to jump in and accept that the opportunity costs are worth it. I know people who were waiting for the "right moment," and it never came. Now it's too late, and that's an aspect of their life they can never get back. Your job will never give you permission in most fields, not just science, and in the end you need to give yourself permission and then fight for it. But don't expect the postdoc clock to freeze in time while you do, is all I'm saying. Know that there's a clock over your head, with your future career at stake, and plan accordingly. And one more thing: I'm male. I can't possibly speak for how much harder this topic is for female postdocs, but I can imagine it would be way more difficult. If I could do it again, I would have asked my parents to come help (despite living hundreds of miles away) and stay for awhile. We (especially my wife) ended up doing everything ourselves, for the most part, in relative isolation. It was a strain, and it was unnecessary and difficult at the time. Years later my mom told me that she really wanted to come help, but didn't want to impose and was waiting for us to reach out to her first. Sometimes opportunities like this are lying right under your nose, in plain sight yet invisible. Nowadays, I wish she could have had more time with the grandkids while they were still babies, and it's a regret that we didn't think of it at the time. Whereas I didn't want to impose on my parents by asking them to fly hundreds of miles and take time off work, really they were hoping that we would request them to do it but didn't want to take the initiative at the risk of interfering with our lives when we were already so exhausted. 3. To keep applying for academic positions well past reason. Your chances diminish the longer you wait, as I've mentioned, but another aspect of this is there are other entry points into an academic position. For example, you can transition to a government job and then apply under the title of Staff Scientist or similar, instead of as an elderly postdoc. Even if you don't ever land an academic job offer (which is the case for most people), at least in that case you're getting paid a real salary and have a real career path. It's more rare, but there are even success stories of people who have gone into industry, continued to publish, and then transitioned back to academia. You could also choose to abandon the idea of getting a position at the Asst. Prof. level, and plot a course where you could develop your CV enough to apply directly for an Assoc. Prof. level position. These are all alternatives to spending an extra long time as a postdoc, with its poor pay, limited personal developmental potential beyond the first couple years, and constant job insecurity. 4. To get a teaching position with no research component. I've seen plenty of examples where positions like these could be obtained immediately out of the PhD program without any postdoctoral experience, though in these cases the applicants had already known that this was their aspiration and generated quite a bit of teaching experience even while they were graduate students.

[@DrJ_Kairos]

Your comment is very insightful!!

[@philshoward9340]

Thanks for this video I feel I knew this but you articulated it really well.

[@RachelRoseEstrebilla]

Thank you for sharing this invaluable information

[@karinwiebe1321]

Thank you. I appreciate that you have demystified it a bit for me.

[@antonventer8532]

I am looking at doing a post doc next year. Thanks for this!

[@petarjovanovic1481]

Postdoc "salary". In many places status of postdocs is still a "student" and you get a scholarship from the university, no employment contract. This is my status.

[@nonee915]

Knowing this i opt for industry straight after my phd now

[@JyotiDeka1989]

How did you do that??

[@PZJBimha]

Thanks for sharing 🙏🏽

[@os2171]

Man I got a BS, 2 MSc several research positions and I’m finishing my PhD …. And now hearing that a Postdoc is even worse… I’m seriously considering quitting…. The problem is I’m not a quitter…

[@tombarnes1871]

Well done!!

[@erickamombo1050]

you are a very intelligent young man

[@willian1917]

I know people that were postdocs for more than 12 years before they gave up academia

[@sirmclovin9184]

I watched this video yesterday, but woke up with a sour feeling about it. Basically, this video says "Yes, succumb to the exploitation and hope that it will be enough to get you a professorship one day (where you still have to earn tenure)." I think with the University of California strike we have seen that collective solutions are not beyond reach, so why do we keep parroting individual (non-)solutions as the only option?

[@jithinsunny1323]

My message to all the future post docs. You will come across lots of videos and similar opinions. But at the end of the day everything depends on your effort and vision. I know several people who have converted thier post docs into successful careers in R&D, startups, academics, etc. Do not pay attention to anything negative. Stick to your plan and life will open doors even you wouldn't have imagined. All the best.

[@paolomartizzi164]

I did a post-doc for 2 years and realized academic career was not for me from family and health point of view. But the things I learned brought me to land a job in R&D. I guess the important thing is to develop skills as much as possible, and keep open all roads.

[@carti8778]

Not necessarily because you might only see those who have converted.

[@sunway1374]

Some people don't have a plan. Or they naively think the academic world has a plan for them. So they stay as postdocs, in various guises, for a long time. You can't be a postdoc until you retire. So better leave academia sooner than later. I would say 5 to 7 years after your phd, if you still don't have a permanent position in the academia, GET OUT QUICK!

[@karinwiebe1321]

Thank you.

[@kdspuh]

You’re not wrong, you can totally leverage a post doc into something better. That said, for every person who does that, there’s a 39 year old making 40k a year as a line item on an R01 deluding themselves into thinking the payoff is finally going to be there at the end of their next three year contract on the opposite side of the country.

[@jc-tu6pg]

bro, a part of me wants you to get more popular, but another part of me doesn't (bc your content is my secret weapon)

[@HaydenHatTrick]

Thankyou. The postdoc has always been something I've observed but couldn't understand the purpose of, other than it just being the next stage beyond a PhD. I'd actually be interested to know more about the world of postdocs.

[@pedrohenriqueviadanna8918]

Great video. As a postdoc in Florida I can say that the salary is between 50 to 60 k. More than 60k is for senior postdocs (people with technical skills better than the PI, but are not working as professors). I am in the postdoc treadmill… very hard to get out

[@emelianderson7748]

Thanks for this video. What if you want to do a postdoc for additional methodological training before leaving academia? My longterm goal is to work or start an NGO.

[@Crispercas9]

You are so damn right :)

[@strayorion2031]

I also think that post-doc being too short can be bad, If you sign a contract for 3 years, you have 1 year to finish what you were doing before de postdoc, and 1 year to start looking where are you going next, so in a 3 year postdoc you only have 1 year to actually work on projects and publish as much as you can

[@CatharticOutlet]

I'm definitely not sticking around to do a post doc, it's such a thankless job... Unfortunately, getting an industry job in my sector is a lot harder than finding a post doc position but I am determined to escape.

[@alessiafaggian999]

in Italy there is a law according to which you could NOT do more than 6 (some universities 4) years of PhD Six\four years as total sum of all positions as post doc After that you should be out, but.... atipical and "creative" contracts are born Government is discussing about that, honestly, I have not a big hope

[@Alhamzah_F_Abbas]

Informative video thank you Andy. For junior scholars who just finished their PhD, which is better for them apply for a postdoc or apply for a position as one of the staff in a university? Your feedback will be much appreciated.

[@sirmclovin9184]

Staff as what? Ask your PhD supervisor.

[@kimhisham6033]

Both are brilliant

[@kuoliu1978]

A eleven-year postdoc just posted a message here...

[@shivani_demarco]

To get out of postdoc treadmill, you said to get papers and grant... but let me tell you some supervisor are more smart they don't let you publish for years (4-5), keep things on hold, so you cannot escape this treadmill. And without publication you don't get grant, and at the end you are stuck.

[@jonminton3574]

After years in the postdoc treadmill, I started to see it like the work of the 'assistants' in a stage magic show. (See, e.g. The Masked Magician/Magic's Greatest Secrets Revealed, from the late 1990s and early 2000s.) For each of these stage tricks there's a 'magician' who takes centre stage and manages to convince the audience (historically) he's got special abilities. But in practice all he does is distract the audience while the 'assistants' do all the work, hiding away in the shadows, squeezing and sequestering themselves in awkward positions before scrambling at a moment's notice into yet another awkward position. In practice, this means the assistants tend to be more skilled at performing the tricks, and the magician the least skilled amongst the troop. But it's the magician who gets the glory and adulation, not the assistants. The role of the assistants is to make the magician look good. (And ideally look pretty, or at least inconspicuous, while doing so.) (The analogy doesn't work with close-up magic, as that requires genuine embodied knowledge from the magician requiring hundreds of hours of practice. But for stage magic the analogy seemed to fit fairly well.)

[@lifeisfun_28]

@andystapleton I just found your channel and love it. I have been a HS science teacher for 20 years and want to go back to school to pursue a Ph.D. and am interested in what fields do you see emerging that will be in demand, especially within the constructs of advanced AI, social media, and how that is meshing all together leaving a lot of teens and adults depressed, etc.

[@wenjin9660]

Thank you Andy. I am currently a postdoc (the 2nd year). What do you think about the pros and cons of going to the industry compared to staying in academia? What would be the biggest challenge(s) of going to the industry? (my worries are less flexible, less stable, and sophisticated inter-personal relationships) Thank you!

[@anusuyaanu2491]

I am also wish to do pdf in India. I don't know what are norms I follow to apply pdf. kindly can you tell the norms to apply pdf. And which university you are?

[@carti8778]

one of the biggest myths

[@carti8778]

@@anusuyaanu2491 don;t do postdoc in india, they pay shit.

[@anusuyaanu2491]

@@carti8778 you may be right, I am from south India. I don't know what is the present situation of postdoc in India. But, I wish doing in reputed university for well exposure and developing knowledge. where I do postdoc? I does not have any idea. Actually, I am not sound in finance. That's why I think to do North India. Because, here educational system is very poor. Majority of the people well educated, but they does not have ability to handle interview well. Like that lot of lack of knowledge among educated people here. So, I think to do in North India.

[@carti8778]

@@anusuyaanu2491 don't do a postdoc at all irrespective of the region. I just finished my phd last week and looking for jobs fulltime, didn't apply for a postdoc at all.

[@ameerracle]

I'd be curious about entrepreneurial post doc work.

[@wajidrafique9284]

You will be amazed to see how much postdocs are paid in Canada.

[@thedoggedscientist]

I am interested to know

[@kasiatutak5240]

It is all VERY true what you are saying. No doubts, I just wonder what to do with phd title after so many years of extensive training in STEM to finally be rewarded with money and respect I believe I deserve. I think I would have to go to industry whereas I always dreamed of academic career and I did everything to follow that path…That is just sad. Please send me some nice words to cheer me up :D Best wishes Andy!

[@mauri1996fs]

sending you some nice words to cheer you up with this comment! I can't think of anything specific, but I hope you'll find a job you like and are going to get paid as you think you deserve. All the best!

[@kasiatutak5240]

@@mauri1996fs thanks! :)

[@tahsinrahman8532]

Cheer up: (1) lower your expectations of how other people should view you: others have gone through many challenges in their lives and careers just as you have in yours; (2) have the mindset that you will continue to learn and develop yourself: the PhD is just a step on that journey; (3) look for an industry position: people in those positions impact their field through meaningful work far more than an academic can hope to, especially in STEM; (4) you do not know which of the things you develop is the one that will change the world: many individuals have done so in the past, often single-handedly, and they are humans just like you are.

[@sunway1374]

Start applying to jobs outside academia. Send hundreds of them. Make applying to jobs a fulltime job itself. Surely you will get a few offers you like.

[@GadgetMuhsin5000]

I'm thinking of doing a PhD and apart from my interest in research everything else tells me it's a bad idea. Hope you get into a good position. Best wishes!

[@kanalprobny1927]

Bro, the link to the Science article does not work

[@kevyelyod1211]

that was a great video. I wonder is there research on PhD's/PostDocs starting Spinout companies? There is big pressure on UK universities with Physics Departments to commercialise more of their findings. But the academics are not interested in researching "product solutions". Why is this? And the research I looked at for my own country shows that most spin-outs fail, and I reckon this is because PhD's and post-docs do not make for good hard-nosed business men, do you agree? There are lots of video creation ideas around the area of commercialising reseach including its pitfalls. You could even start interviewing people who have started a spin-out.

[@sirmclovin9184]

Doing the science is one thing, running a business another. That being said, if industry wants people to do industry research, they should give them industry positions.

[@gsubashika]

Do we have enough positions for excellent researchers with more than a decade experience?? The system should create independent scientist positions, where researchers can use common research space to pursue their project grants. Now labs are quite territorial with physical and mental borders... You got to belong to a mold of a professor, to apply for a grant... we are generating a whole lot of PhDs while we don't have enough jobs for them. Instead of taking research assistants, we hire PhDs and post-docs to pursue a principal investigator's projects (while raising hopes of an academic career!). But do we have enough academic positions.

[@user-qb7wv6wk5l]

Yes, “premeditated drama type interview” but tried to collect (steal) information in a very careful smart way.

[@seanrequiredfieldcannotbel1362]

The best thing and what I'm most looking forward to, is the ability to work abroad fairly easily. Want to live and work in Brazil? Get a post doc there! Want to live and work in Greenland? Get a post doc there!

[@adithya4993]

Hi Andy... recently defended my thesis...I've got 2 postdoc options in two different places and both positions are directly based on my publications, yet they are quite unrelated to each other, one is based on actuators and other is based on materials that I used to make the actuators, though both are attractive choices, which one could be a good option?!

[@Namerson]

If you have to ask some random youtuber a very vague and ultimately subjective question like that, I fear you might have wasted your time with your PhD

[@adithya4993]

firstly the comment was targeted towards all viewers, someone could offer a suggestion. I would have appreciated a suggestion rather than this absurd comment which is pointless and has no value probably like you

[@Namerson]

@@adithya4993 how on earth could anyone answer such a hyperspecific question? Let alone trying to do so without any details. Jesus wept

[@adithya4993]

@Ben may be u shud have asked for some details before trying to comment on my Ph.D . You expect me to type 100s of words here in the comments section, most ppl won't even read it.

[@Namerson]

@@adithya4993 lol

[@grzegorzach3891]

Postdoc period should primarely serve learning new skills in a new place - skills which would be useful for you or your future employer. If one uses it as a "holding pattern" before landing somewhere and this "holding pattern" lasts more then a year - this person is doing something very wrong, and should seriously rethink his/her strategy.

[@user-qb7wv6wk5l]

Yesterday a stupid sent me email that he wants to take interview after midnight.

[@cryora]

What about scientists at national labs? Are they considered part of academia, or are they something else?

[@kimhisham6033]

I think its ok if you go for your first ever postdoct position somewhere in a high income country. But if you do it many times over again in your own local country. You just get busted 😂 always find a permanent job quickly to secure your future

[@datagus]

Bro, I can’t even get a post doc position :(

[@riccardo-964]

Sometimes you're not allowed to apply for grants *because* you're a postdoc...

[@yungthanh]

Who needs tenure when you get ten years post doc experience

[@HimmelReiner]

Lol, how to get in this position first?

[@LittleRedCapBWR]

This whole postdoc system is so trickle-down economy. Why the professors and lecturers have the privilege to monopolize the money application process? Why postdoc can't apply for their own grant directly?

[@chrish8941]

Dunno what an independent academic career is. Too much repetition of the problem, not enough info

[@er00ic]

Postdoc paid me $55k, industry paid me $120k. Easy choice.

[@DiedonD]

Glad I never did Post-Doc!

[@321ekib]

It is because there are too many Ph.D. And they don't have any idea what to do with themselves.

[@worawatsr9803]

I got a tenure track position in a top university right after PhD. Never ever apply for a Postdoc unless you are really desperate.

[@GabrielleduVent]

That's dependent on the field. In my field, you basically have to have a stack of Nature articles by the time you graduate in order to get a tenure track right out the door.

[@jonminton3574]

I think that advice is like saying "score more goals than the other side". Of course it's true, but it's not helpful for the modal PhD, I'd suggest

[@Lavabug]

@@jonminton3574 It's great advice - if you aren't bypassing the postdoc ladder it's probably not gonna happen and you should get out quick. Most postdocs never get a permanent job in the academy.

[@worawatsr9803]

Postdoc is a trap. Just go for full-time faculty position right after your PhD.

[@AnimalLover-dw2wu]

DONT DO A POSTDOC!!! TOTAL WASTE OF TIME. GO SOMEWHERE AND MAKE REAL MONEY. OR -BETTER YET- BE YOUR OWN BOSS!!!

[@strayorion2031]

"be your own boss" completly capitalist propaganda lmao

[@lmnefg121]

even phd life sucks

[@AndreaIdini]

Stay assured, the money is stupidly low even after postdoc. :P

[@mikec5054]

Read a lot of papers then see how worthless they are

[@aselkiesdream]

The best thing to do is write books. I am on my way...